Trump Completely Loses It During Bizarre NBC Interview

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Bulwark Takes

Episode: Trump Completely Loses It During Bizarre NBC Interview
Date: June 7, 2026
Hosts: Tim Miller & Matt (The Bulwark)

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on Tim Miller and Matt reacting to Donald Trump’s much-discussed and chaotic NBC/Meet the Press interview with Kristen Welker. The conversation dissects Trump’s evasive, combative, and false claims on topics ranging from the ongoing war and American foreign policy to gas prices, support for farmers, the infamous January 6th insurrection, and persistent allegations of election fraud. The Bulwark hosts provide critical commentary, call out misinformation, and reflect on the broader ramifications for American democracy.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Scene: Trump's "Blockade" and the "War" with Iran

[02:13 - 04:05]

• Trump attempts to redefine the ongoing military blockade with Iran, calling it "not a war" and sidestepping interview questions about U.S. military engagement.
• Tim and Matt highlight Trump’s shifting demands and the administration’s lack of a clear exit strategy, noting,
  • Trump’s previous insistence on “unconditional surrender” now appears unserious.
  • The blockade is proving ineffective as both U.S. and Iranian ships are still able to traverse the Strait of Hormuz.
• Quote:
  • “I don’t define it at all. I don’t think about it. I just do what I have to do.”
    — Donald Trump ([02:14])
  • “He’s been totally humiliated...a level of weakness, like unseen from a president in recent memory.”
    — Tim Miller ([02:47])

2. Troop Deployment, War Costs, and Transparency

[04:09 - 06:44]

• Trump claims it "costs very little" to keep 50,000 U.S. troops deployed, dismisses the danger they face, and makes vague promises about an eventual "completion."
• Tim and Matt fact-check Trump, pointing to:
  • U.S. troop casualties and injuries, hidden from the public eye.
  • The massive, ongoing financial cost—both direct war spending and broader economic impacts.
• Quote:
  • “He also says it costs us very little to keep them there. Also not true. It is costing us ungodly amounts of money.”
    — Tim Miller ([05:42])

3. Gas Prices and Farmer Hardships

[06:59 - 10:51]

• Trump is pressed on skyrocketing gas and fertilizer costs, and responds with self-congratulation rather than solutions.
• The hosts point out Trump’s misleading claims about gas prices coming down if the war ends and his $28B “handout” to farmers as a misguided point of pride.
• On-the-ground context: The interview was conducted at a Wisconsin farm during a rainstorm, adding to the chaotic atmosphere.
• Quotes:
  • “Am I allowed to talk? You keep asking questions and you don’t listen to the answers. I love the farmers and the farmers love me and the farmers trust me.”
    — Donald Trump ([07:37])
  • “A lot of those farmers are having some regrets right now… This stuff is not… coming down for a long time.”
    — Matt ([08:08])

4. The “Weaponization Fund” for January 6th Defendants

[13:13 - 18:15]

• Trump expresses support for a fund to aid January 6th rioters, painting them as victims of government persecution, and makes dubious claims about suicides and destroyed lives.
• The hosts express outrage, pointing out:
  • Far greater suffering and suicides among law enforcement officers defending the Capitol.
  • The dangerous inversion of victim/perpetrator in Trump’s narrative.
• Quotes:
  • “So me personally, I think the weaponization fund is a great idea and so do many other Republicans.”
    — Donald Trump ([13:59])
  • “The only people he has empathy for [are] the people that he duped into storming the Capitol… There were some other suicides after January 6th.”
    — Tim Miller ([16:06])

5. The Meltdown: Election Lies and Walking Off the Interview

[19:01 - 20:27]

• Trump becomes increasingly combative, repeating broad, disproven conspiracies about rigged elections, personally insulting the interviewer (“you’re crooked or you’re stupid”), and ends the interview abruptly.
• The hosts analyze:
  • The contradiction of a sitting president claiming the system that elected him—twice—is “rigged.”
  • Trump’s inability to see himself as president for all Americans (“your elections,” not “our elections”).
  • How these tactics cultivate distrust and animosity in the democratic process.
• Quotes:
  • “Your elections are crooked, and you’re crooked and Meet the Press is crooked.”
    — Donald Trump ([19:39])
  • “He is such a piece of and a baby. It’s just kind of unbelievable, honestly, that the American people could put this ass clown in the White House two times.”
    — Matt ([20:27])
  • “Which takes me to the obvious rebuttal...he won twice… It’s so insane that you have a person who had no qualifications, no character, no background to be the president… he became the most powerful man in the world because he won an election fair and square.”
    — Tim Miller ([20:37])

