Bulwark Takes: “Trump: ‘I'm not sure I'm gonna be able to make heaven’”
Date: October 17, 2025
Hosts: JVL (Jonathan V. Last), Will Salatin, Eric
Theme: The panel explores Donald Trump’s attitudes and rhetoric around heaven, morality, and religion—what it reveals about his worldview, and how that contrasts with mature religious or moral perspectives.
Episode Overview
This episode unpacks recent comments from Donald Trump suggesting uncertainty about his own prospects for heaven. The Bulwark team dissects Trump’s own stated understanding of religion and salvation, comparing it to broader traditions in Christianity and Judaism, and discussing the transactional and self-centered nature of his worldview. The conversation also touches on the influence of prosperity gospel theology, the lack of spiritual introspection in Trump’s thinking, and the broader implications for American religious culture.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Trump’s Comments on Heaven and Transactional Religion
- Trump recently said: “I’m not sure I'm gonna be able to make heaven,” and mused about ending the war in Ukraine as a possible “ticket” to heaven.
- The hosts play clips of Trump equating good deeds and major geopolitical achievements with “earning” heaven, indicating he sees the afterlife as a transaction or reward rather than a spiritual pursuit.
Quote:
“I don't think there's anything going to get me in heaven. Okay. I really don't. ...I'm not sure I'm going to be able to make heaven.”
—Donald Trump, (01:05)
2. Analysis of Trump’s Spiritual Development (Kohlberg Scale)
- Eric introduces the Kohlberg scale of moral development, arguing that Trump is stuck at a childlike stage in which being good is only meaningful if there’s a reward.
- The hosts question the depth and sincerity of Trump’s religious language, seeing his focus entirely on personal reward and external validation.
Quote:
“He thinks about heaven as it's candy. It's a reward. ...He doesn't seem capable of understanding that he ought to be good apart from the idea that he's going to get this payoff.”
—Eric, (01:42)
3. Trump’s Rhetoric about His Parents and Heaven
- Trump frequently asserts that his parents are in heaven, almost as if it’s a prestigious club that he or others can “make.”
- The panel notes his focus on his parents watching him (even referencing his mugshot), aligning heaven with status rather than spirit.
Quote:
“My father's looking down, my mother and father looking down, because they're definitely in heaven. ...They said, I can't believe my son took a mug shot. This is unbelievable.”
—Trump (as quoted by Eric, 03:23)
4. Religious Motive as “Why Be Good?”
- The team reviews a Fox & Friends interview where Trump suggests the only reason to be good is to get into heaven.
- JVL and Eric compare this with Catholic, Jewish, and other religious traditions where striving for goodness is not conditional on a heavenly reward.
Quote:
“If you don't have heaven, you almost say, what's, what's the reason? Why do I have to be good? Let's not be good. What difference does it make?”
—Trump (as quoted by Eric, 04:18)
5. The Prosperity Gospel and Trump’s “Transaction” Mentality
- Hosts describe Trump’s spiritual life as transactional and quantifiable—God is like another business partner, approval is measured by material or electoral success.
- Religious support for Trump (especially from evangelicals) appears to reinforce this viewpoint.
Quotes:
“What's your relationship with God like? It's good because I do very well with the evangelicals.”
—JVL paraphrasing Trump, (07:17)
“For him is I count votes...do I have a relationship with God? Let's see what my tally is with the evangelicals...”
—Eric, (08:29)
- Eric comments that Trump marvels at belief in others, perhaps because he lacks it deeply.
Quote:
“They're so believing. He's, like, marveling that other people have this thing called belief. It sounds to me like maybe he doesn't.”
—Eric, (07:05)
6. Providence, Nationalism, and God’s Favor on America
- Trump equates America’s natural resource abundance with divine favor, blurring spiritual and material blessings in a nationalist framework.
- JVL distinguishes “truck commercial theology” from more thoughtful interpretations of America’s role in history and providence.
Quote:
“For whatever reason, God was very good to us.”
—Trump (on America’s oil reserves, 12:24)
Quote:
“The sophisticated version...is that the creation of the United States is providential. ...the Trumpian view is an explicit rejection of the sophisticated view...”
—JVL, (13:00)
7. Eric Trump and the Signs of Divine Approval
- Eric Trump’s public comments reinforce a prosperity gospel view—material success and survival in politics mean they’re “heaven bound” by default.
Quote:
“If he wasn't heaven bound, if he wasn't meant for this purpose, he wouldn't have beaten Hillary, we wouldn't have beaten Hillary, we wouldn't have got through the landmine of what under siege was ...”
—Eric Trump (as quoted by Will Salatin, 15:06)
8. Trump’s Theological Shortcuts and Forgiveness
- JVL recalls how Trump, when asked about asking God for forgiveness, declared he’s never needed to.
- The hosts underline that this contradicts the foundations of Christianity and spiritual traditions, which center on humility, repentance, and the need for forgiveness.
Quote:
“If that isn't disqualifying to every single Christian listening to this, then, like, I don't know what to say to them...the very foundation of Christianity is, a, we're all sinners, B, we all need for God's forgiveness...”
—JVL, (17:16)
9. The Absence of Spiritual Depth
- Eric frames Trump’s approach to faith as not just unchristian, but fundamentally unspiritual—the missing recognition of anything greater than oneself.
- Religion, as the panel sees it, involves confronting contradiction, striving for good regardless of reward, and recognizing limitations.
Quote:
“The first step in any kind of religion is there is something greater than you. ...That first step is what he's lacking.”
—Eric, (18:03)
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
“God is like the final counterparty to a deal. ...Once me and God get to know each other, we're gonna do some beautiful things, some things people never thought were possible. We're gonna come to a very strong result...” —JVL (18:33)
-
“I'm not sure his relationship with God is any different than his relationship with any being, living or present, earthly or heavenly.” —JVL (08:17)
-
“I am so disturbed, because I think you nailed it. There's, like, Putin and there's President Xi, and then God is the ultimate dealmaker on the other.” —Eric (19:08)
Timestamps for Key Segments
- 00:30: Start of main episode; introducing topic (“Is Donald Trump going to heaven?”)
- 01:05: Trump’s recent “not sure I’m going to heaven” comments
- 03:23: Trump discusses his parents “making” heaven, heaven-as-country-club view
- 04:18: Trump on being good only to get to heaven (“why be good?”)
- 06:27: Trump’s view of his relationship with God as tied to evangelical support
- 09:20: Trump claims God helped him with political victories (“It’s amazing the way God works, isn’t it?”)
- 12:24: Trump connects America’s oil reserves to divine favor
- 15:06: Eric Trump’s claim that political triumphs mean Trump is “heaven bound”
- 17:00: Trump’s assertion he never needed forgiveness
- 18:03: Panel closes with the insight that Trump’s worldview is wholly transactional, lacking any spiritual humility or sense of the transcendent.
Summary
The episode deftly explores how Trump's approach to religion is fundamentally instrumental and transactional, treating spiritual matters as another business negotiation or PR campaign. The hosts probe the gap between this outlook and more mature, self-reflective religious traditions, highlighting the ways in which these attitudes both reflect and influence aspects of American cultural and political life.
If you’re interested in the intersection of politics, religion, and the peculiarities of the Trumpian worldview, this discussion is filled with sharp insight, revealing clips, and memorable commentary from The Bulwark team.