Trump Posts (Then Deletes) Image of Himself as Jesus, Picks Fight with The Pope

Summary

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Bulwark Takes: Trump Posts (Then Deletes) Image of Himself as Jesus, Picks Fight with The Pope

Date: April 13, 2026
Host: JVL
Guest: Will Saletan

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Episode Overview

This episode of Bulwark Takes dives into a wild news cycle moment: President Donald Trump’s public attack on Pope Leo XV, the head of the Catholic Church, followed by a now-deleted post on Truth Social depicting himself as Jesus Christ in an AI-generated tableau. Hosts JVL and Will Saletan provide a sharp, irreverent, and sometimes sobering take on what these events say about Trump, American Christianity, and political culture.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Trump’s Attack on the Pope (00:45–10:21)

• JVL recounts the sequence: Trump launched a "giant attack on the head of the Catholic Church, the Holy Father, Pope Leo XV,” calling him “weak on crime and terrible for foreign policy," referencing both the Pope’s approach to COVID and claiming Leo’s papacy was thanks to Trump’s own political movement.

• Saletan’s reaction: “Every time I think that I have some extreme notion of what Donald Trump is or what he would do, he just goes and literally... posts an attack on the Pope? And then follows up with the Jesus thing like, you know, in case that wasn't offensive enough.” (03:12)

• Treating Pope as Politician: The hosts highlight Trump’s framing of the Pope as a mere political rival, rather than a spiritual leader, pitting him “against the Catholic Church and other Catholics by saying, you're not standing up for the Catholics who couldn’t do services during COVID.” (Will, 03:40)

• “Landslide” Delusions:

  • Trump refers to his own electoral victories as landslides while ignoring that Popes are chosen by overwhelming consensus.
  • “Leo did win a landslide at the conclave... It has to be a landslide. You can't win the conclave by just stringing together 270 electoral votes.” (JVL, 04:29)

• Trump’s Narcissism and the Papacy:
  Will: “Donald Trump thinks he is responsible for the Pope’s election... someone who thinks that if someone opposes a war and it's his war, then it's all about him, and it's not about Catholic doctrine. Someone like that can't really understand the idea of religious liberty, can he?” (11:40)

2. The Religious Liberty Irony (11:40–14:21)

• Trump is often lauded as a defender of “religious liberty,” but the hosts point out this is transactional and only applies to groups loyal to him.
  • JVL: “Trump wants to ban Muslims from entering the country... There is no universe in which Trump even conceives of religious liberty.” (12:34)
  • Saletan asks how such a worldview squares with the authentic protections of religious liberty (11:40).
• The irony: Even the President of Iran issues a statement defending the Pope against Trump, leading JVL to joke, “The Iranians are able to speak more forthrightly about it than Bishop Robert Barron.” (13:31)

3. MAGA Christianity and Bishop Barron’s Response (10:21–13:31, 31:35–38:13)

• Bishop Barron: A MAGA-adjacent Catholic leader, put out a weak statement asking Trump to apologize to the Pope but couched it in praise for Trump’s “dedication to defending religious liberty.”
  • JVL comment: “Notice, the passive voice. I think that the president owes the Pope an apology. It's inappropriate and disrespectful. This fucking guy.” (11:40)
• The discussion turns to whether US Catholicism is being transformed or merely exposed as Christian nationalist under Trump.
  • JVL: “…Trump has done is either turn or expose American Christianity more into Christian nationalism... there is a very, very different vibe now than there was 10 years ago.” (31:35)

4. The AI "Jesus Trump" Image—Full Breakdown (17:41–25:34, 22:24–23:56)

• Description: The post showed Trump in the role of Jesus, laying hands on a dying man, surrounded by a surreal AI-generated cast: eagles, jets, the Statue of Liberty, soldiers, a nurse, mobs, and bizarre multi-armed or headless figures.

  • JVL: “Bald eagle soaring... fireworks... Greco Roman columns... soldier staring up with tears in his eyes... patient at death’s door... a hand with an extra forefinger... a woman with elongated fingers... another eagles... and, in the center, Jesus Trump.” (17:41–21:52)

• AI Weirdness: The hosts playfully inventory the oddities of the image—extra fingers, headless and winged figures, four-armed demigorgons: “Like he's a fucking demigorgon or something.” (JVL, 21:52)

• Trump’s Response:

  • When asked about the image, Trump dodges: “It wasn’t a depiction. It was me...I thought it was me as a doctor...only the fake news could come up with that one.” (Donald Trump, 22:24)

