Trouble for Trump Admin? Group Sues Over Illegal Signal Messages

Summary

Bulwark Takes: Detailed Summary of "Trouble for Trump Admin? Group Sues Over Illegal Signal Messages"

Release Date: March 28, 2025
Host: The Bulwark (Tim Miller)
Guest: Chioma Chukwu, Interim Executive Director of American Oversight

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Introduction

In this episode of Bulwark Takes, host Tim Miller engages in a compelling discussion with Chioma Chukwu, the interim executive director of American Oversight, regarding a significant lawsuit filed against the Trump administration. The conversation delves into issues surrounding the illegal use of Signal messaging by government officials, records retention violations, and broader implications for governmental transparency and accountability.

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Overview of the Lawsuit

Tim Miller initiates the conversation by introducing the topic:

"[00:24] Tim Miller: ...American Oversight filed a lawsuit earlier this week targeting the government over the use of Signal in the Houthi PC small group Signal chat heard around the world."

Chioma Chukwu elaborates on the organization's mission and the specifics of the lawsuit:

"[01:05] Chioma Chukwu: ...American Oversight is a watchdog organization that monitors governments to ensure that they are complying with federal records law and other open record laws at the state level. And so here, when we learned that there were national security officials who were communicating in an insecure application about highly sensitive information, likely cloud classified, that were set to auto delete..."

The lawsuit targets the administration's use of Signal, an encrypted messaging app, which was set to auto-delete messages after a specified period. American Oversight argues that this practice violates the Federal Records Act, which mandates the preservation of government records.

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Records Retention and Legal Obligations

Tim Miller brings attention to the legal requirements for record-keeping:

"[01:50] Tim Miller: ...they're required by law to retain all of this."

Chioma Chukwu confirms the breach of the Federal Records Act:

"[02:17] Chioma Chukwu: ...The Federal Records act requires that agencies, agency heads, their staff, they create, maintain and preserve records in accordance with the Federal Records Act. It is evident that that did not happen here."

She emphasizes the straightforward nature of the law and the administration's failure to comply, leading to the lawsuit.

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Critique of the Attorney General's Response

The conversation shifts to the Attorney General's recent press conference, where she addressed the lawsuit:

"[03:03] Chioma Chukwu: If you want to talk about classified information, talk about what was at Hillary Clinton's home that she was trying to bleach bit."

Chioma criticizes the Attorney General for deflecting the issue by referencing the Hillary Clinton email scandal, suggesting it as a justification for not investigating the current misuse of Signal. She points out the inconsistency and perceived bias in the Attorney General's stance.

"[03:29] Chioma Chukwu: ...this is just the deflection, the distraction, the downplaying, because they know they were caught red handed..."

She insists that the same standards applied in past investigations, like Hillary Clinton's, should apply to the current administration.

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Judicial Proceedings and Next Steps

Tim Miller inquires about the current status of the lawsuit and recent judicial rulings:

"[04:09] Tim Miller: ...we've had a ruling already from, from Judge Bozberg. Talk to us about that."

Chioma Chukwu explains the recent Temporary Restraining Order (TRO) granted by Judge Boasberg:

"[04:35] Chioma Chukwu: ...the TRO ... was to prevent the agencies from further destruction and to ensure that they would preserve any record that has not already been deleted."

She outlines the expected next steps, including the agencies' obligation to preserve records and report their compliance to the court.

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Scope of the Issue and Administrative Patterns

The discussion broadens to the administration's overall approach to transparency and record-keeping:

"[05:52] Chioma Chukwu: ...we know that this administration has made clear that their modus operandi is to ensure that they are not communicating in a transparent, open way..."

Chioma points out that the misuse of Signal is symptomatic of a larger pattern within the administration to evade oversight and maintain secrecy. She references pre-inauguration communications and training with contributors to Project 2025, highlighting intentional strategies to use messaging applications like Signal to avoid record discovery.

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Importance of Records for Accountability

Tim Miller underscores the critical role of records in governmental accountability:

"[06:54] Tim Miller: ...the FOIA act allows people in the future to go and, like, see how government decisions were made..."

Chioma Chukwu expands on this by explaining the broader implications of record deletion:

"[07:21] Chioma Chukwu: ...when information is not preserved, and the people want to understand how their government's working, they want to know how decisions were being made... If those records are not preserved, they'll never have the answers..."

She emphasizes that transparent record-keeping is essential for citizens to hold their government accountable for decisions affecting various aspects of public life, including government benefits, employment, and taxation.

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Ongoing Efforts by American Oversight

The conversation concludes with an overview of American Oversight's broader initiatives:

"[08:59] Chioma Chukwu: ...we have some lawsuits against DOGE because again, DOGE has just been so incredibly non transparent..."

Chioma details multiple lawsuits targeting the administration's lack of transparency, including challenges against the Department of Defense (DOGE) and the firing of inspectors general. She asserts that these actions are part of a systematic effort to dismantle mechanisms that ensure governmental accountability and transparency.

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Conclusion

Tim Miller wraps up the discussion by expressing gratitude to Chioma Chukwu and highlighting the importance of American Oversight's work in maintaining governmental transparency and accountability.

