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- [00:00]
Tim Miller
Hey, guys, I just got off with Nicole Wallace and we got to talk about how Donald Trump is suffering political consequences as a result of his reckless and cruel policy actions across a number of fronts. Talked about the poll numbers showing that his treatment of Kilmar Abrego Garcia has less favorability than almost anything else that he is doing or has done, which went against a lot of conventional wisdom on whether or not the immigration issue was something Democrats could fight on. It was right in line with what I've been telling you, but also how we're seeing consequences, economic consequences for small business owners and how the tariffs are starting to hit a home with people that are inside his base of support. So it was a good chat with Nicole, with my buddy Andrew Wiseman. Check it out and we'll see you back here soon. And subscribe to our feed.
- [00:54]
Andrew Weissmann
Tim Miller, I have a infinite curiosity about what people thought was going to happen, because I think anyone that's watched him just in the political arena understood that a campaign launched in Waco with the words I am your retribution was about burning everything down. And so I have watched it is really the first Trump story that has shocked me in nine years. To watch sort of the titans. And tragically, in our country, the smartest people don't go work in Washington, Right. They don't take $110,000 a year ceiling salary jobs on Capitol Hill. Right. They go, they're either entrepreneurs or they go work in finance. And so to see the smartest people in the world shocked by the autocratic things that he did early, quickly and incompetently has been amazing. The piece of it, though, that I think the kinds of folks we work for would sort of intersect with it, is that American families are going to suffer, consumers are going to feel stressed either by not being able to find something they need or not being able to afford what they've always bought. And I worked for someone whose political fate was tied to tied to the economy and worked for someone running for president, you have to. And to see Trump create the thing that is the most depressive political weight on any politician anywhere in the world is unbelievable.
- [02:28]
Tim Miller
Yeah. So two thoughts on this. One on the kind of psychology. I really do think that the common wisdom among smart people, among people maybe even that were Trump supporters or maybe that were supporters but thought he might be good for business, that type of crowd, was that like there's no way he could do something this insane. Right. I think it was just hard for people to wrap their head around the fact that he might do exactly what you just said, which is just. I mean, cut off your nose despite your face, would be like, the understated way of saying it, that he would just crash the economy and crash his political prospects on the issue that was the most important to people, like, for no reason. Just because he likes the word tariff. Right? I mean, like, a savvy, smart person hears that, they're like, there's no way he's gonna do that. That's just his shtick. Right. Like, and he's benefited from this since that people a lot of times just thought it was shtick. He's an entertainer, you know, Take him seriously. Not literally all that. And I think that a lot of people really got hoodwinked on this one. Even though, you know, they could have just listened to him or listened to this show or listen to a bunch of people and knowing what they're going to sign up for as far as the impact on regular people, you know, this is really where the rubber is going to meet the road on this. And I was. I got a couple hours off yesterday. I went to Jazz Fest here in New Orleans. And I was out there, and a woman came up to me, and she owns a chachki shop here in New Orleans. You know, kind of stuff the tourists get.
- [03:51]
Andrew Weissmann
Yeah.
- [03:52]
Tim Miller
And. And she. She is just like, I am screwed. Right? Like, all. Like, so much of my stuff comes from China, and it's not the kind of stuff that we're ever going to make here, even if you wanted to. Right. It's like random buttons or Mardi Gras beads or, like, you know what I mean? Like, we're gonna make. That's. That is going to be the new job in America in 2025, is a Mardi Gras bead plant. You know, it's like, it's ridiculous, right? And so a lot of this stuff is coming from overseas. And she. She was like, thank God none of my stuff was on the water during this time, because if it was already on, had to pay it, and I would have to shut down, like, the store. It's like, this store's been open for 65 years, has been in the family, and they're just going to be a million of those stories, like, all across the country. And I think it's going to be really hard for them to use their typical bullying narrative BS to break through when people start really. When this stuff really starts to hit home.
- [04:46]
Andrew Weissmann
They also won't be able to do what they like to do, Tim. With everything from hurricane relief funds, where they want to find out, did they vote for me? I mean, whether, whether that business owner voted for him or not, he's not going to be able to go out and pluck out the small business owners in America who voted Trump and saved them. Because was he going to go make the beads himself? I mean, the whole supply chain piece would be surprising if it hadn't happened in America during the pandemic on his watch while he was president and largely had the consequence of making sure he wasn't returned to office. Something that even he understood. And so the supply chain piece, that retailers went to him and sat in the Oval Office, the head of Walmart, the head of Target and Home Depot, and we're still sort of full steam ahead. No toothpaste back in the tube. Just ridiculous platitudes about calls that don't appear to have ever happened. I don't know what that feels like. It feels like the train just sort of barreling down the track.