6. The California Vote Counting System

[25:06 - 28:48]

• Discussion shifts to Trump’s attacks on slow ballot counting in California, using it to amplify distrust.
• The hosts agree California’s system is slow but defend its accuracy, and argue
  • The system, while accurate, gives bad actors like Trump ammunition for disinformation.
  • Other states handle both high turnout and rapid, transparent vote counting.
• Quote:
  • “California is just like handing him a weapon to hit them over the head with… to make our democracy more fragile. And I think that that sucks.”
    — Matt ([27:46])

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• On Trump's Absurd Blockade Explanation:
  “You blockade their blockade and then someone blockades your blockade. And if you’re blockading all the blockades, then you’re not really in a war.”
  — Tim Miller ([02:19])

• On Farmer Handouts:
  “So you did farm socialism. Congrats… More theft from the American people and passing along to the farmers that you’ve screwed over with your policies.”
  — Tim Miller ([09:32], [10:18])

• On January 6th Victims:
  “You never hear him have empathy for anybody. It’s like the only people he has empathy for, the people that he duped into storming the Capitol.”
  — Tim Miller ([15:12])

• On Trump's Worldview:
  “He still doesn’t see himself as a representative of all of America...the only thing that his brain is able to think about as a megalomaniac is the things that have to do with himself.”
  — Tim Miller ([22:56], [23:40])

• On California’s Counting System:
  “It’s going to breed distrust when you have somebody like Donald Trump out there—a total piece of shit—who is going to look for every weakness in a system and try to abuse it and manipulate it to his own benefit.”
  — Tim Miller ([26:46])

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Segment Timestamps

| Segment | Start | End | |-----------------------------------------------|-----------|-----------| | Blockade/Iran War Response | 01:33 | 04:05 | | Troops/Cost Discussion | 04:09 | 06:44 | | Farmers, Gas Prices, Fertilizer | 06:59 | 11:47 | | Weaponization Fund/Jan 6th Rhetoric | 13:13 | 18:15 | | Election Meltdown/Leaving Interview | 19:01 | 20:27 | | California Counting & Broader Democracy | 25:06 | 28:48 |

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Closing Thoughts

Tim and Matt deliver a scathing, well-substantiated critique of Trump’s interview performance, highlighting the dangers of misinformation, demagoguery, and institutional fragility in American democracy. The episode stands out for its blend of fact-checking, sharp wit, and genuine concern for the country’s future—a must-listen/summary for anyone following U.S. politics in 2026.

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Transcript

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[Tim Miller]

Hey everybody. Tim Miller from the Bulwark. Here it is Sunday afternoon. I hope you had a Sunday morning like me. I got to sleep in a little bit.

[Matt]

I played with my daughter, we shot some hoops, I went to my ladies weights class. We got some smoothies.

[Tim Miller]

And amidst all this, Meet the Press was airing an interview with the President of the United States, Donald Trump. People kept telling me how crazy it was, how insane he seems.

[Donald Trump]

And you're crooked and Meet the Press is crooked and so is abc.

[Tim Miller]

And so rather than know go back and punish myself with that, I figured that I would just come here and blind react to the interview with you guys. I'm hoping that many of you also

[Matt]

had a lovely Sunday morning like I did and didn't spend it watching Donald Trump. And for those of you who are

[Tim Miller]

like me, we can kind of just experience this together. My guy Matt is here.

[Matt]

He didn't have a great morning. He suffered through the Donald Trump interview and others.

[Tim Miller]

And so he's put together, you know, some of the lowlights, if you will. And so why don't we go through them one, one at a time. Here's the President of the United States

[Matt]

on Meet the Press this morning with Kristen Welker.

[Tim Miller]

The first clip.

