Bulwark Takes – “Trump Called This Fraud—While Doing It Himself”

Date: December 9, 2025
Host: Tim Miller (The Bulwark)
Guest: Justin Elliott (ProPublica reporter)

Episode Overview

This episode dives into a recent investigative story by Justin Elliott (ProPublica), revealing that Donald Trump himself engaged in the exact type of mortgage activity he and his allies have aggressively labeled as “fraud” when accusing political opponents. The discussion unpacks the legal, political, and ethical dimensions of these allegations—especially highlighting the glaring hypocrisy at play, where standards applied to critics and rivals are ignored when similar actions are discovered within Trump’s own record.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Origin of the Investigation

[01:30–02:22]

• Justin Elliott explains the story’s beginnings: after Trump allies (notably Bill Pulte in the federal government) accused several political enemies of mortgage fraud, they began combing through public mortgage records.
• Elliott and his team thought to examine whether Trump or his own cabinet engaged in “fraud” by their own definitions.

“This is a story about Trump committing what Trump describes as fraud. And I think that's, that's an important distinction.” – Justin Elliott [02:22]

2. What is ‘Principal Residence Mortgage Fraud’?

[03:39–05:36]

• Most standard U.S. mortgages contain a clause requiring the property to be used as the buyer’s “principal residence” within 60 days and maintained as such for at least a year.
• Lenders offer slightly better rates for these mortgages, seeing owner-occupied homes as less risky.
• Trump and Bill Pulte have charged critics with fraud for having two simultaneous “principal residence” mortgages, claiming it as evidence of deception.

“If you simultaneously have two of these mortgages where you signed this document that said the property in question would be your principal residence, then that is...on its own grounds for a criminal referral and criminal investigation, of course.” – Justin Elliott [06:26]

3. Why the Fraud Allegations Don’t Hold Water Legally

[06:36–07:58]

• Mortgage lawyers say the Pulte/Trump standard is flawed; there are many legitimate reasons a person might temporarily hold two “principal residence” mortgages (such as relocation for a new job before selling the old home).
• Many public mortgage documents provide only a partial picture.

“There are non-public documents that would fundamentally change the understanding of what the lender knew.” – Justin Elliott [08:23]

• In Lisa Cook’s case (Fed Governor), additional, non-public documents showed she’d told the lender about her homes being used as vacation properties.

4. Trump’s Personal Hypocrisy

[09:46–10:14]

• Trump signed two “principal residence” mortgages in late 1993 and early 1994—seven weeks apart—on homes next to Mar-a-Lago in Palm Beach, Florida.
• Evidence (rental listings, agent testimony) indicates Trump never lived in these homes as a primary residence; he always rented them out.

“She said, you know, we quote her on the record in the story saying, these were rentals from the beginning. Trump never lived there. And so this easily exceeds the Trump Pulte standard for criminal mortgage fraud.” – Justin Elliott [10:09]

5. The Impracticality of Prosecution (and the Politics)

[12:02–14:33]

• Tim Miller leans into the hypocrisy, mock-calling for Trump’s prosecution under his own standards:

“As you said, he signed...seven weeks apart...and the real estate agent said that he never lived there...seems to me like Donald Trump, by his own...standard, broke the law here.” – Tim Miller [12:07]

• Elliott counters: real mortgage fraud cases are rare and require actual intent to deceive the lender—often not established by public documents alone.
• The original lender (Merrill Lynch) no longer exists; no additional documentation about Trump’s intentions has surfaced.

6. Selective Enforcement and Hypocrisy

[14:33–16:45]

• Bill Pulte and allies have publicly promised to pursue anyone (Republican or Democrat) over such mortgage discrepancies, but thus far, only political rivals (primarily Democrats—Lisa Cook, Letitia James, Adam Schiff, Eric Swalwell) have been targeted by aggressive actions.
• ProPublica found four Trump cabinet members, plus Trump himself, with similar mortgage arrangements.

“But at this point it has universally...been about Democrats. We report, as I mentioned earlier, we reported three Trump Cabinet members had this. Trump himself has it.” – Justin Elliott [15:25]

• Many politicians (due to multiple homes and job-related moves) likely have similar mortgage histories, making the selective prosecutions clearly political.

“It didn't take us that long to find three cabinet members who had this...if somebody set out to look at members of Congress who...are spending time in D.C. and also in their home districts, you would probably find dozens of examples.” – Justin Elliott [16:03]

7. The Story’s Takeaway

[16:45–17:23]

• The main point: Trump and his administration weaponize technicalities that are common (and legally benign) as a partisan bludgeon, while ignoring or excusing the same conduct by themselves and their allies.

“Their prosecutions of the Democrats are silly and that they are also guilty of the things they accuse them of. It's kind of, that's really what it comes down to.” – Tim Miller [16:45]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• [02:22] Justin Elliott: “This is a story about Trump committing what Trump describes as fraud. And I think that's, that's an important distinction.”
• [06:26] Justin Elliott: “If you simultaneously have two of these mortgages...that is...on its own grounds for a criminal referral and criminal investigation, of course.”
• [10:09] Justin Elliott: “These were rentals from the beginning. Trump never lived there. And so this easily exceeds the Trump Pulte standard for criminal mortgage fraud.”
• [12:07] Tim Miller: “Seems to me like Donald Trump, by his own...standard, broke the law here and that we should have a referral to an independent Justice Department.”
• [16:03] Justin Elliott: “It didn’t take us that long to find three cabinet members who had this...you would probably find dozens of examples.”
• [16:45] Tim Miller: “Their prosecutions of the Democrats are silly and that they are also guilty of the things they accuse them of.”

Important Segment Timestamps

• [01:30] – Intro to Justin Elliott and the story’s background
• [02:22] – Defining the “fraud” as Trump/Team Trump describes it
• [05:36] – How “principal residence” clauses work
• [09:46] – Trump’s own mortgage documents: the specifics
• [12:02] – Discussion on intent, practicality and real world prosecution challenges
• [14:33] – Selective enforcement and the political nature of these prosecutions
• [16:03] – How common the “violation” really is among politicians
• [16:45] – Final takeaway: hypocrisy and weaponization of technicalities

Conclusion

The episode offers a detailed, clear-eyed examination of a hypocrisy at the heart of recent “mortgage fraud” attacks by Trump and his associates. They have accused political enemies of wrongdoing, calling for criminal referrals for actions that, by their standards, Trump himself clearly committed—and that are, in fact, extremely common (and legally banal) among property owners and politicians. The episode highlights both the absurdity and danger of selective, bad-faith legal attacks in today’s political landscape.