← Bulwark Takes
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- [00:00]
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Nicole Wallace
Hey, we all have our reasons. Don't walk into a surprise if you know you verbo terms apply. See vrbo.com trust for details. Hey, everybody. Tim Miller from the Bulwark. I was over on Ms. Now with my girl Nicole Wallace and also my Bulwark colleague, General Mark Hertling, which was such a treat, and we were talking a bunch about the ongoing Iran negotiations. I got to talk a little bit at the end about Pope Leo, the Bulwark Pope, but much of the focus was on Marco Rubio and his political standing. I even I got the opportunity to woof. I wanted to just actually do the barking noise, woof, woof. But I felt like that was maybe a little much for cable news. Why, might you ask, did I want to bark on cable news? Well, it's because we were talking about how Donald Trump is walking Marco Rubio around like a little puppy. And Marco went out and did a press conference where he talked about how Project Freedom is happening. And then two hours later, Trump's like, no, it's not. And it's just humiliating. And Nicole was like, why does he do it? And I said, because he's on a little leash and he wants to woof for Daddy. So I talked about this a little bit on the show, but it wasn't really the main point since we're talking about Iran. So I'll expand on it some, which is Rubio 2028 and a little teaser. We get into this with Sarah on the focus group this week. Coming up on Saturday, your boys on the focus group. So muck a little alarm button for that. And I just had a little bit of regrets about I'm not going to tell you any more than this, but in the teaser there is a lot of buzz right now for Marco among the bass and my mother even mentioned that. And so I don't know, I got kind of caught up in that moment and I was analyzing that. I had my analyst hat on. But I just fundamentally believe that in the end it ain't going to happen. For Marco, I think that the trust he's building on a trust now, but he still was a neocon before. And the problem is my view and my prediction is the thing that people in the MAGA base will want to move on from whoever the next person is is this war. Whatever that crazy clown show debate stage looks like over on Newsmax in 2028. I do believe that the majority view will be that this was a mistake and that or even if they aren't willing to admit that they'll be saying we're not going to do something like that again might be the way that they do it so they don't hurt Donald Trump's little fifis. And if that's the view among the base that we're not going to do this thing again, like for real this time, like for real zis like we, you guys did it on Iraq and we said we didn't like it and so we went with Trump because he said he was going to do it again and then he did it on Iran. And like we said we didn't like it and so we don't want you to do it again, I think that that is going to be the main posture of the candidates. It's like for realsies this time we're not going to do it. Marco can't do that. Like A, ideologically that's not where he is and B, this is his war. It's his war. Venezuela was his, so is Iran. He's the national security advisor and the secretary of state. He's the one that all of the right wing podcasters are going to blame on this because they can't blame Trump. And as you guys know, my view is that it's just, I think it's going to keep getting worse and worse. The economic fallout of this is going to keep getting worse and worse. People are going to get madder and madder and I don't see an exit for Marco on that. So anyway, this is me countering something that I say in another video that you watch. That's okay. We're all working through this in real time. I'm just trying to give you my real uncut views. So stick around for more on Woof woof Little Marco. General Hertling's also going to provide you, I think, a little more serious analysis in the program. So watch out for that and we'll be back here soon. But by the way, subscribe to the Feeder Somebody just sent me another little chart of, you know, how we're doing compared to the other YouTubes. We're doing pretty good. I appreciate you guys, we're doing pretty good. But there are some dummies in front of us. Like look at some of these dummies. Let me pull this up here. Look at some of these dummies. Who is this? Benny Johnson, Tucker New York Post Stop this. Subscribe to the feed. Tell your friends. See you guys soon.
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Tim Miller
It's been another head spinning day of erratic messaging from the White House and Donald Trump over the war in Iran. Yesterday, Donald Trump's Secretary of Defense, Pete Hegseth confidently claimed that the cease fire quote, certainly holds. Today, Trump is threatening Iran with the possibility of more bombing. Also yesterday, Pete said touted Donald Trump so called Project Freedom. That was an effort to guide stranded vessels through the Strait of Hormuz, which remains closed. Secretary of State Marco Rubio gave a big, long press briefing. Look like he thought he was, I don't know, behind the podium, went on forever. He said all sorts of stuff. Among the things he said, he declared with authority that Project Freedom is the, quote, next stage with Iran because the war itself is actually over. He said that like 90 minutes later, Trump undercut both those men. Donald Trump announced an abrupt end to Project Freedom one day after it started in like two hours after Rubio touted it. We'll deal with what that means or says about them in another segment. But at this hour, Iran is saying that it's looking at a US Proposal to end the war. That's after an Iranian official dismissed a reported proposal as a, quote, list of American wishes. General Hartling. The president abandons it hours later in like a swamp of other posts with memes and ridiculous stuff. In the same, you know, 48 hours, he's posting pictures of himself near naked in a blue AI generated image of himself in the reflecting pool. Like, what is going on? And what do the men and women of the military think is going on?