[Matt]

Wait, I don't know what it's about. You show me.

[Kristen Welker]

So is this a war as long as there's a naval blockade in place?

[Donald Trump]

Well, we have a blockade. It's been extremely effective. And the reason we have it is they try to blockade. And now we blockaded them and as you know, they're losing 4 to $500 million a day. It's not sustainable for them. They have an economy that's shot in addition to everything else. Their leaders are gone, their generals are gone, their first tier and second tier are gone. Much of their third tier is gone. But they put up a blockade and so we blockaded them and we have the ultimate blockade. I don't consider that a war, but if you want to define it as such, I guess you can.

[Kristen Welker]

Well, how do you define it?

[Donald Trump]

I don't define it at all. I don't think about it. I just do what I have to do.

[Tim Miller]

I don't think about it. This is how blockades work, right? You know, you just blockade their blockade and then someone else blockades your blockade. And if you're blockading all the blockades, then you're not really in a war. It doesn't really solve any of the issues. And I think that what you hear there from Trump is him trying to offer, I think what he thinks is

[Matt]

his off ramp from this war.

[Tim Miller]

He doesn't want to go back in.

[Matt]

He's been totally humiliated.

[Tim Miller]

It is now about 100 days since he demanded unconditional surrender from Iran for the war to end. Since then, we have been negotiating with them. We've been the ones that are changing our demands and lessening our demands. We're nowhere near unconditional surrender. Trump has been completely embarrassed. It's been a level of weakness, like unseen from a president in recent memory. And think about all the times that

[Matt]

the Fox guys and the hawks went after Obama for not following his red line in Syria.

[Tim Miller]

That is nothing compared to this when

[Matt]

it comes to not backing up your words from a military standpoint.

[Tim Miller]

And so what he wants to do to get out of this is he

[Matt]

hopes that they cry uncle via this

[Tim Miller]

blockade, but the blockade isn't really a blockade. You know, the Strait of Hormuz is an open. Both Iranian and American ships are getting through a little bit. There's a trickle of them. They're both coming through. And so, you know, I guess that's, this is his hoping against hope that

[Matt]

he doesn't have to win this war via war. And, you know, that he, there's, you know, he doesn't have to do anything else he doesn't want to do. He's hoping that they just cry uncle because of the blockade and

[Tim Miller]

not see

[Matt]

a lot of evidence that that path is going to work out. But we'll see.

[Tim Miller]

All right, what else we got?

[Kristen Welker]

Saying you would consider sending some of the troops home, sir? Some of the 50,000 troops who were sent there as a part of operation.

[Donald Trump]

It costs us very little to keep them there. I don't consider them in danger. We have the best defense anyone's ever seen. We have the best offense anyone's ever seen. So I don't consider danger. I would say it would be foolhardy to do that because maybe we may use them. It's unlikely, but I think we'll keep them there. Until such time as we have a completion. And when we have a completion, you will see things like you've never seen.

[Matt]

A lot of lies there from the president.

[Tim Miller]

I first just want to start with Kristen Welker. I hate to nitpick, but I don't think the interviewers need to call him sir. He wants to be called sir. He has all of his imaginary sir stories. Why, you don't need to do that. It's not necessary. He's not really. Ike earned that level of respect. Obviously, he's the president, so you can call him that. But it just bugs me a little bit as to Trump's answer. The lies and the troops are in danger. Thirteen troops have died. We don't actually know the extent of all of the injuries that we have from our troops because the government's not being transparent with us.

[Matt]

It seems like it's a lot worse than the public reports show, really, when it comes to, you know, how much damage we've had to our military installations and our material, but also the injuries to troops over there. So they are. They are in danger. That's not. Not true, what he's saying about them not being in danger.

[Tim Miller]

He also says it costs us very little to keep them there. Also not true. It is costing us ungodly amounts of money. It's significant just to keep the war

[Matt]

going is, you know, day by day, is in the billions.

[Tim Miller]

But on top of that, all the damage I just discussed, like, we're gonna have to rebuild our military. We are going to have to go out and procure more bullets and drones and missiles and, like, everything, right, we've incurred a lot of damage. All of that needs to be replenished and rebuilt. And so, like, the costs of this war are. Are extensive, both to the budget of the United States, which is in trouble as it is, but also the cost to the American people, who are paying

[Matt]

higher prices for things because of the war.

