Sam Stein (5:02)

I want to home in on the ceasefire for a second, okay. Because there was, there was a 10 point plan that was floated. There was a statement from Pakistani officials that there was some agreement. Like literally, have you seen a single piece of paper that actually describes. Nope, not a single piece of paper. Not a summarization from the administration or the State Department. Nothing from Rock R B that said this is the condition. Okay.

Senator Chris Coons (5:25)

Nope.

Sam Stein (5:27)

Okay. One of the components of the proposed ceasefire that was floated out there in the ether, I guess it's the not on paper is that all these conditions will be met by the Iranians or some conditions by the Iranians in exchange for sanctions relief. Is it your understanding that the administration can unilaterally apply sanctions relief to the Iranians?

Senator Chris Coons (5:48)

My recollection, Sam, is that there are some sanctions that are unilaterally wavable by the administration and some that are statutory and mandatory and that require congressional action. Look, bluntly, right before Trump launched the full scale assault on Iran, I actually expected him at the last minute to say, aha, I have a deal that is better, deeper, broader, whatever, you know, than Obama's Iran deal that I tore up. But that would frankly look awfully similar. It would trade sanctions relief for getting IAEA inspectors back into Iran, for down blending and constraining their enriched uranium stockpile, and maybe some constraints on ballistic missiles or maybe some constraints on their proxies in the region. And I think that may be where this ends up. If there is a productive negotiation and there actually is a ceasefire, oh, 100%

Sam Stein (6:42)

where it ends up. I mean, the broad contras of that 10 point plan actually look more favorable to the Iranians than the jcpoa. What kind of. I guess people who look at this say, well, Congress is not some just sort of secondary branch. Although crazily it feels like it to be honest. No offense, but there are roles that Congress should be able to play and some oversight that Congress should be play in this process. One of them is of course just supplementing money for the military. So the budget request was 1.5 million defense.

Senator Chris Coons (7:10)

Trillion.

Sam Stein (7:11)

Sorry, not billion. Trillion. Thank you for the catch. It's been reported that there's a $98 billion supplemental request just for Iran. What's the appetite on the Hill for this type of cash?

Senator Chris Coons (7:23)

I think in my caucus very limited for several reasons. One is if this were to be used as a backdoor way to authorize the war, to point to our appropriations and say, well, they've appropriated the money for it, so they've implicitly authorized it. Look, we're Article one and we have the constitutional role and responsibility of authorizing war. They did not come to us for an authorization of the use of military force and did not meaningfully come to us before launching this war. And so I think there's real opposition in my caucus to a supplemental that could be construed that way in terms of replenishing our supplies of advanced munitions, you know, Patriot interceptors, for example, something that we need and something that we've used a huge number of. I think there may be some willingness to do that after the administration comes forward with some accounting for what the hell they've done with the hundreds of billions of dollars in reconciliation money they got last year. There's all this fanciful golden dome stuff and lots of one year acquisition. And so, you know, they, the Republican majority appropriated a massive slush fund for the Pentagon last year that they have never fully accounted for. So I think before you would see any of us supporting a supplemental to, you know, replenish our stockpiles, we demand seeing that. And frankly, I think the likelihood that we'll do any supplemental while this war is ongoing is very small.

Sam Stein (8:54)

It's an interesting point about how that can serve as de facto authorization for the war. I hadn't thought about it that way. Obviously, there's an appetite for your colleagues on the Democratic side of the legislature to actually have an authorization vote on the war. And it's been tabled on various points. Will we ever get to a place, you think, where we'll have a just sort of a straight up and down vote? Do you authorize what's happening in Iran?

Senator Chris Coons (9:14)

Yes, I do think that both Senator Kaine, who's really made the War Powers act and war powers resolutions an area of focus, and good for him. He's managed to get us to actually, you know, legally deauthorize the, what is it, 2001 and 2004? I think AUMFs that were long used to authorize all sorts of other military activities. That is a privileged resolution, which is a nerdy way of saying it gets a vote. And even though we're in the minority when filed, it gets a vote. And so I've been talking to a number of colleagues about how do we directly show disapproval of ongoing military action and show pressure towards a diplomatic resolution. Senator Schumer also has a mechanism that he intends to pursue in the coming week that will move in that direction. So there's lots of moving parts. But I do think we should be on the record and we should have every member of Congress voting up or down whether they supported this military action.

Sam Stein (10:12)

And now the backdrop of this. I mean, not the backdrop. It's, it's. Part of this is that Donald Trump has spent the past couple of weeks very critical of NATO for not forcefully supporting this war in Iran, never mind that he launched it without consultation or that he's threatened Greenland. Putting that aside, if you can, the NATO Secretary General, Mark Ruta, came to America to talk with Trump. It was a long talk. It was over two hours. And then he went on TV a couple times to talk about that talk. And I was struck, and I don't know if you were struck by the way that the Secretary General talked about NATO itself. I mean, this is the man who's in charge of running NATO. And he was openly critical of certain. He didn't name them NATO states, saying they. They failed on their mission. I, I couldn't quite comprehend that someone who's leading this entity would be that openly critical when NATO itself has been targeted by Trump. I don't know if you share my interpretation of Mark Ruta's comments. Everyone assumes that he's doing this because he needs to curry favor with Trump and keep the alliance intact. And maybe so, but at some point, is he going too far in being critical of his own entity?