"[10:05] Tim Miller: ...Thank you for coming on. That's American Oversight. Go check out their organization we appreciate the work you're doing."

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Key Takeaways

• Violation of Federal Records Act: The Trump administration's use of Signal for official communications, set to auto-delete messages, breaches federal law requiring the preservation of government records.

• Lack of Transparency: The administration exhibits a broader pattern of evading oversight and maintaining secrecy, as evidenced by the misuse of messaging apps and restructuring agencies to limit record accessibility.

• Legal Actions and Judicial Support: American Oversight successfully obtained a TRO to prevent further destruction of records, emphasizing the judiciary's role in enforcing transparency.

• Importance of Preserved Records: Proper record-keeping is vital for governmental accountability, enabling future investigations and ensuring that citizens can access information on government decisions and actions.

• Continued Advocacy: American Oversight is actively pursuing multiple lawsuits to challenge and rectify the administration's attempts to undermine transparency, including actions against DOGE and the dismissal of inspectors general.

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This episode of Bulwark Takes sheds light on critical issues surrounding governmental transparency, the legal obligations of record-keeping, and the ongoing efforts to hold the administration accountable through legal channels. Chioma Chukwu's insights provide a thorough understanding of the challenges and the importance of vigilant oversight in preserving democratic principles.

Transcript

[Ryan Seacrest]

It is Ryan Seacrest here. There was a recent social media trend which consisted of flying on a plane with no music, no movies, no entertainment. But a better trend would be going to chumbacasino.com it's like having a mini social casino in your pocket. Chumba casino has over 100 online casino style games, all absolutely free. It's the most fun you can have online and on a plane. So grab your free welcome bonus [e-mail] sponsored by Chumba Casino.

[Tim Miller]

No purchase necessary vgw group void where prohibited by law 21 + terms and conditions apply. Hey there y'all, it's Tim Miller from the Bulwark. I am here today with Chioma Chukwu, who is the interim executive director of American Oversight. American Oversight filed a lawsuit earlier this week targeting the government over the use of signal in the Houthi PC small group signal chat heard around the world. And I wanted to talk to her about the lawsuit because I think there's one element of what you guys are focused on that's getting a little bit lost in the shuffle. So thanks for doing it.

[Chioma Chukwu]

Thank you for having me. Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

Talk to us about what you guys are focused on here with regards to records retention and what these guys are doing.

[Chioma Chukwu]

Sure. Well, just to start out, American Oversight is a watchdog organization that monitors governments to ensure that they are complying with federal records law and other open record laws at the state level. And so here, when we learned that there were national security officials who were communicating in an insecure application about highly sensitive information, likely cloud classified, that were set to auto delete, we had many, many, many concerns. And so we moved quickly because we knew that every day that passed, more records would be destroyed, meaning that those communications that took place in March, between March 11 and March 15, would continue to delete. And those are records that belong to the American people. So we knew that we had to move quickly.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, One of the funny, I think dark week, darkly comic things about the texts when Jeffrey Goldberg released them is waltz changes the settings. Right. In Signal, it was like they're set to auto delete, I think after one week. And he changed it to after four weeks. But like, they're required by law to retain all of this. Right. And so unless they had the kind of a separate process this is, they were breaking the law and having this conversation.

[Chioma Chukwu]

That's exactly right. This is very simple. It is not complicated. The Federal Records act requires that agencies, agency heads, their staff, they create, maintain and preserve records in accordance with the Federal Records Act. It is evident that that did not happen here. And so that's why, you know, we move quickly.

[Tim Miller]

I was struck, I don't know. Did you see the Attorney General's press conference the other day? Yeah. So she's addressed this and there are a number of different things that should be investigated here. The specific issue that you're talking about with regards to records retention, obviously then there's a question about classification and whether they're releasing classified documents. But she references the Hillary Clinton scandal where she had a private server.

[Chioma Chukwu]

If you want to talk about classified information, talk about what was at Hillary Clinton's home that she was trying to bleach bit.

[Tim Miller]

And the interesting thing about that is she was using that as a rationalization for not investigating this, when in reality there was an extensive investigation of Hillary Clinton's use of a private server by government officials, by Department of Justice officials. So what did you make of the Attorney General just being so dismissive about the idea that this should be looked into?

[Chioma Chukwu]

I mean, it's unsurprising. It is more of the same is just the deflection, the distraction, the downplaying, because they know they were caught red handed and they know that if they admit that what they did violated the law, to them it's a sign of weakness. And, you know, we are here to show that you guys are not above the law. You have to comply with the same records. And as the Attorney General, your responsibility is to initiate an enforcement action so that, to ensure that they are going to comply going forward. And so she was bending herself in knots to try and justify why Hillary Clinton's email usage was somehow different when, as you said, we all remember Benghazi. And so, yeah, it didn't pass muster.

[Tim Miller]

And we all remember James Comey. We all remember, like, that was the most studied, it was the most investigated server out there. And for good, I mean, rightly, in certain cases. Right. Like, it doesn't matter what party you are if you're not following the records retention requests like those. Those are our records of the American people. Talk to us about the status of this lawsuit is just specifically about this one chat. And, and we've had a ruling already from, from Judge Bozberg. Talk to us about that.