[Tim Miller]

So it is costing us a lot to keep.

[Matt]

Keep them there. They are in danger.

[Tim Miller]

And I don't even know what he

[Matt]

means by, when we have a completion, you'll see things we've never seen.

[Tim Miller]

I don't like hearing Donald Trump talking about his completions, but I don't.

[Matt]

I don't think that there's anything coming at the end of this that is in any way benefiting America more so than what the status quo was before the war started. So there we go. What else we got?

[Kristen Welker]

Gases up, diesel is up.

[Donald Trump]

It's all coming down as soon as the war zone.

[Kristen Welker]

70% of farmers say they can't afford fertilizer.

[Donald Trump]

What's your Farmers are doing very well.

[Kristen Welker]

Let me ask you, what is your message to farmers? Many who support you, but who say

[Donald Trump]

they're struggling, who say nobody, but better to farm. You know, I gave farmers last term $28 billion because China took advantage and other people and, you know, paid for China last year. You know, I had a great first term. I had the greatest economy ever. And you know what? This one's blowing it away.

[Kristen Welker]

What's your message to farmers, though, Mr. President, who say they are struggling? They're struggling to make.

[Donald Trump]

Am I allowed to talk?

You keep asking questions and you don't listen to the answers. I love the farmers and the farmers love me and the farmers trust me. In the first term, I had something very similar.

China and others were in Canada, which was brutal.

They were taking advantage of our farmers. They don't take advantage of anymore.

I gave them $28 billion split up. They never had a payday like that.

And the farmers loved me and they came back and they voted for me in record numbers. You know that nobody's ever even come close.

[Tim Miller]

Well, a lot of those farmers are

[Matt]

having some regrets right now, in case you, like me, didn't watch this interview. So apparently this was taking place outside at a farm in Wisconsin. They're trying to have a pro ag messaging event and it started raining. So that was the. On the tin roof there

[Tim Miller]

again, so many lies with what he's saying.

[Matt]

This stuff is not, I mean, I

[Tim Miller]

guess if the war is over, it would come down slightly, but it's not

[Matt]

coming down for a long time. I mean, we've had gas experts here on this channel who will tell you it's going to take at this point into 2027, best case scenario, to get prices down to where they were before. The war has started. The fertilizer crisis is real.

[Tim Miller]

I talked to Josh Turek earlier this week who is running for Senate in Iowa. It's going to be one of the hot Senate races. And he was talking about, you know, from his campaign throughout the state, like a lot of farmers are really concerned about the price of fertilizer, particularly looking ahead to the fall planting season where they're going to be able to afford

[Matt]

to plant, do what they need in order to potentially make a profit or be sustainable with their farms.

[Donald Trump]

Absolutely.

[Josh Turek]

The tariffs have, have crushed our farmers. And that's why we hear betrayal. Trump administration gives $20 billion to Argentina. Meanwhile, our Iowa soybean farmers are upside down on their commodities prices.

[Tim Miller]

It's kind of funny that like the Trump, Trump's Trump has no message for farmers. I don't. You would think that they have come up with something better for a farm themed interview than I did. $28 billion of farmer socialism five years ago. It's like, great, so you did farm socialism. Congrats.

[Matt]

You gave my money people, all the people watching this YouTube video, unless they're a farmer, you gave their hard earned money that they earned. They go to work every day, had to pay a bill to the government. They're struggling. I assume many of you are struggling and would like to have a little extra cash around and your money was taken from you by the government and given as a handout to farmers so they would vote for Donald Trump.

[Tim Miller]

And you know, that little bit of farmer socialism worked. But like, what's the plan?

[Matt]

Are you going to just do that again?

[Tim Miller]

More theft from the American people and

[Matt]

passing along to the farmers that you've screwed over with your policies, Whether they be tariffs, whether they be the stupid war it is, you know, totally

[Tim Miller]

without

[Matt]

any substance or merit. I mean, this is what I was talking to Turek about. Like, the only rationale for somebody in farm country being for Trump is cultural issues at this point. Like, he has been a total disaster for agriculture.