  • JVL: “Last time I was in a doctor's office, the doctor did not emerge wearing a magnificent seamless white garment with crimson robes on top. He did not have glowing light emerging from his hand like he had just reached into Marcellus Wallace’s briefcase.” (23:05)

• Will’s Take: “Trump goes with the doctor idea here, and he says it's the fake news that would challenge that...He was, like, sent to earth to test the credulity of his followers.” (24:26)

5. Historical & Theological Perspective (25:34–29:41)

• Not Trump's first religious appropriation: the hosts reference a previous post-Trump-as-Pope meme.
• On the accusation of being weak on crime, JVL notes: “Do you know who is notoriously weak on crime, Will? Jesus Christ. He would often sup with tax collectors and prostitutes...” (26:48)

6. American Catholicism Under Strain (33:35–38:13)

• Historical context: The American Catholic Church has handled dissent and controversy before, but this moment is different for its overt politicization.
  • JVL: “This is like a little different because it's not even really scandalous. It's just inserting politics into a realm that used to exist, like in a really spiritual place.” (33:54)
• On future prognosis: The direction of priestly formation in the “Trump era” is uncertain; JVL doubts the church is prepared for its repercussions.
  • JVL: “I am interested to see what the generation of priests arising from this moment will be like...Will they be more like Pope Leo or Bishop Barron? And, man, I'm not excited to find that out.” (36:27)

7. Is There a Line for Trump? (38:13–38:53)

• Will’s cautious optimism: “The fact that Donald Trump did pull down that image of himself as Jesus, that says to me, at least we found some figure that Donald Trump cannot politically attack or cannot politically insult...maybe that means there is a limit to this narcissist's ability to pull the public and his own supporters in the direction of his blasphemy.”
• JVL’s pessimism: “Maybe, but that's a pretty thin read, man.” (38:53)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Trump’s narcissism:
  “Trump seems to be treating Leo the same way he's treated every other person in this, which is to make as many enemies as possible, to pick as many fights as possible.” (Will, 09:42)

• Blasphemy breakdown:
  “He did not emerge wearing a magnificent seamless white garment with crimson robes on top. He did not have glowing light emerging from his hand like he had just reached into Marcellus Wallace's briefcase.” (JVL, 23:05)

• On Christian doctrine:
  “Do you know who is notoriously weak on crime, Will? Jesus Christ. He would often sup with tax collectors and prostitutes.” (JVL, 26:48)

• On the AI art’s weirdness:
  “Like he's a fucking demigorgon or something.” (JVL, 21:52)

• On Christian compassion:
  “The Jesus model is admirable, beautiful. It's something that we should all strive for. And the fact that Donald Trump has chosen that particular aspect of Christianity to oppose himself to...is one of the most damning things about his presidency and his life.” (Will, 31:35)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:45 — Intro & Trump’s attack on Pope Leo XV
• 03:09 — Will reacts to Trump’s posts; “pitting the Pope against the Church”
• 10:21 — The Barron response and “religious liberty” paradox
• 13:31 — Even Iran defends the Pope against Trump
• 17:41 — Deep-dive: AI image of “Jesus Trump” breakdown
• 22:24 — Trump’s live defense: “It was me as a doctor”
• 25:34 — History of Trump’s quasi-blasphemy (Trump-as-Pope meme)
• 26:48 — Theology: “Jesus is weak on crime”
• 31:35 — Has Trump changed American Christianity?
• 33:35 — Has US Catholicism been tested like this before?
• 36:27 — The generation of priests formed under Trump
• 38:13 — Did Trump finally find a line by deleting the image?

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Final Thoughts

Bulwark Takes delivers its signature mix: irreverent, insightful analysis that deconstructs political spectacle while grounding it in history, theology, and cultural context. JVL and Will Saletan probe the absurd and the profound, asking whether Trump’s unprecedented stunts expose the state of American faith—and whether anything can still shock, or limit, this era’s political id.

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Memorable Image, Summed Up:
Trump, glowing hands and all, as AI-generated Jesus surrounded by eagles, nurses with weird fingers, and “demigorgons,” all presiding over a collision of nationalism, politics, and religion—a picture, as JVL says, “of our blasphemous times.”

