Trump Demands Special Counsel, Still Not Over 2020 Election

Summary

Bulwark Takes: Trump Demands Special Counsel, Still Not Over 2020 Election

Released: June 20, 2025
Host: Sam Stein
Guest: Andrew Egger, Author of "Morning Shots"

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Introduction

In this episode of Bulwark Takes, Sam Stein engages in a deep conversation with Andrew Egger about former President Donald Trump's recent call for the appointment of a special counsel to investigate the 2020 presidential election. The discussion centers around Trump's persistent claims of election fraud and the implications of his latest demands for a special counsel.

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Trump’s Call for a Special Counsel

Sam Stein opens the discussion by highlighting Donald Trump's latest move:

Sam Stein [02:00]: "Donald Trump... takes to his favorite platform, True Social, and writes this. Zero border crossings for the month for Trump. All caps, of course, versus 60,000 for sleepy crooked Joe Biden... The evidence is massive and overwhelming of election fraud. He says a special prosecutor must be appointed. This cannot be allowed to happen again in the United States of America."

Andrew Egger responds by noting that while this is the first time Trump has specifically called for a special counsel regarding the 2020 election, he has consistently re-litigated the election results during his presidency:

Andrew Egger [02:09]: "Definitely the first time he's called for this specific policy move. Not, obviously the first time he has re-litigated the 2020 election while in office."

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Historical Context and Previous Claims

The hosts delve into the history of Trump's allegations of election fraud, examining statements from key figures associated with him:

• Donald Trump [02:20]: "2020 presidential election was by far the most corrupt election in the history of our country... It was a rigged election... We were getting ready to win this election... We did win this election."

• Andrew Egger [03:15]: Reflects on Trump's previous attacks on special counsels, mentioning how Trump was fiercely opposed to the appointment of Robert Mueller during the Russia investigation.

Sam Stein adds insights into the administrative dynamics:

Sam Stein [03:27]: "...In the aftermath of the 2020 election, in the run-up to his leaving office, he really felt like Bill Barr, his Attorney General at that time, shafted him by not, you know, looking into this stuff sufficiently."

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Analyzing the Feasibility of a Special Counsel

The conversation shifts to the practicalities and potential motivations behind Trump’s demand:

Andrew Egger [04:01]: Discusses the role of a special counsel as an independent figure outside the Justice Department, contrasting it with Trump’s usual approach to legal matters.

Sam Stein [04:35]: Questions the necessity of a special counsel given the extensive investigations already conducted, citing numerous dismissals of fraud claims.

Sam Stein emphasizes the redundancy of Trump's demand:

Sam Stein [06:42]: "Everyone who's looked into this, even people who are close to Trump, are like, no fraud occurred, buddy. Get over it."

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Evidence Refuting Election Fraud Claims

Andrew Egger and Sam Stein present a series of testimonials from Trump allies who acknowledge the legitimacy of the 2020 election:

• Rudy Giuliani: "I do not think the machine stole the election."

• Acting Deputy Attorney General Richard Donahue [02:41]: "I told the president myself that several times in several conversations that these allegations... were not true."

• Bill Barr [02:41]: Addressed allegations about vote dumping in Detroit, providing evidence against fraud claims.

• Jason Miller: Recounts that Trump’s campaign data lead conceded the likely election loss explicitly to Trump.

• Alex Cannon: "I was not personally finding anything sufficient to alter the results of the election."

• Kellyanne Conway: Admits that the Trump team failed to find supporting evidence for fraud claims.

Sam Stein [07:45]: "Everyone who's looked into this... are like, no fraud occurred, buddy. Get over it."

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Trump’s Surrounding Team and Reality Distortion

Andrew Egger discusses Trump’s influence over his inner circle, highlighting how surrounding himself with loyalists reinforces his unfounded claims:

Andrew Egger [07:45]: "He has succeeded in, in kind of putting this reality distortion force field around himself and surrounding him with people who help him keep that up."

They touch upon figures like J.D. Vance, who was selected for his unwavering support of Trump’s narrative.

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Potential Appointment of a Special Counsel

The hosts speculate on the likelihood and implications of appointing a special counsel:

Sam Stein [09:19]: Suggests that Trump might be strategizing to appoint someone like Mike Lindell, although Andrew Egger doubts this choice.

