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- [00:00]
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- [01:00]
Krystal Ball
Hey everybody. Bright and early this morning I was guest hosting the Breaking Points podcast with Crystal Ball. People don't know Breaking Points. It's kind of this, it's a horseshoe podcast. They have some, some Trumpy type people and some Bernie type people and you know, they hash out the news of the day. And so, you know, I'm over here on the other side of the horseshoe from that. And so I thought it'd be fun to chat with them about everything that's going on in the world, chat with them about my ideological journey. It was a blast. So I wanted to give you a couple of the clips, a couple of the highlights from the show, but it was a marathon so you can catch the whole thing over on the Breaking Points feed. So check it out. Appreciate y' all subscribe to our feed right here. We'll see you soon.
- [01:48]
Saagar Enjeti
Let me ask you to respond to what the haters would say about you, which is that you previously, you were doing what you needed to do and saying what you needed to say in order to serve the Republican side and your Republican bosses. And now are you just doing the same thing to serve your liberal audience and to appeal to the MSNBC folks that you're speaking to on a regular basis.
- [02:11]
Krystal Ball
I love talking to the haters. That's fine. No, I mean, look, so just on the money side of things, not that I'm doing great, I'm fine. But the amount of money the people around Trump are making right now is gonna shock the conscience. I mean, like, Jason Miller also opposed Trump, like me initially he was with Ted Cruz, I was with Jeb. But I forgot that actually I hung out with Jason Miller, and he opposed Trump. So did Kellyanne. And Jason Miller just got a contract from India. That's like $100,000 a month or something. Or I forget I don't have it in front of me. $150,000 a month, maybe. And so, you know, I'm not bringing in that much on YouTube. I'm telling you, we're doing okay. And so I'm not looking for sympathy, but, like, the way to whatever do well in the Trump Republican Party was to stay. And a lot of my friends have expanded their houses. Well, a lot of my former friends have expanded their houses. So there's that. I hear what you're saying, and I think, look, anybody that is in the business of talking about the news, I'm sure you guys think about this, especially in this day and age, you see what your audience likes and doesn't like. Even if you don't read the comments, you see it in the metrics. And so I understand that people would be skeptical of all this, but I really, I try my very best to just say what I want, what I think, and only care about what I care about, and not be pretend outraged about things I'm not outraged about. And during the campaign in 2024, people were very upset at us over our thoughts about Joe Biden, which maybe we can talk about in a second. I was horrified by Joe Biden, and I have not. I've. The Bulwark audience is pretty Biden, you know, center left folks. So, like, there are a lot of big Biden fans. To the extent the big Biden fans exist, a lot of them were bull or consumers.
- [03:57]
Saagar Enjeti
The Biden super fan, a lot of them were overlapped.
- [04:00]
Krystal Ball
Yeah, A lot of them were unhappy with my views on him. And, And I just, I didn't move an inch. If anything, it radicalized me more because I was like, screw you guys. I was like, are you kidding me? Are you seeing this? I, you know, I was pressured into lying on behalf of Trump back when I was a Republican, and I refused to do it. And now I've opposed Trump, and you're trying to bully me into, you know, arguing, you know, trying to tell people that to not believe their lying eyes about Joe Biden. Like, no, I'm not gonna do that. So, you know, look, I mean, I think that we're doing the best we can to give people what we honestly think every day. I think that there's no doubt in the YouTube game, you know, this, you know, sometimes that the little thumbnail has to be a little more crazy than be the. But that's just like part of doing all this. And so, you know, I mean, I think that there's a little bit of that. That's probably a fair criticism for my haters. But, no, I'm not, I'm not changing my views on anything.
- [04:59]
Saagar Enjeti
That's a good transition to talk about the latest news with regard to Biden. We can put this up on the screen. So Jake Tapper and Alex Thompson are coming out with a book that's kind of meant to be like a tell all of what was going on on the inside and who knew what and when with regard to Biden's significant decline. And the big scoop that's out this morning is that his physical deterioration, most apparent in his halting walk, had become so severe that there were internal discussions about putting the president in a wheelchair, but they couldn't do so until after the election. And, I mean, I do want to say, like, his physical deterioration was not really my concern. The mental deterioration was more of the concern. But this is of a piece with the decline that we were all watching. And as you said, the Democratic Party was asking us, and much of the media, too, by the way, was asking us not to believe our lying eyes at this point. And I think there's again, a direct line between Biden deciding to run. No one within the mainstream Democratic Party really challenging him. You did have Dean Phillips jump in there. You had Marianne Williamson in the race as well, but they blocked even having primary contests in a number of states. So there was really no chance for anyone to succeed. Direct line from that to the reelection of Donald Trump in the world that we now live in.