[Tim Miller]

It's not even just the tariffs and the war.

[Matt]

It's a lot of the Doge stuff. Money for programs like Healthy Meals for Kids that was funding a lot of

[Tim Miller]

smaller farmers in the country who were

[Matt]

growing healthy fruits and veggies that were being used to go to the school program.

[Tim Miller]

That's been across the board,

[Matt]

this administration has just been an assault on rural America.

[Tim Miller]

And I think that really it's, you

[Matt]

know, why they're doing this politically. Like, you know why he's trying to shine this turd.

[Tim Miller]

Because that's going to be the key,

[Matt]

maybe the key swing demo for whether they can keep the Senate this year, whether or not they can be successful in farm states like Iowa, like Nebraska. There's a strong independent running Dan Osborne and obviously their farm parts of some of these other states where there's going to be races as well be that Ohio, Texas, Florida.

[Tim Miller]

So TBD and all that.

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[Matt]

I, I.

[Tim Miller]

My understanding is that the, the temperature rises from here through the rest of the interview and, and old Donnie has a temper tantrum at the end. So I'm excited to see that. Let's see what else we got.

[Kristen Welker]

Our gas prices going higher or have they peaked?

[Donald Trump]

They're going to come low, very low. They're going to go lower than they were before.

Have they peaked as soon? Well, it depends.

I mean, it depends where the war guns. It could be I'll have to give them a shot and it could be we'll sign an agreement. If we sign an agreement, they'll go down now. Otherwise, they'll go down after we're finished.

[Kristen Welker]

You have.

[Tim Miller]

He doesn't give a. He doesn't give a. It was all fake. Him pretending like he cared about gas

[Matt]

prices was all fake. He cares about himself. He doesn't care about the pain he's causing people. He has no idea. Gas prices have not peaked. I promise you, they've not peaked. So. Well, we'll see who's right about that. Let's go to the next one.

[Kristen Welker]

Just to be very clear, are you backing off the fund completely, as your acting Attorney General, Todd Blanche has said, or are you looking for another avenue to revise?

[Donald Trump]

Let me explain what the fund is. People have been hurt so badly by

radical left lunatics that work for the Biden administration and Sleepy Joe. They're vicious, they're violent. What they did to people. And of course they went after me

more than anybody else. They raided Mar A Lago and all the other things. But people have been badly hurt.

They've committed suicide. They've lost their jobs, they've lost their families, they've lost their wives. They've lost everything. They've lost everything over a fake weaponization

[Kristen Welker]

of government for a way to revive it.

[Donald Trump]

Well, it's.

Look, it was up to me, I'd pay them the kind of money that they deserve. People have been destroyed. Lives have been destroyed. Many suicides. Think of it. People have committed suicide because a bunch of thugs went after them. So me personally, I think the weaponization fund is a great idea and so do many other Republicans. You have to get it approved. If they get it approved, that's to going great. If they don't get it approved, I'd be disappointed.

[Matt]

You hear the rain picking up there? You hear God's judgment on the weaponization fund?

[Tim Miller]

There's a lot there that's pretty disgusting. And I think that rather we spent

[Matt]

a lot of time talking about just how horrible and corrupt and upsetting this sludge fund is and the pot. On Thursday, I interviewed reporter at Lawfare who talked about all of the subsequent crimes that have been committed by January 6th. Insurrectionists that were pardoned, 90 plus. She was able to identify a lot of really heinous crimes.

[Tim Miller]

And so, you know, like, I think

[Matt]

that everybody watching this knows how bad this is.

[Tim Miller]

The thing that pisses me off most

[Matt]

about it is the rationale for it, like his. His comments that are actually the inverse of what is true. The idea that it was the thugs were the people that were defending the Capitol. The thugs were the people that worked for the Justice Department, the prosecutors, the civil servants that are trying to make sure that there's justice done and that people who tried to tear down our democracy, like, were held to account at some level. All the insurrectionists had due process. All the rioters in due process. They had a chance to, you know, defend themselves in court. Many of them pled guilty. People that didn't have that were the people that they attacked. And Trump talks about all the suicides. So strange. You never hear him have empathy for anybody. It's like the only people he has empathy for, the people that he duped into storming the Capitol on his behalf. But there were some other suicides after January 6th.