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Transcript

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[JVL]

Wow. Hello, everyone. I am JVL here with my friend Will Saletan from the Bulwark. And, guys, we. We're gonna do something fun. We don't get to have a lot of fun around here. President of the United States went on a heater last night, and it began with an attack on the Pope, and it ended up with a Truth Social tweet in which he depicted himself as Christ Jesus, the son of God. That's. That's not it. That's Sam. I understand Sam and him look a lot alike. There we go. This is a real thing that happened in the year of our Lord 2026. That. That is Trump. Jesus or Jesus? Trump. Unclear as to who or which appearing to cure a man who is either dead or dying or maybe just sleeping, maybe sick, while a bunch of adoring white folks peer up at him. And we're gonna do a full breakdown on this unbelievable piece of blasphemy in a little bit. But first, Will, this is. This is like the movie trope, you know, record scratch, freeze frame. You're probably wondering how I wound up here, and the answer is that 46 minutes before he posted that the President put out a giant attack on the head of the Catholic Church, the Holy Father, Pope Leo the 15th. Or as I like to call him, Bobby White Sox from Chi Town, my boy Robert Prevost. And this is what he. I won't read the whole thing, but Pope Leo is weak on crime and terrible for foreign policy, etc. Etc. Etc. He then starts talking about COVID of course, he mentions his landslide victory in 2024 and the stock market, because why wouldn't he? And then talks about Jesus and how weak Leo is on crime and how he's bad for the Catholic Church. And also he says that Leo would never have been elected Pope if it hadn't been for him. Donald Trump will, you are not of the Catholic persuasion. You're not a Papist like me. So how does this all strike you?

[Will Saletan]

Oh, my Lord. Oh, my Lord.

[JVL]

I.

[Will Saletan]

Okay, so jvl, every time I think that I have some extreme notion of what Donald Trump is or what he would do, he just goes and literally, I mean, does it this to literally post an attack on the Pope? And then the follow up with the Jesus thing was just like, you know, in case that wasn't offensive enough. So here's my impression. I mean, I read this insane tweet of his and correct me if I'm wrong, jvl, it looks to me like Donald Trump thinks that he can mount a conventional political attack on the Pope, as though the Pope is another politician. So in this tweet, what he does is he tries to pit the Pope against the Catholic Church and other Catholics by saying, you're not standing up for the Catholics who couldn't do services during COVID He smears him by calling him soft on crime. So we're going to pick some issues to attack you with and say that you're on the wrong side of some moral question, some political question. He says, I'm elected and you're not. Right. I have the landslide victory. You're attacking somebody who has the. I have the people. I have a mandate behind me. What mandate do you have?

[JVL]

Leo. Leo did win a landslide at the conclave. I mean, I just, I just say that because. Because it has to be a landslide. You can't win the conclave by just stringing together 270 electoral votes. That's not how it works.

[Will Saletan]

Was it by more than one and a half percent?

[JVL]

It was by a great deal more. I mean, I forget the exact percentage, but has to be like 70% or something like that, so.

[Will Saletan]

Well, we know that a landslide, according to Trump, is winning by one and a half percent. So therefore, Leo won by some super mega Maga landslide.

[JVL]

Yeah. By the way, Trump is doing a press conference right now and he's being asked about this. We're gonna, we're gonna get to all of that because I have it incoming to me live, because it's amazing. I will. No, no, I'm not gonna. I'm gonna make you guys wait. So Trump does see himself, I think, or he sees the Pope as just like the biggest influencer of them all. Right? Like the. The Pope is just Joe Rogan on Steroids. And I think that he also probably carries a vestigial in the way that he thinks Time magazine is really important because they do Time mana, you know, Times man of the year cover every year. He probably thinks the Pope is really important and so would prefer to have the Pope glazing him rather than criticizing him.

[Will Saletan]

Right. Like his brother the good says his.

[JVL]

Yeah, he says that Bobby's brother is good. I think, I think that there is some. I think the jury is out on that. Do. I mean I don't know how closely you follow papal pronouncements on things like American wars of choice. Are you, are you a close follower of them? Because not.

[Will Saletan]

Not closely. I did look at, I did look up what's the Pope has been saying since we went into Iran.

[JVL]

So I mean I would just say so if I had to ask you as a non Catholic, who are the Popes that Republicans really love? You would say Benedict. But even more than Benedict.

[Will Saletan]

Oh, John Paul.

[JVL]

John Paul. Right. Because John Paul is on John Paul ii. John Paul the Great, now that he's been sainted, is on the Republican Mount Rushmore with Reagan and Maggie Thatcher and like I don't know who else. Maybe you put Buckley up there. Right. People may not realize John Paul the Great was absolutely vehemently against the Iraq war. Gave a big old speech about it to the Vatican diplomatic corps two months before it was launched. Dispatched one of his made men, I forget which cardinal is Cardinal Luigi somebody or another, I think to. To the White House to meet personally with Bush and try to get him to not do it. Was lobbying the various European countries to try to get them to not participate. Said that this was all very bad. And this was, this was the conservative Pope, the good Republican Pope. My point here is being that all popes are against wars of choice. Like that's just the default option. That's what, that's what being the Pope means. It means you think war is bad. And Trump turns this into a. How he's got TDS that, that, that woke DEI Pope has a bunch of TDS in him. And it takes a certain amount of, of hubris to think that the Pope only dislikes your war because of you. Otherwise he would be totally on board with it.