- [06:17]
Krystal Ball
Yeah, I had to do my Dean Phillips mea culpa a couple months ago because I still stand by. I don't think the way he prosecuted his campaign was the most effective, but I was a little too mean to him because the premise of his campaign was correct. And it was then later in the summer where it was very clear to me that that was the case. And look, I'm with you. I don't care that much about the wheelchair, whatever. But to me, it's just one part of this broader thing, which is regardless of what you think about some of the smaller arguments about whether Biden should have stuck around and the debate and whether he could have done it and whether he could do the job or how much had he really declined? Was it just one, regardless of all that to me, the biggest possible picture is it was ridiculous for them to try to sell us on the fact that Joe Biden could be president in four years from now when he's 87. It was ridiculous. It was a ridiculous proposition. The American people saw through it, and we all saw it with our own eyes on the debate stage. And the fact that it took them so long to then come around to it, and the fact that then even once they did, we had to have the Biden tribute day at the Kamala convention, and then she was pressured to not distance from him and all this sort of stuff. To me, I really think their actions have been shameful, absolutely shameful in the last year. And it makes me very upset, actually. And so I don't even know. I hope Jake and Alex aren't watching this. I keep going over my head. I'm like, can I even have Jake and Alex on the podcast? Mostly because it makes me so mad. I kind of just want to pretend. I just want to move forward. So I probably will, because, you know, you have to grapple with this sort of stuff. But it makes me so upset that, you know, they're asking a lot of other people to sacrifice and then not doing it. Not only not sacrificing themselves, but really making an extremely selfish decision. And I say they, because it was really the full family, and his closest advisors made a decision that was very, very selfish, and we're dealing with the consequences. And I wouldn't say he's the number one reason we have Trump right now. I definitely would put that on Mitch McConnell and the Republican senators who didn't convict him after January 6th, when they all knew they should have. But he certainly plays a role.
- [08:40]
Saagar Enjeti
Very central role. Very central role. And listen, like, Kamala Harris could have decided to distance herself from him, even in spite of the fact that he pressured her not to. But it does just show a level of ego and selfishness, to your point, that is quite extraordinary. I remember him making some comment at the time in an interview. He was asked, well, what happens if you lose Trump? He's like, well, as long as I tried my best, it'll be fine. I mean, this guy's a fascist.
- [09:08]
Krystal Ball
I was doing a work beach vacation there. I was going to a Matt Gaetz event in the Panhandle. But also my family was at the beach, and I went out back to the beach to watch that interview. I mean, you're triggering right now just thinking about it. I was so enraged. I don't know if I've ever been madder at somebody. And also to do the thing where it's like, our democracy's on the line, right? And also I get a participation award.
- [09:31]
Saagar Enjeti
For trying my bestest. It's like, no, it's not good enough. You have to win. You have to win. And if you aren't the person to do that, you needed to have stepped aside a year ago so that someone who was more able could carry the torch. And I guess the big question is if, if they've learned from this. And I think some have and some haven't. This is in the context of so David Hogg was elected vice chair of the dnc. And David, first of all, I think is very impressive in terms of there aren't a lot of Democrats who really understand new media, know how to grab attention, whatever. Just on that metric, he is very effective. But also he's obviously really trying to shake things up within the party. He, he was on with Bill Maher this past weekend and made some comments that he doesn't mention the name Jim Clyburn, but this is clearly directed at Jim Clyburn, who previously made some statement about what do they want me to do, resign and end my life from Congress. So this sparked a lot of dialogue within the Democratic Party. Let's go ahead and take a listen to a little bit of David Hogg here on Bill Maher.
- [10:35]
David Hogg
What I'm trying to do with this initiative with leaders we deserve, the organization that we're working with is to challenge Democrats that we feel like are failing to meet the moment in safe congressional seats that don't risk us losing the House and say to them, look, nobody is entitled to their position of power because ultimately the positions of power in this country don't belong to any member of Congress that is out there. They belong to the people that vote them into office. Part of what happens in politics is people want to do two things at the same time that are incompatible. They want to keep the same people in the positions of power that they're in that are individually beneficial to them. And, and they want to get back to winning. But we're not going to be able to do that with the same cast of characters that got us here. And the answer to that is to use democracy within our own party to give voters the option of voting for somebody new so that they at least have the option.
- [11:18]
Krystal Ball
Right. So you want to get rid of the dead wood.
