B (2:48)

Yeah, it was an injured knee. So he had his get out of jail free card, so to speak, you get out of Vietnam free card if you wanted to. But he chose and he volunteered for

C (2:56)

green, coincidentally, which is not, you know, not the. That was a. That was a ticket to combat. It was not a ticket to where you could hope to, I don't think, you know, serve in, you know, offshore or back in the US and stuff. So served very honorably there, of course. Really distinguished career, genuine public service. People use that term, so much public service. We're all kind of inured to it. You know, everyone who serves in every hack who's in Congress, it's been great honor to have public service. But Robert Mueller, I always make fun

B (3:21)

of spokespeople who say, you know, it was. It was an honor to serve for the senator. I was like, you wrote press releases. Okay, you weren't. So that's. That's okay to not.

C (3:30)

He really was a public servant. He had a very successful legal career and stepped away from that to take, you know, difficult jobs and jobs where you get, I mean, they're rewarding, I think, if you do them well for you personally and for people who know you, but not their jobs. But there's a lot of, you know, criticism that comes with it, both as FBI director and then obviously as special counsel. Really an admirable man.

B (3:49)

Yeah. And served under both, you know, presidents of both parties, really, just in service of the country and the FBI director slot. And just to sit on the Russia investigation thing, that, as you mentioned, he was asked to be the special investigator, special prosecutor, knew that that was going to be a hell of a job, that there was going to be tons of criticism, tons of heat on him. You know, did not have to do that. You know, this was not. This is not like. Not that it would be any better for Trump to dishonor him in death. But this is not a case of, like, someone like us, you know, somebody who chose to, like, oppose Donald Trump politically and have that be the center of their life. That was not what Robert Mueller was doing. He was trying to get to the truth of what happened when, you know, one of our greatest geopolitical foes did interfere in the election. And trying to figure out the extent to which they did and the extent to which it was coordinated and they uncovered a lot of people that did real crimes under. Undermining our elections.

C (4:45)

Yeah, and real undermining, even if it didn't quite, you know, make the level of provable criminality. No, he had retired from the FBI, I guess it would have been around age, close to age 70, maybe just very, very late 60s. Had been retired, I think three or four years. Was in private practice in his early 70s. He was asked to do this by the Republican, by the Trump administration, ironically, Trump Justice Department. Right. Under, under Sessions, I guess Sessions had recused himself. That would have been Rosenstein. And, and he thought he should do this for the sake of the country. He was 72ish, I'm going to guess 70, something like that, if I got the math right. Certainly didn't have to do this and certainly could have honorably passed and said, you know, get someone a little younger or someone or whatever, you know. Instead he thought, you know, this is important for the country. So we got a report, did it

B (5:29)

by the book, you know, uncovered that there was a lot of cheering, you know, and Republicans desiring to want Russia to cheat on their behalf, attempts for that to happen. Meetings were made, furtive outreach that was made. You know, then they obviously, you know, some of the lesser known names, you know, they identified people in foreign national that had committed crimes. He puts out a detailed report. He gets kind of sandbagged by Bill Barr who front runs it. But he put out a report that even the current Secretary of State, Marco Rubio at the time, you know, said was credible. An important, you know, document as far as accountability was concerned, you know, but also in a historic document.

C (6:11)

I did it by the book. Remember, some of our friends were a little annoyed at him because he didn't quite say he should therefore be impeached or therefore be indicted. He said it's up to the Congress. This is a report of the facts that we have determined. You know, so a real by the book rule of law, man.

B (6:27)

All right, here was what Donald Trump said about it. Posted this on Truth Social. Robert Mueller just died. Good, I'm glad he's dead. He can no longer hurt innocent people. President Donald J. Trump, obviously there was a brouhaha when Rob Reiner was murdered a couple of months ago now, where Trump made like a joke about how it was his TDS that that Led to it really inappropriate joke and wrong. But not, this is even far beyond that. I mean, just to extremely bluntly say, I'm glad he's dead, 81 year old career public servant veteran who had Parkinson's disease. It's like unimaginable that you would say that about anyone.

