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- [00:00]
Sam Stein
Hey guys, it's me, Sam Stein, managing editor at the Bulwark. I'm joined by the hardest working man in the business. He does not rest on Sundays. His name is Bill Kristol. You probably are not sick of him, but you've seen a lot of him today because he's got a show, he's got a comm coming tomorrow. Bill, thank you for doing this. I appreciate it.
- [00:16]
Bill Kristol
Good to be with you, Sam. You're the hardest. I want to say this though. You're the most obsessive, hardest working person by comparison. I'm kind of laid back. I'm going to play little league games and stuff. You know, I'm happy. Pleasant weekend, though. It's worth all the.
- [00:30]
Sam Stein
You're having a pleasant weekend. Good. I'm glad.
- [00:31]
Bill Kristol
Well, except it's worth all this time because this is a big moment. So I'm glad we're on.
- [00:34]
Sam Stein
Yeah. So we have like three or four stories that I want to tackle, but I think they're kind of tied together through the same thread. Obviously the big one is what's happening in LA where there's these protests of these ice rays resulting in these confrontations. I know you talked about with Adrian today. We have the National Guard deployed, although it's unclear if they're active. We have threats of the military being deployed as well. That has not happened yet. That's one. Two is you have this morning and overnight Terry Moran, a veteran ABC journalist who just interviewed Donald Trump a couple weeks ago, put out some post where he called Stephen Miller hateful and vile and said he was driven by disgust with, I don't know whatever you want to say, but he was essentially targeted afterwards by all of Trump world, including the Vice president, who said ABC's got to do something about this guy, they should fire him, yada, yada, yada. And lo and behold, ABC has put him on leave while they investigate the situation. So that's two and then three is a little less interesting, but I think fits in the same genre, which is there's this thing going on between California and the administration beyond what's happening in la. Donald Trump is starting to freeze or it's been hinted that he's going to freeze all federal funding to California, which is extraordinary, just extraordinary decision. Gavin Newsom, the governor said, well, if that happens, we might not pay our taxes. We pay more taxes to the federal government than we get back in services. We're fees, theater, state. And then today the treasure sticker Terry Scott Bessant said that would be tax evasion and we would come down hard on you if you do that. I'll get into why I think that fits into all this. But, Bill, what do you make of these three stories? And just generally what seems to be concrete acts of intimidation time and again.
- [02:23]
Bill Kristol
They'Re all interesting and we should talk about them. And they all have some different angles on this moment, but I think the moment is a big moment and people can, you know, parse it and the lawyers can explain it's not quite the Insurrection act. And they haven't yet. We don't yet see the armed. If you look at the president's declaration last night, it's something. This is. They've wanted to do this. They're doing it. They wanted to use an excuse in some of the resistance to their mass deportation policy. There was a little violence, no question, but nothing compared to other cases where they've called out the National Guard. And he wanted to set the precedent that, okay, armed, you know, military, military, they're only protecting federal facilities and functions. Kind of a flexible term, that last one, but that's what allows them to do it short of the Insurrection Act. But I think it's a bit. I don't know if it's quite crossing the Rubicon, but it's certainly crossing one of the tributaries that leads up to the Rubicon. If the Rubicon has. I assume it does have tributaries running into it. And I think it's. No, it's a big moment. And I would say generally the people I've talked to, of course, couple of threads I'm on and lawyers and just skimming around on Blue sky and Twitter, people still want to kind of make it semi normal and oh, man, that's kind of something he's doing, huh? If he does this today and gets away, let's assume he doesn't go further. Let's assume it subsides. Let's assume three days from now the National Guard are. Well, they were actually mobilized for 60 days, but let's assume he doesn't call it the Marines and stuff. Next riot. Next time there's a riot where they go to Wichita, they go to a Hispanic area there, they go to a Home Depot, they hire some people. There's a. A little bit of a disturbance. Calling out the National Guard. You're laying the predicate for what Trump has dreamed of. We know this in 2020, right from Lafayette park and stuff, using the military domestically. So I think it's a very big moment.
- [04:03]
Sam Stein
What did Esper say about Lafayette Park? Didn't he say Trump asked if he could shoot the protesters.
- [04:09]
Bill Kristol
So I've been assuming that the immigration stuff Adrian and I discussed, this was kind of a. A means towards the authoritarian end. It's. Trump discovered in 2015, it's a very, very effective issue to demagogue. He. He discovered it throughout his first term and then 2023, 2024, rediscovered it again. He's got people around him who really believe it, but I still sort of assumed it was kind of a MacGuffin to use that term from Hitchcock movies. You know, it's kind of the excuse. It furthers.
