Trump Invents His Own Iran War Polls Because the Real Ones Suck

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Bulwark Takes

Episode: "Trump Invents His Own Iran War Polls Because the Real Ones Suck"

Host(s): Sam Stein, Charlie Sykes
Date: July 23, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into the ongoing chaos of the Trump White House, with a lively mix of humor and serious analysis. Sam Stein and Charlie Sykes tackle three major topics: the increasingly gaudy, gold-infused White House decor, the rapidly deteriorating Iran war and the politics around it—including Trump’s penchant for inventing his own poll results—and the announcement of a controversial U.S.–Saudi Arabia nuclear deal cast against the backdrop of U.S. conflict with Iran. Throughout, the hosts maintain a sharp, satirical tone, blending policy critique with memorable banter, and continually referencing the surreality of current events.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. White House Décor Goes Gold Overboard

[01:18-08:53]

• Opening Banter: Sam Stein welcomes Andrew Egger back from vacation, joking about the length in true European style.
• Decor Critique: The conversation kicks off with amusement and disbelief at Trump’s penchant for gold, which has reached new heights in the White House interior.
  • Charlie Sykes jokes the White House is “coming to resemble what someone dubbed a Thai restaurant” ([01:21])
  • Elaborate gold frames and ornamental objects now dominate spaces like the colonnade and the Oval Office.
  • Quote – Charlie Sykes
    "The classier it gets… more you label things, the less confusing it is for people. That’s very helpful. People appreciate that... It really helps with decluttering your life." ([02:25])
  • Video Review: The hosts “pause” a recent Dan Scavino video for comedic real-time commentary, marveling at gold statuary, possible Batman logos, bells, and custom gold trim crammed into every nook.
  • Theories abound about Trump’s shopping habits (Etsy, home shopping, DIY hot glue projects).
  • Memorable Moment – Charlie Sykes:
    “The Oval Office is going to start to look like some sort of hoarder nightmare situation. The most gold spangled hoarder room in America would be my guess for what this is going to end up looking like in a year or two here.” ([03:40])
  • Speculation on the origins of the ornaments—possibly sourced from Etsy, perhaps even challenge coins above doors ([08:35]).
  • Underlying satire about labeling “this is the Rose Garden” and “Presidential Walk of Fame” for visiting dignitaries ([02:40]).

2. Escalating Conflict and Chaos: The Iran War

[09:00-15:48]

• Transition to Serious Discussion: After the extended decor riff, Sam moves to current events—specifically the spiraling Iran war situation and Trump’s latest saber-rattling.
  • Trump’s tit-for-tat provocations and vague threats of “a one for one exchange” if U.S. interests are attacked.
  • Critique of the failed Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) with Iran; retrospective clips show administration officials defending what’s now widely regarded as a disastrous deal.
  • Clip – J.D. Vance, Vice President:
    "Have a little bit of faith in the President of the United States. The idea that he is going to strike a deal that’s been bad for the American people, it’s preposterous. He is the person who has had the courage to fundamentally transform our relationship with Iran…" ([11:06])
  • Sam admits, “That deal really sucked, I have to be honest, in retrospect.” ([12:10])
  • Charlie: The cycle has repeated; U.S. and Iran are back to confrontation, with the Strait of Hormuz closed, depleted oil reserves, and mounting economic pain ([12:20])
  • Quote – Charlie Sykes:
    "We're literally back to, what was it, early May... Oh, man, are we going to hit all these bridges and are we going to hit all these power plants?... It really does seem like it has to be starting to dawn on these guys now that they genuinely just don't have any more buttons left to push other than the ones they've already tried..." ([12:20])
  • No appetite for a ground war; “zero political will for that anywhere in the country” ([14:13])
• The Polls and Trump’s Response:
  • New Politico poll shows crumbling GOP/MAGA support for the Iran war—a 13-point drop among Trump's base in two months ([14:26])
  • Trump’s Response: Instead of engaging with the numbers, Trump simply invents his own favorable polling.
    • Quote – Trump (clip):
      "Well, Americans aren't against the war. The poll, a poll just came out. Americans don't want high gasoline prices, but they're not against the war." ([15:29])
  • The hosts discuss whether Trump is lying, self-deluded, or being misled by staff ([15:48-16:06])
  • Sykes brings up Trump’s historical fixation on avoiding a "Herbert Hoover" legacy and how he once used the word “bedlam” to describe global oil chaos—warned it was just weeks away ([17:10])

