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- [00:00]
Adrian
Hey, Bulwark fam. Welcome to the Bulwark. Thanks so much for joining us. It's my pleasure today to be joined by Chris Newman. He is the lawyer for the family of Kilmar Abrego Garcia, the Maryland man who the US Government admits was wrongly sent to El Salvador. Kilmar is a father of U.S. citizens. He is a spouse of U.S. citizen wife, Chris. We've known each other a long time. When you were making trouble in the immigration advocacy space, you know, then when I joined in and started covering immigration, I think you helped me, you know, piss off the Obama administration and some other folks. So we've known each other a long time, and it was. I was, you know, heartened to see that you were on this case and doing this work. How do you and your day job, you know, general counsel of the National Day Labor Organizing Network, get connected to be. To be representing the family of Kilmar.
- [00:54]
Chris Newman
Well, thank you so much, Adrian, for your years of work covering and excavating the truth about immigration law and policy. And big thank you to the Bulwark family for staying on the Kilmar Abrego Garcia matter. From, from the beginning, I've been listening with interest, and I'm very, very grateful to the spotlight that you all have been showing because, you know, I mean, this case is about a lot of things. Constitutional crisis, a man wrongfully detained, sent to a black site in a foreign country. But it's also a case fundamentally about truth versus lies. And we're getting a lot of lies from, you know, the highest, most powerful office in the world. And we're doing our best to sweat, you know, swat them away like whack a mole. And I know that your website has. Has been on the case to your question. I was actually in New York City and turned on my computer and read, read it when Nick Miroff broke the story. Originally, I always read Nick stuff. Formerly, I think he was at the Washington Post. He's now at the Atlantic. But Nick is famous for breaking news, usually because he has controlled leaks from dhs. In this case, I think he found the story of a. Was wrongfully arrested right from the start. And basically, I jumped out of bed when I saw that he was a day laborer looking for work at a Home Depot when this entire nightmare of a story began. So literally, since, I guess, minutes after Miroff broke the story, I've been working on the case full time, in part, as you know, because this case is in many ways emblematic of a kind of Venn diagram of work that I've been doing for 20 years precisely to try to reverse the catastrophic policy decision of the Obama administration under his Secure Communities program, which we can talk about, which basically set all this in motion. Had the Home Depot been in Los Angeles, Kilmar for sure never would have been handed over to ICE in the first place. So I could see immediately a, that this man had been wrongfully arrested, wrongfully deported. I could see clearly that this was going to be a test case for what we're now witnessing, which is that basically President Trump is trying to model U.S. immigration law after what President Bukele has done in El Salvador, having a state of exception where people are arrested first and questions are asked later. And he's clearly importing the Salvadoran policy into the United States. And so I've been working night and day to prevent that from happening.
- [03:25]
Adrian
This story starts getting a lot of attention. Senator Van Hollen from Maryland, who counts Kilmar and his family as constituents, he heads down to El Salvador, and you're down there with him, and I see that, and I'm like, oh, my God, Chris, I know him now he's in El Salvador. What leads to you being there with the senator? And, you know, talk to me about that trip? And also, can you tell the audience at some point in your answer the promise you made to your partner, Marjorie Garcia? She's a prominent entertainment lawyer, and I think everybody will appreciate that as well.
- [03:54]
Chris Newman
The first thing I did when, when I read the story was I called Simon Moshenberg, who's the lead counsel, doing just absolutely magnificent work, you know, representing Kilmar. At that time, he was, you know, just sort of working in isolation. The very first thing that we did was my colleague started to go fund me for Kilmar's family. And I think we've raised over $200,000 just to help support them. You know, they had to flee their house. They've been essentially doxxed. And then I got in touch with CASA Maryland, which Kilmar is not just a union member, he's a CASA Maryland member. And CASA has devoted all the resources that they can to support the family. So I called CASA and to get in touch with the family. And what I said was, look, I haven't talked to my wife or my partner. My wife, you know, maybe one day, hopefully. But someone needs to get down to El Salvador immediately, tell them that I'm willing to do that. I've been going to El salvador for. For 10 years. So then I told my partner, Marjorie Garcia, who you rightfully Point out is a prominent attorney in, in Latin music, in particular, representing a bunch of Latin music artists. I said, look, I got, I gotta go to El Salvador. This guy needs help. I, at that point, I think I had already spoken to Jennifer and Cecilia Kilmar's mom, and given my commitment that I would do that. And then from there I started immediately to call everybody who I knew in the world who was, as I refer to it, unrestable, someone who could come with me and basically ensure my safety because I didn't know what I was getting into. So I called celebrities. I spoke to pretty much every congressional office that at that point had intimated that they were going to come down. And then I, you know, I got put in touch with Senator Van Holland's amazing team because it became clear that, that he was going to be the first to go down.
