Katherine Rampel (2:26)

Yeah, yeah, we. There's a photo of it, too, that I think is part of the reason this went viral, where you can see that all of the men are standing in the front, the women are crowded in back on some sort of, I

Sarah Matthews (2:40)

don't know, podium type thing.

Katherine Rampel (2:42)

Risers. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It is pretty striking that they have made women's sports, they being the MAGA folks, women's sports, like a pivotal issue in campaign after campaign after campaign. You know, for all of those single Issue women's sports voters out there, and yet this is like, a very telling photo. Clearly are not so interested in women's sports. Whatever. Elsewhere you have Donald Trump banning trans women from competing through his executive order last year. But he says, you know, exciting news. This is, in a truth social post, exciting news. Due to my executive order, which I proudly signed yesterday, the NCAA has officially changed their policy of allowing men in women's sports. It is now banned. This is a great day for women and girls across our country. Men should have never been allowed to compete against women at first. Blah, blah, blah, blah. So I don't know, it's like, it's. It's. It's pretty telling, this visual right here,

Sarah Matthews (3:47)

how the subjects are insane. I mean, if I were at the White House staging this photo, I couldn't imagine who would think it would be a good idea to put those women in the back. I mean, obviously, if you're celebrating them and honoring their accomplishments, you would think that they should be front and center. And then just also, like, any person with, like, enough brain cells would think that you put the taller men in the back and put the women up front. Just in general for most photo, but particularly for this, where the reason that these women are at the White House is to be honored. And then they're like, nah, you, you, ladies to the back, men up front. And then I couldn't get past that video of him not even bothering to shake their hands, but shakes the hands of their male coaches. But it really is, like, a great depiction of, I feel like, Trump's attitude toward women. I mean, they say, you know, a picture is worth a thousand words, and this picture definitely is saying a lot.

Katherine Rampel (4:41)

I think totally. And I think if this happened in isolation, if you hadn't had this context of an obsession with women's sports or a stated obsession with women's sports, I think this photo still would have seemed weird, like, for the reasons you just mentioned that the women are likely not as tall as the men who are standing in front. Like, it. It's just an odd arrangement. But then you layer on top of all of this the fact that they claim that this is, like, their number one issue. Like, not that long ago, you had the doordash granny lady. Do you remember this? The. The doordash granny, yes.

Sarah Matthews (5:24)

He asked her about her opinion on what do you think about men and women's sports? And she was like, I don't have an opinion on that. And it was a very awkward moment.

Katherine Rampel (5:32)

They want to have men playing in women's sport. Do you think that men should play in women's sports? I really don't have an opinion on that. You don't? I'll bet you do. No, I'm here about tax on tips.

Sarah Matthews (5:45)

Yeah. She's like, I'm just here to deliver DoorDash. Here's your McDonald's.

Katherine Rampel (5:49)

Yeah. Yeah. She was there specifically to promote his no tax on tips policy that got signed into law last year. So it was like another thing that he could have touted at least as a political win. You know, we can get in, fall down a rabbit hole and talking about, like, whether the economics of that are any good. But at least the optics could have been very easily in his favor. He could have just taken the win that this was this nice little photo op. And instead he put this woman on the spot who was really there to just talk about no tax on tips and tried to force her into this culture war issue. I mean, I don't know what she thinks about the issue, but it was clear that she had been media trained to not talk about anything other than no tax on tips. My feeling, my hot take on this is like, yeah, people can have differing views on trans women in women's sports. And I understand there's a debate about fairness. And I don't really have a strong view on. On any of this because I don't really care that much about sports. I do think it's weird that there's so much fixation on it, but my general view on this is, like, if you have made this your top issue, if, like, this is what got you to the polls 2024, and maybe he will bring you out again this year, I feel like you should be required to invest the time in watching women's sports. You know, if you really care about it so much, I expect you to be out there watching women swimming meets and watching women play softball and all these things that I'm not super interested in. Not because they're women, because. But because they're sports. But for other people, you know, it's not enough to just like, maybe buy a little one Caitlin Clark onesie for your toddler. Like, yeah, put in the effort. If this is really your driving motivation for your vote.