[Tim Miller]

Howard Lebengood is a Capitol Police officer

[Matt]

who died by suicide three days after the attack. Jeffrey Smith, an MPD officer who died by suicide nine days after the riot. Kyle Defreytag was an MPD officer who committed suicide that summer, and so did Gunther Hashida. They were an MPD Emergency Response Team officer.

[Tim Miller]

You know, we don't know exactly what the relationship was between the fact that

[Matt]

they had to go live through hell that day and be attacked by the actual thugs, people that were spearing them and spraying them with their own mace and hitting them. You have to assume that there's not zero connection. Officer Sicknick, Ryan Sicknick died in the days after he suffered grievous wounds that day on January 6th. No, nothing from the President of the United States about the suffering of those people, the suffering that he caused.

[Tim Miller]

Right. You have to assume we know Brian

[Matt]

Sicknick would be alive.

[Tim Miller]

You have to assume that any of

[Matt]

these officers who committed suicide would be alive.

[Tim Miller]

That, by the way, also that the

[Matt]

writers have killed themselves. A lot of them might be alive if Donald Trump had not made up a lie about the election because this

[Tim Miller]

little feelings were hurt.

[Matt]

He was a little baby.

[Tim Miller]

He Couldn't deal with the fact that he lost. We had to throw a tantrum.

[Matt]

He had to throw the biggest tantrum in history. A tantrum so big that he fooled other people into believing that he was the right one. And he fooled a lot of people. He ruined a lot of their lives and he ruined a lot of the lives of the people who were defending the Capitol that day. And the idea that we need some taxpayer funded fund to be doled out to the attackers and nothing. For those who are defending the country, smears actually. For those who are defending the country, they get smeared and targeted by Donald Trump and by his friends and allies all the time. It is really grotesque. And this is why I didn't watch Meet the Press this morning. My blood pressure is getting up again.

[Tim Miller]

My understanding is Donald Trump's blood pressure

[Matt]

got up as well.

[Tim Miller]

Sometimes that happens. Kind of projecting. You see this, you know, maybe and yourself or a child where you're kind of in an argument, you know you're wrong, you know you're guilty, but you're, you're dug in. And then you start to lose your cool a little bit, start to lose your temper. That happens to Donald Trump when he's talking about January 6th.

[Matt]

That happens to Donald Trump when he's talking about the lies about the 2020 election.

[Tim Miller]

And now he's got a whole new,

[Matt]

brand new set of lies that he's bringing up about the elections going forward. And that's where this interview comes to a head. And I believe that's where he walks off. Let's watch the end of the interview with Donald Trump talking about the 2020 election and his claims about what's happening

[Tim Miller]

in California right now.

[Kristen Welker]

Acknowledge they are slow. They're urging.

[Donald Trump]

No, they're crooked.

[Kristen Welker]

They're urging the votes to be counted quickly. That's how they vote.

[Donald Trump]

They're crooked, just like you're crooked. Your press is crooked and Meet the Press is crooked.

[Kristen Welker]

To be fair, I'm not crooked.

[Donald Trump]

But let's really. Well, you play right into their hands.

[Kristen Welker]

Let's continue.

[Donald Trump]

You're either crooked, you're stupid, you play right into their hands with this. You know that these elections are rigged. Your network knows that they're rigged. You know that I won an election in a landslide And I got 94% bad press.

[Kristen Welker]

But, Mr. President, you know why I got that present?

[Donald Trump]

Because you have no credibility.

[Kristen Welker]

But you've never presented evidence that it was rigged. Let's keep talking about, I want to talk about.

[Donald Trump]

You have more evidence. There's more evidence than ever Presented. Let's talk your elections in this country. We're like a third world country. Your elections are crooked and you're crooked and Meet the Press is crooked and so is ABC and CBS and CNN. Mr. President, your one sided crooked network. So let's call it quits because I've had enough. Thank you, darling. Have a good time.

