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- [00:00]
JVL
Hello, everyone. This is JVL here with my colleague at the Bulwark, Will, Saletan and Will. We are just moments, minutes, hours after the meeting of the G7. Or is it the G8 or is this like the G12? I don't even know what's happening, but the American President was out doing some presidenting with the Prime Minister of Canada. I think it went great, right? Everything went great. It was all totally normal. And there's really nothing to report. I don't even know why we're doing this show.
- [00:32]
Will Saletan
So this is one of these amazing things that can only happen in a Trump administration. I can't say the Trump administration since we're in the second one. So every so often there's this meeting of the G7. And yeah, it used to be the G8 and the 8 was Russia, and Russia's not there anymore. So in any event, this is being hosted in Canada and Basically it's the G7 for people who don't know is it's us, the Canadians, the Japanese, and then the Europeans, the British, the French, the Italians. Who am I missing? The Germans. So we get together and it's supposed to be a consensus thing. Here's what all the good countries, you know, of the world, the leader, the leaders of the world, the big economies, the big democracies, and they have this agenda. So let me sort of kick this off for you. Mark Carney, the, the Prime Minister of Canada is hosting this. And so he has an introductory event. Here's Donald Trump, the president of the most important country, the most important democracy. And Carney's going to kick him off here and he's going to signal to Trump what the issues on the agenda are. You know, about the both world trade wildfires, you know, things that can sort of bring us together. And then Trump. You're going to hear Trump respond to this by introducing on his own, nobody cueing him, the topic that he really cares about. And you'll see what it is. Many issues, geopolitics, economic technology and working hand in hand with the United States, Canada and the United States and the other G7 partners with your leadership. Very much looking forward to the meeting.
- [02:14]
JVL
And grateful to have you.
- [02:15]
Mark Carney
Thank you very much, Mark. I appreciate it. The G7 used to be the G8. Barack Obama and a person named Trudeau didn't want to have Russia in then. I would say that that was a mistake because I think you wouldn't have a war right now if you had Russia in.
- [02:30]
Will Saletan
Okay, so again, this is supposed to be a Consensus meeting of the democracies. And Trump, unbidden, decides that the first thing he's going to bring up is to blame the host country, Canada, and his own country, the United States, for excluding the. The only country that he apparently cares about at this event, which isn't at the event, which is Russia, which, correct me if I'm wrong, is a rather odd thing for the guest to do at an event like this.
- [03:01]
JVL
Well, that wasn't the real America that excluded Russia, Will. That was. That was the bad old America, which doesn't count anymore because it was by that gentleman named Barack Obama. He didn't say Hussein. So, like, I guess he was being polite.
- [03:15]
Will Saletan
Right. Well, Hussein, that was a little gesture from Trump to be, to be nice.
- [03:19]
JVL
To, you know, it was an olive. It was an olive branch. At least you didn't say by the black president. Right. He could have done that.
- [03:27]
Will Saletan
Although Hussein kind of counts as the Muslim president. Right. That was, that was his birther thing. Right. Okay, so, so that's, that's the first thing Trump says. And then, then the questions start from the reporters. And there's a question about trade with Canada, the talks between the US And Canada. There's a question about Iran and Israel, the war between them. And then the third question is about Russia. Here's the question, and here's what Trump says in response to it. You mentioned Putin. Do you think that he should have.
- [03:58]
JVL
A seat at the G7 today?
- [03:59]
Will Saletan
That it should be the G8?
- [04:01]
Mark Carney
I'm not saying he should at this point because too much water's gone over the dam. Maybe, but it was a big mistake. Obama want him and the head of your country, the proud head of your country didn't want him. This was a big mistake. You wouldn't have that war. You know, you have your enemy at the table, even. I don't even consider him. He wasn't really an enemy at that time. There was no concept. If I were president, this war would have never happened. But likewise, if he were a member of what was called the G8 at that time, it was always the G8. You wouldn't have a war right now.
- [04:36]
JVL
Yeah. You know, he doesn't even like to call him an enemy now. Not like, you know, we wouldn't have been called an enemy then. Trump doesn't call him an enemy now.
- [04:46]
Will Saletan
No, no, but, but, but Trump does have an enemy, or at least he has a country he wants to insult, Not, Not Putin, not Russia. They're not our, they're not our enemy. He wants to start off With Justin Trudeau, the former prime minister, admittedly not Mark Carney. He's been replaced by Mark Carney. But. But Trump is going out of his way to insult the host country. He's referring to Trudeau as the proud head of your country. That's a dig from Trump. That's like your former prime minister was such.
- [05:16]
JVL
It's sarcastic. Proud. You can, like, hear his air quotes.