[Will Saletan]

Right. So now. All right, so I got to confess, not a Pope watcher generally. Not a Catholic. What you just told me, I have no recollection of that. I have no recollection of John Paul or the Cardinals speaking out about that war. I certainly don't remember the President of the United States, a Republican choosing to respond to that in, in, in any way. I don't. Do you remember whether Bush.

[JVL]

No, it was, it was just like, very respectful, like, you know, comments after. It was. Because I do remember this. It was, you know, there was a press conference after the meeting and they were like, had a very respectful conversation with His Eminence and blah, blah, blah, blah. You know the way. And I'm not saying that I am not an integralist. I'm not saying that the political leadership of the United States needs to do what the Holy See tells it to do perfectly fine. I think, by me, if our political leadership comes to independent conclusions other than what the Holy Father asked them to do on this or that issue. But again, it's just crazy that Trump thinks it's all about him.

[Will Saletan]

Yeah. And now, so I'm trying to remember. So what you're describing happened at the beginning of the Iraq War. Right. We're going before.

[JVL]

Before, before the Iraq War. Before it was launched. The Iraq War was launched in March of 2003. This is all happening in, like, December and January.

[Will Saletan]

So I'm thinking about what this contrast tells us about the two presidents who were involved in this. So George W. Bush was trying to build the broadest possible coalition he could.

[JVL]

Yes.

[Will Saletan]

Friends. We need friends to support us. I'm not going to pick unnecessary fights. If someone criticizes me, I will go and meet with them. Trump seems to be treating Leo the same way he's treated every other person in this, which is to make as many enemies as possible, to pick as many fights as possible. It's just amazing that he would cross this line because of the multitude of people who follow the Pope and who would take this? I think, tell me if I'm wrong. Aren't there a lot of Catholics who are going to take, who are taking this attack on the Holy Father as an attack on them and their faith?

[JVL]

I mean, maybe, maybe. I don't know. We're going to get to that. That's a real open question about that. And I don't, I don't know. I know that he has created some unpleasantness for Bishop Robert Barron, who is one of the MAGA bishops in Americ, who is on the president's religious commission and who has stood around in the same room while Paula White compares Trump to Jesus and stuff like that. And Bishop Barron just sits there and do. To do. He's like, who I was, Gresham Whitmer. Right. Who like, held up the thing in front of her. But Baron's into it. He just doesn't like it being uncomfortable. And so he put out a. Can we put that up? Bishop Barron's tweet today. I mean, this is the long. I am very grateful for the many ways that the Trump administration has reached out to Catholics and other people of faith. It has been a high honor to serve on the Religious Liberty Commission. No president in my lifetime has shown a greater dedication to defending our first liberty. All that said, I think the president owes. What a. Notice, the passive voice. I think that the president owes the Pope an apology. It's inappropriate and disrespectful. This fucking guy.

[Will Saletan]

I don't understand, though, the. So this is a common defense of Trump that he is a big advocate of religious liberty. There's the whole King David thing. There's the whole, well, he's mean, he's nasty, he violates all of the virtues we're supposed to believe in, but he does it on our side. Right? But then there's this religious liberty thing. He speaks a lot about religious liberty. I don't understand, though, how some. A narcissist, what you have described someone who thinks that he is responsible for the Pope's election. Right. And that if someone opposes a war and it's his war, then it's all about him, and it's not about Catholic doctrine. Someone like that can't really understand the idea of religious liberty, can he? I mean, he would understand the liberty to speak out in defiance of liberals or the left, but the liberty to speak out in a way that contradicts something Donald Trump has said. I don't think he would recognize. Donald Trump would recognize that as part of religious liberty.

[JVL]

I mean, Trump doesn't understand. Trump. Trump wants to ban Muslims from entering the country. Right. I mean, this is. There is no universe in which Trump even conceives of religious liberty. He might conceive of. I have client groups, and evangelical Christians are my clients, so I want to give them the things they want. But that doesn't mean it's religious liberty. Right? Because that would mean also granting liberty to religions he doesn't like and to groups that are not friends to him. And that is not something he has any interest in. Right. I mean, this is the thing about liberty arguments is that you wind up having to defend people who aren't on your side. That is not something Donald Trump has ever or will ever do. I. I want to put up. Hey, Matt, can you put up the thing that we just. You just grabbed for me, so.