[Kristen Welker]

Mr. President, let's please. I traveled all the way to Wisconsin. I've sat rain with you. I know I sat in the rain with you for an hour on and

[Donald Trump]

off in the rain. And I've given you enough time. You ought to straighten out your press because you know what? A country can never be great with a dishonest.

[Kristen Welker]

Listen, we traveled all the way to Wisconsin for this interview.

[Matt]

He is such a piece of and a baby. It's just kind of unbelievable, honestly, that the American people could put this ass clown in the White House two times.

[Tim Miller]

Which takes me to the obvious rebuttal to his whole just flood of lies and complaints and grievances there about the elections, which is he won twice. It's so insane that you have a person who had no qualifications, no character, no background to be the president. And yet because we live in a democratic system, which I want to defend but sometimes don't love, he became the most powerful man in the world because he won an election fair and square.

[Matt]

He lost the first election, actually.

[Tim Miller]

He got fewer votes, but he won based on the system that we have, he won the electoral college. This would not be possible in other first world countries. So I guess that's the one area we agree the system is a little bit of a third world system because it's only possible that a reality TV show host could become this powerful in a third world system. But it's not a third world system because we cheat. The votes were counted, he won in 16, the electoral college, he lost in 20 and then he won again. It's like the President of the United States, who won, who has both houses of Congress, whose party won the House of Representatives, whose party won the Senate, is sitting there saying our elections are rigged. Well, if our elections are rigged, why are you here? Why do I have to listen to you? If only like the elections were rigged. Don't you think that Sleepy Joe Biden and Kamala Harris would have rigged it for her or for him for that matter? This is lunacy to have to listen to this. The fact that people believe this nonsense is hard to understand. It's like he won twice and now he's sitting there ranting about how all of Our elections are rigged because he doesn't like the outcome of a mayor's

[Matt]

election in la, I guess, which we'll

[Tim Miller]

get to in a second, and the

[Matt]

governor's race in California.

[Tim Miller]

And the other thing that jumped out to me before we get to California is he keeps saying, your elections are crooked. You're crooked. Your elections are crooked. Which is a very revealing insight into

[Matt]

his psyche,

[Tim Miller]

that despite being elected president twice, he still doesn't see himself as

[Matt]

a representative of all of America. He doesn't. He doesn't see himself as the

[Tim Miller]

leader

[Matt]

of the free world, of course, but

[Tim Miller]

the leader of the country. He doesn't see himself as the person that is a steward of our democracy or democratic institutions.

[Matt]

None of this.

[Tim Miller]

Like, we all know all this. But it's interesting how it comes out

[Matt]

in certain ways when he's talking about

[Tim Miller]

how your elections are crooked. It's like you're the president of the country. It's our elections, it's our country. Unfortunately, we have to be in it with you. And he can't process that because, like, the only thing that his brain is able to think about as a megalomaniac

[Matt]

is the things that have to do with himself.

[Tim Miller]

So elections that he's not in aren't

[Matt]

his elections or your elections. Right.

[Tim Miller]

Elections that his results you don't like are not.

[Matt]

He's not a part of. That's you. That's some other thing. That's some. That's some. They. You know, you hear that in the. In his back and forth with Kristen there.

[Tim Miller]

You're crooked.

[Matt]

They're crooked.

[Donald Trump]

No, they're crooked.

[Kristen Welker]

They're urging the votes to be counted quick. That's how they vote.

[Donald Trump]

They're crooked, just like you're crooked.

[Tim Miller]

Who's they? I don't know. He doesn't ever say. Like, he says, we have a lot of evidence. He doesn't say what the evidence is.

[Matt]

There's some, like, vague, spooky, they out there. Some. Some enemy for people to fear, some

[Tim Miller]

group of people that others can project on.

[Matt]

You know, for some people, maybe it's like the Jews or the corporate elites or the Democrats or the liberals or the. Whatever, the immigrants. You know, there's always like this. They.

[Tim Miller]

It's.

[Matt]

They did it to us.

[Tim Miller]

And it is a deeply pernicious way

[Matt]

for anyone to think. But for the President of the United States to think it, it's just a total shame on our system that this man was allowed to get back into

[Tim Miller]

power with that worldview. So his handling of her at the end is Also disgusting.

