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- [00:00]
Sam Stein
All right. Hey, guys. Me, Samstein, managing editor at the Bullock. I'm here with my partner, Will Sommer, who is author of. What is it? False Flag. Yeah, False Flag. Yeah, of course. I knew that.
- [00:10]
Will Sommer
It's.
- [00:11]
Sam Stein
It is the newsletter to follow in these tumultuous times. He's been writing relentlessly about Epstein in addition to all the other conspiracies. And so it's been a big week for Will. How you holding up?
- [00:20]
Will Sommer
Good. I mean, this. This Wall Street Journal article obviously was quite a shock, and that's kind of stirred the waters in terms of the maga movement.
- [00:27]
Sam Stein
What Wall Street Journal. We're gonna talk about the Wall Street Journal article, but first subscribe to the feed. Okay, so the. Let me just back up for a second. I was. And I think I said this to Tim last night. I was driving my kid home from a swim meet when the Journal piece broke. And I called you immediately because I needed to, like, just take your temperature about what was going on with the article. And. And I want to know, like, as someone who has, like, followed this stuff closer than anyone and who sort of understands the insides of the story, when you initially saw the piece, because everyone had been hearing rumblings about the piece, but when you initially saw the piece and you read the piece, what was your reaction?
- [01:08]
Will Sommer
I mean, it's pretty shocking, I would say, like, on, you know, when you kind of step back and, like, get away from, like, what's going to be in the article, whatever. And then the idea that Trump is writing kind of like a. What seems like a coded letter to a notorious pedophile about, like, maybe we have secrets together, you know, and obviously there's this drawing of this nude woman. I mean, it doesn't look good. Right?
- [01:31]
Sam Stein
We haven't seen the letter, so we don't really know. And he's, of course, saying it's all fake, but whatever. But yes, at face value, it's. I think that's sort of getting lost in a weird way. It's like, oh, yeah, he's writing Jeffrey Epstein and being like, enigmas never age. And you're just like, what the hell is going on here?
- [01:48]
Will Sommer
This is.
- [01:48]
Sam Stein
This is odd. Now that you've had, like, a couple hours to assess and probably survey the landscape, like, what has been the reaction from people in that? Not the. I'm not talking about, like, the Charlie Kirks necessarily, although I want to get to the reactions. I'm talking about, like, the people who believe in the Epstein mythos and the Epstein conspiracies. What is the reaction that they've had.
- [02:10]
Will Sommer
Yeah, I mean, I think the reaction we're seeing actually is, you know, I think maybe disappointingly for people who are not Trump supporters, I, I think there is kind of like a rallying, a circling of the wagons going on. Yeah, I mean, this, this fits in into much more of like a trope we're used to for Trump, which is like damaging information comes out. And maybe he's kind of pre salted the ground to say, you know, there's something, you know, there are a lot of fake documents out there. And so now people are, you know, they can attack the media, they can say, well, this Wall Street Journal reporter, you can't trust him.
- [02:42]
Sam Stein
Right. But is that, is that true? I mean, I know that's true of like, you know, Megyn Kelly and Charlie Kirk and Benny Johnson, all those people. But like, what about like the real people who like, live and breathe this conspiracy? Are they, how do they rationalize? Or maybe you haven't seen it, but, like, how would they sort of compartmentalize this letter into the grand sort of cabal conspiracy that they've concocted?
- [03:04]
Will Sommer
Well, I think, yeah, as you said, number one, we are pretty early in it. And so we haven't like quite, you know, we're less than 24 hours out. But I do think we're starting to see they are saying like, essentially, oh, this is almost like proof the cabal is real because they're planting fake documents to get Trump. So I think, I think what we were dealing with for the past week and a half was it was sort of like, dad won't let us have something. Dad won't let us have fun. Right. He won't let us stay up late. Why won't he just let us see these files? He just doesn't get how important they are to us. And then suddenly it got to this point where I was like, wait, if we keep pushing here, we might find out Dad's a pedophile. Right? So we got to, we might have to back off. And so I think that's what we're seeing with, with a lot of these people is like, they didn't want to, like, undermine the entire Trump project. You know, they just wanted to have their fund and, you know, presumably get their, the Democrats they imagine were on this list. But now it's like, whoa, we got to be a little careful here.