C (7:11)

It is, actually. I mean, nothing's unimaginable, obviously, in the era of Trump and in the character of Trump, but it is on the edge of, you know, the worst things he said and the most grotesque. I mean, hate to even say this is such a, we've said this so many times, but will any of his supporters, will any of the Republican members, senators who voted to confirm Robert Mueller, I guess more than once, right. And who knew him and others who served in the Trump Justice Department, people like Bill Barr, who knew him, will they say, will they praise Mueller? Will they chastise Trump for what he has said? Will there be anyone who attempts to preserve any sense of dignity and respect for people who serve their country in public life?

B (7:57)

Who knows? Maybe somebody will. They'll disappoint us. You know, to me, the thing that I always look out when you see this type of behavior because it's like how many times have we talked about how Trump has dishonored himself in the country, in the office? It starts to lose its, you know, its power and its oomph. But you know, this is the type of thing that's like in any other type of field, if, you know, a person had said that, you know, posts something about this and we saw, frankly, we saw this with Charlie Kirk. Let's use this as an example. I mean, there was like a crazy, like kind of right wing witch hunt for people that were saying things about Charlie Kirk. But there are also people that legitimately lost their jobs and probably should have because they posted really grotesque things. And if you're a teacher at a school, the principal or the board, it's going to look at this and say, you can't be posting on social media, cheering on people's deaths. Not to compare Charlie Kirk to Robert Mueller, but just like the principle of the matter, if you saw this from someone in your life, a friend, a family member, posting on social media, I'm glad they're dead. About people, I would think that you would want to have a talk with them, at least say put it down. But it's just not the type of thing that'd be acceptable in any kind of public position. And it's the type of thing that unfortunately our president has engaged in over and over again now with maybe being this, this being the worst example possibly,

C (9:20)

you know, when I, when I saw the news of his death just a little bit ago and then, and then a little bit later what Trump had said, I would, you said okay if I read four or five lines from Yates, this wonderful news.

B (9:30)

Oh, please. Well, that's not just okay. I would have, I would not have invited you to do this video with me if it were not for some Yates, because that's, that's not something I can bring to the table. So, you know, that's, we need to

C (9:42)

bring it normally, believe me, I'm, I'm, no, I don't normally bring it to the table. But this is that one poem I've just been struck by for a long time. It's, I think it's called To a Friend Whose Work Has Come to Nothing. It's very reasonably short poem by, by Yates. And here are just a few lines which I've used a couple, few times in my time in Washington when things have not things that were admirable and I thought done with good intentions and by honorable people came to naught. And that's, I suppose, the case with the Mueller report. Here's Yates for how can you compete being honor bred with one who word proved he lies were neither shamed in his own nor in his neighbor's eyes? It's extremely apt, isn't it? Kind of remarkable. Yeah, it is.

B (10:26)

It is. I'm just like looking at it now. That's kind of a sad place to leave it, Bill. I don't want to leave it at that because it is. Is there not a counter? Does Yates offer us a counter? Is there not a way to compete with being honor bred, with those who refuse to be shamed by their own lies and behavior?

C (10:47)

Well, I think there are others who have been behaved honorably and many of them perhaps inspired by the example of Robert Mueller. I have never discussed Mueller with Liz Cheney. I don't think someone like that or the people who sacrifice, you know, their careers that are checking along at a very high level to say what they thought was the truth and what was important to be said about Donald Trump. And not just Liz Cheney, but many others, obviously. Many of them much less well known. Many of them people who worked for Mueller, had worked for Mueller at the FBI. Many younger people who served on different investigations at the Justice Department and then got fired and that who now they're trying to blackball them from getting hired by firms and stuff. So, no, no, I, you got to believe what. What someone like Mueller dying and Trump being president does make someone like me wonder about whether the what's the great Martin Luther King line that the arc of the moral universe bends towards justice. Yes. I don't know.

