← Bulwark Takes
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- [00:00]
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- [01:30]
Tim Miller
Hey, everybody, it's Tim Miller from the Bulwark. Delighted to be here with an old friend, Ben Terrace, New York magazine's Washington correspondent. He wrote a buzzy little article today titled. You're gonna make me say this?
- [01:43]
Ben Terris
Yeah, you gotta say it.
- [01:45]
Tim Miller
The superhuman president. And it was a dive into what we know about his health, what he wants to tell us about his health, and what other random strangers that he calls on his phone say about his health. And I'm excited to talk about it with you. What's going on, man?
- [02:02]
Ben Terris
How you doing? Thanks for having me on.
- [02:04]
Tim Miller
I'm happy to talk about something like this. A little silly as a little break from our Minneapolis coverage that's gonna drive me to a stroke. And not that the President's health isn't a serious matter, but there's some silliness associated with the story, I think, or a little bit of, you know, you may be a twinkle in your eye a couple of times when writing about how the administration's talking about his health.
- [02:29]
Ben Terris
Yeah, that's right. I mean, it's kind of vp kind of death of Stalin. You know, there's. There's a little bit of a. Of zaniness going on here.
- [02:36]
Tim Miller
So tell us, how did you end up. You end up interviewing him and two doctors in the Oval Office about his hand bruises? I've been monitoring his hand bruises very closely, as you mentioned in the story, which I appreciate. Like, how did that come to pass?
- [02:49]
Ben Terris
Yeah, honestly, I did not know the doctors were going to be in the Oval Office when I arrived. It was a surprise to me, a pleasant surprise, because, you know, as a feature writer, you're always looking for scene and, you know, surprises and unsuspecting things. And I was not suspecting this at all. But basically, it came to be because I was working on this story about Trump's health for a month or two at that point, and there'd been a lot of interest in Trump's health. The. The New York Times had published a story. That story had sent Trump into a tizzy. He was very angry about their coverage of him. They found that he. His public schedule was not as robust as it had been at the same time a year before. And he was really mad about it. And I think because he was so mad at the New York Times, he really wanted to talk to anyone else who was already working on a story about his health. And so he called me to the Oval Office and gave me 45 minutes of his time, and the doctors were there, and we just kind of went into it.
- [03:46]
Tim Miller
The premise of the story was you trying to figure out what's really happening with his health, or you trying to figure out what they're saying is happening about his health.
- [03:54]
Ben Terris
Yeah, I mean, it's a little of both. Right. I mean, on the outside, it would be great if I could figure out what was going on with his health. You know, I wrote a story. My first story for New York Magazine was last year, was about John Fetterman and his health. And I feel like there were some kind of big blockbuster scoops in there about what was actually going on with his medical records and his health. To get that about the President of the United States is harder even than a senator, which is already pretty hard. And so, yeah, it would have been great if I could get, you know, someone to leak me, you know, his actual records from. From Walter Reed. But ultimately, the story is. Is in part about his health, but also about kind of the health of the government.
- [04:32]
Tim Miller
Right.
- [04:33]
Ben Terris
I mean, he's kind of infected the government in a way. They have a. Almost like a. I don't know, like a brain worm that he's put in them. And all these. All these people that I talked to, it was like, I don't know, they had been snatched by body snatchers and were just parroting what the President wanted them to say. These are, you know, serious people in the government or supposedly serious people in that are talking about him like he's the superhuman President. I mean, the headline is kind of a tongue in cheek joke. It was actually suggested by Stephen Miller, who told me if I was going to be serious, the headline has to be the superhuman President, that he has powers that no mere mortals have. And so that became the headline because that's the way that people talk about him.
- [05:16]
Tim Miller
I thought about your Fetterman story just before he came on, because Fetterman put out a statement finally, after, like, 70 hours after Alex Brady was killed, which includes the sentence, I reject the calls to defund or abolish ice. I strongly disagree with many strategies and practices ICE deployed. It's not the height of coherence coming out of the Senator's office these days.
- [05:40]
Ben Terris
He ain't what he used to be.
- [05:42]
Tim Miller
Okay, so let's go through the various elements of the Trump health questions. The thing that I guess you got the most information on was the mri. He went to Walter Reed for an mri. They didn't tell us what it was or why. And the doctors did share a little bit with you on that?