Andrew Egger [10:07]: Predicts that if a special counsel is appointed, it would more likely be someone like Harmeet Dhillon, who balances perceived sanity with a willingness to support Trump's agenda.

They conclude that a genuine, independent special counsel is unlikely to be appointed:

Andrew Egger [10:16]: "No, I don't think there will be a real one. But Trump will continue to beat the horn, I think so that you think..."

Sam Stein [10:44]: "I don't think they pick it up. I think this was a stray bullet from Trump... Maybe they do have to do it. But I would be surprised at this point if they do it."

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Conclusion

Sam Stein and Andrew Egger wrap up the discussion by expressing skepticism about the actual establishment of a special counsel to investigate the 2020 election. They argue that such a move would contradict Trump's usual strategies and likely be ineffective, serving more as a propaganda tool than a genuine legal inquiry.

Sam Stein [11:37]: "We'll see."

The episode provides a comprehensive analysis of Trump's latest demands, situating them within the broader context of his ongoing efforts to delegitimize the 2020 election results. Through their informed discussion, Stein and Egger offer listeners a nuanced understanding of the political maneuvers at play and the improbability of significant legal consequences stemming from Trump's current stance.

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Key Takeaways:

• Trump's Continued Allegations: Despite widespread debunking, Trump remains steadfast in claiming the 2020 election was stolen, now calling for a special counsel.

• Lack of Evidence: Multiple high-profile Trump allies and legal officials have found no substantial evidence of election fraud that would alter the election results.

• Political Strategy: The push for a special counsel may be more about maintaining a political narrative than seeking genuine legal accountability.

• Unlikely Outcome: Given the lack of credible evidence and the historical context of Trump's approach to legal matters, the appointment of a special counsel is considered improbable by the hosts.

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For more insightful discussions and analyses on current political events, subscribe to Bulwark Takes on your preferred podcast platform.

Transcript

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[Sam Stein]

Hey, guys. Me. Sam Stein, managing editor at the Bulwark. I'm joined by Andrew Egger, author of Morning Shots. We're here to talk about another bleat. This one on the scale of crazy, I'm going to put out a, I don't know, 6.7. What do you think?

[Andrew Egger]

Yeah, as far as the, like, personal craziness, that's pretty good. Policy craziness would be like a nine. Because if he actually followed through on this one, it would be kind of like.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Andrew Egger]

As far as the concepts.

[Sam Stein]

8.7. 8.7 for that. All right, so this morning, Donald Trump, as he's want to do, you know, he's got a lot going on, putting up flag poles. He's got to deal with the big beautiful bill, may or may not have war with Iran over its nuclear weapons program. Small things. Anyways, he takes to his favorite platform, True Social, and he writes this. Zero border crossings for the month for Trump. All caps, of course, versus 60,000 for sleepy crooked Joe Biden, a man who lost the 2020 presidential election by a landslide. Biden was grossly incompetent. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. The evidence is massive and overwhelming of election fraud. He says a special prosecutor must be appointed. This cannot be allowed to happen again in the United States of America. We don't really need to read the rest because it's just filler. I think that's the first time as president that he has called for the appointment of a special counsel to investigate what happened in 2020. Andrew, what do we, what are we supposed to make of this?

[Andrew Egger]

Yes, definitely the first time he's called for this specific policy move. Not, obviously the first time he has re litigated the 2020 election while in office. Again, which is kind of funny in and of itself. He brings it up all the time. Right.

[Donald Trump]

2020 presidential election was by far the most corrupt election in the history of our country. There's never been anything like this. It was a rigged election, and it's a shame that we had to go through it. It's very bad for our country. This is a major fraud in our nation. We were getting ready to win this election, frankly, we did win this election.

[Andrew Egger]

It's. It's sort of hard to know what to do with it, because in theory, the point of a special counsel is to have somebody outside the Justice Department who is not, like, beholden to. Who's, like, more independent than the Justice Department. Right. Which is like, Trump has never had this desire about anything, ever. It's always been exactly the opposite. He was so mad the first time around when Jeff Sessions appointed a special counsel for what turned into the Russia investigation. So it's like, it's kind of hard to parse his thinking here, other than just special counsels are big and important and useful, and we should probably have one of those on this.

