Podcast Summary: Bulwark Takes

Episode: Trump Folds the Second Mamdani Walks In – Plus a Sam & Sarah Q&A!
Date: November 22, 2025
Host(s): Sam Stein & Sarah Longwell

Overview of the Episode

This episode explores the surprising and news-making Oval Office meeting between former President Donald Trump and Zoran Mamdani, the newly elected mayor of New York—a self-described socialist and ideological Trump opponent. Instead of the expected confrontation, the meeting turned into a mutual admiration fest, shaking up political narratives on both left and right. Sam Stein and Sarah Longwell break down what transpired, the political implications, and the difference between strategic necessity and core values in the current political climate. The episode ends with a transition to a paywalled Q&A segment for subscribers.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Trump-Mamdani Oval Office Meeting

• Unexpected Outcome:
  The meeting was widely anticipated as a possible ideological showdown, but instead, Trump lavished praise on Mamdani and expressed comfort with his leadership.

  • “Trump gets in there and showers him with praise. The gist was, this guy's not so bad. I could actually live in New York City under him.” (Sam, 00:36)

• Mamdani’s Response:
  Mamdani echoed positive feelings about Trump after the meeting.

  • “I really think he has a chance to do a great job. We're going to help him...” (Trump, 01:32, paraphrased by Sam and Sarah)

• Trump Defuses ‘Fascist’ Claims:
  When pressed about being called a fascist, Trump brushed it off.

  • “You can call me a fascist. It's easier to just dispel with the question that way.” (Trump, 01:45)
  • “That's okay. You could just say, okay, okay. That's easier. It's easier than explaining it. I don't mind.” (Trump, 01:56)

2. The Politics of Charm: Trump’s Interpersonal Dynamics

• Contradictory Persona:
  Sam and Sarah discuss Trump's reputed interpersonal charm, contrasting it with his public persona.

  • “You often hear from people that Trump in person is very charming.” (Sarah, 02:09)
  • “He throws it on thick… you feel all insidery and chummy with the guy and you're like, wait a second, this dude's been talking about Mexicans being rapists.” (Sam, 04:37)

• Selective Hostility:
  Trump’s hostility is situational and seldom face-to-face, often reserved for his public statements and social media.

  • “He will tweet horrible things about the Democrats, but when they're sitting right in front of him, he's, oh, no, no, this is…” (Sarah, 02:49)
  • “It's like, as long as you're nice to him, he will be nice back to you.” (Sarah, 02:52)

• Charm as Weakness:
  Trump is not just charming but also highly susceptible to flattery and solicitousness, which Mamdani seemed to leverage.

  • “While he is a charmer, he's also very susceptible to charm. And I think it's very obvious that Mamdani came in quite aware of that.” (Sam, 04:53)

3. The Strategic Calculations for Mamdani

• Political Realities:
  Mamdani’s move to get along with Trump is portrayed as a savvy strategic calculation, especially for someone with executive responsibilities in a city like New York.

  • “It's better for him to get along and go along with Trump. It's better not to have the president of the United States… holding back resources.” (Sarah, 05:36, 06:18)
  • “It makes his life a ton easier, but it also makes Republicans lives harder to not have Mamdani as… the face of the Democratic Party to be able to crap on his policies constantly…” (Sarah, 06:21)

• Political Dilemma:
  This dynamic is troubling for Mamdani’s base, who saw him as an anti-Trump figure.

  • “I struggle with this… people who like Mamdani like him in part because they see him as kind of an anti-Trump…” (Sarah, 05:36)

• Undercutting Republican Attack Lines:
  Trump's warmth toward Mamdani undermines GOP narratives about radical socialism threatening America.

  • “You just took the entire plank out of Stefanik's gubernatorial run.” (Sam, 07:37)
  • “Trump turns to camera… ‘I don't see it. Like, he seems like a good guy to me.’” (Trump, 07:18)

4. The Problem of “Kayfabe” and Political Normalization

• Kayfabe Analogy:
  Sam and Sarah parallel the current political charades to wrestling, where enemies are friendly offstage—the spectacle is for the crowd.

  • “Trump is just actually a fake wrestler… kayfabe, right?” (Sam & Sarah, 09:56)
  • “It would be like if one of the characters in WWF match stops the fight, grabs the mic and explains to the crowd that no, it's not real blood.” (Jonathan Martin via Sam, 09:58)

• Normalizing Trump:
  This normalization provides cover for Trump and complicates Democrats’ existential warnings.

  • “You provide cover for Trump too, with people, they say, well, he can't be, can't call him a fascist if you're just buddy, buddy with him.” (Sarah, 08:05)
  • “If you thought he was an existential threat, why would you, you know, give him covering, Cozy up and meet him in the Oval.” (Sam, 08:44)

5. Weighing the Tradeoffs—Strategic vs. Principle

• Short-term Pragmatism vs. Long-term Risk:
  Sam ultimately sees value in Mamdani’s tact, buying political peace during vulnerable, early months, though Sarah is concerned about the broader cost.
  • “Your early mayorship… this next six months for Mamdani is so critical… you can't be spending it begging the feds for resources… And I think he bought himself some time, and I think it's probably worth it.” (Sam, 09:56)
  • “Every time an elected official call him a fascist… and then run off to see him, it creates the sense that it is all political kayfabe to voters…” (Sarah, 10:53)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “You can call me a fascist. It's easier to just dispel with the question that way.” — Donald Trump (quoted by Sam, 01:45)
• “He throws it on thick… you feel all insidery and chummy with the guy and you're like, wait a second, this dude's been talking about Mexicans being rapists.” — Sam Stein (04:37)
• “It's like, as long as you're nice to him, he will be nice back to you… your best quality is, do you like him?“ — Sarah Longwell (02:52)
• “Trump is just actually a fake wrestler… kayfabe, right?” — Sam Stein & Sarah Longwell (09:56)
• “You just took the entire plank out of Stefanik's gubernatorial run.” — Sam Stein (07:37)
• “Every time an elected official call him a fascist… and then run off to see him, it creates the sense that it is all political kayfabe to voters.” — Sarah Longwell (10:53)

Key Timestamps

• 00:22 – 01:29: News about Mamdani-Trump meeting and setup of episode
• 01:29 – 02:04: Trump's praise for Mamdani and the fascism question
• 02:09 – 02:49: Trump’s charm and personality in person
• 03:58 – 05:36: The myth of Trump as a “tough” Oval Office operator; how he handles meetings
• 05:36 – 06:58: Strategic rationale for Mamdani’s approach, the challenge for Democrats
• 07:01 – 07:37: The impact on GOP narratives (Stefanik example)
• 08:03 – 09:06: Dangers of normalizing Trump & “kayfabe” analogy
• 09:56 – 10:53: Final analysis and disagreement (pragmatism vs. principle)
• 11:47: Transition to paywalled Q&A

Tone & Language

• Conversational, sharp, and witty
• Open disagreement and self-deprecation (“I’m just going to ignore your repeated use of the word riz and move on.” — Sam, 09:06)
• Balances cynicism with humor; respectful debate

For listeners interested in the deeper strategic dynamics of modern American politics, especially as they relate to how principle and pragmatism collide in high-stakes, personality-driven showdowns, this episode offers both nuanced insights and memorable banter.