[Will Saletan]

What a.

[JVL]

What a world. We live in, in which the Iranians are defending the honor of the Pope against the President of the United States. This is a real thing. This happened. Look at this, Will, look at this. And the Iranians are able to speak more forthrightly about it than Bishop Robert Barron.

[Will Saletan]

Can I just put a little caveat on this, though? I'm a little bit uncomfortable with the President of Iran saying that speaking against the desecration of the Prophet is not acceptable because, you know, it's not as though Iran is obviously is a great paragon of religious liberty.

[JVL]

No, but hypocrisy is the tribute vice pays to virtue. And at least the Iranians feel like they've got to pay that tribute. This is.

[Will Saletan]

Can you imagine though, in the White House, there's supposed to be political people in the Republican Party, there's supposed to be political people who can advise someone like Donald Trump about what's smart or not smart to say they are being outclassed just as a matter of pure political acumen by the staff of the President of Iran, who's who seem well more aware of how to play to the crowd here by speaking on behalf of Jesus.

[JVL]

We see. I mean, he's just talking like a regular politician. And people really praise. They really prize Trump's ability to be plain spoken and whatnot. So he was just asked. This is being fed to me by Jasmine. Thank you, Jasmine. Question at the press conference that's happening right now. Will you apologize to pump to Pope Leo Trump? No, I won't, because Pope Leo said things that are wrong. He's very weak on crime. His brother is a big MAGA person and he's great. Louis. I like Louis better than I like the Pope. There's nothing to apologize for. That's a real thing. That's all happening right now. I want to talk. I mean, it's amazing. I want to talk a little bit about that picture. We have to talk to the picture. And I want to go very, very deep on the picture of Trump. Jesus or Jesus? Trump. Before we can do that, I'm sorry, we have to. A little bit of commerce. Somebody has to keep the lights on here. Here's a quick word from our sponsors and we'll be right back.

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[JVL]

Okay, so we, we're going to have to, we have to do this photo again. So this, this is a real thing that happened. Again, I want to. Donald Trump has subsequently deleted this post. This seems to be an AI adaptation of another AI generated image originally done by a guy named Nick Adams, I think is his name. Oh, yeah, I, I mean, let's just. Well, let's just go around the horn. All right, we're going to start at 1 o'. Clock. 1 o'. Clock. We have a bald eagle soaring. Then we have three very indistinct and wrongly proportioned fighter jets, followed by fireworks, followed by the Statue of Liberty. It's like a fucking ramp.

[Will Saletan]

JBL. Are those F15s? What are those?

[JVL]

No, they're. They're not a real plane. Okay, so those, those are like, it's AI Slop fighter jet. Okay, we have the columns of some sort of Greco Roman temple slash monument. We have not the ballroom.

[Will Saletan]

Right? That's not the ballroom.

[JVL]

Well, it could be. We don't know. You know, we have a, a soldier staring up with tears in his eyes. A big guy, very tough guy who has UNIT insignia patches on his hat which are indistinct. They're just gobbledygook.

[Will Saletan]

Is he the one who was risen on Easter?

[JVL]

No, no, that would Be an airman. Okay.

[Will Saletan]

Now. Yes, sorry.

[JVL]

We then have a nurse. We have now at 6 o' clock, our patient who is in a hospital gown and who. I don't know. Do you think he's dead? Do you think he's alive? Do you think he's sleeping or sick? It's up to you. What's your call?

[Will Saletan]

He. My. My call is he's at death's door. But not dead yet.

[JVL]

Not dead yet. We then have a hand, another white hand reaching in on the bottom left corner. Corner. This hand has an extra forefinger tucked in behind the original forefinger. We move up to the young lady who is praying. She. She has like, et Elongated fingers. Like her fingers are three inches too long. And also she's missing the forefinger on her right hand.

[Will Saletan]

Isn't that the sign of the beast?

[JVL]

Okay, we then get a. A gentleman with a. With a beard and a camo hat. Again, indistinct the original version of this, it says veteran on it. Like it's so on the nose, this. It's. The AI just fuzzes it behind him. We have scenes of what looks. It's like a mob of people. Just like a mass of people in front of a building. Like it's supposed to be a callback to January 6th. An American flag, another bald eagle. In the center. We have Jesus Trump, who is laying hands on his patient and has something glowing in his left hand. But I'd like to draw your attention to the top of the frame. Will we have five, five figures in the firmament. If you were to look closely and please, if you are listening to this and you're not subscribed to my newsletter, go and subscribe because I. I did a full, full, full breakdown of this. The two figures on the left look to be basically version variants of snake eyes. The G.I. joe character. Slash action action figure on the. The far left or, sorry, on the far right. It looks like Storm Shadow, another GI Joe character. And then one in from him, a jet fighter pilot. But you gotta look at that center of figure there. It's headless. He simply has three spines emerging from his neck. And it looks here like he's winged. But if you zoom on in, he's not winged. He has four arms. So those are. Those are two arms going up like this and then two more arms down like that. Like he's a fucking demigorgon or something.