- [05:50]
Tim Miller
Yeah. They're sure there to be co op industries, right. So he did this the first time, right. Which was, you know, there were some tariffs the first time, not nearly at this extent. Particularly hurt farmers and they did this huge bailout of farmers. A fun fact for people is that that bailout of farmers cost more than the entire USAID program that we shut down in the name of whatever government efficiency. So, you know, I think that shows you how serious they are about cut. So there are, there could be some targeted bailouts, certain industries, but when you have an across the board tariff like this, right. When you're hitting all of these industries, all the big box stores, right. Like you're saying you can't do that. Like you can't just say, oh, I'm going to bail out red states or just going to bail out farmers or just going to bail out whatever coal miners. Like, that's just not, isn't going to work when it's the, when it's a systemic thing that's going to hit the whole supply chain.
- [06:42]
Andrew Weissmann
Today, another in a streak of intentionally intimidating acts aimed at key figures in institutions. This morning, agents of the FBI arrested a county judge in Milwaukee as she was in the parking lot on her way into work into court. She's now out on bond. According to the charging documents, the bureau alleges this, quote, Judge Hannah Dugan obstructed the detention of an undocumented immigrant who was wanted by federal authorities. Just last hour, lawyers for that justice released a statement that reads in part, quote, judge Dugan will defend herself vigorously and looks forward to being exonerated. Joining our coverage, former top prosecutor at the Department of Justice. MSNBC legal analyst Andrew Weissman's here. And Washington Post Justice Department reporter Perry Stein joins us. Tim Miller is with us as well. I want to go to the reporting I do just, just because this moment has now come. I have to start with you. The FBI arresting judges and the director of the FBI tweeting about it. That's how I first saw it.
- [07:45]
Perry Stein
So there has been a violation here that we know for sure, and it is not the judge. That's something that remains to be proved. The thing that we do know is that the FBI director has violated DOJ policy. I know. I can hear Tim looking at me going, that's so quaint.
- [08:06]
Andrew Weissmann
The norms.
- [08:06]
Tim Miller
The norms.
- [08:07]
Perry Stein
Right, exactly. But that is. You don't do it. Remember sitting here going, you know, James Comey really flouted the rules because he started talking about his own personal opinions of somebody who is not being charged. This is somebody who's being charged. And you are supposed to stay mum and instead completely denigrated her. And you don't do that. The same thing. By the way, Pam Bondi was on Fox News talking about how we're going to go after judges. That is what they're doing. I mean, this is a much more sinister view of the president saying we need to impeach them. That led to the chief justice having to step in here. That is really the way to see this. Even if you thought that there was a ground for doing this, the judgment call that you thought that this is the case to bring, it tells you everything about what the strategy is. And by the way, that's a huge if. I mean, I can't imagine this case is going to hold up for a whole variety of factual and legal reasons. But again, there is no adult in the room who would have said, are you kidding me? This person was apprehended steps from the courtroom, steps from the courthouse. It's going to be so hard to prove. Even if you could somehow show this was the judge's intent was to obstruct, why would you possibly do this? And the answer is, because we want to send a signal to the judiciary. And that's what you shouldn't be doing. I mean, that is fighting the last branch of government to oppose the executive branch.
- [09:49]
Andrew Weissmann
Yeah. I mean, Tim, I'm going to back into the latest reporting on this with sort of all of the. I mean, this comes at a moment when Trump's approval rating is in free fall and it is plunging around what he has done to his own pretty hot economy. He's tanked it with this obsession over tariffs. Whether it's causal or not, we'll never know. But he has also tanked. His two political sort of shields have always been people thinking he was actually a businessman, even though that was a character he played on a reality show, and people liking his energy or aggressiveness around immigration. He's tanked his. His approval on both fronts. I think this was a distraction from the first weakness on the economy and a case that they wanted to be arguing in the press instead of that of Kilmar Abrego Garcia. So I just want to lay down the foundation so we're not sort of covering the shiny object they wanted us to focus on today.
- [10:56]
Tim Miller
Yeah, and I think that's right. And I think that the PR operation around this is the real relevant element as far as the big picture is concerned. Obviously, we'll wait to see what the facts are on the specific case regarding this judge, but this was entirely motivated by pr. We can all sort of speculate on what their motives are. Was it a distraction? Maybe that's part of it. Was it trying to intimidate people and chill people that want to provide aid to undocumented migrants? I think certainly that has been part of their plan all along. Is it a shot across the bow of the judiciary? Probably. I think it could be all three of those things. But that is what is motivating. Not just the arrest, but the way that they handled it and having the FBI director tweet about it and PM Bonnie Glenn Fox, as Andrew mentioned. And so I think those are very, like, it's obviously very serious to think about that because. And I think the chilling effect, even if this case doesn't work, I think the chilling effect might work because if you're somebody that is in some way help helping an undocumented worker, you might think, do I? An undocumented immigrant? Excuse me? You might think, do I? Is this worth it? Like, do I want to put out the risk that the FBI is going to come after me? I think they want people to be thinking about that and having those conversations. The only good news in this, the only silver lining, is what you alluded to about how his numbers are tanking on immigration. And I think there's just been so much depressing out there about the state of the country and how we think about the country that they elected this guy again. But to see people already starting to reject this immigration regime, I think is extremely encouraging. And hopefully it will Be a continued reminder to Democrats and others that oppose this president to stiffen their spine to make these arguments. Because some people were worried for months. I was like, we gotta let him do whatever noxious stuff he wants to do on immigration because that's what the people voted for. Well, it turns out that there actually is a broad majority of Americans that are not for just nabbing people off the street and sending them to a gulag. I know maybe there was some doubt about that. I mean, some people in the Trump administration and thought that would be a winner, but it's turning out that that's a loser. And a new poll that came out right before we got on from Siena showed that the Kilmar Abrego Garcia case, he is less popular like that is. People are less favorable to his treatment of Kilmar Abrego Garcia than they are to the tariffs or to, or to his behavior with Russia and Ukraine. It is his lowest number. And so I think that is a really encouraging sign that people are going to need to continue to fight back against these efforts. Broadly, we run a little bit of a problem if we are going to say that the criteria to get your visa revoked. Is writing an op ed. Horrific. It's horrific.