- [04:37]
Sam Stein
You're dating yourself.
- [04:39]
Bill Kristol
I'm embarrassed about that. But you know what? Some of us like watching the classics anyway. It's the way you get to where you're going. It furthers the plot, but it's not the point of it. But. But I think I underestimated that. I thought about this. Mass deportation. Think about the. Help me think about this for a minute, Sam, as you're good at.
- [04:55]
Sam Stein
Sure.
- [04:55]
Bill Kristol
Think of the term. I mean, it's very striking that they chose that term. Those are on the plackets at the Republican Convention. Right. They could have said deportation of criminals, deportation of criminal aliens, deportation of dangerous aliens. There are a million ways they could have said things that would have been alarming. Oh, my God. They chose mass deportation. That is what they want. Why would you want mass deportation? You want mass deportation because you think the country has too many brown or black people and foreign people in it. I mean, that's. Be honest. Right. Because otherwise it's not deportation of people who are dangerous simply, or who are violent or who are even taking other people's job. I mean, and the fact that going after people who are lining up, going to courthouses to register, who are lining up for jobs at a Home Depot parking lot, you know, says it all. Right.
- [05:41]
Sam Stein
And well, to me, it's like they want to.
- [05:43]
Bill Kristol
They.
- [05:43]
Sam Stein
First of all, Esper. I was right. He did. Esper said that he did this. NPR said Trump asked about shooting protesters. So this is. I was right about this. This is when Esper did his book tour. But to your point, I think. And this is where I. I'll bring in the other stories, I think. Yeah, they want to. They want to pick fights with people who can't fight back. Or they, they want to. They. Or they. Or they get so caught up in these. Like, they're not caught up. They try to elevate these, these fights into something much larger. And so here you have, like, for instance, you know, prior to l A, there was something in San Diego where they were, you know, raiding a restaurant and there's riots there. And it's very evident to me that they like the idea of people protesting against ICE agents because it gives them the predicate to say, oh, you're going to do that? We'll call in the guard. I want to play a clip from this morning. Mark Wynne Mullen, senator from Oklahoma, he was asked about the scene in Paramount, California, which is, you know, it's a protest. It is a protest. There's vehicles on fire. Not gonna, like, sugarcoat it. It's not a great scene, but it's not like nothing. It's nothing we've not seen before. This is what Mark Wayne Mullen had to say.
- [06:52]
Mark Wayne Mullen
Think about this. They were literally out there protesting, carrying a foreign flag. That is absolutely insane. I mean, they're not just peaceful protesters. These are illegals. These are exactly why the President is trying to secure our border. All right, well, carrying a flag is.
- [07:08]
Bill Kristol
Is not illegal, as you know.
- [07:11]
Mark Wayne Mullen
And I just want to flag while you're attacking. While you're attacking law enforcement. It's pretty bad. That's a different question.
- [07:20]
Sam Stein
That's extraordinary. Is that really the craziest thing Mark Wayne Mullen has ever seen? Is that insane to him? I mean, it's one dude with a Mexican flag and a motorcycle. Like, what are you talking about? And there's Stephen Miller tweeting this morning about this whole thing. He says, we've been saying for years, this is a fight to save civilization. Anyone with eyes can see that. Now. What are we talking about, save civilization? I mean, it's like, it's a. It's a confined protest of ICE raids that are already highly aggressive and tearing up communities are.
- [07:52]
Mark Wayne Mullen
We were.
- [07:52]
Sam Stein
This is saving civilization. I mean, the extraordinary rhetoric here to amp it up to 11 is, I think, a feature.
- [07:59]
Bill Kristol
Totally a feature. I mean, so two points I'd make. On the one hand, I think it's very much. I've always focused on this, the amping up to 11 to justify the authoritarianism. And I think that's very true. And, oh, there's a Mexican flag. I guess we're just. We can call it the National Guard. I mean, no one's ever seen foreign flags.
- [08:12]
Sam Stein
Oh, no.
- [08:13]
Bill Kristol
On the streets of New York.
- [08:14]
Sam Stein
If it was a Don't Tread on Me flag, that's fine. But if it's a Mexican flag, they.