B (11:40)

Feels like it's bent. It feels like it's taken a backwards turn for a little while, but it's going.

C (11:45)

It's got a. One trusts it will bend back in the right way and that most importantly people will see to it that it bends back in the right way. And really people I would encourage younger people who everyone forgets for us the MOA thing was so important. It was one of the reasons Sarah and I and you were involved too at the beginning, near the beginning at least and started various efforts to Republicans for the rule of law to try to defend them. Other investigation looked like Trump was going to fire him. He never actually did Bar as you say, front ran if that's the right word to report in ways that was helped mute its significance. But you know, this is something it's only eight, nine years ago. Right. So younger people who didn't know about Mueller and for whom it's just a vague memory should just go read the biography of him. So in that respect I think he can't have. Yes. One has to trust that he will

B (12:29)

have an effect, positive effect and to steal from your tribe. I do think his memory will be a blessing as well, which may not be true for our current president. Mueller leaves behind two daughters and three grandchildren. I just pulled this up. It's interesting. He also had known Barr for a long time and Mueller had attended the weddings of Barr's daughters and their wives attend Bible study together which.

C (12:58)

Yeah.

B (12:59)

Questions about Bill Barr.

C (13:01)

I'm told that people close to Muller, I mean well, he was such a man. It's so much dignity. He never to my knowledge attack bar he testified for Congress maybe. I can't remember. He may have implicitly criticized him. He certainly didn't go around giving speeches as he could have the next few years before his health took a real turn for the worst. You know, make, you know, you know, being a leader of the criticism of Trombo. He thought he had done his job. He had returned to public service for that one last thing and he really was quiet. And no book. No, no. So that, you know, again shows the kind of impressive dignity. I'll just say one maybe personal thing. I, I didn't. I'd met him a few times in Washington. I didn't really know him. I spoke at St. John's Church, which is the church right at Lafayette Square, which, you know, right near the White House.

B (13:45)

So Trump held the Bible upside down in front of the church.

C (13:47)

Yeah, which I felt. So I spoke a little before that. I guess it was after that. I can't remember. They had some guest speaker series. It was, you know, just at the end of the service, they had someone come in and speak about public events. And obviously I wasn't partisan. I tried not to be political. I don't think I mentioned Trump's name. I talked about the, you know, just that something like the eights theme, I mean, that honor is important and we underrate how important character is and how much the American system works on the honor system and the honor code and yeah, whatever. Is utterly, honestly, pretty conventional remarks, very short. And it turned out I hadn't been aware that was the church to which Robert Mueller and his wife belonged. And they were there and it came up afterwards and we had a very nice, you know, very pleasant to 90 second talk. But I, I felt somewhat, I don't know, gratified that he knew. I mean, I didn't mention his name, I didn't mention Trump's name, but I hope he felt that I did justice to what the kind of life he had left, the kind of public service he had, he had engaged in and the kind of country that he believed in for.

B (14:47)

How can you compete being honor bred with one who, where it proved he lies, were neither shamed in his own nor his neighbor's eyes? That's a tough one. All right, R.I.P. robert Mueller, Bill, thanks for that and for jumping on with us. Everybody else, Bill will be back tomorrow. You have a lot of Bill coming. Bill will be back tomorrow. He has a Sunday live.

C (15:08)

All right. I was trying to think until Monday, but then I thought, oh, yes, I have that other show tomorrow.

B (15:12)

Yeah. With Kathryn Rampel.

C (15:13)

With Kathryn Rampel. On the economic consequences of the Iran war and where we might be going in the economy.

B (15:19)

One o' clock in the east and then Bill and I will be back on Monday. So we'll see you all then. Subscribe to the feed Have a great weekend.

A (15:24)

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