- [05:59]
Adrian
Wow, it's an incredible story. So, you know, now my story today is on the congressional delegation that went down to El Salvador. They were there on Monday. This included Yasmine Ansari of Arizona, Robert Garcia of California, Maxwell Frost of Florida, Maxine Dexter of Oregon. You were, you were there again. So, you know, I'd love to know, you know, what details you could share on sort of how that came to, to pass. And then I want to just talk about this next phase. You know, the members of Congress didn't just go down there and send a letter to Secretary of State Rubio asking for Kilmar's wellness checks, access to counsel, ultimately facilitating him being released from El Salvador. They also were advocating and asking for proof of life for Andre Jose Romero Hernandez, a gay 19 year old Venezuelan makeup artist. And he's gotten so much attention as well. It's fascinating what's going on, but sort of talk to me about how you got to El Salvador again with this delegation and then a little bit about widening the aperture, I think, as you put it, on other cases.
- [07:00]
Chris Newman
So one of the people that I was in touch with from the very beginning was Congressman Jim McGovern, who, from Massachusetts, who is a hero of mine in part because he has done delegations to El Salvador, going back to his times working for Moakley and, and has a long history of relationships in El Salvador and particularly with the Jesuit community. At a given point, I asked him point blank, I said, hey man, would it be safe if I don't find somebody famous to go with me? Would it be safe for me to just go by myself? And he said, you know what, go down, come back quickly and then come back with more people. That was his advice. I made myself available to a number of people. I got in touch with Congressman Garcia when that trip was coming together with Congressman Frost, Dexter, and Zari, and accompanied them for all but basically an hour and a half of their trip. I do think it's worth pointing out that one of the things that Senator, or, I'm sorry, Congressman McGovern told me was that this is the first time in his experience that if something were to happen while you're in El Salvador, you can't count on the help of the United States government. And that was stark. And that kind of sat with me. I love El Salvador. I go there all the time. I love Salvadorans. I myself have never felt afraid. You know, I honestly wasn't even afraid when. When Senator Von Hollen and I were pulled over and detained by the general and the soldiers. That. That part didn't scare me. The point in which I actually felt a little bit afraid was Senator Van Hollen and I parted ways, and I was by myself. And then I had it occurred to me that I had to get back home to Marjorie and my son Camilo. And I wasn't sure exactly how that was going to happen. And after 20 years of representing undocumented immigrants in the same situation, people who are afraid about whether and how they're going to see their family, it was the very first time in my life that I actually felt the feeling that my clients had had, and it was profound. Another key point in the story, I just want to say, is when Senator Von Hollen and I drove to Seekot, at that time, that's where we assumed he was. We went with no permission. And I really want to emphasize the bravery of Senator Von Hollen, just his courageous sort of stepping into the unknown. And I really feel. And I don't want to speak for the senator, but I feel like both of us are drawing upon the courage of Jennifer Cecilia and what we imagine Kilmar is going through. I think we were trying to summon some of that courage. And my sense is that that trip, that escalation, if you will, is what allowed Senator Von Hollen to get exactly what we were there for, which is three things. Proof of life, proof of his safety and where he was. And we didn't get the third thing, which is access to counsel for Kilmar and access to his family. And I have pledged to the family that I will keep going down to keep sort of every day getting proof of life, proof of his safety, and ultimately access to counsel, because we believe, and I believe confidently that if Kilmar gets access to his basic human rights, if he gets access to, you know, the due process that he is entitled to, he will be exonerated and ultimately returned to his family.
- [10:33]
Adrian
And let me lead you into this question. You know, on the case of Andre, I spoke to his lawyer, and she told me, because there's some question.