3. The Saudi Nuclear Deal: Hypocrisy and Geopolitics

[18:03-23:43]

• Breaking News: Trump administration has approved a landmark civilian nuclear agreement with Saudi Arabia that allows for uranium enrichment in kingdom territory—even as the U.S. fights to prevent Iran from doing the same.
• Irony and Double Standards Highlighted:
  • Sam Stein: “How do you argue that the Iranians can’t do this and that it’s worth fighting a war for, while simultaneously cutting an agreement with the Saudis…?”
  • Points out the Rubio bill from 2018 that required Congressional approval and normalization with Israel, none of which applies here ([18:35])
  • Sam references Saudi Arabia’s complicated history and notes, “One need to look back to 9/11. A lot of the hijackers were from Saudi Arabia. It seems discordant.” ([20:11])
• Charlie Sykes provides ‘realpolitik’ analysis:
  • “As far as he is concerned, these Arab Gulf states are like the best allies the United States has… He loves the treatment he gets when he goes over there…”
  • Notes the Saudis’ generous treatment of Trump, including providing a jet ([21:07])
  • For Trump, “It’s not like, why should Saudi Arabia be allowed to have this and not Iran? For him, it's more like why should Germany be allowed to deploy nuclear power and not Saudi Arabia for civilian purposes?” ([21:08])
  • Recognizes that while the deal is currently for civilian use, risks abound—especially the optics in a region already embroiled in war.
• Sam Stein: “But it also hampers our moral high ground.” ([22:15])
  • Sykes jokes about the U.S.’s depleted credibility: “Are we, is there any more of that left to say? That was into the White House wall with golden ornament. We're in trouble.” ([22:25])
  • Both acknowledge the commercial benefit to U.S. nuclear firms, and Sykes draws a parallel to similar terms earlier offered to Iran, only Iran wanted more sovereign control ([22:37-23:43])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "The Oval Office is going to start to look like some sort of hoarder nightmare situation. The most gold spangled hoarder room in America would be my guess for what this is going to end up looking like in a year or two here."
  – Charlie Sykes ([03:40])

• "The classier it gets… more you label things, the less confusing it is for people... It really helps with decluttering your life."
  – Charlie Sykes ([02:25])

• "Have a little bit of faith in the President of the United States..."
  – J.D. Vance ([11:06])

• "That deal really sucked, I have to be honest, in retrospect."
  – Sam Stein ([12:10])

• "We're literally back to... are we going to hit all these bridges and are we going to hit all these power plants? ...they genuinely just don't have any more buttons left to push..."
  – Charlie Sykes ([12:20])

• "Well, Americans aren't against the war... Americans don't want high gasoline prices, but they're not against the war."
  – Donald Trump (clip) ([15:29])

• "Are we, is there any more of that [moral high ground] left to say? That was into the White House wall with golden ornament. We're in trouble."
  – Charlie Sykes ([22:25])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• White House gold décor satire: [01:18–08:53]
• Transition to Iran war, failed MOU, and media role: [09:00-15:29]
• Trump invents his own poll numbers clip: [15:29–16:01]
• Historical “bedlam” speech and economic peril: [17:00–17:30]
• Saudi Nuclear deal deep dive and hypocrisy: [18:03–23:43]

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Tone & Style

The episode maintains Bulwark’s signature mix of biting satire, policy realism, and brutally direct analysis. Charlie Sykes and Sam Stein keep the discussion fast-paced, interjecting humor even while unpacking grim news. Conversation is laced with self-mockery ("Put a bird on it energy"), sly references to the absurdity of Trump-era norms, and a shared incredulity at the state of politics. The recurring theme: what feels surreal is now the new normal—a golden White House, an endless war with Iran, and shifting nuclear rules.

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Takeaway

This episode captures both the absurdity and seriousness of the current political moment: Trump’s White House continues to spiral into self-parody as policy crises mount abroad and at home. Even in chaos, the Bulwark team finds levity, reminding listeners that sometimes, to comprehend the news, you have to laugh as much as you analyze.

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Transcript

[Charlie Sykes]

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[Sam Stein]

Hey everybody, it's me, Sam Stein, managing editor at the book and I'm joined by the Andrew Egger. Looking sharp, looking refreshed. Back from vacation. What'd you take? Four or five weeks? What'd you take?

[Charlie Sykes]

Yeah, it was like two, three months maybe. It's hard to keep track after a while. Really a math guy.

