Podcast Summary: Bulwark Takes

Episode: Trump Can’t Pardon State Crimes. He’s Trying Anyway. (w/ Liz Oyer)
Date: November 11, 2025
Host: Sam Stein
Guest: Liz Oyer (Former DOJ Pardon Attorney)

Overview

This episode examines Donald Trump’s ongoing and highly controversial use of the presidential pardon power, focusing on his recent attempts to pardon individuals for state crimes—something constitutionally prohibited. Host Sam Stein is joined by Liz Oyer, former pardon attorney for the Department of Justice, to break down the unprecedented legal strategies and the broader damage to the rule of law, accountability, and public trust in the pardon process.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Trump’s Escalation in Pardon Practices

• Trump’s Approach: Oyer argues Trump has used the pardon power in "unprecedented" and "incredibly destructive" ways, including corrupt and self-serving pardons, lack of proper vetting, and pardons that directly undermine democratic norms, particularly around elections.
  • Quote:

    “Donald Trump has used the pardon power in ways that are unprecedented in our history and that have been incredibly destructive to the rule of law and to public confidence...” (02:14, Liz Oyer)

2. Pardoning State Crimes—A Constitutional Violation

• Background: Recent news broke that Trump issued pardons to high-profile allies (e.g., John Eastman, Rudy Giuliani, Jenna Ellis) for actions connected to trying to overturn the 2020 election—despite these being state crimes.
• Legal Limits: The constitution only allows presidential pardons for federal, not state, offenses. Trump's move is "testing the boundaries" of executive authority.
  • Quote:

    “The one limit that the Constitution clearly places on the pardon power is that it's limited to offenses against the United States, which means federal crime. No president has ever tried to pardon state law crimes before...” (03:25, Liz Oyer)

• Ed Martin Memo: Ed Martin, the current pardon attorney, is pushing legal theories to justify state-crime pardons, attempting to reframe state unlawful acts surrounding elections as having a ‘federal nature’.
  • Quote:

    "He is not somebody who really even seems to have a basic understanding of how the Constitution works, how the pardon power works..." (05:31, Liz Oyer)

3. Mechanics and Fallout of the State Crime Pardons

• Possible Legal Challenges: Oyer anticipates affected individuals will try to use these pardons to escape state charges but doubts courts would validate them.
  • Quote:

    “I can't imagine that any court could really credibly find that the pardon does have that legal effect...” (07:03, Liz Oyer)

• Extraordinary Breadth: The pardon is not limited to individuals named, potentially extending to “any offense in furtherance of overthrowing the results of the 2020 election.”
  • Quote:

    "It is very extraordinarily broadly worded. So we probably will be seeing the fallout of this for a long time." (08:03, Liz Oyer)

• Ed Martin’s Role: The current pardon attorney has sweeping discretion to issue certificates under the pardon, bestowing enormous influence on a Trump loyalist.

4. Self-Dealing and Corruption in Trump’s Pardons

• Overview of Recent Pardons:
  • Pardons given to political loyalists, financial backers, and figures involved in personal or political scandals (e.g., Changpeng Zhao, George Santos, Sheriff Scott Jenkins, Tennessee Republican lawmakers).
  • Oyer observes a pattern of Trump pardoning those who echo his personal or political behavior—corruption, self-dealing, or personal misconduct.
  • Quote (on Changpeng Zhao):

    "This is somebody who facilitated a $2 billion investment into Trump's family... as a result of that, he seems to have gotten a presidential pardon, despite the fact that he doesn't meet any of the standards..." (10:12, Liz Oyer)

  • Quote (general pattern):

    “Trump pardons a lot of people in whom he sees something of himself, I think... He really has created a pay for play system and he's pardoning other people who commit the same type of political corruption...” (11:49, Liz Oyer)

5. Normalization and Political Consequences

• Pardons as Routine: Stein and Oyer discuss how Trump, by issuing controversial pardons routinely, risks making corrupt and self-serving pardons seem normal, eroding outrage and checks from other political actors.
  • Quote:

    “You are inundated with an avalanche of controversies and you begin to get almost calloused to it. Where you stop thinking, oh my God, what the hell is this so controversial? And you begin to think of it as sort of the standard operating procedure.” (14:44, Sam Stein)

• Lack of Accountability: Oyer is surprised by the absence of bipartisan pushback, despite the blatant corruption.
  • Quote:

    “It's surprising to me that the Republicans in Congress are letting this all go because it is so just transparently corrupt. Yet nobody's asking for any accountability on either side about these pardons...” (14:44, Liz Oyer)

6. Pardons as Leverage and Messaging to Allies

• Rewarding Loyalty & Ensuring Silence: Pardons are now openly viewed as rewards for loyalty (or silence), signaling to supporters and potential wrongdoers that Trump “has their back” if they commit crimes on his behalf.
  • Quote:

    “It's about messaging. It's saying, to those who commit crimes in the name of Donald Trump, I've got your back... That certainly emboldens people to do more of that.” (17:21, Liz Oyer)

• Consolidation of Power: The open-market nature of pardons increases Trump’s leverage—individuals are incentivized to offer donations, support, or services in exchange for legal protection.
  • Quote:

    “By doing it early, he's putting himself in a position where he now has pretty much everybody who's committed a federal crime around the country scrambling to figure out how they can get a presidential pardon.” (14:44, Liz Oyer)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “He is selling special treatment to people who can afford it. And that's happening in the pardon space.” (11:49, Liz Oyer)
• “In Donald Trump's world, you know, you can be a sexual harasser, or you can be a racist or a cheater or a liar and unrepentant about it, and you can still get the benefit of a presidential pardon.” (13:50, Liz Oyer)
• “We got to get some pardon reform in the future.” (18:03, Sam Stein)

Timestamps for Major Segments

• Trump’s Pardon Practices – Overview: 02:14
• Pardoning State Crimes: 03:25
• Ed Martin Memo and Legal Theories: 04:26 – 05:31
• Legal Response & Ed Martin’s Power: 07:03 – 08:53
• Recent High-Profile Pardons: 09:14 – 11:49
• Discussion of Normalization: 14:44
• Pardons as Leverage/Signaling: 17:21

Tone and Language

The conversation is candid, deeply concerned, and occasionally incredulous, reflecting the abnormality of the current use of presidential pardons. Both Stein and Oyer maintain a critical but fact-based tone, highlighting the gravity of the legal and political situation.

Conclusion

Liz Oyer and Sam Stein present a disturbing portrait of the modern presidential pardon process under Trump: legally dubious, transactional, and dangerously normalized. The episode closes with a call for accountability and reform, warning that unchecked pardon practices undermine the rule of law and empower future abuses.