[Will Saletan]

Yeah, sounds like it looks kind of Hindu then.

[JVL]

Hindu or Egyptian or something from Tobin Spirit Guide who can.

[Will Saletan]

Vikings. Could be Viking. Norse thing. Yeah. Okay.

[JVL]

Could be Norse. This is. This is a thing that the President of the United States said. Yes, I'm going to put that out on my social media account now. He was asked about this and we have some video, Matt, picture of yourself depicted as Jesus Christ.

[Donald Trump]

Well, it wasn't depiction. It was me. I. I did post it and I thought it was me as a doctor and had to do with Red Cross, as a Red Cross worker there, which we support. And only the fake news could come up with that one. So I, I had. I just heard about it and I said, how did they come up with that? It's supposed to be me as a doctor making people better. And I do make people better. I make people a lot better. As an example, the 11,000. I understand your husband's going through treatment.

[Will Saletan]

Yes, sir. Yes, sir.

[Donald Trump]

He's going through some very serious cancer treatment. So. Yes, this goes a long way again.

[JVL]

Matt, can you just put the picture back up again? Last time I was in a. In a doctor's office, the doctor did not emerge wearing a magnificent seamless white garment with crimson robes on top. He did not have glowing light emerging from his hand like he had just reached into Marcellus Wallace's briefcase. And where's the Red Cross worker? I don't see a Red Cross worker.

[Will Saletan]

You can sort of imagine that the nurse sort of represents the red. I mean, if we want to do a creative interpretation, the kind of woke interpretation. This is a right wing woke interpretation. So the nurse would be kind of red Crossy. Trump would be the doctor that. The implement in the flash, the light there, that's the thing that the doctor looks into your ear with. Right, that's the little.

[JVL]

But it's emerging from his palm, from

[Will Saletan]

his stigmata, because he's. Yeah, we have to work.

[JVL]

He's not holding an implement. Right. You would. You would hold the implement like this. He is opening the cup and like, you know, from his stigmata is emerging light. Will.

[Will Saletan]

Right.

[JVL]

Jasmine says a doctor who heals you by touching your forehead. Exactly. So, Will, what do you make of this?

[Will Saletan]

I. So as an outsider to Christianity, when I see an image like, well, obviously it's just AI garbage that they. They pulled together. I mean, I could have imagined some Maga. Fake Christians are actually. Call them fake Christians. Some. Some Christian who thinks that Maga. Christianity is Maga. I could see them constructing some Book of Revelations type interpretation of this thing. You know, there are various beasts and demons and angels floating around this. And you can make excuses for all of it. I wouldn't go with the doctor thing, it's kind of remarkable that Trump goes with the doctor idea here, and he says it's the fake news that would challenge that. Because, I mean, I think of Donald Trump sometimes as this amazing political creature who is out there. He was, like, sent to earth to test the credulity of his followers. Right? And here's an example where you have this picture which you could interpret in multiple ways, but one of them ain't that he's a doctor. And the President goes out and says, obviously, I'm a doctor in this picture.

[JVL]

I, I here. I will introduce to the record that this is not the first time that Trump has been quasi blasphemous. He did depict himself as the Pope fairly recently. I don't know if people recall that. I guess it's not recently. I guess it's a full year ago.

[Will Saletan]

So, wait, that was right after Leo became Pope, right?

[JVL]

You know, don't ask me.

[Will Saletan]

Oh, it might have been. Right.

[JVL]

Oh, no, sorry. It was just days. Thank you, Matt. Just days after Pope Francis died. And so I think the gag was, who knows, you know, just like the speaker of the House doesn't need to be a member of the House of Representatives. Maybe it'll be me.

[Will Saletan]

So and so. Okay, so, yeah, so he's, he's basically putting himself up for Pope in that picture. So he doesn't get it. Cardinal Prevost becomes the Pope, and then Trump decides that he's gonna do his Maria Carina Machado routine about the like with the Nobel Prize, except it's about the papacy. So he says, okay, I'm not the Pope, but I am the person for whom this Pope, without whom this Pope wouldn't have gotten the job because he only got the job because he was American. To what? To counter me, I guess, was that was the message. But nevertheless, I take credit for everything, including the Pope.