- [05:21]
Will Saletan
Oh, totally. So he's like, you know, you're proud. Read arrogant. Right. He's the arrogant head of your country and the arrogant head of my country. The black guy, the Muslim. Right. Just for anybody who's not clear about it, Obama, yes. Black, not actually Muslim. But Trump didn't care. It's just a way to other him. Right. So the bad guys are the Americans and the Canadians who kick the Russians out of the G8. And then at the end. That's totally an amazing statement. He says that if Putin were a member of the G8, you wouldn't have a war. Correct me If I'm wrong, JVL, wasn't Putin kicked out of the G8 because he started the war because he sent Russian troops in and seized Crimea from Ukraine?
- [06:04]
JVL
Yeah.
- [06:04]
Will Saletan
Is that what happened?
- [06:05]
JVL
The war did not start in 2020, during, you know, 2022 rather, or 2021. The war started years before. This is like, you know, 20. Isn't 2014, like the actual date when the incursions of little green men started? I'm sorry, we'll have to, we'll have to. I'll have to effort that, you know, but, yeah, this, you know, but for Trump, things, things don't come into being except for when they're useful to him.
- [06:29]
Will Saletan
Yeah, yeah. And like the ahistoricism of it, that the reason why this happened was that Russia had already invaded. And yet Trump. Tell me if he's just lying, but I think he's just can't compute it that literally he's saying the war would not have happened if we had kept him in when the war started in 2014, as you point out, in Crimea, when Putin was in, and that's why he got kicked out. So Trump's got the timeline completely backwards.
- [06:56]
JVL
Yeah.
- [06:57]
Will Saletan
Okay, so this goes on, and there's one more question, and it's not about Russia. It's about China. Here's the question, and here's Trump's answer to it.
- [07:06]
JVL
Why not have China at the ga?
- [07:08]
Mark Carney
Why not have China here, the biggest economy in the world after the United States? Well, it's not a bad idea. I don't mind that if somebody wants to suggest China coming in, I think we suggest. But you want to have people that you can talk to, you know, they. They don't talk. Putin speaks to me. He doesn't speak to anybody else. He doesn't want to talk because he was very insulted when he got thrown out of the ga, as I would be, as you would be, as anybody would be. He was very insulted. And I mean, he was thrown out by Trudeau, who convinced one or two people along with Obama. He was thrown out, and he's not a happy person about it, I can tell you that. He doesn't even speak to the people that throw him out. And I agree with him.
- [07:51]
JVL
I'm just watching Carney's face the entire time. That guy is pissed. And he is not. Like, he's trying to poker face it up, but he is not really succeeding. And he's just, you know, he's got this. You can all practically hear him grinding his teeth as he's doing it. It's an amazing thing. Trump is like floating policy. Yeah. I want to make bring China in here, and then, you know, Putin still talks to me. You know, we're on the phone all the time. Call me for my birthday. We wish them a happy Russia day, you know, because he's treated very badly. Wouldn't you feel bad, too, if, you know, a black guy and a Canadian had thrown you out of a club? He views. I. Honestly, he must think of. Of the G7, G8, as if it is a golf club. Right. I mean, isn't this clear that he is assigning, like, social capital to this, where it's like, well, you know, I mean, it's like at Bedminster, you know, don't go to war against each other.
- [08:55]
Will Saletan
That is such a great. I've actually never thought of it that way. I thought of, like, you know, Trump thinks he's part of the country club of dictators. So he talks about his buddies, Putin and Kim Jong Un and President Xi, constantly about how I'm chatting with these guys. But I hadn't computed that in terms of the G7, which is that it's really interesting. I think. I think you're right. He can't believe that these people who shouldn't be in the G7, from Trump's point of view, threw out the big guy, Putin. Right?
- [09:23]
JVL
Yeah.
- [09:23]
Will Saletan
But it's totally amazing to me how in this. This rant he's doing, he totally takes Putin's point of view. I mean, he says, you know, Putin doesn't speak to anybody else. He only speaks to me and. Than he. And he describes having a conversation with Putin and that Putin is very insulted as. And Trump says, as I would be, as anyone would be. That's. I mean, he's not just saying, I've heard this from Putin. He's saying, I totally identify with Putin. Putin's in the right. And he ends up saying, I agree with him. So he's like, overtly taking Putin's side against the G7, literally. Mark Carney, who's hosting him, who's standing right there. So you're right. Carney can't stand this. And then Carney eventually steps in and ends this weird, you know, this rant of Trump's that's spoiling the whole message.
- [10:12]
Mark Carney
I want to.
- [10:13]
JVL
I want to run something by you.
- [10:14]
Will Saletan
Yeah.