- [13:41]
Perry Stein
I don't think that should be controversial.
- [13:43]
Tim Miller
No, that's not controversial at all. And this is the thing, you know, measured twice, cut once. This is the, like, this is kind of crazy that that could be possible. That's horrific.
- [13:53]
Andrew Weissmann
I never thought that I would see a day where I would be rooting for a university above Donald J. Trump and his ambassador administration, but I don't recognize this administration right now. I was going to use the expression cracks. Those are, those are, those are bigger than cracks. Those are giant fissures in the MAGA coalition around the issue of, in the case of Candace Owens, Tim, that was about the fight with Harvard and the other cases around the deportation. Folks who did things in terms of what we know publicly like right in op ed. And that's where we are. Some of those folks being detained seemingly indefinitely for exercising their First Amendment rights. Where, where do you think this pressure plays into the calculations about one, how to treat the people who've been detained and two, how aggressively to pursue others.
- [14:44]
Tim Miller
Well, I, I do think it's playing into the slowing down of what they were trying to do about immigration. Like, let's be honest, those three planes that went to El Salvador with Venezuelans, mostly Venezuelan asylees, like that wasn't planned. That wasn't going to be the end. Right. But the fights in the courts, the pushback in public opinion, the imbroglio over Abrego Garcia and the Justice Department having to admit that they made a mistake, having people like Joe Rogan and their own side speak out on this, all of that has basically put a stop to sending more people there. So now the fight continues. There are people that are probably wrongfully there. We're almost certain burden that should be brought out. But you know, that is an encouraging step and I think that you can see the administration responding to it. And secondly, I just want to. The Charlie Kirk thing is also similar. You notice that there haven't been a ton of other students being grabbed off of campuses over the last few weeks. Again, I don't we can speculate on what that is for, but you know, having somebody like Charlie Kirk who is essentially a paid cheerleader for the president, you know, looking at what they did with the Tufts student Austerk and saying, whoa, whoa, that's a little bit too far for me. I mean that is a sign that you're in deep trouble. It's public opinion if you have like a paid shill essentially, or not a paid shill, but a guy whose organization essentially just shills for Trump. I mean, I've been to his organization events. They have huge Trump signs. It's like, you know, it's like a cult gathering. And so if he's out there even expressing a little bit of doubt about it, I think that tells you where public opinion is heading.
- [16:21]
Andrew Weissmann
Trump 2.0 has kept judges busy all across our country. They've had to meet and confronted with Donald Trump's haphazard and extremist priorities with a rather humiliating lesson for him in the rule of law. With loss after loss after loss for Donald Trump in court, at least for now and just yesterday, three times over, Donald Trump lost on his federal funding freeze against so called sanctuary cities and counties which a federal judge in California said violates the fifth Amendment. Trump lost on his attempt to mount a takeover of elections. A federal judge in Washington blocked portions of that executive order. Trump lost on his anti DEI takeover and punishment of K through 12 schools and classrooms with three federal judges issuing three separate rulings in that area. Also this week, Trump lost on his attempt to shut down the 83 year old voice of America, something we haven't talked about in days and weeks around here. Two federal judges further paused his use in their districts of the Alien Enemies act From the year 1798 to deport people without affording them due process. And we learned that Trump's turning to the Supreme Court after several lower courts blocked his transgender service members in the military. We're back with Andrew and Tim. Tim, to your point about the Times Sienna poll, 66% of all Americans, which includes a whole lot of people who ostensibly voted for him, describe the second Trump term as chaotic. They do not like what they see.
- [17:58]
Tim Miller
No, they don't. And, you know, unfortunately, this is sad and we can all go relive 2024, but like, there was just a false memory about the first Trump administration, I think had a lot to do with COVID and all the disruption that happened after Covid. And unfortunately, I think that there are a lot of folks who are looking at this, be they the Chachki store owner or at the Bulwark. We just had some new focus group of Latino voters, working class Latino voters who are, you know, did not, you know, who just thought he was going to be deporting the criminals. Like, you know, the list kind of goes on and on. So we're seeing this. You know, the other thing that just jumps out at me about his political weakness, like looking at all those headlines, is this might seem quaint, but the Republicans also won Congress. They could resolve a lot of those legal issues if they would just pass this stuff through Congress, but they don't have the political will or capital to do so. And I think that's also kind of a noteworthy context around all this.