Sarah Matthews (7:37)

You know what that makes me think, too, is, like, where is Riley Gaines on all of this? You would think that she's been the loudest cheerleader for this and out there advocating for, you know, women's sports. And then you look at this photo and you would think that she. She would be standing up for these Women. I know she has been willing to recently push back on the president after he posted that AI image of himself as Jesus Christ. And I was happy to see, you know, her and some others on the far right who were willing to come out and say, hey, this is a red line for us, a bridge too far, which rarely happens in MAGA world. But when it comes to something like this, which is what has, you know, given her all this fame, you would think that she would say, okay, this was a swing in the mist by the White House. They should have put these women front and center, and this was terrible optics for them. And she would advocate for these women. But she's been silent on this particular issue, even though this is her bread and butter.

Katherine Rampel (8:34)

Yeah. My understanding is she's kind of on the outs with Trump land right now, Price, precisely because she had criticized the Donald Trump as Jesus last slash.

Sarah Matthews (8:44)

Yeah, What? Trump said something like, I don't even listen to her. And I'm like, that's hilarious. Because it's like these people who have, you know, made Donald Trump basically, you know, like, they follow everything he says or does, and then as soon as you're willing to criticize him on one thing, it just shows how easily willing he is to discard people.

Katherine Rampel (9:06)

Yeah, yeah, he said, I didn't listen to Riley Gaines. I'm not a big fan of Riley, actually. And then I think she posted some sort of vague apology, like she's still really rooting for him and she's glad that she. He took down the Jesus post. So that apparently has not driven her away. I don't know how she feels about this very bizarre photo op. You know, there are other examples, too, obviously, of the Trump administration going, like, all in on men's sports, even as they give lip service to caring about women's sports. You had FBI Director Cash Patel partying it up with the men's Olympic hockey team when he was, you know, ostensibly on the ground in Italy to look into security issues or. Yeah, I think I was like, he was looking into security issues several weeks into the Olympics.

Sarah Matthews (9:58)

Sure, sure. Yeah. It just happened to be time for when the Olympic gold medal game would be for the US Men's hockey. And also, that reminds me, too. I guess this photo op staging of the Georgia women's tennis team isn't all that surprising, considering Trump on that phone call that Cash made to the president in the men's locker room after they won the gold, where Trump joked about, and I say joked about having to invite the US Women's team to the White House, even though they had accomplished the exact same thing and won the gold medal as well at the Olympics. And he didn't want to have to invite them. I must tell you, we're gonna have to bring the woman's team. So it just shows his attitude about women's sports. He doesn't give a shit.

Katherine Rampel (10:43)

Yeah, obviously he doesn't give a shit. It's only useful to him as a wedge issue in tapping into the potential bigotry of voters who might therefore be motivated to get out to the polls because they think that Donald Trump is protecting their interests against the evil trans athletes who they've probably never even come into contact with. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, the cynicism of all of this is just so obvious. So obvious, and yet he gets away with it every time.

Sarah Matthews (11:18)

I know it. You know, it makes me think of, you know, when people are like, oh, you like that band? You know, name five songs. It's like, if I were to pose that question to Donald Trump and be like, okay, name five female athletes, I bet you he could not. Bet my bottom dollar he could not. And so, yeah, you're right, though. He just wants to use this as a wedge issue when it's useful for him. And it is a motivating factor for some people. Even though, you know, it's a little surprising why I. People care so much about it, considering it affects such a small, small majority of the population. And, like, I'm someone who's of the belief, too. Like, it's a gray area where it is a tricky. You want it, you know, these sports to be fair. And there is something to be said about biological men having a little bit of an advantage. And so I get why it could rile people up. But, like, I feel like we have bigger issues in this country that we should be more focused on. But for some reason, this has been one of those things that has fired people. But just can't imagine, though, that people actually believe that this administration really cares about women's sports.

Katherine Rampel (12:24)

Yeah, they've had many opportunities to demonstrate their interest in these athletics. And when push comes to shove, they're partying in the men's locker room and. And not shaking the hands of the female athletes. That's the choice that they have made.