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General Mark Hertling
Well, we have seen, Nicole, the president in different press conferences, Oval Office visits, reading from documents within his Oval Office with people standing around him as backdrop. And some of that information, most of that information is scattershot. He goes off on different subjects. He riffs on things. But when you're talking about giving direction as the commander in chief to the nation's military, it really is a Rubik's cube of ideas that I would suggest the military personnel, the leaders of the military are trying to figure out, as it's also being transcribed through Secretary Hegseth. So you've got an individual as the commander in chief who is changing his mind on a daily basis and sometimes an hourly basis after his key national security figures. Both the Secretary of Defense and the Secretary of State are saying different things. And I'm sure other national security officials are as confused as both of they are. The CIA director, ODNI Commerce has also been a little bit scattershot in their messaging of this. But again, I'm going back as your military analyst to say, hey, this is putting people who take this seriously. The commanders of centcom, the warships in the gulf, the air wing commanders, the special operations, they're not sure what comes next. Is it a true operation and has the operation been halted because of various congressional demands? Is it a project? And truthfully, I've never heard of something that's a military operation being called a project before that doesn't fit in. And why is it being called that? Is it to avoid scrutiny by the Congress of the United States or is it to confuse the American people? Hell, we're confusing guys like David Rode. You can imagine what the typical civilian at home watching TV or reading the newspaper, trying to figure out the track of these different substances, or are trying to think in terms of are we at war? Are we not at war? Is there movement through the the Strait? Is the oil being lifted, oil embargo being lifted? Are merchant ships flowing again? It is a hodgepodge of actions and it's not the way to conduct operations when you're putting American sons and daughters and their family members in harm's way, when they're thinking about their sons and daughters in harm's way.
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Tim Miller
Tim Miller Marco Rubio has two jobs. He is the country's Secretary of State. He's also Donald Trump's national security adviser. Marco Rubio would like to be set apart from the clown show. He would like to be taken seriously and all things are relative. Maybe some people view him as a part, I don't know. But Marco Rubio is the loser of the day. Marco Rubio stood before at least five, six dozen journalists for an on camera briefing yesterday. He seemed to enjoy it. He, he stayed a long time. He like picked up energy is the question. You saw him going to reporters, you know, more, more quickly and more comfortably. A lot of pointing. He acted and again, I don't know what's in his mind. He acted like he had authority to say the things he said. And it did not take Donald Trump 90 minutes to render him a jackass to go back on what he was sent out there to say, to contradict him and to make a fool of him. Now, no dog in the fight in terms of who takes over maga. But what is Marco Rubio's calculation today? If Trump asks him to go do it again tomorrow, well, he'll do it.
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Nicole Wallace
You know, if Trump asks him, Trump asks him to bark, he's going to woof. That's the deal. And it's humiliating. It's humiliating, but I think he's enjoying it. People can take from that what they want. But I agree with you Nobody believes him. Yeah, I think that because it's such a clown show around him, I think that people in his circle think that. Think him credible. And I know that that seems crazy to us. If you're a journalist that is looking at this or just a viewer, and you're like, the guy went out there and said that we're pushing forward on Project Freedom, and then two hours later we stopped. He has no juice. That's obviously the objective thing. But I think that a lot of people who are either supporters of the war, supporters of Trump, are looking around at the other people in the administration and being like, okay, well, Trump might have pulled the rug out from under this guy, but at least he's borderline competent. And that's why you're getting a lot of buzz for Marco now, being the heir apparent. And I just. I'm a single person. I'm just a pundit. So, you know, mark this down for whatever you want. But I'm against the conventional wisdom on this entirely because this is, I think, not only was this humiliating for Marco in how Trump is treating him, but this is also Marco Rubio's war as much as anybody besides Trump. And. And he has taken ownership of it. He has put himself out there publicly, and the popularity of this war is. Is low right now. And let me tell you, I suspect the popularity is going to be a lot lower on 4th of July when people are having to buy fewer hot dogs or go on fewer road trips because of the cost of everything and how much it's going up, when we're not going to have a very. A solution to the war that's easy to sell, as General Hertling could be able to tell you better than me, so that he's making a bet that being the competent Mr. Fix it for Trump, it's going to pay off for him. I'm glad he's enjoying himself now, because I don't really see it working out for him in the future, but we'll see.
