Bulwark Takes: "Trump's Exploitation of the Charlie Kirk Assassination"

Podcast: Bulwark Takes
Host: Bill Kristol
Guest: Jay Nordlinger
Date: September 15, 2025

Overview

In this episode, Bill Kristol is joined by political journalist and commentator Jay Nordlinger to discuss the national and political ramifications following the assassination of conservative activist Charlie Kirk—and notably, Donald Trump’s reaction and exploitation of the tragedy. The conversation weaves through themes of leadership, the contingency of history, the dangers of political demagoguery, the importance of human rights advocacy, and the fragility of democracy in the face of rising authoritarianism and violent rhetoric. Both speakers reflect on their histories with dissidents, the influence of individual actions on the course of nations, and the need for integrity and bravery in political discourse.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Human Rights and the Legacy of Dissidents

Timestamps: 00:56–04:52

• Nordlinger’s Motivation: Jay reflects on his deep, lifelong interest in human rights, shaped by encounters with Cold War dissidents and notable figures like Solzhenitsyn, Sakharov, and Armando Valladares.
• Importance of the Individual: He underscores the value of focusing on individual cases rather than abstract concepts—citing Yelena Bonner's insight that people relate more deeply to personal stories of oppression.
• Contemporary Parallels: The courage of figures like Alexei Navalny and Vladimir Kara-Murza is highlighted as modern examples of dissidence.
• Presidential Impact: Kristol and Nordlinger discuss how past presidents, of both parties, generally saw themselves aligned with democratic dissidents—differentiating this legacy from Trump’s approach.

• "It’s up to the United States to be concerned about microscopic dots, individuals." — Jay Nordlinger (05:17)

2. Leadership Matters: Tone, Contingency, and the Power of Example

Timestamps: 06:16–10:19

• Reassessment of Leadership’s Impact: Nordlinger admits he used to undervalue the influence of presidents but now recognizes their profound ability to shape national mood and historical direction.
• Historical Contingency: Choices by leaders—like Yeltsin’s elevation of Putin over Nemtsov—have changed the world’s trajectory.

• “Gee, Jay Nordlinger discovers in his 40s or 50s that leaders matter. But they matter more than I knew and more than I would like.” — Jay Nordlinger (06:52)

• Contemporary Example: Trump’s decisions after the 2020 election and refusal to concede are seen as transformative and destabilizing.

3. MAGA, Putinism, and the Global Assault on Liberal Democracy

Timestamps: 11:41–14:07

• Intellectual Crosscurrents: Kristol discusses Alexander Dugin’s (Putin’s ideologue) strange kinship with MAGA, presenting both as aligned in a global movement against liberal democracy.
• Reciprocal Admiration: Nordlinger points to explicit praise of Putin by former Trump officials, marking an unsettling honesty about authoritarian sympathies.
• Authoritarian Playbooks: They note that Trump's reaction to the Kirk murder mirrors exploitative tactics of strongmen exploiting tragedies to demonize opponents.

4. The Kirk Assassination and Trump’s Exploitation

Timestamps: 14:07–19:05

• Denouncing Violence and the Danger of Demagoguery: Both hosts call for blanket condemnation of political violence from all sides, with Nordlinger expressing dismay at how one act by a lone gunman can destabilize societies.
• Historical Echoes: Kristol draws parallels to figures like Oswald, Booth, and the Black Hand in WWI, noting how exploitation—not just tragedy—poses systemic dangers.
• Trump’s Unprecedented Rhetoric: Trump’s rush to blame political opponents for Kirk’s murder marks a departure from American norms, promoting fear and division rather than unity or condemnation of violence alone.

• “The degree to which Trump and MAGA are all on board … exploiting this, the idea that Governor Cox seems like a lone figure among Republicans is what’s so striking.” — Bill Kristol (18:41)

5. The Rising Atmosphere of Fear and Intolerance

Timestamps: 19:05–23:12

• Threats and Intimidation: They note increasing threats against public officials and the chilling effect on democratic participation (e.g., officials like Mitt Romney hiring security, young Congressmen quitting early).
• Conservative Demagoguery: The scapegoating of vulnerable minorities—like the transgender community—by Trump and his allies in the wake of violence is highlighted as particularly dangerous.
• The Pelosi Attack Parallel: Both express dismay at the willingness of public figures, including Trump, to mock or minimize the violence against Paul Pelosi.

6. College Campuses, Pluralism, and the Next Generation

Timestamps: 23:12–26:37

• Encouragement from Youth: Despite national division, Nordlinger finds hope in open-minded students seeking to weigh differing ideas, even at politically polarized institutions.
• Pluralism as an Ideal: He reflects on America’s unique ability to foster institutions across the ideological spectrum, likening the coexistence of Cedarville University and Antioch College as a metaphor for American pluralism.