- [08:19]
Bill Kristol
Go into an 82%, I believe, Hispanic town paramount near LA suburb. Really, I guess ex server LA. And. And they do A raid on. In a, you know, in a Home Depot parking lot where nowhere. People are assembling for their jobs. And, and they expect there to be no opposition. Of course they wanted the opposition. I totally agree with that. So in that respect, it's all an excuse for the authoritarianism. But I would come back.
- [08:42]
Sam Stein
Well, that's why, Bill, you said they might raid Wichita. No, I disagree with you. Well, we're gonna raid Wichita.
- [08:47]
Bill Kristol
No. Well, I think it is interesting. It's la. Because that's, of course, as, as, as Adrian pointed out to me, there are a million undocumented immigrants in California. So you're, you're picking a fight where you can do it. But I would say Steve Miller believes that that's why they're from. I've thought about this. They're crazy from a certain conventional political point of view. Close the border, deport a thousand criminals. Say we're going about now reducing the number of immigrants. We're going to gradually let people leave after their temporary protected status runs out. Blah, blah, blah. Popular. 70% approval, no problem, no mess, no fuss. Everyone gives them credit. That's not what they want. They want mass deportation. They, they want. They see that 30% of kids in school these days are sons of immigrants and daughters of immigrants, and it could be 40% of their. By the time they have kids, it'll be 50% in 20 years. That's not the country they want. So I do think, I think I made a mistake in not taking the mass deportation side of it seriously, getting these people out of the country. But I think it dovetails perfectly, as you've been saying, with picking fights with people who don't have that much support, sometimes fighting an incident and magnifying it. That is the classic authoritarian playbook. And I guess when you think about it for two seconds. Seconds, the two do dovetail together in the history of authoritarian regimes too. Right. If you pick a fight with a beleaguered minority group that you can, you can demonize and you use that fight to justify the authoritarian, the authoritarianism, which in turn you use to pick more on that minority group. Yeah, sure.
- [10:14]
Sam Stein
And this is, and this is how I tie in Terry Moran, because I think the other element here is that they somehow managed to be both the biggest bully on the block and played the role of victim. And in this case, it's, oh, my God, These, this guy is attacking an ICE agent. They. These, you know, obviously we're not for attacking ICE agents, but let's be real about it. It's like One dude on a motorcycle maybe, maybe some rocks being pelted. Obviously bad. But you know, they have been raiding every town and business and they don't expect any pushback. Secondly, on the ABC stuff, they were treating Terry Moran as, you know, what he said is some awful, horrific, unprecedented attack on poor old Stephen Miller. Stephen Miller is one of the most powerful individuals in the country. Terry Moran, I wouldn't have said what Terry Moran said. And obviously working for abc, different standards than working for the bulwark, I'm not going to deny that. But I mean to act like this is some egregious assault on poor Stephen Miller and then to use the weight of the presidency to go after ABC to make him to basically fire the guy. It is, it is a victimhood. Tim called, Tim Miller called it a bit beta, but I'm, I'm not going to go there but I'm just going to point out that Tim Miller called it. But you know, these guys act all tough until they get one iota of criticism and they act like the, you know, their limbs been cut off.
- [11:37]
Bill Kristol
Yeah. Though I'd say don't you think victim being victims is part of the overall MAGA message? And look again, authority. Think about authoritarians in Europe in the early 20th century. On the one hand they're victims, the regular people are victims of the all powerful conspiracies to make the obvious points, Jewish conspiracies or whatever conspiracies they, they want foreign conspiracies, immigrants coming over Orban in 2015, Hungary, they're taking everything from us. So on the one hand we're all victims. On the other hand that, that does justify though the, the crushing of those who are behaving badly towards the real Americans. And in Moran's case, what's, it's not surprising they tried to intimidate abc. I guess they had a bit of an excuse because he said something a little more frankly than a typical network correspondent does. But the fact that ABC has suspended him, was that what they done?
- [12:28]
Sam Stein
I mean, I think so, yeah.
- [12:30]
Bill Kristol
I'm a little, I mean what message does that send? I mean it sends that the intimidation worked. I mean once again, for all their, their ham headedness, their vulgarity, what's funny.
- [12:40]
Sam Stein
Here is that ABC probably should have suspended him if not for, put it this way, if I were abc, I would say yeah, that's a problematic thing for our network correspondent to say. It probably goes a little bit beyond where we're comfortable going editorially. But once the administration comes in and demands that he gets suspended. At that point, you kind of don't, you can't suspend the guy because then you're just bending over backwards to the administration. And yet to your point, they did it.
