← Bulwark Takes
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- [00:00]
A
Hey, everybody, it's me, Sam Stein, managing editor at the Bork. And I am joined by Sarah Longwell, our publisher, our fearless publisher. And we both have drinks.
- [00:10]
B
Cheers. It's Friday afternoon.
- [00:12]
A
It's Friday afternoon. Hold on. That's some good still wine.
- [00:18]
B
Yeah, grab a drink yourselves, people. Come hang out with us.
- [00:22]
A
Yeah, yeah. Get buckled in and everything. We're going to be doing something a little bit different now. We are going to be talking about some insane news that just happened, but almost kind of predictable in a way. It was Zoran Mamdani in the Oval Office with Donald Trump, and an actual love fest broke out. We'll get to that in a second. But about, like, 10 minutes into this discussion, we're gonna stop, we're gonna pause it, and then we're gonna do a Q A, which is basically, I'm gonna grab some mailbag questions for Sarah, and she's gonna grab some mailbag questions for me. That's only for people who are paid subscribers to the bulwark, either YouTube subscribers or substack subscribers. So, look, grab a subscription. It's worth it. It's a great investment. A lot of fun that happens. You get a chance to post questions to either of us. All right, Sarah, let's talk about Zaron. He goes into the Oval Office. Everyone's portraying it as a great socialist beatdown to come. Trump gets in there and showers him with praise. The gist was, this guy's not so bad. I could actually live in New York City under him. I think he's going to do great work. Would you feel comfortable living in New York City under a Mamdani administration?
- [01:29]
C
Yeah, I would. I really would. Especially after the meeting. Absolutely. I really think he has a chance to do a great job. We're going to help him, but I really think he has a chance to do a great job.
- [01:39]
A
You know, we actually do have a lot in common. At one point, they said, zoran Mamdan, do you stand by calling Trump a fascist? And Trump just interjects and says, you can call me a fascist. It's easier to just dispel with the question that way. Are you affirming that you think President.
- [01:55]
B
Trump is a fascist?
- [01:56]
A
I've spoken about.
- [01:57]
C
That's okay. You could just say, okay, okay. That's easier. It's easier than explaining it. I don't mind.
- [02:04]
A
I thought this was going to happen, but I didn't think it was going to happen to this degree. What do you make of it?
- [02:09]
B
You know, there's a couple of things. One, you Often hear from people that Trump in person is very charming.
- [02:17]
A
Which I'm always like, you never met him in person.
- [02:20]
B
Why would I have met him in person?
- [02:22]
A
I've met him in person. I don't know, crossing paths once upon a time in a green room or something.
- [02:27]
B
Life do you think I lead? No, I was never. The closest I've come to proximity to Trump is my proximity to Tim Miller as he was shouting at Trump, your tie was made in China back sometime in 2016. No, I've never met him. I have met, but I of course, know. I was actually. When I was at Dick Cheney's funeral yesterday, one of the newscasters was recounting a story about being in the Oval Office with Trump and taking their family in and how Trump is so charming in those situations. And I just. For me, Trump is so repellent. But he also. This is it. When people talk about skilled politician, sometimes what they mean is, also is just sort of like, how do they make you feel when you're with them? And Trump is an ingratiating type of person. That is what he does to people. He is. I think, you know, I think he's a despicable human who knows how to turn on the charm in. In certain situations. But part of it, too, is what happens when you're such a coward that you only talk shit behind people's backs, which is what he does, right? He. He will tweet horrible things about the Democrats, but when they're sitting right in front of him, he's, oh, no, no, this is. And it might be why he's, like, so nice to the dictators, right? It's like, as long as you're nice to him, he will be nice back to you. Did you chop somebody up with a bone saw? Are you a mass murderer? Trump is just. He's looking for your best qualities, and your best quality is, do you like him? And it sounds like Mamdani was also solicitous of Trump's approval in this meeting.
- [03:59]
A
Well, this is what this is. So two things. One is, I completely agree with you. There's this kind of false narrative that Trump can, like, corner you in the Oval Office and diminish you and, like, brow people. And it's all. It's mostly based on the Zelensky meeting. People forget that that meeting was actually going fine until it was J.D. vance who stirred the pot and he got everything going. And then after it started building, Trump jumped in and said, you know, you don't have any of the cards, yada, yada. But Trump, you know, it wasn't actually that cantankerous a meeting up until that point. Secondarily is while Trump is incredibly charming in person, and I have met him once or twice and I remember.
- [04:38]
B
And you found him charming?
- [04:40]
A
Look, he came up to me. This is pre presidency. We are in the green room. He came up to me and he throws it on thick. He was like, I watch you on tv, you're so great. You know, you're a little hard on me, maybe take a little easier. It's like you feel all insidery and chummy with the guy and you're like, wait a second, this dude's been talking about Mexicans being rapists. You know, it's like it, it's very. There's something out of body about it. While he is a charmer, he's also very susceptible to charm. And I think it's very obvious that Mamdani came in with, quite aware of that because he kept saying in these things, you know, I talked to all these voters in New York who voted for Trump back in the day and they, you know, this is why. Because he was so focused on cost of living and he ends these endless wars and we don't want what's going on in Gaza to happen. And Trump agrees with me. It's like, you know, it's very easy to figure out how to get on Trump's gun good side. Right. You just flatter him. And I think that's what mom Donnie did.
- [05:36]
B
Yeah. I mean, I wonder to the extent that people. So first of all, I've got to say I, I struggle with this. I understand Mom Donnie's incentives and I. And I wonder how people. Because the vast majority of the people who like mom Donnie like him in part because they see him as kind of an anti Trump or somebody who might take Trump on. They don't want him cozying up to Trump. But this, this sort of Mamdani now, as the, as the mayor of New York, knows that it is better for him to get along and go along with Trump. It's better not to have the president United States. I don't know, sending the National Guard in and calling you a socialist every.