- [05:58]
Ben Terris
Yeah, when I brought it up, Trump was very happy that I brought it up. I mean, I could see his eyes light up. And he said, thank you for asking about the mri. And then he said it was the stupidest fucking thing I've ever done in my life. I don't know. Are you allowed to swear on this podcast?
- [06:11]
Tim Miller
Oh, yeah, we swear.
- [06:12]
Ben Terris
Well, he said it was the stupidest fucking thing he'd ever done in his life. And I blamed them. And he pointed at the doctors and. And said, can you explain, you know, why I had to do this? And then he turns to Carolyn Levitt and says, it was the stupidest thing I've ever done. He was. He was very upset about having taken this. This test, which turns out not to have been an mri, but something very close to an mri. And what the doctors claimed is he was just at Walter Reed anyway, and because he's the President of the United States, they wanted to be extra careful with his health. And so they just said, oh, the Machine is here. Let's just do it. And the real headline, they said the real story should be that it was amazing. It was, it was perfect results, they said. And so they just did this abdomen. You know, they did an image of his abdomen and they found that everything was great.
- [06:58]
Tim Miller
Yeah, I don't want to think about that abdomen. That doesn't really. I mean, I've been to a fair amount of doctors in my day. You know, we're getting to middle age. That isn't usually how things work. I don't think, like, oh, I happen to have this machine here. Why don't we just do it while it's here? That's a little curious.
- [07:13]
Ben Terris
It's not usually how things work. I will say that presidents get different kinds of health care than anyone else. He is nearly 80 years old. He does have, you know, some pre existing conditions. You could say the he's got a, you know, a circulatory issue that has made his ankle swell. And, you know, it's possible that because of that they were like, let's just be extra careful and make sure he's not about to have a heart attack. And they claim that he's not.
- [07:38]
Tim Miller
All right, let's go to the hands. So I think we can definitively say now that the first story about the bruises that they told, which is just that he is an aggressive hand shaker, I think we can rule that out. Now that the same bruise has shown up on the left hand, do you think that's safe?
- [07:54]
Ben Terris
Yeah, I mean, it's not just handshaking. Right. So what they say is that he takes way too much aspirin, basically. Like, he takes so much aspirin that when he told the head of a pharmaceutical company that makes aspirin how much aspirin he was taking, they said, oh, no, no, don't do that. Like, do your doctors. And he's like, yeah, they know, but, you know, it works for me. And so he says because he takes so much aspirin, he bruises very easily, which is true. If you take that much aspirin, you probably do bruise easily. And that handshaking is a number one. Cause his right hand is the one that's usually bruised and he's got these bandages on the back all the time. And he says it's from women's fingernails and from women's wedding rings sometimes or their engagement rings. He said that one particularly nasty slice on the back of his hand was from when Pam Bondi botched a high five with him and cut him with a Ring. He said he healed perfectly, though. He showed me the hand. He's like, I. I have beautiful hands, and they heal perfectly. And so, no, it's not just handshaking. It can't be, because the other day in Davos, he had an equally disgusting bruise on his left hand. And unless he started shaking hands with his left hand, it can't just be bruising. He said it was from, like, slamming into a table or, you know, the side of a desk or something. You know, the doctor said that that's what it's from. You know, part of the story is about who can you believe at this point? Right, right. These are doctors at the highest level. One of them is a physician's assistant with a PhD, but still a doctor at. At Walter Reed. And they're the ones who care for the president. And the people who are around the president the most are the ones telling the stories about how healthy he is. And in a normal world, you should be able to just believe them. We're not really living in a normal world. So I think the story is really like, look at what they're saying, and then look at what you see with your own eyes. And do these things match up? Yeah.
- [09:40]
Tim Miller
One of the other things that caught my eye about the doctors is that one of them told you that Trump is in better health than Obama.