- [11:20]
David Hogg
Effectively, yes, but it's not just a matter of age. To be clear, there have been a few members that have come out that have Said, well, you know, if I retire, my life is effectively over. And what I would say is, get over yourself. This isn't about you. This is about our country and it's about your constituents. Nobody is in. I don't care if you've been there for decades or just one term. That seat is not yours. It is your constituents. That is who you're there to serve. And if they choose to serve somebody else, so be it. That's all. What all we're trying to do with leaders we deserve.
- [11:48]
Saagar Enjeti
So the quote that he's referencing there, put the next piece up on the screen is this from Jim Clyburn. He said, Nancy left her seat, Steny left his seat, I left my seat. What the hell am I supposed to do now? What do you want me to give up my life? And so Clyburn is saying, listen, we step back from our leadership positions, but he continues to hold the seat and run for reelection. And that appears to be what David Hogg is referencing here. What do you think of what David Hogg is trying to do at the DNC and also the pushback that he's received for it?
- [12:16]
Krystal Ball
Yeah, we might finally get to our disagreement in the last block. I don't know. I think everybody can get over themselves in this story. I don't know. The David Hogg thing. Look, if David Hogg had not run for DNC Vice chair and decided to start a group that was primary older Democrats and saying we want to get new youthful Democrats in, and it's ideologically, I don't care. Maybe it's in some scenarios it's a Dan Osborne type, maybe it's a moderate bulwark type. Maybe it's a DSA type. I'm okay with that program. That's a good program. Getting a younger, you know, more diverse, both, you know, ideologically and, you know, racially group of people into the party, like I'd be for all that. But he decided to run for DNC Vice Chair. Right. And to me, this is like the thing about all this, about how just pathetically incompetent the DNC is. And I do. Like I look at the story and it's just like, you know, there are conspiracy theories out there about how the DNC is like orchestrating things. Like the DNC can't orchestrate a two car parade. Like the DNC can't do anything. It was insane for them to put somebody who was vastly more famous and to your point, vastly more, you know, kind of online and in the public eye than the chairman as Vice chair. And, and, and have him be a total loose cannon. Like, what was, like, what is the point of that? Like, what was the, like what did they think that they were going to get? And so, you know, now you have somebody in the DNC who's like, firing, you know, inside the House and going on to Bill Maher and going on these shows and critiquing other people within the party. That's not the job of the DNC vice chair. It could be a job of an outside group that wants to do this, but it's not his job on the inside. And so now the dnc, rather than focusing on what they should be focusing on, which is how to beat as many Republicans as possible in the midterms, they have this internal firing squad going on and they're having a struggle session about whether the gender balance is right. I mean, it is the most pathetic, embarrassing organization that I've ever seen. And so to me, that's my takeaway from this story, is that the eye is not on the ball for basically any of the characters in this story.
- [14:35]
Saagar Enjeti
See, I hear what you're saying, but I would say that I support the internal firing squad. And I think the lack of an internal firing squad is exactly how Democrats ended up as pathetic and losing as many races as they did. Because what did we hear when it was Biden? It was, we can't have a primary. We can't be critiquing each other. We don't want the internal firing squad. Everybody's gotta stay unified and stay united, not criticize each other. And in the end, that ends up in disaster. Whereas to give the counterpoint, the Hillary Clinton Barack Obama primary was pretty vicious. It was raucous. You go back and watch, they were taking some real shots at each other. And guess what? You end up with a candidate who was able to not only win, but win handily and run for reelection and win quite handily there as well. I know you remember that one because you're on the other side working for Mitt Romney on that particular campaign. But I hear what you're saying about, like, maybe this wasn't the place for David Hogg to be to make his stand, but I think he's thinking about it of if you want to improve the party, the goal of the DNC should be, to your point, winning races. And part of that is rejuvenating this party and making sure we don't have another Dianne Feinstein cover up or Joe Biden style cover up, that we have people who are actually effective and responsive and embracing those small d Democratic values.
- [16:01]
Krystal Ball
It's a fair counterpoint. I would support strategic competition. I would just say to me, this looks like a total cluster fork, not strategic competition within the party. I just don't. Again, what I was seeing from David Hogg was, hey, I'm recruiting all these new people who are going to be the future face of the party and are more reflective of working class voters. And I'm going into red states and I'm going to recruit people that can actually win in these districts and we're going to go into deep blue districts and we're going to find people that are younger with more vigor to challenge. Then, okay, I would be for that. But I see mostly tweets and press releases and bickering at James Carville and Jim Clyburn and media appearances. So I just, I don't know. I think competition can be good, but being strategic and smart can also be good. And I don't think either the DNC or HOG over the past month have demonstrated a lot of smarts or strategy.