[Chioma Chukwu]

Yeah, so our lawsuit, we filed a lawsuit that was seeking to preserve records across the relevant agencies. But, but the TRO, or the temporary restraining order which was at issue yesterday, that is the matter where Judge Boasberg ruled in favor of American oversight was to prevent the agencies from further destruction and to ensure that they would preserve any record that has not already been deleted. And so that was the order that came down yesterday. And so what we are expecting as a next step is that the agencies will take steps to preserve, if they haven't already. And then on Monday, we are expecting them to declare before the court what steps they in fact took to ensure the preservation of those records.

[Tim Miller]

Got it. Because the other thing, I'm wondering what your jurisdiction is on all this, because, you know, obviously there are other chats, and just the name Houthi PC Small group kind of implies that there's a large group. At the beginning of the chat. They. I don't have the transcript from me, but they say essentially, like, moving the chat here. Right. So they kind of imply that there's another chat happening so somewhere else. So what, what, you know, what, like, kind of role. What could a group like yours have, you know, when it comes to other records besides the ones we know about?

[Chioma Chukwu]

Well, that's a great point. We know that this administration has made clear that their modus operandi is to ensure that they are not communicating in a transparent, open way. They don't want people to know what they're talking about. They don't want people to know about the decisions that they're making. We know that before this administration took place in, during inauguration, there were communications happening and trainings happening with contributors to Project 2025 that were saying, this is how we are going to operate in the new administration. We are going to evade oversight, we are going to use messaging applications so that those communications aren't discoverable. So this was all foreshadowed. And then we subsequently learned that before inauguration that certain members of DOGE, through their planning, they were using signal. And we know that their signal usage with many of the DOGE members now. So we reason to believe this is a pervasive issue across the administration. This is just one sliver of a larger issue. And frankly, it comes from the top.

[Tim Miller]

Right. And for people who might not, like, get it, like, why the records preservation is so important, like, the FOIA act allows people in the future to go and, like, see how government decisions were made, how taxpayer money was used. If all these records get deleted, then there's no way, you know, for folks to be held accountable in the future for, for other. For groups to, to, you know, get information about how the government is using money. Like, talk about that.

[Chioma Chukwu]

That's exactly right. What people need to understand about this particular case, first, we are concerned not just because they're using signal. There are problems with that in and of itself, we're concerned because what they were communicating about in a cavalier manner had the, had the potential implication of, of jeopardizing the lives of our men and women. People could have been killed if that information had been intercepted by our foreign adversaries. And remember, we learned that the DoD had issued an advisory just days before communicating that that signal was not secure and that there had been activity of Russian actors trying to get access to signal communications. So that's what's operating in the background. But you know, generally speaking, people need to understand that when information is not preserved, and the people want to understand how their government's working, they want to know how decisions were being made. Why were those decisions made to cut government benefits? Why were decisions made to fire employees? Why were decisions made that ultimately increase my taxes? If those records are not preserved, they'll never have the answers to that. And that's why it's so important to continue keeping pressure to get them to turn over records. Because the government works for us, not the other way around. And when we ask for the information, they should be giving it to the people, because again, they, they said they were going to be maximally transparent. We are seeing that is completely. Nothing could be farther from the truth here. And so we are just making sure that we are holding them accountable.

[Tim Miller]

Makes sense. What else is American oversight doing? What else, what else are you guys working on?

[Chioma Chukwu]

Oh, man, we are busy. This administration is keeping us very, very busy. I mean, we have, we have some lawsuits against DOGE because again, DOGE has just been so incredibly non transparent. They have argued that they are not subject to Records Act. They went as far as moving DOGE into the executive office of the President so that no one can access those records. Again, this is a pattern of secrecy that we continue to see from this administration. And it's not just in this instance. We're also challenging the decision to fire the inspectors general. We're trying to figure out why did they do that? Why were they trying to gut federal transparency infrastructure, get rid of all the watchdogs, Democratic members on independent agencies. They are gutting systematically every single mechanism that would essentially serve as an impediment to their very destructive agenda. And so American oversight is just demanding information across the government about all of its destructive actions. We believe that the people are entitled to this information. It belongs to the people and it should be turned over.

[Tim Miller]

Hey, thanks so much. It's Chioma Chukwu. Thank you for coming on. That's American Oversight. Go check out their organization we appreciate the work you're doing.

[Chioma Chukwu]

Thank you.

[Tim Miller]

All right, we'll see you.

[Ryan Seacrest]

It is Ryan Seacrest here. There was a recent social media trend which consisted of flying on a plane with no music, no movies, no entertainment. But a better trend would be going to chumbacasino.com it's like having a mini social casino in your pocket. Chumba Casino has over a hundred online casino style games, all absolutely free. It's the most fun you can have online and on a plane. So grab your free welcome bonus [e-mail] sponsored by Chumba Casino.

[Chioma Chukwu]

No purchase necessary.

[Tim Miller]

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