[Sam Stein]

He's like, I, you know, he's like, I had Jack Smith, I had Robert Mueller. Like, shouldn't Joe Biden get one of those guys? He kind of glosses over Robert, her. But, you know, I think that's right. I think he just thinks it's important.

[Andrew Egger]

And the one other, like, historical detail is that in the Aftermath of the 2020 election, in the run up to his leaving office, he really felt like Bill Barr, his Attorney General at that time, shafted him by not, you know, looking into this stuff sufficiently. So I feel like it's a little bit wish casting back to wishing that Barr had, like, been willing to throw this off to some actual ally at that time. But, like, again, now it's Pam Bondi, right? Pam Bondi could just look into it for you, man. You don't need a special counsel. Just order your lickspittle Attorney General who, like all the people in your administration, exists to serve your every whim, get her to look into it.

[Sam Stein]

Do you think that's possibly what's happening here, where it's like, he's asked her to, and she's just like, I'm busy. And he's like, well, then pointing a special counselor. That too complicated.

[Andrew Egger]

I hadn't thought of that. No, it doesn't seem impossible because it does seem like if, if she were to push back on it, that would be the kind of way you would push back on it. Like, no, Mr. President, we have. Look at all these other priorities of yours that we're going after with our time like this is this. Not that we wouldn't. Not that we don't want to, but this is maybe not quite as high up the list. So, yeah, I could see that as a but, but, but. Yes. Then that's the rejoinder. Just, okay, hey, yeah, go hire someone new, man. Just go look at.

[Sam Stein]

Okay, I want to, I want to dive into some of the substantist stuff here because, and you're going to forgive me for a long soliloquy, a special counsel to investigate the 2020 election would be so duplicative, so unnecessary, so absurd, because this has been incredibly investigated. Now, when you say, well, there's been 60 cases that have been brought before judges and dismissed, you know, the Trump people say, oh, yeah, well, those are dismissed on standing. That's not true. Not all of them are dismissed on standing. But even if you were to put that and say, well, they should have litigated it and they didn't. I just want to read you some testimonials from Trumpers who acknowledge that this was not a stolen election. So here's some quotes. I'm just going to go with it. Bear with me. Rudy Giuliani to the special committee on January 6th, quote, I do not think the machine stole the election. His chief investigator, Bernard kerik, recently passed R.I.P. the committee noted it was impossible for Carrick and his team to determine conclusively whether there was widespread election fraud or whether that widespread fraud would have altered the outcome of the election. That's in the report. Here's acting Deputy Attorney General Richard Donahue, per the report, quote, I told the president myself that several times in several conversations that these allegations about ballots being smuggled in in a suitcase and run through the machine several times, it was not true. We looked at it. We looked at the video, we interviewed. The business we witness is it was not true. Here's Bill Barr on December 1, 2020. Then he, Trump raised the big vote dump, as he called it, in Detroit. And, you know, he said people saw boxes coming into the counting stations at all hours of the morning and so forth. I said, Mr. President, there are 630 precincts in Detroit. And unlike elsewhere in the state, they centralize the counting process so they're not counted in each precinct. They're moved to counting stations, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Jason Miller, Trump's longtime associate, recounted that at some point, Matt Ozkowski, who was the lead data person for the campaign, was brought in. And I remembered he delivered to the president in pretty blunt terms that he was going to lose.

[Andrew Egger]

And I remember he delivered to the president pretty blunt terms that he was going to lose.

[Sam Stein]

Here's Trump campaign lawyer Alex Cannon. Quote, I don't remember his exact words, but he asked me, he being Pence, if you're finding anything. And I said that I was not personally finding anything sufficient to alter the results of the election. He thanked me. That was our interaction. That's Trump campaign lawyer Alex Cannon. And here's Kellyanne Conway in her book. I may have been the first person Donald Trump trusted in his inner circle who told him that he had come up short this time. Conway wrote the team had failed on November 3, and they failed again afterward by not confronting the candidate with the grim reality of his situation, that the proof had not surfaced to support the claims they denied him, the evidence he sought, and the respect he was due. I mean, this is just comprehensive. Everyone who's looked into this, even people who are close to Trump, are like, no fraud occurred, buddy. Get over it. And yet he can't get over, or maybe just is over it and wants to use this as some sort of, I don't know, red herring excuse, whatever you want to call it, maybe, but.