[Sam Stein]

Very European of you to just take off the entire summer. Although I guess you're back in late July. We have a potpourri of amazing stories to get through on this Wednesday afternoon. We got the surreal and we got the very real. So I want to start. Well, dealer's choice. Do you want to get serious first or have fun?

[Guest/Contributor]

I'll.

[Charlie Sykes]

Let's do the fun stuff first. It's so hard to come back from the serious stuff.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, fair enough. Okay, let's talk about the latest in the White House decorations. So I know that you're a big fan of splashing gold all over the place. Your home looks like the White House and the oval does. The White House is coming to resemble what someone dubbed a Thai restaurant. And I kind of see it. Did you see that one?

[Charlie Sykes]

I did see that. Yeah. Yeah. No, and I do sympathize. You know, I'm bankrupting our family, bringing home, you know, spray painted vases and different little models of planes and all these sorts of things. Potpourri to put on the walls. It's a problem. I understand.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, let's. Let's look at this photo. You put in slack with these elaborate oversized gold frames along the colonnade where once was just the President's. And that was tacky enough. The presidential portraits. He's now put these gigantic gold frames and then these gold ornaments all over. And then the Presidential walk of fame and then the rose Garden and gold font. It looks so beautiful. This is, this is a real White House.

[Charlie Sykes]

The classier it gets. It just. This is just a good sort of interior decoration principle. In life, more you label things, the less confusing it is for people. That's very helpful. People appreciate that and they, they respect it as a, as a principle of interior design. So it, it really helps with decluttering your life.

[Sam Stein]

We should be thanking Trump because a lot of people show up at the White House and they're like, where am I? What room is this? Is this a garden? I don't see roses. Oh, there's the sign. I am in the Rose Garden. So thank you.

[Charlie Sykes]

Which walk is this? This is the Presidential Walk of Fame. I didn't know from all the presidents.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, yeah, there we go. Dan Scavino, Trump's ex caddy turned very important White House. Post a video of this. I don't even know what to call what the Oval looks like now, but let's. Can we watch the video and just look at this? Is there a Batman symbol there?

[Charlie Sykes]

I would. I don't know what that was.

[Sam Stein]

Okay, so they got the FIFA World Peace Prize trophy. They had the music from the West Wing. They have just gold everywhere. Everywhere. What do you think?

[Charlie Sykes]

It's more and more every time you look at it. Like, I'm sort of astounded by it. You'd think they would have run out of surfaces, vertical and horizontal surfaces, to put new things on. I am genuinely concerned for what this is going to look like after a couple more years of this guy. Especially, you know, if, if Iran keeps going badly and if he loses the midterms and can't get anything through Congress and has to sort of turn ever more inward onto these little passion projects, like doesn't have the Kennedy center anymore, but statues in D.C. and things like this. I mean, the Oval Office is going to start to look like some sort of hoarder nightmare situation. The most gold spangled hoarder room in America would be my guess for what this is going to end up looking like in a year or two here.

[Sam Stein]

Do you think he's online looking at like, I don't know, Etsy or something like that, or, you know, maybe he's got some magazine that he flips through with collectibles and he's like, I need that. He seems like the type of guy who would do a home shopping network binge watch.

[Charlie Sykes]

He has definitely always had that tendency. I mean, he does not really farm this stuff out, right? I mean, he sets aside a little time to Tinker. He's got his glue when he installed or supervised the installation of a couple of new flag poles on the White House grounds. Stuff like that. Yeah, I mean, yeah, he could be up there hot gluing these things together, you know, before bed over in the. In the West Wing residence. We don't know.

[Sam Stein]

I would not be shocked by that. I know that Tim Miller genuinely likes the aesthetic, but I think it's just a touch over the top at this point and maybe revisit that.

[Charlie Sykes]

He. He takes so much, so much for this. I genuinely wonder whether it is still that way for him. Because, like, in fairness to Tim, you know, he developed that take very early on, and it was like 15. Can we get that? I want to.

[Sam Stein]

I want to. I want to go back to the. Let's go back to the Scavino video. Maybe we could pause it at certain points so we could just linger on a few things. Can we play that one more time? All right, pause. Okay. Just the fireplace. Let's just talk about the fireplace for a second. What. What are the. Like, shallots. What are those things? Like, what are those candlesticks? I can't even. Are they cups? What are those?