- [03:56]
Sam Stein
Well, I want to talk the first phase of that, which is, you know, the sort of disappointment that dad is not letting them in on the secret. There was A clip that's been kind of making the rounds that at least was in my feed about a caller into Glenn Beck's program who honestly sounded like he was on the edge of just having a complete meltdown, like crying, near tears. I want to play you that clip, not to, like, make fun of the guy, because I actually think there's something larger to it, but let's play the clip, and then I'm going to ask you a question on the other end.
- [04:27]
C
I feel really betrayed, and I feel really, really angry. We have a president who tells us to move on from Epstein because it doesn't matter. Are you guys still talking about this? Seriously? And yet he still talks about the, and yet he still talks about the 2020 election fraud. He talks about the Hunter Biden laptop. He talks about all this stuff from five, six years ago. And he tells us to move on from the Epstein trial or the Epstein case. I, people like me will not stop talking about this. I feel so betrayed and so angry. This is not what I voted for.
- [05:00]
Sam Stein
There's this guy, Travis from South Dakota, and he's like, you know, pretty beaten down by this. Seems honestly emotional about it. And I don't know, I mean, this obviously predates the Wall Street Journal letter, but is that your sense, Is, is that like an anomaly, or is that the sense that you get that these people just feel totally betrayed?
- [05:22]
Will Sommer
I think, I mean, it's going to be a mix, like, with anything. I mean, I, I, I think sort of at the, the what, the immediate reactions we're seeing are very rationalizing and sort of saying, trying to excuse it or saying, oh, that, that dastardly deep state has done it again. On the other hand, you know, I think we can maybe overthink it and say, you know, I saw some people saying, you know, this is good news for Trump or whatever. It's not good news.
- [05:44]
Sam Stein
Good news being the Journal story.
- [05:46]
Will Sommer
Yes. To have, because it, because it kind of frames it in a much more kind of classic Trump denial framework. But it's just like, I think we know in our guts it's not good news to have, like, a little jokey note to a pedophile released that you did. And so I think, overall, I do think it's going to start sinking in with some people.
- [06:06]
Sam Stein
Well, yeah, and I guess that's the thing. It's like, I, I can, if you, if you squint and you honestly, you can make the case, it's good news. I'm not like, saying it's irrational to, to make the case that he, it helps him to have a, an a foil here. He loves having foils and the press is a foil. And he can, you know, can charge and say it's fake news and it's all fabricated. And they can make up like, oh, I've never seen my, you know, Don Juniors on Twitter today saying, I've never in my 47 years seen my dad doodle. It's like, man, there's like he was selling doodles.
- [06:36]
Will Sommer
Right.
- [06:36]
Sam Stein
Like you. So you could just make up and, and, and create a, an enemy. But to your point, one, like, if you step back, you're like, why is he writing in Jeffrey Epstein's birthday book? That's weird. But two, it just, the more, I guess, the more it is in the cultural zeitgeist, the worse it is. And like having Shane Gillis talk about it at the esp, Right. Like there is some sort of risk that it breaks through into a wider cultural moment that is harder for him to control.
- [07:06]
Will Sommer
I think that's right. There's this, you know, clearly the administration is seeing that they have to provide a little more give here. So now they're saying, well, we'll release the grand jury transcripts, which, you know, apparently don't.
- [07:17]
Sam Stein
Well, I want to get to that in a second, but go ahead.