- [10:42]
Chris Newman
Do.
- [10:43]
Adrian
We publicize these things in the media? Is that good, or do we try back channel things? I spoke to her about, and, you know, she said she's 100% in the camp that Democrats and media need to shine a light here on these cases. And she told me, quote, the moment people stop paying attention, they're going to potentially live out their lives or die in El Salvador. I mean, that is incredibly powerful. You and I spoke about widening the aperture, capture to other cases, other men that are wrongfully in El Salvador. And what do you think about that sort of next phase, as well as Kilmar?
- [11:12]
Chris Newman
The first thing I'll say is it's both. And, okay, we have to have both the public attention on these cases on the commissions in El Salvador and also be pursuing, you know, back channels to the extent that those are viable. So it's a sort of, you know, in immigration law, there's a sort of all of the above approach when you're trying to represent your clients. And I think that that is clearly the case both for Kilmar and for Andre. One of the things that I think if we're able to succeed in keeping the media attention on these cases, on this story, on this situation, one of the things that we're going to see is that the people that are being banished from the United States, expelled, I don't even know the word because, deported, I don't think is the right term. They are experiencing a sort of state of rightlessness and being put into black sites in a way that Salvadorans have been experiencing for three years. And so my hope is that as the media continues to cover this story, people in the United States will learn that El Salvador has been living under what is called a state of exception for three years. And you have tens of thousands of people that are in the same situation, situation as Kilmar, where their families don't know where they are, they can't get access to counsel. They don't know who their accusers are. There has not been due process. And so it isn't just a question of these two individuals who, you know. And again, I only represent Kilmar's family. You know, there are tens of thousands of People. And now we are in this moment where basically the fate of the legal system of the United States and El Salvador are linked. And to me, I think it's very interesting and in some ways, kind of inevitable moment in 20 years of just a sort of coarsening of immigration law and policy. Again, to step back even further, Ms. 13 is not a Salvadoran street gang. It's a Los Angeles street gang that has been exported to El Salvador. And part of the reason why I've been against secure communities and the policy undergirding the link between police and ice, well, part of it is because people like Kilmar are now made to be afraid of reporting the very criminals that Donald Trump is talking about. And so, you know, if you want ms.13 off the streets, separate immigration and criminal law enforcement so that people can come forward and, you know, identify the quote, unquote, bad guys, that's a whole other matter, you know, for another day. But also, the United States didn't just export a street gang from la. We are now basically converting our prisons into universities for transnational gangs and sending people to El Salvador and destabilizing El Salvador, which gave rise to Bukele in the first place. And so now the idea that we're somehow importing his political and legal project of a state of exception where no one gets trials, et cetera, it doesn't surprise me. But I think it's very important for bulwark listeners who are interested in this to know that what everyone in El Salvador has told all the congresspeople and what has told Senator Van Hollen is that there are tens of thousands of Kilmars in El Salvador experiencing the exact same situation.
- [14:50]
Adrian
Chris, you are so knowledgeable. I think a lot of people watching will find you very brave for going down and dealing with, with what, everything that's going on right now in El Salvador. One of the things the members of Congress also told me is like, the reason to bring attention here is also because Trump is talking about sending U.S. citizens next. I mean, this is not just some small immigration matter. They started with immigrants, and we see how they're expanding.
- [15:14]
Chris Newman
There's 100% the case that everyone in the country should be invested in the outcome of this case because all of our rights are on the line. And at this point, Kilmar and his family, in my view, are civil rights leaders defending the rights of all of us. But because as I am on your network, which I am very grateful for, if you're a member of Congress, if you are interested in doing a delegation, like Senator Von Holland or the four courageous congress people that I was just with, I guess, yesterday in El Salvador, hit me up. I'll go back with you. And hopefully, not only can you help my clients, but hopefully we can start to bring a greater understanding between El Salvador and the United States. Because the people in El Salvador who are fighting against the Bukele regime, the United States has a lot to learn from them in terms of their courage and their fortitude in fighting against sort of a laboratory of fascism which is now metastasizing in the United States.
- [16:20]
Adrian
We'll leave it right there. Thanks, everybody, for watching. Please like and subscribe to the Bulwark. Take care, guys.