- [10:15]
JVL
Last week was Russia Day, Russian national Day, and our Secretary of State put out a statement on behalf of the American people. I want to congratulate the Russian people on Russia Day. The United States remains committed to supporting the Russian people as they continue to build on their aspirations for a brighter future. We also take this opportunity to reaffirm the United States desire for constructive engagement with the Russian Federation, to bring about a durable peace between Russia and Ukraine. It is our hope that peace will foster more mutually beneficial relations between our countries. Does the KGB even need to do anything anymore? I mean, Trump has put these guys out of business. Not the KGB anymore. I know that because this is all this. If. Would they. If the Russians had an asset as President of the United States, this is what his State Department would put out. This is what he would say at the G7. He would go to the G7 and say, Boy, maybe we should have Russia back in here. It was really unfair that the Americans and Canadians kicked him out. You can understand why they're upset, right? I mean, this is. This is one of those cases where I don't think that Trump is a Russian asset. But I. I do think it is impossible to come up with other things he might be doing to further Russia's national interest if he were formally belonging to Putin.
- [11:37]
Will Saletan
Can I follow up on that, though? What is the technical definition of asset? Let me put it this way. Someone who shows up, as Trump has just done at the G7 and begins on his own with his main talking point being Russia should be here, and then proceeds to explain that Russia is on the right side. We were wrong to throw Russia out. Russia, Putin has every reason to be upset. We're the reason that he started the war, not him. Is that not the definition of an asset.
- [12:06]
JVL
I mean, I think technically an asset is somebody for whom the handlers have some degree of control over. And I think the great thing about Trump is that they don't have to control him. He wants what they want, their interests align. And this is, you know, he put out a statement on Sunday night about immigration and in the course of talking about how he is going to step up immigration enforcement in major cities that happen to be in Democratically controlled states, in the course of this, he said these radical left Democrats are sick of mind, hate our country and actually want to destroy our inner cities. There is something wrong with them. He would never talk about Vladimir Putin that way. And that's because he doesn't see Putin as the enemy. He sees half of America as the enemy.
- [13:03]
Will Saletan
Yeah, that's absolutely true. And I think that you flagged something in your triad about. He said that he was targeting enforcement at what he called, I think, core Democrat. What was the term? Core Democratic areas. There's a phrase that he used.
- [13:18]
JVL
These and other such cities are the core of the Democrat power center where they use illegal aliens to expand their voter base, cheat in elections and grow the welfare states, robbing good paying jobs and benefits from hardworking American citizens.
- [13:34]
Will Saletan
Yeah, I mean, that is a statement that his immigration enforcement is targeted not at enforcing the law generally, which is the nature of law, it's at the Democratic power centers. And that the illegal aliens, according to Trump, are part of the Democratic machine. So this is not about Americans versus foreigners, this is about Americans versus Americans. And we're trying to undercut the Democratic coalition of which in his mind, the illegal immigrants are just one part.
- [14:01]
JVL
Yeah. Not a voting part, but sure. No, but this, again, this is just state of mind. This is, and I guess Trump's defenders would say, guys, art of the deal. Right? This is art of the deal is that you gotta, you insult your friends and your allies because they have to take it and you butter up your enemies. Cause that's how you get them to do what you want. And I might understand that if we were seeing Trump making any movement in directions like that. Right. That is a, that is a theory of relations, of international relations. The thing is, Trump seems to be insulting our allies in the course of not furthering America's interests and buttering up our adversaries. Also not in the course of America's interests. They're just in the interest of, of Trump or authoritarianism. Like it's, it's not actually in the interest of, of America.
- [15:05]
Will Saletan
Right, of course.
- [15:06]
JVL
Trump Those things are indivisible. Right. They're the same.
- [15:08]
Will Saletan
Right. So, okay, as you just explained, it doesn't make. It's not logical, it's not rational. There's not strategic. So what is it? Let me, let me play one more clip here. And this is from Thursday. Trump, a signing ceremony. And at the end of it, he talked again about his relationships with Putin and specifically about his phone calls with Putin. Let's listen to this.
- [15:30]
Mark Carney
And I happened to speak to President Putin at the time. Now, in all fairness to him, he lost 51 million people and he did fight Russia. Fought. Sort of interesting, isn't it? He fought with us in World War II, and everybody hates him. And Germany and Japan, they're fine. You know, someday somebody will explain that. But I like Germany and Japan, too. But Putin is a little confused by that. You know, he said, we lost 51 million people and we were your ally, and now everybody hates Russia and they love Germany and Japan. I said, let's explain that sometime. Okay? But it's a, it's a, it's a strange world.