[JVL]

Yes, yes, that's it. I would like to just, just very briefly do a tiny bit of theology on this, because, again, you're not a, you're not Christian. Will. The President attacked the Pope as being weak on crime. And I have to say he's right. It is true. The Pope is, in fact, weak on crime. Most Popes are weak on crime because. Not sure if you know this, but do you know who is notoriously weak on crime? Will. Jesus Christ. He. He would often sup with tax collectors and prostitutes. Whoa. He, He.

[Will Saletan]

Whoa. I can see the ads now. Tax collectors, prostitutes. We can't go.

[JVL]

Tax collectors and prostitutes. There was a woman who had been accused of adultery, was going to be stoned to death, which is the prescription in. In Old Testament law. And Jesus intervened and said, maybe you've heard of this. It's sort of a big famous thing. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. And he saved her life. While Jesus was, in fact being crucified, he told a thief that he would get to go with him to his Father's kingdom. A thief. This is a thing that happened. He instructed his disciples to visit and minister to prisoners. So it. It is funny to me because, again, like, this stuff is all like, oh, we can goof and dunk on how this guy, who American Christians all like clamor to, has zero understanding of Christianity. But it is. It's actually indicative of Trump's understanding of what crime is. Right? So. So Leo looks at the world and is like, it seems like it is bad when masked agents of the state gun down innocent civilians. It seems like it is bad when armies invade other countries. It seems like it is bad to threaten genocide or bomb girls schools. We're not overly concerned at the Catholic Church with paperwork, though. And so if a guy from Nicaragua comes into your country and gets a construction job and he doesn't have all the paperwork. Exactly. Right. We don't think this is a very big deal. And Trump is the opposite. Like Trump said, like, the crime is the brown person coming to America and getting a job. All the other stuff, not crime. And so that's like, the heart of this worldview here. Hey, sweetie. Your mother showed me this Carvana thing

[Donald Trump]

for selling the car.

[JVL]

I'm gonna give it a try. Wish me luck. Me again. I put in the license plate. It gave me an offer. Unbelievable. Okay, I accepted the offer. They're picking it up Tuesday from the driveway. I haven't even left my chair. It's done. The car is gone. I'm holding a check anyway. Carvana. Give it a whirl. Love ya.

[VRBO Advertiser]

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[JVL]

Can I, Can I. I don't know, man.

[Will Saletan]

Can I just say, as a non Christian. Okay, so I'm a Jew, kind of an agnostic Jew. I. I know Jewish scripture. I know some Christian scripture. What? You have just described the Jesus as the model, all the soft stuff, the weak stuff, the love, the forgiveness, the

[JVL]

dei, the DEI Jesus.

[Will Saletan]

All of that, to me, is the most attractive part of Christianity. It is the thing that I most admire about Christianity. It's a thing that I wish Judaism had more of. And Judaism, Reformed Judaism, strives to have more of it. You just described the stoning of the, of this woman that, that's commanded in the Old Testament. That's not a Muslim text. That's a Jewish text. Right. The, the Old Testament is full of, the Hebrew Testament is full of. Our God can beat up your God, the model of love and forgiveness, mercy. This is accentuated more and more in Christianity coming out of Judaism. And so to me, the Jesus model is admirable, beautiful. It's something that we should all strive for. And the fact that Donald Trump has chosen that particular aspect of Christianity to oppose himself to, to define himself against is one of the most damning things about his presidency and his life.

[JVL]

Yeah. And the effects. I don't know. Matt, do you have those, those little tweet reactions to Bishop Barron? So this is, look, this is just, you know, so I, I mentioned Robert Barron, the bishop, the maga bishop, his quasi, like, I think maybe give an apology. This is like some of the stuff you see underneath it. And these are, you know, who knows? For all I know, these are, you know, bots coming out of Slovenia or something and not, not genuine. I would say in my lived experience, I do see a fair amount of these sorts of apologetics for, for Donald Trump. And one of the things that Trump has done is either turn or expose American Christianity more into Christian nationalism. And we can argue about whether or not, like Trump has really done work here in moving American Christianity towards Christian nationalism or whether he's merely revealing it. It's probably a little bit of both, frankly. I can only say from my perch in the Catholic Church, there is a very, very different vibe now than there was 10 years ago. And that in American Catholicism now versus 10 years ago feels a lot more like American evangelical Christianity circa like 1992. And that has not been great. It's not been, not been super fun to watch. And so I, you know, like, I can't blame Donald Trump for that. People are all grown ups. They make their own choices. They're the ones who decide that they're going to go along with that thing or not. But I kind of hold a grudge over that thing.