- [07:19]
Will Sommer
Yeah. I mean, so there's this sense of. Or maybe Trump says, well, maybe there could be a special FBI investigation, which sort of sounds like a special counsel, but isn't it still be presumably controlled by Kash Patel? So, you know, we're seeing some people like Benny Johnson is acting like this was all, oh, of course, this was a stroke of genius. Now we're finally getting the documents we demanded. So you can see that I, I think they're trying to bring this to some kind of resolution.
- [07:45]
Sam Stein
Yeah, but that's. Again, it's like they're telling their, their listeners and their audience to believe things that aren't true. Again, it's just like my dad never doodles. It's just not true. Right. The grand jury testimony will like, be what we need. We. It's not true. Right. It's not going to be remotely the totality of the evidence in the Epstein trial. So we're at this place again and again and again about whether or not these people, the audience members, the MAGA types, are willingly going to be duped. And they have, or at least they've come up with a different conspiracy to overstate or to overwhelm their current conspiracy. But I don't know. You would know this Better than me. Like, are they willing to get duped on this stuff?
- [08:27]
Will Sommer
I don't know. This is a tough one. I mean, I, I think, I know it's really tough. I think this, I mean, I think this sort of among versus any other sort of kind of Trump thing they've been asked to swallow, I think is going to kind of sit there and kind of bug them. You know, this idea that, you know, Trump just saying move on and then saying suddenly like, oh my gosh, like you can't trust these files that are about to come out. I mean, he looks really guilty and you know, as we saw there was something in the, the files.
- [08:55]
Sam Stein
I don't know and maybe I'm making a, a really bad analogy and it's not the same obviously, but like there is an incredible amount of pressure to have sort of like a partisan rallying around the flag moment here. I mean, when I thinking to like Bill Clinton, Paula Jones, like stuff like that where it's like the evidence was fairly bad. Like there was, you know, Paula Jones had those tapes she played, I believe and you know, there was like question about whether they were doctored. And you know, people rallied around behind Bill Clinton even though I think in their heart of hearts they knew what he had done was scummy as hell. And you know, again, Trump acts as Hollywood. It's like people rallied around the guy and there was literal tapes and he wasn't even, you know, disputing them at first. So I mean, I do think there's an immense amount of pressure to just rally behind the guy. I don't know if this is going to be totally different.
- [09:45]
Will Sommer
You know, the other aspect here that I think is unexplored is what role Fox News is going to play here. Right. Because it's owned by the same company, Rupert Murdoch News Corp. And we saw last night Laura Ingraham was winding up to say, okay, next we got an update on the Epstein thing from the Wall Street Journal and then she never got to that segment. So they can't, Fox presumably can't do the thing every other conservative media outlet is going to do, which is, you know, slime News Corp. And all these runaway journalists at the Wall Street Journal, particularly if there's going to be a lawsuit. So they're presumably going to be silent on it. Which at least I think in terms of Trump's narrative is going to be bad for him because then Trump, you know, they can' sort of is it.
- [10:25]
Sam Stein
Bad for him that they're just silent on it? I mean, isn't that what he wants? He just wants it to go away.
- [10:29]
Will Sommer
Well, that's true as well. And maybe, maybe as a result of this, they'll just stop talking about Epstein entirely, because you can't really talk about Epstein without talking about this. This aspect of it.
- [10:38]
Sam Stein
And I guess the other question is, will another outlet, presumably one of the other print outlets that's apparently was chasing the story, will they actually publish the letter?
- [10:49]
Will Sommer
We'll have to see. I mean, I'd like to see it, you know. Of course.
- [10:54]
Sam Stein
Of course you would like to see it. I mean, I want to see it, too.
- [11:00]
Will Sommer
I mean, it is interesting, you know, it obviously is very reminiscent of Signal Gate, where you have this, you know, put it out there. We can't believe this story until we see the documents and then we'll see if we get them. You know, it is funny with the exchange where it's like, you know, what matters most in life or whatever. And, you know, people are saying Jack Mazobik saying, like, this isn't how Trump talks. And it's like, well, it's not a transcript, you know, it's a sort of an imagined script. He looks like Trump doesn't talk like this.