- [09:48]
Ben Terris
Yeah, yeah. He was prompted by Carol. First of all, the doctors were holding pieces of paper when I arrived that said talking points on the top of it, and they were, like pages long, filled with text, handwritten notes in the margins. At the end of my. My time there, Caroline Levitt prompted one of them and said, hey, you worked for the Obamas, didn't you? And he said, yeah. And so I asked him, oh, who's healthier, you know, Barack Obama or President Trump? And without even hesitating, he says, president Trump. I mean, Barack Obama was a healthy guy. He still is a healthy guy. Also, this president, you know, a million years ago now, and was younger than Trump. He's still younger than Trump, Yeah. I mean, sports, it's a little hard to believe.
- [10:31]
Tim Miller
Does Trump get his heart rate up ever? I mean, it's hard to.
- [10:34]
Ben Terris
I mean, he barely walks, you know, when he had this circulatory issue, one of the things that doctors recommended for the swelling was, you know, walk around more. When he was on the campaign trail, I think he walked. I think now he basically goes from the residence to the Oval Office often, and that's most of the steps he gets. And he asked his staff if he could if there's anything else he could do instead of walking. He doesn't really believe in exercise, as has been reported before. And so, yeah, I mean, he's not a health nut. He might be, you know, healthier as an 80 year old than most people would be if all they do is eat McDonald's and don't walk around. But healthier than Obama felt like, you know, pretty funny to me.
- [11:12]
Tim Miller
Pretty concerning to me that just like working doctors at Walter Reed are like corrupted to such a degree that they sound indistinguishable from Carolyn Levitt. Like, I don't know, we probably shouldn't expect that. You know, our press secretary, the spokesman for the president, lies, but kind of that's sort of part of the job, I guess. The press secretary is going to always be spinning, at least on behalf of the president. But it's like pretty noteworthy that he now, this is the second time he's found doctors that sound pretty indistinguishable from what a campaign spokesperson would sound like.
- [11:45]
Ben Terris
Yeah. And the first time was amazing.
- [11:46]
Tim Miller
Right.
- [11:46]
Ben Terris
It was that guy who, you know, put during the campaign in 2015 or whatever, who put out the statement about how Trump is the healthiest man alive, basically. And then it turned out that Trump had written that statement himself.
- [11:56]
Tim Miller
Yeah. You mentioned the walking. One of the other viral theories going around was that I enjoyed, obviously, was that there's a catheter going down his leg. It looked like something was jutting out of his suit pants as he kind of limped. In a couple of videos, did you get anything on that? Did you learn anything what was happening there?
- [12:16]
Ben Terris
I did. I did sort of like take a peek at his legs when I was there, you know, like you do. And I didn't see anything when I was there. You know, they obviously deny that he wears a catheter. There was one other thing too, that was.
- [12:31]
Tim Miller
That's going to be my headline. Okay, your headline was Stephen Miller suggested Superhuman President. Mine will be President forced to deny he wears a catheter.
- [12:41]
Ben Terris
Yeah, I mean, that's great. There was another thing too, that was like they believe there was some belief online that he had some sort of medical device, like, attached to his hip. And the White House claims that's just a box of Tic Tacs that he always has because he has a Tic Tac addiction. So I did actually hear Tic Tacs when he, when he came into the Oval Office. Like it was a Seinfeld episode, you.
- [12:59]
Tim Miller
Know, and that's kind of an old man thing.
- [13:01]
Ben Terris
Yeah, I mean, he's kind of an old man.
- [13:03]
Tim Miller
Yeah. How did the hands look when you saw him up close?
- [13:08]
Ben Terris
Yeah, gross. You know, he has a very warm and soft hand when you shake his hand.
- [13:15]
Tim Miller
You know, a lot of physical labor over the years.
- [13:18]
Ben Terris
Yeah, not a ton. And, you know, that was surprising that it was, that it was so soft. But then on the other side, the backside of his hand, it looked kind of like rhino hide. I mean, it was very dry. Just the bruise had kind of taken over the whole back of his hand. I think I write that it looked like an ink blot test. And I don't know. He's very self conscious about the hand, as we know. Right. He puts a dollop of makeup on it. That makes it even more visible sometimes. I was at that Momdani Trump Oval Office meeting, which was an amazing meeting.
- [13:49]
Tim Miller
Oh, really?