- [13:06]
Bill Kristol
Yeah. I mean, as you said, Steve Miller, J.D. vance, these are people who've said terrible things about terrible, I know maybe they should suspend the people. But I, for me, I said this to Adrian also to come back to J.D. vance and the Haitians. When he went after the Haitians, it was Craig. We all, people like, we all denounced it and, and it was shocking in a way. But he did it and got away with it, obviously got elected Vice President of the United States and it kind of faded away. And he was attacking 25,000 people. Zero assertion of law, breaking violence, taking jobs from anyone, being they were in a town that had been faltering, that seemed to be doing better. The mayor liked having them there, the governor liked having them there. The local representatives were fine with them being there. Pure stereotyping and pure attacking a minority group, in that case obviously a dark skinned minority group to rile up people against, against them. So, and in that respect, I, I, and I, the fact they got away with that, I kind of come back to that. I guess that the fact they got away with that just told them, you know what, this is our playbook now for in the administration. Here we are, what are we in month 5 already or just still month 4?
- [14:10]
Sam Stein
I can't almost. Yeah, no, no, it's hard to do the math.
- [14:13]
Bill Kristol
Four and a half.
- [14:14]
Sam Stein
Yeah, yeah, sure.
- [14:15]
Bill Kristol
And, and we're already calling out the military again. I sort of think about that. I'm talking to people on TextChange.
- [14:22]
Sam Stein
It is kind of crazy. Four and a half months in.
- [14:24]
Bill Kristol
And you know what, there's another 43 and a half months. So again, where are we six months from now? Where are we if there's a more serious riot? What if?
- [14:32]
Sam Stein
Well that's what I was talking about with Tim the other day. I was like, this all feels really crickety and off the rails and yet nothing externally bad has happened to this country under this second administration. I mean, there's obviously been self created problems that, you know, we can point to, but nothing has been like, you know, put on this administration's plate like Covid or anything like that. And once we get to that point.
- [14:54]
Bill Kristol
We'Re in trouble or a real riot, I mean, which unfortunately, obviously one hopes this doesn't happen. People get killed and stuff. Like the LA riots of 1992 and Bush did send in the guard and some active duty military and 55 people had been killed and the city was burning on my. So far as I can tell. And I don't mean to minimize it. People shouldn't throw rocks at ice ages. I mean, we do.
- [15:13]
Sam Stein
We're just going to clarify. No one is for throwing rocks at ice. But if we need just contextualize what's actually happening here.
- [15:20]
Bill Kristol
And look, it's not the rest of those people bring the full majesty of the law down on them. They're attacking law enforcement agents. They're pretty severe penalties for that. Zero problem. Yes, and. But again, that's not the spirit in which this is being addressed. This is being addressed as Steve. In a way, the Steve Miller quote that you found is really revealing. It's a crisis of civilization. It's not a law enforcement problem in some discrete spots that should be dealt with by better law enforcement in those areas.
- [15:45]
Sam Stein
Correct. They want to ramp this up. They want to dramatize it and then they want to play victims when they don't get their way.
- [15:51]
Bill Kristol
And they were ready for when someone pushes. That presidential memorandum wasn't writt overnight. They had thought through, you know, they had thought through the how to. How to sort of do this short of the Insurrection Act. They're such buffoons that you and I, you've discussed this in other contexts. I think just this weekend some other. They're such buffoons that one tends to minimize the danger of what they're doing.
- [16:10]
Sam Stein
Yeah, well, then that. Sorry, and I had mentioned Scott Bent early on, but this was my point, is that they do these harsh things to immigrants, to journalists, to state governors. And then when anything happens in. In terms of blowback or pushback or protest of those actions, they're like, oh, no, no, no. How could you?
- [16:29]
Bill Kristol
How could you do that?
- [16:30]
Sam Stein
And for Scott Vicente, they'd be like, you know what? That's tax evasion. If you do that, it probably would be, but you're threatening to withhold, you know, billions upon billions of federal dollars from the state. So I think you started this one, Scott. All right, Bill, thank you so much. Sorry to make you do another round of duty on Sunday, but that's interesting.
- [16:45]
Bill Kristol
Sam, thanks a lot.
- [16:46]
Sam Stein
Thanks for the new cycle demands. All right, take care, buddy. And thank you guys for watching. Subscribe to the Bulwark. Subscribe to our YouTube feed. We really appreciate it and we'll talk to you soon.