[Will Saletan]

Can I ask you, jbl, since, you know, the history of this, has the American Catholic Church been tested in this way by someone daring to define himself against the Pope, against leadership and trying to pull Catholics away? And if so, or to what extent, in that case.

[JVL]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, so look, the American Catholic Church has always had lots of nuts running around and especially around, like Vatican 2, there was a huge, like, you know, how dare they. And, and the reality is that the Pope is not infallible. He's infallible in dogmatic matters. Right? You, you as a Catholic do not have to like or agree with every single thing the Pope says, right? If the Pope says the, the sky is, is green and not blue, that is not a dogmatic assertion. And you are free to say, no, it's not. The sky is in fact blue. That's, that's not how it works. There have been plenty of very, very bad popes, right? It's not, it's not like, it's not like every Pope. We had the Borgia popes, right? The Catholic Church has survived a lot of bad, bad stuff. The bubonic plague, the priest abuse scandals, the Borgias. Like, you know, there's a lot out there, but this is like a little different because it's not even really scandalous. It's just inserting politics into a realm that used to exist, like in a really spiritual place. And it's demystifying that in ways which, which are really bad and deleterious. And part of this is the same story about the collapse of our institutions across everything. You know, it's the same thing about Congress as it is about the media, as it is about academia, as it is about banking and lawyers and churches. This literally, you just look at the Pew surveys over the last 50 years, like, nobody trusts institutions of any kind, period. The end. And that's part of it. But, man, you wind up in a really black pilled, nihilistic place.

[Will Saletan]

I can, on the point of institutions, to me, the Catholic Church is one of the strongest institutions, obviously tested by the clergy scandals. But I wonder, given what you've just described about the changes you've seen over the last decade or so, what's the prognosis here? What faith do you have in the faith? What faith do you have in the flock to. To not be drawn away towards the blasphemy?

[JVL]

No idea. Couldn't, couldn't possibly guess. And you know, a lot of these things are cultural, a lot of them are individual. It is, it's like trying to predict how an ecosystem will respond to something. And the answer is like, you just don't know. It's, it's lit. In this case, literally scores of millions of people all having different individual experiences and coming to things at different times in their lives. And I am interested to see what the generation of priests arising from this moment will be like. So Catholics will frequently talk about generations of priests because a generation of rising priests will all have been guys who are formed by certain cultural moments. And so there will be like a big diversity, but there will be a gestalt for that generation of priests, right? And so we talk about the JP2 generation of priests. And so the, the, the flock of guys who became priests having all their formative years happen during John Paul's pontificate. And again, there were lots of different kinds. And, you know, you could find everybody from super liberal to super conservative type of priests, but you could also make generalizations and say, oh, yeah, I know what it means to be a JP2 priest. I wonder if we will get. We'll have been a decade, at least, maybe more of Trumpism, right? It'll be probably a decade and a half by the time all is said and done where there will be a bunch of people who become priests who were formed in this. And I will be very interested to see whether they are more like Pope Leo or more like Bishop Barron. And, man, I'm not excited to find that out.

[Will Saletan]

I'm far less qualified than you to prognosticate here. So I won't except to say the fact that Donald Trump did pull down that image of himself as Jesus, that says to me, at least, at least we found some figure that Donald Trump cannot politically attack or cannot politically insult. He got a lot of backlash from that. He has not withdrawn his criticism of the Pope, but he has withdrawn the blasphemous picture. And maybe that means there is a limit to this narcissist's ability to pull the public and his own supporters in the direction of his blasphemy.

[JVL]

Maybe, but that's a pretty thin read, man. That's a pretty thin read. All right, guys, listen, before we get out of here, hit like and hit subscribe. It really helps the channel out. And also, the Bulwark is going to California. I'm not going to be in California, but that's okay. It'll be wonderful without me. The presale for subscribers starts tomorrow at 9am Pacific, 12 Eastern. It runs through Friday when tickets go on sale for Gen Pop to everybody go to the bulwark.com events. Go to our events page for more information. I would just say if you're in the California area and you want to go to the shows, get your tickets sooner rather than later because these things do sell out faster than honestly, they have any reason to. It mystifies me. It's very gratifying. But. But it does mystify me that people just want to go. So if you want to go, go early and don't miss out. Will, thanks for riding with me. This was super duper fun. And, Matt, maybe. Maybe just give us Trump. Jesus one more time with the demigorgon above him. Yeah, that's right. Good luck, America.