Podcast Summary: Bulwark Takes – "Trump Fired Her For Not Giving Mel Gibson His Guns Back!"
Introduction
In the May 19, 2025 episode of Bulwark Takes, host Sam Stein engages in a compelling conversation with Liz Oyer, a former U.S. Pardon Attorney and current Substack author at Get This Lawyer Oyer. The episode delves into Oyer’s unexpected termination from the Department of Justice (DOJ) during the Trump administration, her resistance to political pressure regarding the restoration of actor Mel Gibson's gun rights, and the broader implications for the use and abuse of presidential pardon power.
Liz Oyer’s Background and Career Path
Liz Oyer provides a comprehensive background of her career, highlighting her decade-long experience as a federal public defender before joining the DOJ as a pardon attorney. She explains her role involved reviewing clemency applications from individuals across the nation, with approximately 80% seeking sentence reductions and 20% requesting full pardons for minor offenses. Oyer emphasizes her commitment to ensuring that clemency decisions are based on public safety and genuine rehabilitation, rather than political influence.
“I sort of consider myself a public defender for life. But I was most recently at the Department of Justice for three years in the role of pardon attorney... me to make sure that people who do not have access to the White House through the front door can still have a shot at second chances through clemency.”
– Liz Oyer [02:08]
The Pardon Power and Oyer’s Role
Oyer elaborates on the responsibilities of a pardon attorney, detailing how her team of 40 staff members meticulously reviewed clemency applications to ensure fairness and impartiality. She underscores the importance of safeguarding the clemency process from political manipulation, aiming to provide equitable opportunities for individuals seeking second chances.
Interaction with the Trump Administration and Mel Gibson Case
The conversation takes a pivotal turn when Oyer recounts the incident that led to her dismissal. She was tasked with recommending the restoration of Mel Gibson's firearm rights—a request outside her usual purview. Oyer states that the information provided was insufficient to justify such a recommendation, leading to her refusal.
“The information that I had available to me was not adequate to justify making that recommendation. And so I didn't make it, and I got fired.”
– Liz Oyer [06:16]
Firing and Aftermath
Oyer describes her abrupt termination, receiving a terse memo from Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanch without any clear explanation linking her firing to the Mel Gibson case. She narrates the distressing experience of being escorted out of the DOJ building, highlighting the lack of transparency and the feared politicization of the clemency process.
“I was informed that I was fired under Article 2 of the Constitution... And this, of course, happened hours after I had declined to make this recommendation about the gun rights of Mel Gibson.”
– Liz Oyer [07:10]
Speaking Out and Congressional Testimony
Refusing to remain silent, Oyer took the bold step of testifying before Congress about her termination and the misuse of the pardon power. She shares a harrowing account of receiving a call warning about impending threats from U.S. marshals, which she narrowly avoided by advocating for her family's safety. Despite intimidation attempts, Oyer remained steadfast in her commitment to expose the politicized practices within the DOJ.
“I did not want to set the precedent that these types of intimidation tactics can work in silencing people who are simply telling the truth about what's really going on in the department currently.”
– Liz Oyer [12:10]
Current Issues within the DOJ and Concerns About Successor Ed Martin
Oyer expresses deep concerns about her successor, Ed Martin, who now heads the DOJ's "weaponization subdivision." She fears that Martin will misuse his authority to investigate political adversaries while granting pardons to Trump allies and donors, further eroding the integrity of the clemency process.
“He is... using the resources of the Department to investigate enemies, and he's going to be using the pardon power or continuing to use the pardon power to do favors to political allies and donors of the President, which is a very frightening combination and a total misuse of the resources of the Department of Justice.”
– Liz Oyer [16:27]
Abuse of Pardon Power Under Trump
A significant portion of the discussion centers on the Trump administration's alarming use of the pardon power. Oyer criticizes the unprecedented practice of pardoning wealthy individuals and political allies without regard for public safety or genuine rehabilitation, contrasting it with former President Obama's more judicious use of clemency.
“Trump has forgiven over a billion dollars of debts owed by millionaires and billionaires through his use of the pardon power, which is really just shocking.”
– Liz Oyer [21:35]
Call for Reforms and Increased Accountability
Oyer advocates for substantial reforms to the pardon process, emphasizing the necessity for greater oversight and transparency. She calls on the media and the public to hold the president accountable for secretive and possibly corrupt pardon decisions, highlighting the absence of explanations for these actions.
“One thing that we should be having conversations about is are there reforms that are needed to the underlying constitutional authority to grant pardons without any oversight?”
– Liz Oyer [22:07]
Legal Actions and Oyer’s Personal Sacrifices
Facing stonewalling from the DOJ regarding her termination, Oyer has initiated legal actions, including an administrative appeal and a lawsuit under the Freedom of Information Act to uncover the true reasons behind her firing. She discusses the personal and familial costs of her whistleblowing efforts, underscoring the emotional and professional risks involved.
“I have felt very exposed... but I'm doing what I feel like my fellow citizens deserve.”
– Liz Oyer [13:46]
Closing Thoughts and Encouragement for Collective Action
Oyer concludes by urging others to speak out against injustices within governmental institutions, despite the inherent risks. She emphasizes the importance of collective bravery in the face of political intimidation, hoping to inspire others to join her in advocating for a fair and accountable justice system.
“It feels like this is not the time to stay quiet. This is the time to be brave and to speak up.”
– Liz Oyer [18:47]
Conclusion
This episode of Bulwark Takes offers a profound insight into the challenges faced by career officials who stand against political misuse of power. Liz Oyer’s narrative not only highlights the specific case of her termination over the Mel Gibson gun rights issue but also underscores the broader threats to justice and integrity within the federal pardon system under the Trump administration. Her courageous stance serves as a call to action for accountability and ethical reforms in the use of executive clemency.