[Charlie Sykes]

Yeah, they seem to be some sort of decorative urn situation. A few of them are just statuary, but they are.

[Sam Stein]

They all.

[Charlie Sykes]

They all are just gold statuary of some kind or another. The thing that obsesses me is, where

[Sam Stein]

do you think he got those?

[Charlie Sykes]

Oh, I. Don't ask me. There was a lot. Do you remember this? There was, like, conspiracy theories early on that, you know, people were finding Etsy listings that seemed to match some of these specific things. And Trump even got asked about it, and he was like, you know, no, you can't. You guys think this is just spray painted gold? That's not possible. You can't get that color with paint. This is all real gold, baby. And look. That's possible.

[Sam Stein]

How about the gray in front of the firewood? How did he find a golden one of that? That's got to be spray painted. Come on. You're not going to put that in front of your fireplace. Although I doubt he actually uses the fireplace.

[Charlie Sykes]

Yeah, Famously. Famously. Poor metal to have anywhere close to heat. Yeah, so. So it doesn't seem likely. Yeah.

[Sam Stein]

Okay, let's keep playing. I like this. We're having fun. Relatively normal. Nice clock.

[Charlie Sykes]

Can we pause one second on that clock?

[Sam Stein]

Stop. Go back.

[Charlie Sykes]

Wait, there's the Batman logo again. I don't know what's going on with that Batman logo. Was that in the Original Scavino video. Did we get a random spare Batman logo in here? Somehow, I don't know what's going on.

[Sam Stein]

Why is this bell here? Why is this bell here? And what is that thing above the window? Why is there, like, another urn in that little.

[Charlie Sykes]

Because they. Because they suddenly discovered there's a little horizontal shelf right there. I mean, seriously, like, they're on the hunt unmolested. Like, vertical and horizontal. Real estate in this office is getting

[Sam Stein]

harder and harder to come by.

[Charlie Sykes]

If you look at that clock, look, that clock by itself, great little thing to have in that particular space. It fits it fine. Whatever. But then they throw. You can just see a little bit of it there. They throw all this vertical trim on both sides of the clock because you gotta put it somewhere, right? And I guess.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Yeah.

[Sam Stein]

Do you think he noticed? He's like, wait a second. This is over 10 inches wide. We could fit some more gold trim in here right next to the clock. And they're like, sir, you have a lot. No, no. That space needs gold. The bell, gold. I don't know what bell that is. Do you know what bell that is?

[Charlie Sykes]

I don't know. It's roughly shaped like the Liberty Bell. It could be a small replica of that. Most bells kind of look the same, you know, when it comes right down to it, but. But that'd be my guess.

[Sam Stein]

That's historically significant. Bell 1, 1000 Liberty Bells. That is just insulting to bell makers. All right, keep going. There's the Batman. Loco. Oh, more girl trimming. Okay, stop. Look at this door. Why is this door. What happened to this door? Can we back up just a frame, please? I don't know if we could. This door doesn't need this. There's like. What are the things on top of the door? Those circles. The 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 circles right on top of the door. I'm sure they were not there before.

[Charlie Sykes]

I can't. You can't see close enough to know. But I wonder, like, could those be Trump challenge coins? Challenge coins are a big deal in this administration. It's weird that. But they're all different shapes and sizes, right? Other than. So that would be my only guess, but yes. I don't know. There's a real. Put a bird on it energy to all of this. Like we keep saying. I don't know.

[Sam Stein]

This segment is sponsored by the New York Times. Yes, the New York Times. So on Sunday, Donald Trump flew on the Qatari donated jet that's been made into the new Air Force One. And as the Times reported, Trump told reporters that the new plane will be taken out of service to be, in his words, maxed out. Times has been ahead of the story from the beginning. Earlier this month, experts and administration officials spoke to the Times about the security concerns they had with the jet. Now, days later, the White House started a leak investigation. Because their reporting was so well sourced, they subpoenaed the New York Times reporters. Now look, the foundation of the news commentary is fact based reporting. This show and every other show with commentary on current events really does depend on, on original fact based reporting. I'm constantly looking to the New York Times to stay informed because I know I can trust that paper. And it's especially true for reporting surrounding the new Air Force One. They've been at the front of this story from the beginning. Without fact based reporting like this, the rest of us are just left guessing. So wherever you seek it out nationally, locally, support fact based reporting. All right, let's move to the more serious stuff. So we, we have a serious war that is continuing to escalate. And this morning, Donald Trump did one of these tit for tat warnings. He said if, if they hit a ship in the Strait of Hormuz, we're going to bomb a bridge. A one for one exchange. I don't even know like threatening war crimes. I'm just sort of struck. And I put this on Twitter. I don't think they're getting enough blame for how bad the MOU was. I mean literally. And I want to play this J.D. vance clip the days after the MOU was signed. They're like, oh, the straight's gonna be open. We guarantee it. There's, they're not charging anything. And they're like, and, and you have to have faith in Donald Trump for cutting just an excellent deal. Let's listen to J.D. vance talking to the White House press corps about this. Many of the colleagues that you served with in the US Senate and Republican conference have criticized this deal over the last 24 hours. What is your message, Mr. Vice President? Back to that.