- [13:50]
Ben Terris
Yeah, I was there. I was there watching him, you know, scoping out the hand, among other things. And he spent the whole time covering his hand with his other hand so nobody could see it. And then every once in a while he would just like look at it. Like he was checking the time and it was like he is very self conscious about it. In fact, I talked to somebody who had a meeting with Trump and he had a bruise on the back of his, his hand and he wanted to like, relate with the President about it. You know, he's like, look, I got one too. And Trump shot it down. He didn't want to talk about it at all.
- [14:17]
Tim Miller
Was there anything interesting off camera at the Trump Mamdani meeting?
- [14:21]
Ben Terris
I was mostly there for the on camera part. You know, I didn't, I didn't get to see the kind of secret meeting. And, and so, you know, I just saw what everyone else saw and then they ushered everybody out. But I mean, it was fascinating to watch, obviously, like, especially because I was there to watch him and see how if he looked old or not. And he was next to kind of the youngest, hottest, coolest, you know, politician. And, you know, Trump clearly wanted some of that energy. It felt, it felt to me like that's why he liked Mamdani so much as he wanted, you know, some of that kind of spark.
- [14:49]
Tim Miller
I do think that we'd, that there would be a different conversation and maybe worse for him, maybe better. I don't know about all of this. If he just didn't make wear makeup, like, if he, if you just saw what Trump really looks like, like he looks like an 80 year old man, kind of like Joe Biden. So like there'd be some benefited transparency to that. You know, he wouldn't be doing the death of Stalin stuff like making up these ridiculous lies. On the other hand, maybe he would think that would make him look more weak and feeble. But I do think that that is kind of what is underlining all this. Like, he, he just puts a lot of effort into looking like a clown rather than an elderly person.
- [15:26]
Ben Terris
No, I think you're right. I mean, because one thing he has done recently is he stopped dyeing his hair. It was something I noticed right away when I saw him. His hair is white now instead of kind of that orange golden hue that it has been for a long time. And honestly, it looked better, right? Like he, it didn't look ridiculous. I, I saw him and I was like, oh, it's a guy who's aging. And, and you know, I talked to some of his staff who was like, it's the only concession to aging that he admits to, basically. And a lot of people around him were happy because they were like, thank God, like, he doesn't look quite as ridiculous anymore.
- [15:56]
Tim Miller
You did say some people around him said that his hearing is going a little bit.
- [15:59]
Ben Terris
Yeah, that's right. He doesn't notice that, apparently.
- [16:01]
Tim Miller
Like. Sure.
- [16:03]
Ben Terris
I mean, that's the thing about this is a lot of these signs of aging are totally normal and not embarrassing and, you know, a normal person would admit to them. But a big part of the story is that Trump is flailing for control right now. Right. He's sort of losing in the polls. He's losing his control over the party in some ways. He's losing control over his ability to get the attention of America at all times. And I think he's losing control of the story about how young and healthy he is. And so when he's losing control, he kind of pushes back as hard as humanly possible. It's one thing to say, yeah, I feel great for 80 and I'm losing my hearing a little bit. And, yeah, I'm not as fast as I once was, and I can't hit quite as far as I could on the, on the golf course, but, like, pretty good for 80. And it's another thing to have all of your people say, this is the healthiest man alive. Caroline Levitt told me that outside of the Oval Office, where the Marine, the Marines stand sent century, they've had to, quote, call for backup because the Marines can't keep up with his work schedule. He's working so hard that even the Marines can't keep up. And you Hear stuff like that and you're like, you sound ridiculous. Like you could just say like, he's doing pretty well for 80. But no, they have to push back as hard as ever because that's the only way Trump operates.
- [17:19]
Tim Miller
The last little interesting anecdote I want to ask you about is my old friend Marco, who was exceedingly, I don't know, I guess, what word would you use to describe Marco's fawning description of Donald Trump's health? You know, speaking about him as if he was a talented Miami University quarterback in his athletic prowess. But then he adds an anecdote about how he hides from Trump on Air Force One so Trump can't see him sleeping.