- [06:19]
A
Five minutes, holding back resources. Yeah.
- [06:22]
B
And so, you know, this, this one's a little tough for me because on one hand, strategically, I see a lot of reasons why this is smart for Mamdani to do. Like, it makes his life a ton easier, but it also makes Republicans lives harder to not have Mamdani as, like, they want to make him into the face of the Democratic Party to be able to crap on his policies constantly and say, see, look at these Democrats. They elect socialists and that's why you shouldn't vote for them and scare people with them. So Trump buddying up with him was probably very annoying for Trump and his, his people like mom Donnie.
- [06:59]
A
Super annoying for Lisa Stefanik.
- [07:01]
B
Yeah.
- [07:02]
A
Portray mom Donnie as a socialist scrooge who's going to screw over New York. And Trump was asked about that. He's like, I forget what it was like. At least Stefanika said, this guy is like, you know, the devil incarnate. And Trump turns to the camera and he's like, I don't see it. Like, he seems like a good guy to me.
- [07:19]
C
She's a very capable person, but you really have to ask her about that. But I don't particularly. I think I met with a very, I met with a man who's a very rational person. I met with a man who wants to see, really wants to see New York be great again. And I can say, again, because New York was great.
- [07:38]
A
It's like, oh, man, you just took the entire plank out of Stefanik's gubernatorial run.
- [07:42]
B
Yeah. But on the other hand.
- [07:44]
A
Okay, what's the other hand?
- [07:46]
B
The other hand is Mamdani calling him a fascist. And meaning it's because it works the other way too. Where if it's like when Obama at. I forget where they were that Obama was being really chummy with Trump after he was reelected.
- [08:04]
A
Funeral. It was one of the funerals.
- [08:05]
B
Ultimately what happens is this is like you provide cover for Trump too, with people, they say, well, he can't be, can't call him a fascist if you're just buddy, buddy with him. Like, that's not how you treat a fascist. And so this is how Trump gets normalized and smoothed over. And so, and it's always like this. It's like people making short term trade offs for their own sort of political benefit to make things easier or to say it's better for my constituents. This is a Gretchen Whitmer thing. Right. They're like, I gotta get something from him. Right. But ultimately then what it does is it causes voters to be like, they're overreacting. Lots of people think he's fine.
- [08:44]
A
Right. If you thought he was an existential threat, why would you, you know, give him covering, Cozy up and meet him in the Oval. Right, right.
- [08:50]
B
Which is another reason why Trump had him in there. Trump's getting killed on the economy. Trump's getting killed on affordability. Trump feels like he's losing his riz on lowering prices. And so he's like, well, how about I get this socialist in here and I like, you know, chew up some of his riz on this.
- [09:07]
A
Well, I'm just, I'm going to ignore your repeated use of the word riz and we'll move on.
- [09:11]
B
Am I using it right?
- [09:13]
A
I think. I don't know. What do I know? I get it. I, I don't think there's an easy answer to this one. Because if you're going to meet with Trump and your mom, d, I think now's the time to do it, right? You're at your peak. You don't, you don't go there when you, you've burned capital and you're not actually ascendant and you're not very popular. You go there right now, you get in good, and then you kind of buy yourself a little time with the Feds. So I get why he did that and I also get what you're saying. It's like, you know, you've, you've sat. You've now stood next to the guy and he's chummy and you're chummy and he looks normal and he's talking nice about you and you're smiling. It's like presents his visual where it's like, you know, yeah, Trump is just actually. And we should add JVL on here. Trump is just actually a fake wrestler. Yeah.
- [09:56]
B
Kayfabe, right? This is kayfabe.
- [09:58]
A
It's all just Jonathan Martin. Yeah. And Jonathan Martin at Politico had the tweet about this. He's like, it was essentially like, this is we. This would be like if one of the characters in WWF match stops the fight, grabs the mic and explains to the crowd that no, it's not real blood. Like, that's what this is, right? It's like, ah, this fascist thing. Yeah, don't worry, you can call me that. Yeah, he is. My boy's like, he called you a despot. And Trump's like, I've been called worse. You know, it's like. And so, yeah, it is a little bit of kpop and it is obviously that's, that's the message that's being portrayed. And yet I still, I think I still come down on the side that he should have done it and that you get Trump off your back. Your early marrial ship is like, like that this next six months for Mandani is so critical. Right. And you can't be spending it begging the feds for resources. And you know, Facing off with ice and, you know, having to do all this other shit when you need to show progress. And I think he bought himself some time, and I think it's probably worth it.
- [10:54]
B
Yeah, I probably lean the other side of that. I mean, I recognize the practical implications, and he has different responsibilities. That being said, every time an elected official call him a fascist, say they're a threat to democracy, talk about the damage he's doing in, like, high existential language, and then run off to see him, it creates the sense that it is all political kayfabe to voters. And then when they are told at election time, well, you can't elect this guy. He's a fascist. And they're like, well, but maybe he's the one who's going to lower prices. And nobody really seems to believe he's a fascist. And so I think that probably net net, and I just think net net, it ends up doing more damage, but it does solve some of the bespoke political concerns of each person. But overall, it contributes to the reasons why Trump has been normalized in our culture and society.
- [11:47]
A
Okay, all right, we're going to switch it up here. For those who have been watching and enjoying this, now's your chance. Get a subscription. Subscribe to us on YouTube. Subscribe to us on Substack. We're going to paywall this video so that anyone who's not a subscriber can't see what's coming up, which is a great mailbag where Sarah and I are going to take your questions, do our best to answer them, and continue drinking.