[Guest/Contributor]

So I guess I would say to anybody, any of the critics is, number one, have a little bit of faith in the President of the United States. The idea that he is going to strike a deal that's been bad for the American people. It's preposterous. He is the person who has had the courage to fundamentally transform our relationship with Iran and with a lot of other countries over the last year and a half. He believes in this deal. He is going to see it to completion and if the Iranians don't comply, we still have every single tool and point of leverage that we have today. That would be message number one, is have a little faith in the President's ability, given that he's got us this far, to take us the final step. The second thing that I would say is so many of what I've read or heard that people believe about this deal is just fundamentally untrue. It is a Memorandum of understanding. It is fundamentally a principal principle that, yes, the Straits of Hormuz are going to be open immediately, and they already are. Are. Yes, they're going to give up their highly enriched material, but they've got to actually do it. It's about conduct. It's about rewarding good conduct and punishing bad conduct, which in some ways is what we've been doing for the last three months vis a vis that country.

[Sam Stein]

Anyway, I guess in the last part, he's. He was right. We. We can still use our tools, and we're using them, but that deal really sucked, I have to be honest, in retrospect.

[Charlie Sykes]

Well, and does it matter at all, like, how good or how bad it was now that it is completely just. I mean, Iran has said they are no longer abiding by it. We are completely backed off from abiding by. I mean, the craziest thing to me is how completely cyclical this stuff has become. I mean, we're literally back to, what was it, early May or whatever, when it was something like that. Oh, man, are we going to hit all these bridges and are we going to hit all these power plants? And what would the ramifications of that be for this broader conflict? And is this going to keep spilling out into more and more of these Gulf nations and just start to take on a momentum of its own? And pretty soon after that, Trump himself slammed the brakes and basically said, well, no, no, no, you know, we're. He did that kind of like, hold me back, don't let me, don't let me do what I want to do to him thing. And that was what led to the Memorandum of understanding. But now we're just right back where we were, except for two things. One of which is that there's just a lot less gas to go around and coming out of all these petroleum stockpiles that have been spent down. We're just running out of it. And the Strait of Hormuz is still closed. And two, the American people are starting to realize, hey, this is like, we've been down this road before. We've seen this before we have not this economic pain that we are starting to feel from this. It does not actually seem as though that is going anyplace. Like it's not pointing in a direction of any good outcome. And I think that if it had not already dawned on the President before, even though people have been saying it since the very beginning that he has gotten himself into a no win situation here, it really does seem like it has to be starting to dawn on these guys now that they genuinely just don't have any more buttons left to push other than the ones they've already tried which didn't go well then and there's no reason to expect they're going to go any better now. So it's a big problem.

[Sam Stein]

That's totally true. That's such a good point. It's like they're pro. I guess the one button they could push is to really go maximalist. But that's just how that ends positively is beyond me and a lot of other people.

[Charlie Sykes]

Yes, true. Like boots on the ground. They haven't tried that. But I think there's a reason they haven't and aren't going to and shouldn't. I mean like it's, there is absolutely zero political will for that that anywhere in the country they have not tried to raise it. And it's.

[Sam Stein]

I, there'd be a real freak out. There would be a real freak out. You mentioned the polling data and or you mentioned how people are feeling about the war which is a great segue because Politico did a poll that came out this morning around how the MAGA base and others feel about the Iran war. I'll just read from it. Half of President Donald Trump's MAGA base thought the Iran war was worth its economic costs in May. Now just a little more than a third Duke. That's a precipitous 13 point drop in just two months. According to new political poll reveals how the President's most die hard supporters are starting to agree with the majority of Americans who have Long opposed the U.S. involvement in the war. Additionally, 37% of self identified MAGA Trump voters say the U.S. should continue its involvement only if it doesn't increase costs which is up 20 from 29% who said the same in May. Yeah, those are bad numbers but when you're Donald Trump, you don't have to deal with these numbers because you can just invent your own numbers. And that's basically what he did today when he was en route to a dignified transfer. Let's play him talking about the polls.