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Tim Miller
It's such a hallmark of what Trump does to men, largely men, but some women, that you can't be more humiliated for them than they are for themselves. So, like, I didn't. Like, you're right. What will he do if he asks him to do it again tomorrow? Do it tomorrow, because, like, if he's not humiliated, we can't expect anything different to happen.
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Nicole Wallace
Iran will also not be able to acquire the enriched uranium that could be used for a bottle. As soon as this deal is implemented, Iran will remove two thirds of its centrifuges and finally, Iran has powerful incentives to keep its commitments. Before getting sanctions relief, Iran has to take significant concrete steps like removing centrifuges and getting rid of its stockpile. If Iran violates the agreement over the next decade, all of the sanctions can snap back into place.
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Tim Miller
That was former President Barack Obama back in 2015 on the actual Iran deal that was made by former President Obama and his administration. We're back with General Hurtling and Tim, Jim Hartling. Some of, of of what I think is going on is Trump thinks that all of this is easy and quick. And I wonder what you make of the sad lesson for our allies and the whole world about all that he's destroyed and how far back he has put us from that moment.
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General Mark Hertling
Well, not only the president, Nicole, but to continue what Tim was saying during the last segment, it's also the Secretary of State. When Secretary Rubio says the kinds of things and then he's undercut by the president, you're talking about him potentially going to allied conferences or partner nations. They know that he's not in the know because he's been undercut so many times and embarrassed. But when you're talking about the kinds of things, even today, the memorandum that allegedly is going to bring about a peace conference between Iran and the United States is a one page document and neither side feels like it does what they want it to do. When you go back and forth, the jcpoa, the last document that President Obama was just talking about in that clip you paid, was 159 pages long with intricate details. And, and it took months to get the thing put together with a whole lot of very intelligent and smart people who had one mind in what their objectives were and President Trump tore it up. We're going to see probably a whole lot of money being given to Iran, which President Trump condemned President Obama for. We're going to see not the kind of nuclear deal that was in the JCPOA. We're going to see a whole lot of ancillary second and third order effects in terms of depletion of US munitions and a long time in the region for 50,000 soldiers and a whole bunch of destroyers and cruisers and aircraft carriers. So our allies around the world are basically saying to themselves, and I'll try and be succinct, what the hell are they doing? I mean, if we can't make sense of it and he is our president, I can't imagine what the Dutch or the Germans or the French are thinking behind closed doors. It's the kind of Diplomacy that just doesn't work. And it isn't normal on the world stage. So that's what I think our allies are thinking. And it's dangerous.
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Tim Miller
Yeah. I mean, Tim, I guess we could just stop to it. It isn't normal. And what becomes excruciating is trying to cover it as normal that America's Secretary of State, who also now for many months, it obviously isn't a temporary arrangement that Rubio is also the national security adviser, goes out before the cameras. It wasn't like an interview he gave to the Atlantic, and he didn't have time to back brief Trump. If Trump is still doing anything, he's watching television. I'm sure he either watched it or knew what Rubio was saying. And if he isn't watching it, then he is like, on his hands and knees actually, like, making the gold pieces or the steps of his new ballroom, because it's not clear that he does anything else but the notion that Marco Rubio could be taken seriously after doing a press conference like that. And then it literally isn't two hours before Trump contradicts him. Like, what is? Who meets with him? Like, with whom do you have any clout?