[Andrew Egger]

But I really think it's the former. I think, I don't think it's any accident that none of those people are people who are close to him now. Right. I mean, even, even going back to, to the last election, when Trump was putting. It was. It was, it was very clear that he was going to use Did I win in 2020? As a litmus test for the people he was going to surround himself with the second time. So, for instance, J.D. vance basically got the job in part because he was the most shameless guy who was willing to kind of look interviewers in the eye and be like, yeah, I would have done the opposite of what Mike Pence did. I really think we should have, we should have gone a different direction there. And so I think he has succeeded in, in kind of putting this reality distortion force field around himself and surrounding him with people who help him keep that up. And he's probably going to be relitigating this one all the way through the end of this term, at least would be my guess.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, I remember Vance was asked repeatedly if he thought Trump had lost the election during the campaign, and then eventually, I think he said, no, I do not believe Trump lost the election.

[Andrew Egger]

No, I think there are serious problems in 2020.

[Ryan Seacrest]

So did Donald Trump lose the election? Not by the words that I would.

[Sam Stein]

Use, which is ridiculous. And I guess they're screwed. And they were. There's reports that they were screen potential appointees based on whether they believed in the big lie. And yeah, you know, that's nutty stuff. Bill Crystal in our slacks says this might be a shrewd move by Trump because you get to put a special counsel and you can maybe like, I don't know, is Mike Lindell free? I don't know, Someone who's crazy who would be like, yeah, I'm looking into it. I'm finding all this stuff and then you get to just stand up the original sin.

[Andrew Egger]

Yeah, it wouldn't be him. It would be one of these less transparently, like, who's free looking people. It'd be. It'd be someone more like Harmeet Dylan. Yeah, I mean, even, even she like, codes crazy in a way that I feel like there are plenty of. Plenty of people at the nexus of seem sane enough and also would be totally willing to do something like this that I don't know. The first name that pops into my head is Harmeet Dylan. Who, who is.

[Sam Stein]

But she's busy.

[Andrew Egger]

Is she? I forget what she does. Is she like, heads the civil rights.

[Sam Stein]

The Civil Rights division.

[Andrew Egger]

I. I don't know this one.

[Sam Stein]

Lindell's coming off the defamation trial. He's got a lot of free time.

[Andrew Egger]

Anytime we agree on a factual position on these, a factual prediction on these, you end up correct and I end up eating.

[Sam Stein]

It's not going to be Lindell, it's Michael. It's not going to be Lindell. It's not going to be Lindell. All right, let's end with this. Yes or no. Do we get a special counsel on this?

[Andrew Egger]

No, I don't think there will be a real one. But Trump will continue to beat the horn, I think so that you think.

[Sam Stein]

Bondi's just going to ignore it.

[Andrew Egger]

Let's see how many more times he brings it up. They always ignore the first one. You know, this is a common thing with Trump. You watch Trump, he'll float an idea and everyone will just kind of sit around and be like, all right, is this just something he floated or is this something he's going to come back to?

[Sam Stein]

You know what Bondi should do when she's asked about it? She should say, we're looking into it and I'll give you an answer in two weeks.

[Andrew Egger]

Yeah, right, Exactly.

[Sam Stein]

Folks don't get it. Look at the other video. I think, I think I'm with you. I don't think they pick it up. I think this was a stray. It was A stray bullet from Trump, throwing it out there, just shooting it into the air, seeing where it lands. But I don't know if he starts beating the drum a little bit more. Maybe they do have to do it. But I would be surprised at this point if they do it. I mean, the guy's in office. What more does he need?

[Andrew Egger]

And it totally runs against every other part of his whole project, which is why would he want a part of the branch looking into this that he has less direct control over? It just kind of boggles them.

[Sam Stein]

That's why you would, that's why you point a lackey. You wouldn't point like a real.

[Andrew Egger]

He's already got your lackeys in there. Right? It's like it's, it's weird. It's like it's not, it's not building a better mousetrap as far as I'm concerned. But then again, they are big, powerful words. Special counsel. And maybe that's all that matters to him. He wants a special counsel. Maybe he's going to get one. Who knows?

[Sam Stein]

We'll see. All right, Andrew, thanks a bunch, my friend. Appreciate you. Thank you guys for watching. Appreciate you too.

[Ryan Seacrest]

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