[Charlie Sykes]

Well, Americans aren't against the war. The poll, a poll just came out. Americans don't want high gasoline prices, but they're not against the war.

[Sam Stein]

That just came out loud and clear in a poll.

[Charlie Sykes]

Nobody wants Iran to have a nuclear weapon. Do you want Iran to have a nuclear. Nuclear weapon?

[Sam Stein]

All right, so what do you make of that?

[Charlie Sykes]

Yeah. Anytime you hear Trump saying things like this, it's always interesting to try to speculate to what extent is this just him bullshitting and to what extent is him. Is this him actually being high on his own supply?

[Sam Stein]

Or wait, let me. Third option. People telling him stuff that they know he wants to hear.

[Charlie Sykes]

Right. Which I, Which I sort of lump into the high, high on the own supply thing that he's sort of living in this delusional headspace that does not match reality at all. Ordinarily, I think he lies less think. I think he genuinely is deluded about a lot of these things. But on this, in this case, he is spinning, he is bullshitting. He is trying to put a brave face on this. We know that he knows that the war, the ongoing war is a potential economic calamity for him and his presidency. And we know this because he's been talking about it in public. Right after the memorandum of understanding was signed last year, he went over to the G7 in France and he gave a big global speech where he was just really steamed the whole time at all his Iran hawk critics who were saying that was a deal that was too good for Iran. And he spent the whole speech talking in very explicit terms about how important it was for him to go get a deal because we were running out of oil around the world, that these, these petroleum stockpiles were going down, that we were three or four weeks in his own, stating at that time away from bedlam was the word that he used. And he did, he used bedlam.

[Sam Stein]

I forgot about that.

[Charlie Sykes]

Yeah, he said, he said, I don't remember exactly the framing, but. But you want to see bedlam. Something like that. And it was all in his normal Trump weave where he wasn't saying anything super directly, but that was the substance of what he was saying repeatedly. And he did use the word bedlam. And another thing he said repeatedly was that he had become sort of fixated on this idea that he doesn't want to go down in history as Herbert Hoover. And that was why it became so important to him to sign a deal. Well, there's no deal now. The Strait of Hormuz is back closed now. They haven't replenished any of those stockpiles. All that same stuff remains totally in, in effect, all those same pressures. And yet he's just back to where he was again, like a month before this memorandum of understanding, just really hoping that if he shakes, if he rattles the saber and threatens war crimes, that Iran will crack and cave. But it didn't work before, and I just don't know why anybody would expect it to go any differently now.

[Sam Stein]

Which brings us to the third potpourri topic, because there are deals going down, just not with Iran. And this deal potentially could complicate things further with Iran. This broke last night from the Journal, which was that the President Trump has formally approved a landmark agreement with Saudi Arabia that will provide the country with a civilian nuclear program and potentially open the door to uranium enrichment in the kingdom's territory, according to administration officials. You can have a argument on the merits about whether nuclear technology as an energy source is useful, is in fact, environmentally sound, that you should be encouraging it. And you can even make a case that the Saudis, we could sign off on that because I. You can make the case. Let's just put that way. And yet it's so obvious that there are problems with this approach. One is in the past. And we can get to the clip because Marco Rubio, Senator, had this legislation that he introduced. The idea was that you would approve any agreement with the Saudi Arabian government to allow them to pursue nuclear power if they had both approval of the United States Senate and implicitly if they agreed to normalize relationships with Israel. That's not the case here. So let's play this clip from today of Representative Sherman talking to Mike Waltz. Just about Rubio in that it's Senator Rubio and I in 2018 introduced the no Nuclear Weapons for Saudi Arabia act, which mandated that any agreement with Saudi Arabia would have to have the affirmative approval of the United States Congress. And I miss Senator Rubio. The Secretary Rubio takes a completely different position. So that's one. And obviously this isn't supposed to be a nuclear weapon. This is for civilian use. But you get the point. The second big problem, Andrew, is that you are simultaneously waging a war with Iran where you say they cannot possess nuclear technology and enrich uranium, even though the Iranian government, all the caveats applied, says, oh, this is just for civilian use. We're not pursuing a nuclear weapon. We've never said we're going to pursue a nuclear weapon. How do you argue that the Iranians can't do this and that it's worth fighting a war for while simultaneously cutting an agreement with the Saudis, who obviously have, you know, complicated, let's put it that way, relations with the United States. One need to look back to 9, 11. A lot of the high hijackers were from Saudi Arabia. It seems discordant.