- [16:07]
Will Saletan
So, so he's making an argument there about why we should be on Russia's side, but he's not just making the argument in general. He's narrating a conversation that he had with Putin. He's had a couple of long phone calls with Putin, and he's basically saying, putin said this to me. And then, then it. Which was, you know, we were your ally, and now why are you with Germany and Japan, the two main big members of the G7? And then Trump goes on and says, and says, I said, let's explain that sometime, as though he's having the. He's narrating this conversation he had with Putin, and he's transitioning seamlessly from he said what Putin said to I said, which is the same thing. And basically conveying that they were in total agreement in this phone call. So my, my answer to you, jvl, and tell me where you are on this, is the reason why Putin talks this way about Russia and talks very differently about the United States, as you know, having his domestic enemies, is that Putin is essentially lobbying him. They're having these phone calls. And when Trump talks this way at the G7, he's parroting the talking points that Putin has just given him.
- [17:08]
JVL
Yes. So this is. I'm going to, I'm going to teach you a little trick of Trump's that I learned from the comedian Shane Gillis. And once you've heard it, you'll never unhear it. What Trump does, he makes an observation, and then he follows it up by saying that he said the observation. It's very easy. All you have to do is, like, describe something and then say you described it that way. That's it.
- [17:31]
Mark Carney
What a big room this is. I walked in here, I said, wow, what a big room.
- [17:36]
JVL
Right? This is how he does everything. And that's how he was just now, right? 51 million. And I said, yeah, 51 million. This is what he. This is how he does all of his communication as part of the weave. And this is of a piece of. This is now, I think a week and a half ago, maybe two weeks ago, when he met with the. The German chancellor, and it was like he. It was like the presidential equivalent. It was on D Day, I guess, and he was, like, pointing at the score, but he's like, yeah, not such a good day for you, was it?
- [18:07]
Will Saletan
This is D Day anniversary when the Americans once ended war in Europe.
- [18:14]
Mark Carney
That was not a pleasant day for you.
- [18:15]
Will Saletan
No, that was not. Not a pleasant 12 in the long run, Mr. President. This was the liberation of my country from Nazi, Nazi dictatorship.
- [18:24]
JVL
Right. And in these, you know, as if Mertz is sitting there really nursing that grudge of, oh, boy, you know, it's terrible that we lost World War II. I wish the Nazis were still in control. Do you remember this, Will?
- [18:38]
Will Saletan
Yes.
- [18:39]
JVL
And this is. This is Trump's view of the world. That is all just some giant scoreboard. And I. I mean, I. I don't even quite know what to do with it. It's so stupid.
- [18:52]
Will Saletan
Yeah.
- [18:52]
JVL
But also dangerous. Like, everything. Trump, both stupid and dangerous.
- [18:58]
Will Saletan
Right. And that. But that. That response to Mertz is kind of classic, because Trump doesn't understand anything about values. Right. He only understands nationality. And so if you're a German, you should be on the side of the Germans. And if you're.
- [19:09]
JVL
Weren't you guys rooting for the Germans.
- [19:12]
Will Saletan
Right. And Mertz is trying to explain to him, like, no, actually, although it was the government of my country, it was doing bad things like mass murdering people. And Trump just doesn't seem to comprehend that. Right. And. And he. Even today, when Putin says to him, you should be on our side because, you know, 80 years ago, the Nazis controlled Germany. Trump doesn't understand any of that. He's like, well, yeah, it is weird that we would be siding with a country that 80 years ago was Nazi and against a country that was our ally 80 years ago and is now, you know, destroying a democratic country.
- [19:45]
JVL
So here, what's so funny about this though, Will. So Trump in his own life is totally transactional. Right? It does not matter what your history with him is. It doesn't matter how long you've gotten along. If, if there's something to his advantage right now, then he'll do it. And you're in the past and he doesn't care anymore. But yet all of a sudden we get to international relations and everybody is supposed to be on these, like, long term tribes that last for generations. And like, you know, if you're German, then you're. If you're Germany, then you're German through and through. And if you're Russia and you fought with us in 1941, then, well, God darn it, why can't we, why can't we, why shouldn't we still be on their side? It's such a weird psychological view of the world, and I think it's unconscious. I don't think there is a conscious thing going on here. I think we're just seeing how his ID works.
- [20:42]
Will Saletan
Yeah, yeah. And the, and the, and also the way he describes his conversation with Putin, it's just another. It's a, it's a transaction with a. It's got a historical message behind it. But Putin is lobbying him the way some guy at the country club would say. You know, my company's trying to do this, and here's why you should give it. Do us a favor. We're TikTok, we're Apple. Whoever it is, we're Russia. You know, come on, we're buds. Stand with us.
- [21:06]
JVL
Guys, it's something else. I mean, I guess, I guess this counts as good because it's only the President screwing up a G7 meeting and messing up our international relations with our biggest trading partners. It's not sending troops onto the streets. It's not having tanks in D.C. so this counts as one of our charming scandals, I guess. Only another three years and seven months left. Good luck, America.