• “I was just thinking about it … such a beautiful illustration of American pluralism. … I just love that they can coexist in this beautiful pluralistic society of ours.” — Jay Nordlinger (24:00)

7. The Fragility of Democracy and Lessons from History

Timestamps: 26:37–33:58

• Reagan’s Warning: Nordlinger, initially skeptical of Reagan’s oft-repeated line about freedom being a generation from extinction, now sees its resonance—citing Venezuela’s swift democratic collapse as a cautionary tale.
• Paper vs. Real Guardrails: They observe that constitutions and institutions provide only so much protection; the true safeguards are leaders and citizens with integrity.

8. Bandwagon Politics, Dissent, and the Pressure to Conform

Timestamps: 25:43–36:23

• Bandwagon vs. Standing Athwart: Kristol reflects on how movements (including the Trump movement) benefit from “joining the winning side,” but celebrates the tradition of principled dissent—recalling Buckley’s “standing athwart history” and Whitaker Chambers’ choosing the “losing side.”
• Normalization of Trumpism: Nordlinger points out that for a new generation, Trumpism is simply the norm, with dissent in today’s GOP considered subversive or dangerous.

• “Trumpism is so normal, it has ceased to be a new normal. It… might even be called the spirit of our times.” — Jay Nordlinger (30:06)

9. The Value of Intellectual Diversity and Cross-Ideological Friendship

Timestamps: 33:58–38:35

• Cultural Openness: Both men remember mentors and experiences benefiting from ideological diversity and critique the idea of “safe spaces” solely for conservatives, promoting instead the value of constructive challenge and free expression.
• The Importance of Civil Libertarians: They praise figures like Ira Glasser and organizations like FIRE for upholding principles of liberty regardless of politics.

10. Reflections on American Exceptionalism and the Path Ahead

Timestamps: 39:18–43:10

• Skepticism Toward Exceptionalism: Both question the current Republican rhetoric around American Exceptionalism, suggesting it has become more boastful than self-critical or aspirational.
• Guardrails and Human Agency: The Founders understood that laws and constitutions are only as strong as the people upholding them.

• “The real guardrails are flesh and blood. … Mike Pence acted as a guardrail on January 6th for example. Paper protections will get you only so far.” — Jay Nordlinger (41:37)

• Responsibility Falls on Individuals: Kristol closes by reinforcing the importance of principled individuals at all levels, from leaders to ordinary citizens.

Memorable Quotes

| Timestamp | Quote | Speaker | |-----------|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|--------------| | 05:17 | “It’s up to the United States to be concerned about microscopic dots, individuals.” | Nordlinger | | 06:52 | “…leaders matter more than I knew and more than I would like.” | Nordlinger | | 18:41 | “The degree to which Trump and MAGA are all on board … exploiting this … is what’s so striking.” | Kristol | | 24:00 | “…such a beautiful illustration of American pluralism. … I just love that they can coexist …” | Nordlinger | | 30:06 | “Trumpism is so normal, it has ceased to be a new normal. It… might even be called the spirit of our times.” | Nordlinger | | 41:37 | “The real guardrails are flesh and blood. … Paper protections will get you only so far.” | Nordlinger |

Notable Moments with Timestamps

• [01:20–02:12] Jay Nordlinger traces his lifelong interest in human rights to his admiration for brave Cold War dissidents.
• [08:52–09:57] Discussion of the 2020 election’s aftermath—the power of individual choices to destabilize or preserve democracy.
• [13:20–14:07] Examination of the mutual esteem between MAGA and Russian authoritarian thinkers, naming names of Trump officials expressing admiration for Putin.
• [14:07–19:05] Candid appraisals of the exploitation of violence—drawing historical and contemporary parallels, particularly Trump’s demonization of opponents after Kirk's murder.
• [26:37–26:53] Venezuela’s precipitous democratic collapse, cited as proof that Reagan's warning about freedom's fragility rings true.
• [41:37–42:46] Reflection on how societal safeguards depend more on the courage and principles of individuals than on institutions or laws alone.

Conclusion

Bill Kristol and Jay Nordlinger offer a rich, honest, and historically grounded conversation about the meaning of the Charlie Kirk assassination, Trump’s exploitation of division, and the enduring threats to liberal democracy. They urge listeners to uphold pluralism, condemn all political violence, and take personally the responsibility—at every level—to preserve democratic values in the face of modern demagoguery and fear. The episode serves as both a warning and a call to principled action.