Sarah Matthews (12:42)

And they proudly posted this. That's what's even more hilarious is, like, Margo Martin was the White House aide who posted this. And, like, if people are unfamiliar with who Margo Martin is, she's one of the. She basically follows around the president and posts photos of him on her social media. Like, that is her job is to be at his side and document these kinds of candid moments and share them with the public. And so she travels with him everywhere. And she proudly posted this thinking this was a win. Like, in that video, I think she captioned it something about go dogs, because, you know, this was the Georgia women's tennis team. And I'm like, how do you not realize the optics of this are not good for you? Like, you're supposed to be a comms person, and no one at the White House thought, hmm, maybe we need to rearrange this photo, or maybe we shouldn't post this video where he's only shaking the hands of the men and not the women that they're supposed to be honoring.

Katherine Rampel (13:39)

Yeah, I don't know. It's bizarre. Were you at the White House when Trump had other athletic teams come through? Like, I remember there was a time when, like, a football team that came through and he had the big spread of Big Macs and things like that. Were you there for that?

Sarah Matthews (13:56)

I think that all was before my time because I was there the last seven or eight months of the administration, and it was Covid times. And so it wasn't like we were hosting as many things at the White House and having those kinds of events happening. And he was on the campaign trail a lot. So I, if, if there was a sports team that visited, I can't. I can't recall, but obviously I think I try to block out a lot of that time that I spent at the White House, too. So it could be that.

Katherine Rampel (14:24)

Yeah, well, I guess my point is that they don't have a great track record in general at cultivating these kinds of photo ops and a total lack of self awareness. It also occurred to me that when Donald Trump had said on the phone with Kash Patel, like, I guess I now have to invite the women's team, didn't the women's team say, no, thank you, we are not interested in attending? And then that's. That caused him to flip out, too, as I recall.

Sarah Matthews (14:49)

Yeah, no, I respected the hell out of them for that, of them declining the invitation because, you know, I will give the Georgia women's tennis team a little bit of grace here because, you know, these are young college athletes, and if you've never been to the White House and you get an invite to the White House no matter who the president is and you're young, I could see that being a really neat experience. So it's like It's a great honor.

Katherine Rampel (15:12)

Yeah, it should be.

Sarah Matthews (15:14)

It should be. You know, you would think maybe their experience wasn't quite the same as it should have been, but I do give them a little bit of grace there. I think I saw a lot of comments on viral posts about that. You know, this photo of people saying, why would they even go to the White House? And how dare them? And it's like, okay, like, I get it. You know, I, I personally probably wouldn't have gone if, say, I were in that similar boat as them, but I understand people wanting to go to the White House, wanting to have that experience, but I thought for the U.S. women's hockey team that it was really like badass of them to just be like, now we're good, we don't need to go like, you insulted us. No, we're not going.

Katherine Rampel (15:54)

Yeah, I think the difference there was that Trump insulted them on the front end like before they got there, and here he's insulting these female athletes on the back end, or at least while they are doing their photo op, refusing to shake their hands, putting them on the risers behind all of the men. I mean, I don't know, I guess if we interviewed some of those tennis players, maybe they still thought it was worth it. It is very cool and magical to visit the White House regardless of who's holding the office. So I don't blame them, certainly.

Sarah Matthews (16:25)

No, exactly. But it's just like shame on this White House for giving them that experience of not making them feel like they were the most important people in that room and putting them front and not putting them front and center in that photo op. It's just so silly and I don't know why the coaches also wouldn't really advocate for their female players of like, oh, no, like, you guys should be the one sitting next to the President. We'll get in the back. But I, who knows? And you know, it could have been a White House staffer that arranged the photo. It could have been the White House photographer. But you would think that any photographer would have, you know, known that this wasn't a good looking arrangement. So. Makes me think it was a staffer. But, but it really, it just boggled my mind that they, they proudly posted this.

Katherine Rampel (17:13)

Yeah, I know everything about it. It's just, it's like a small thing. It's not as consequential as potential war crimes and curbing civil liberties and all of that, but it's a very telling moment. And I think that's why it's worth kind of unpacking a little bit, particularly in the context of all of this lip service and campaigning about women's sports and how much he cares about women's sports. All right, President Trump, the president to sa women's sports. But when push comes to shove, he's mostly saving them from ever being seen. Thanks so much Sarah for your time. I should give a shout out also to some of our colleagues. The Bulwark is heading on the road next month. Sam, Tim and Sarah are going to San Diego and LA next month. Make sure to get your tickets@the bulwark.com events. They're selling out, but we would love to see you there. Thanks everyone and see you next time on the Bulwark.

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