- [11:31]
Sam Stein
Yeah, I find that very funny, too, because, like, it sort of is how Trump talks. Like, have you not heard him, like, concoct a complete fabricated sir story with, like, you know, a member of the military, where it's like, sir, do this, and then he has his own voice and they go back and forth. And he loves making up, like, conversations and then putting them out there in the public for consumption. So I don't know if that's not how Trump talks. And we certainly know he's a doodler.
- [11:55]
Will Sommer
The other thing I was gonna say is that. So we're starting to get, like, kind of the takes and the rationales, you know, filtering out this morning. And Benny Johnson, what's your favorite take? Well, Benny Johnson had this video this morning where he was like, if you read this, we're to understand that Donald Trump is a Renaissance mincing. I mean, he doesn't quite say queen, but like, he's like a mincing, effete Renaissance painter on the banks of the Seine river in Paris. And. And he. And he's so theatrical.
- [12:27]
Sam Stein
Think about.
- [12:27]
Will Sommer
And it's like, oh, yeah, Trump famously is, like, very catty. He's very, like, interested in things like, like the Vanity Fair Oscars party and like, kind of these, like, New York. Yeah, exactly. So the idea that, like, Donald Trump does isn't interested in you know, what he sees as kind of like the finer things in life is just crazy.
- [12:45]
Sam Stein
He's the most cosmopolitan president we've ever had. He's a huge Andrew Lloyd Webber fan. What are we talking about? Well, you know. All right, what's like your. What do you predict is the next shoe to drop here if you. If you had to make prediction.
- [12:57]
Will Sommer
Yeah. So, I mean, obviously, as you said, you know, one of these other newspapers could release something. You know, the. We'll have to see what's in the. The grand jury transcripts, if they ever come out.
- [13:07]
Sam Stein
Those are not coming out, man.
- [13:09]
Will Sommer
You don't even think those will come out.
- [13:11]
Sam Stein
Well, there's going to be a huge legal fight over it. Isn't Maxwell still actually, like, has she gone to trial or is there. Is she currently in trial for. I forget what it is.
- [13:19]
Will Sommer
She is. She's appealing. And so this. Actually, this is. This is my prediction.
- [13:22]
Sam Stein
So can they even put these. Can they put these transcripts so if she's doing an appeal.
- [13:26]
Will Sommer
Well, no, no. This is why the Justice Department is just like, I don't know, you know, in the Biden administration was like, we can't just be, like, putting this stuff out there. Here's my prediction. This is a little longer term. There will be a growth of a Maga. Pardon Ghislaine movement. This is. There's already. My argument is this. They're going to say, Ghislaine is going to exonerate Trump. You know, she's already like, I'm willing to. You know, I'm willing to testify to Congress. And they're going to say, you know, this is a woman, Angela Stanton King, who received a Trump pardon herself, is very connected in the pardon world. She said, well, you know, if. If. If Essie didn't do anything, why is Ghislaine in prison? You know, I think we're gonna start seeing this, and she's gonna be seen as like, who thinks Epstein didn't do anything? Well, now that Trump said it was all a hoax, you know, that idea that's.
- [14:16]
Sam Stein
So he says it's a hoax. So now they think Epstein's actually innocent. This is madness, dude. How do you. How do you walk around in this universe? What are we talking about? But I can see a part in being. I pardon being sort of floated out there where it's like, give her a pardon so she could just, you know, spill the dirt on everybody and not fear for her life. Right. Like, that could be something. Damn. All right, Will Summer, thank you so much, man. Appreciate it.
- [14:44]
Will Sommer
Absolutely.
- [14:45]
Sam Stein
You've been doing yeoman's work. But at the same time, as I said before, this is your super bowl, and, like, you're. You gotta, you know, gotta get up for the big game. Everyone should subscribe to his newsletter, false Flag, which is essential. We'll talk to you soon.