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Nicole Wallace
And I think this is why a lot of our allies are looking at different ways that they can work with China. Now, you saw a Canada China deal just recently over, you know, something that they wouldn't have done before with regards to automobiles, electric automobiles, going to Canada, because they wouldn't have wanted to anger us. And now they're just like, we can't trust these guys. And moreover, not only because we can't trust these guys, but as General Hurtley is saying, we don't know who to deal with. Even if we did get a deal with them, how could we trust that it would stick? You know, and he mentioned there's a lot of time. As a former Republican, I'll say I'm guilty of this. A lot of times there's, like, mockery of bureaucrats and experts, and sometimes the Democrats have too many meetings. I do think that that's a fair critique. But on a serious document, like a deal, a nuclear deal with Iran, I had friends that were working on that deal. They were legitimate experts. They spent a lot of time going over the details and the particulars. And I think that they really believed this madman theory of politics, that Trump could just act crazy because he is crazy. And they could bully people and maybe bribe people and send in an outer borough real estate deal to. To sign that, to sign a deal with them. And that it would be okay. And they thought that that would work. And I think that we're seeing tragically in disaster for our economy and the whole world. Economy that doesn't work is indeed what
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Tim Miller
we are living through. Lieutenant General Mark Ertling, thank you so much for joining us today. Tim sticks around a little bit longer the spirit of that which is not normal. Donald Trump is locked in a verbal war of aggression with the Pope. And Pope Leo has responded to the latest absurdity from Donald Trump. Donald Trump claiming repeatedly now that the Pope wants Iran to have a nuclear weapon. The Pope said this, quote, if anyone wants to criticize me for proclaiming the gospel, let them do so with the truth. The church has spoken out against all nuclear weapons for years. There's no doubt about that. I simply hope to be listened to because of the value of God's word. Those comments come as Secretary of State Marco Rubio, who is himself a Catholic, is expected to meet with Pope Leo tomorrow. There are new polls out because Trump is, as I said, in a verbal war with the Pope that show American Catholics are at odds with Trump on this one. According to Washington Post Ipsos poll, 61% of U.S. catholics approve of Pope Leo. Tim is still here. There's some more in these polling. Reaction to Donald Trump posting a picture depicting himself as Jesus. 87% of respondents had a negative view of that. 9%, which is probably like the Mar a Lago winners club or something. Liked it. He said publicly praying to God for overwhelming violence of action against those who deserve no mercy. End quote. 27% have a positive view of that. 69% negative. Your thoughts about this war with the Vatican?
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Nicole Wallace
I think it's pretty telling that they're sending Rubio there, especially after the back and forth. Vance was there not so long ago. And to me it says that they're looking at these numbers and they know that they have problems with Catholics and with people of faith and that they think that Navy Marco would be better suited than JD Given his demeanor to try to smooth things over. And I think that it's a pretty rare sign from this White House, at least in Trump 2.0 of them, kind of demonstrating that they realize they've created a political problem for themselves. Chris Tipper Hale writes a good substack about the Vatican. And I was reading this the other day. There's another theory that's out there. Potential reporting is that Marco could be going there about Trump's potential engagement in Cuba next because we know that Trump has an eye on Cuba. And I don't know, maybe there's some thinking that he could defuse Pope Leo over that. Given what we've seen from Pope Leo, I find that very hard to believe. But I think both Cuba and their political problems is what's driving this.
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Tim Miller
The other interesting thing is that Pope Leo doesn't back down. He's afraid of not one thing from them. And you've got a study in the Republicans cowering For the 10 years we've been covering them. This is not, they're not dealing with Lindsey Graham here in Pope Leo. He's made of something totally different.
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Nicole Wallace
Yeah, absolutely. And he doesn't have to be responsive to opinion polls, you know, And Pope Leo is also not saying anything differently than he would have said before. You know, he's been very consistent in his kind of posture within the Catholic Church. And, you know, I think I said this last time this came up with you, Nicole. It's like this is another mess of their own making. And it's not as if the Catholic Church didn't have disagreements with the Biden administration over abortion or other issues. But you just didn't see Joe behind him going onto his social media feed to call him names. Right. And I think that they've created this problem for themselves. And Pope Leo is certainly not, does not seem like he's demonstrating any push, any malleability on this and for good reason. And I think it's a good lesson to others about the way that you can stand up to these guys. Bullying.
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Tim Miller
Can you imagine the news cycle of Joe Biden tweeted the Pope is soft on, I don't know, women's issues. Crazy. Tim Miller, thank you for joining us today.
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