- [17:51]
Ben Terris
Yeah, a big part of what everyone wants to tell me about when they talk about Trump is that he's got more energy than anyone, more energy than the 20 year olds that work in the White House. And Rubio told me that when he goes on Air Force One, Rubio needs to take a nap. When they go, you know, when they travel across the, you know, across the ocean, when they go international travel, he needs to take a nap. That's normal. Airplane rides are long and boring and tiring, and he needs to take a nap. But he's terrified that the President will see him napping because Trump apparently does not sleep on Air Force One ever. And he's so afraid that the President is going to see him sleeping and think that he's weak, that Rubio will take a blanket and wrap himself in it, he said, like a mummy, cover his head. He did a whole little impression for me, you know, taking, you know, a fake blanket and wrapping it over his head and lies down on a couch in a back conference room somewhere, wrapped up. So if the President were to walk by, he might think it's just some staffer who's asleep and not the Secretary of State. You know, this is a guy who's a, this is, the Secretary of State is supposed to, you know, instill confidence in our allies and fear and our, our adversaries. And he's, you know, hiding on an airplane from, from an 80 year old man who might seem sleeping.
- [18:58]
Tim Miller
Do we think that's apocryphal or do we think that's real?
- [19:01]
Ben Terris
I mean, I believe it, honestly, he told me.
- [19:03]
Tim Miller
And it feels a little bit more conspicuous to me to wrap yourself up like a mummy and go home.
- [19:08]
Ben Terris
Yeah, but maybe Trump walks by and he's like, ah, yeah, it's just some loser wrapped up in a blanket.
- [19:14]
Tim Miller
Little risk. I don't know. If you just. If you talk to Marco again, just flag this. For him, though. It's like a little risk because Trump walks out, and he's like, where's little Marco? Where's little Marco? And then people are like, he's hiding from you. Wrapped up like a mummy. That feels like that'd be more embarrassing than if he was just kind of resting his eyes. He would pretend like. He could pretend like he was thinking or listening.
- [19:32]
Ben Terris
You call him little Marco. But, you know, Rubio told me a story about how Trump got him shoes, and he said that they were size 12, and they were a perfect fit.
- [19:39]
Tim Miller
So did they have the heels?
- [19:42]
Ben Terris
You know, they did look like they had some heel to them. Yeah. I mean, they were shiny black dress shoes. He was wearing them, you know, when I had my interview with Rubio.
- [19:48]
Tim Miller
Okay, so jury's still out on. Well, we're going to the aspirin for the bruising.
- [19:53]
Ben Terris
Yeah.
- [19:53]
Tim Miller
I mean, tic tacs, maybe. Catheter. We have a denial. MRI was just coincidence. Happened to be around.
- [20:02]
Ben Terris
Look, I'm just saying, the doctors say he's the healthiest president they've ever been around. And what are you gonna do?
- [20:08]
Tim Miller
I forgot I had one more. The Ari Emanuel story is funny. The Ari Emanuel story, too.
- [20:13]
Ben Terris
Yeah, it was great. You know, at one point, when I'm interviewing him, his phone rings, and it's Ari Emanuel, the super agent, you know, Jeremy Piven's character in Entourage and Rahm Emanuel's brother. And Trump just puts him on speakerphone, and he's like, ari, Ari, I got this writer here from New York Magazine. He's writing about my health. Can you be my reference, basically? And Emmanuel, who is calling about, I don't know, tax rebates or something for Hollywood, is just all of a sudden put on speakerphone and has to be like, yeah, hi, Ben. He seems normal to me. Like, he's still with it. And then he has to kind of caveat it by being like, you know, I haven't seen him in five years. But yeah, yeah. And then Trump's like, oh, yeah. But he'd say I was. He'd say I was losing it if he thought I. This guy's a fucking legend. And he hangs up on Emanuel.
- [20:59]
Tim Miller
It truly is amazing how easily these guys just get pushed around by Trump. You wouldn't think that Ari Emanuel would need to do that.
- [21:06]
Ben Terris
You know, everybody. I mean, that's the thing, is, like, everybody in his orbit, they just can't help but become, you know, the ultimate Trump lackeys. It's the only way to succeed in his government, I think, you know, long term, it might not be a recipe for success, but it's a recipe for success right now.
- [21:21]
Tim Miller
Well, I hope you continue on the bruising beat because I'd like to know more. And I'm not an investigative journalist and I'm interested, so I'll keep on it. Do keep us posted. That's Ben Teris, everybody. Subscribe to the feed. Go check his workout at New York magazine. One of the best feature writers going. And we'll see you all soon.
- [21:40]
Ben Terris
Thanks so much.