[Donald Trump]

You're either crooked or you're stupid.

[Matt]

A little sexist comment, dismissive. He doesn't believe that he has to be accountable to the press of the people. It is.

[Tim Miller]

The whole thing is disgusting.

[Matt]

The whole thing is gross. And I just want to say one more thing about California, because like on

[Tim Miller]

Thursday's pod, Daviel and I, several times

[Matt]

I've criticized the California accounting system and,

[Tim Miller]

you know, I've gotten some pushback from

[Matt]

people in California on two things.

[Tim Miller]

Like, one, they just say, oh, we

[Matt]

shouldn't have to change our system because other people like Donald Trump are going to lie about it. And I understand that should. In therapy they tell me, should. Words don't really matter, though. You shouldn't think in should words. But they shouldn't have to change their system or do anything with their system because Donald Trump's gonna lie about it in a perfect world. I guess I hear that. And then also there's this kind of statement that California values are enfranchising in as many people as possible, and that's a good thing.

[Tim Miller]

It's like.

[Matt]

Well, actually, like Minnesota and Wisconsin enfranchise more people than California does, have higher percentage of people that turn out to vote, have very easy access for people to vote, and they manage to count their ballots quite quickly. And so they can do it. If Minnesota and Wisconsin could do it, I don't see why California couldn't figure

[Tim Miller]

out how to do it. And even if you're not for that, even if you think you don't care, if you think it's a good system, that Nithya Raman, who's running for mayor, who's going to beat Spencer Pratt, Hell yeah, Nithya. And get into the runoff. She conceded like five days ago because it seems like she was going to lose. And it takes California so long to

[Matt]

count that, like, all the late ballots came in and there for her because a lot of mail in ballots for

[Tim Miller]

her anyway, it wasn't cheating. It's just a stupid system that the

[Matt]

person running thought that they had lost and then a week later it's like, oopsie, no, they haven't. They won.

[Tim Miller]

Actually, when you have a system like that, it's going to breed distrust.

[Matt]

It just is.

[Tim Miller]

And it's going to breed distrust when you have somebody like Donald Trump out there, a total piece of shit, who is going to look for every weakness

[Matt]

in a system and try to abuse it and manipulate it to his own benefit.

[Tim Miller]

Well, then I just think that if you care about protecting our democracy, then you should care about cleaning up our

[Matt]

system a little bit so that these

[Tim Miller]

opportunities are not put on a silver

[Matt]

platter for people that want to tear down and ruin our democracy.

[Tim Miller]

So that's my point with the California thing. The California election is totally appropriate. If it was 1882 and we were counting ballots on horse and buggy, this would be fine. If it was 1996 and we had

[Matt]

Bill Clinton and Bob Dole, two institutionalists who were leading both parties who were not going to cause any trouble, then it probably wouldn't be that big of a deal either. It'd be a little annoying. But that's not where we're at.

[Tim Miller]

Like, we got to fight for our

[Matt]

democracy and protect our democracy from pieces of shit like the president. And California is just like handing him a weapon to hit them over the head with. Did our democracy over the head with. And I don't understand why, because there are plenty of other states that have figured out how to both give people access to vote and also count votes. And so, you know, the system is

[Tim Miller]

not, is not rigged. We are not a third world country. We count our votes. The winners get in office, as evidenced

[Matt]

by the fact that Donald Trump got in office twice.

[Tim Miller]

That's what's happening in California. That's a good thing. If you have any people in your life that don't believe it, I'm happy

[Matt]

to go to the mat to defend the integrity of the count in California because the count is totally fine. What they're doing is accurate, but they're also just giving a massive, massive weapon to the other side to use to make our democracy more fragile. And I think that that sucks.

[Tim Miller]

So Donald Trump, not a great president,

[Matt]

not doing a good job on any level is how I'll close that.

[Tim Miller]

This is why I don't watch the Sunday morning shows anymore. All right? But I do it for you guys. So I'm going to go outside, finish my smoothie. Hopefully you guys can enjoy your weekend. We'll see you back here Monday with

[Matt]

Bill Crystal for the Bulwark Podcast. Subscribe to the feed. I'd really appreciate it. We'll see you all soon.

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