[Charlie Sykes]

I think discordant is a pretty good word for it, Sam. I mean, I guess, I guess if you want to look at it with the, with the sort of short term realpolitic lens of how Donald Trump has scrambled our relations with these various countries. I mean, as far as he is concerned, these Arab Gulf states are like the best allies the United States has. Right. He loves them, he loves their leaders. He loves the treatment he gets when he goes over there. He loves the way that they have defeated, deployed their sovereign wealth funds to enrich him and his family and to make all of these promises about investment in the United States to fulfill his political pledges here at home.

[Sam Stein]

They gave him a jet.

[Charlie Sykes]

Yeah, exactly. To him it's not like, well, Qatar did, but to him it's not like, why should Saudi Arabia be allowed to have this and not Iran? For him, it's more like why should Germany be allowed to deploy nuclear power and not Saudi Arabia for civilian purposes? And there's also an element of, you know, sorry about kicking off this giant conflict in your neighborhood. I know that has not been going super well for you. Maybe we'll throw you a bit of a bone here. There's a little bit of that in play too. But I do think the fact that there is this giant conflagration of a conflict, it is not necessarily exactly the right moment for everybody to feel super confident about new nuclear reactors going up. Even, even in the best of hands, you know, anywhere in the neighborhood of Iran. And these places where ballistic missiles are

[Sam Stein]

just kind of, I mean, look, the Iranians are just going to say, what the hell? Like, why are they allowed to have this and we're not?

[Charlie Sykes]

Yeah, I mean, I don't know. Like, I feel like the. Does it actually harden any particular Iranian demand here when all this stuff is at the point of a gun?

[Sam Stein]

And the, but it also, it also, it also hampers our, our moral high ground.

[Charlie Sykes]

Credibility. Moral high ground.

[Sam Stein]

Oh, sorry, have we got any of that?

[Charlie Sykes]

Are we, is there any more of that left to say?

[Sam Stein]

That was into the White House wall with golden ornament. We're in trouble.

[Charlie Sykes]

Yeah, I don't know. It's bad. But I like nuclear power.

[Sam Stein]

I like, it's going to be good for.

[Charlie Sykes]

It's Going to be good for the American nuclear industry. You know, we get to sell them a bunch of this stuff. They don't get to do their own enrichment yet. They might later, but under the, under the terms of this deal, we would be supplying them with a lot of the fuel and things like that. Which to be fair is also an agreement that we pitched to Iran early in this conflict, if you remember. You know, we were like, well, what if, what if we let you keep your nuclear program? And actually when you were saying that earlier, this had not yet reoccurred to me. So this is the response to what I think what you were saying a minute ago is, well, this deal that we're striking with Saudi Arabia is actually basically what we did offer to Iran. That they would get rid of their own domestic enrichment capabilities. We would enrich stuff, we would deliver it to them. They could use it for power generation and civilian use. Iran, somewhat understandably from their own point of view, was like, why should we trust you for that? We insist on our own sovereign right to do our own civilian enrichment. And that was the big sticking point there. So I guess Saudi Arabia is a little bit more willing because they're better friends to us. We're not bombing them. We're better friends to them, I should say, in recent years. So they are more willing to go along with that deal because there's more trust there than Iran has been.

[Sam Stein]

Fair enough. That's a good, that's a good context to have here. And I appreciate you and that's why we have you on this because you're smart and thoughtful and you love gold

[Charlie Sykes]

and you can talk. Those are my, the big three things about me. Yeah.

[Sam Stein]

Thank you. It's great having you back, buddy. It really is. Honestly, we missed you. Morning Shots was not the same without you. So it's great having you.

[Charlie Sykes]

It's fun to be back.

[Sam Stein]

Everyone should read Morning Shots. Everyone should subscribe to the Bulwark. Everyone should subscribe to our YouTube page. We got to up that follower count. Please folks, like and share. Talk to you soon. Later.

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[Charlie Sykes]

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[Charlie Sykes]

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