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Senator Chris Coons (12:22)

That's a fair question, Sam. And look, one of the things that's been stunning to me is Trump's ability to achieve something really significant and then dump all over it at the same time. So just this is just like within his political calculus, within his political world. He ran in 2016 on, like, modernizing NAFTA, like, you know, scrapping and updating NAFTA. And then in his first term, he actually got it done. Nancy Pelosi, speaker of the House, Democratic majority, worked with President Trump and they got the, the usmca, which is the Today Canada, US Mexico Trade agreement. And almost the first week that Trump became president, the second time, he's threatening to make Canada the 51st state and trashing the trade deal. What idiot negotiated this? What a horrible trade deal. It's like, it's like, I don't know, maybe you.

Sam Stein (13:17)

Well, the same thing's happening with Iran where he's like, all these presidents have let it get to this place. And it's like, well, you were, you were president. Yeah.

Senator Chris Coons (13:24)

The relevance to the NATO point. I am going to bring this back. The relevance to the NATO point. So he complained, complained, complained. Right, right. Freeloaders, you know, they're not pulling their way. You know, they've. And he scares the living daylights out of them and Ruta pulls them all together. And I was there for the summit in the Netherlands. All of NATO came to the table and said, okay, we are gravely concerned about Putin and Putin's war of aggression against Ukraine. We are gravely concerned about our shared security. And, and they stepped forward and committed to 3 1/2% of GDP based military spending, 5% total in support of collective defense, and paying the entire tab for all the munitions for Ukraine. And they're doing it. I mean, we're talking hundreds and hundreds of billions of dollars of additional spending. And the largest economies in Europe, you know, Germany and Italy and France and the U.K. i mean, they are making major investments. We were already at the point where the Baltic states and Poland, Poland, excuse me, were at 3% of GDP. But getting these other big economies at that level is really something. So why on earth would he not say NATO? Thank you for stepping up. Thank you for picking up hundreds of billions of dollars of slack. You're my great and trusted partners and allies. Oh, and by the way, we just pulled all of our American minesweepers out of the Persian Gulf right before I started this war. And the only people who've got minesweepers are, let's guess, NATO allies in Europe. So instead of berating them, attacking them, minimizing them, threatening to take Greenland and crazy crap like that, threatening to use tariffs to bring them to their knees, just a little bit of recognition of what they've already done, I think could have produced a positive outcome here. This is where Trump's like, madman. You know, you never know what he's going to do yet next. I think overperforms Most of NATO is profoundly alarmed at Trump's obeisance to Putin. I mean, you know, he invites Putin to Alaska, rolls out the red carpet, hugs the guy, you know, this war criminal who's carrying out this horrific war of aggression in Europe. He acts like, oh, we're best buds, you know, all I got to do is hug you, and you're going to stop killing civilians. And he dresses down Zelensky in a shocking and appalling way. You don't have any cards yet, because you just took them away. I'll never let you into NATO. And yet the next day, after the Alaska summit with Putin, Putin's launching missiles and drones at civilian targets in Ukraine, basically saying to Trump, are you looking at me? And Trump this week is going to decide whether to extend the sanctions relief for Russia. Trump's war against Iran means that Russia is making more money now than they were before. The Iranians are making more money now than they were before. I think that Rota is desperately doing his level best to hold the NATO alliance together. Is he overperforming in, you know, calling Trump his daddy? These are pretty desperate moments. And there are a good number of NATO allies who are convinced that the foundation of our alliance, the trust that they should have in the United States as the guarantor of their security, is inevitably fading. I mean, just look at Mark Carney, Prime Minister Carney's speech at a major summit in Europe earlier this year about how the middle powers rearranging it. Tornado members need to begin for a future.

Sam Stein (17:03)

So you're. You're saying that the job. You're saying the job requires a certain amount of debasing oneself and being vaguely critical of NATO states for not being, you know, supportive enough of Trump, and you just have to suck it up, because ultimately the goal is keep the alliance.

Senator Chris Coons (17:21)

I think ultimately the goal is keep the alliance. But there's two other observations I'll make. One, sure. I led a statement with Senator McConnell. And so the pairs, you know, Senator Reid, McConnell, we had a whole group of us say NATO is the most important security treaty that we've ever been a part of. And Trump continues to say and do just appalling things. His Easter Sunday tweet, his truth social statement about, you know, erasing Iran's civilization. Yeah, he's acting in ways that are way outside the boundaries of, you know, any normal head of state. And so what we've seen in the other countries who've either gone on bended knee and given him, you know, gold gifts or stood up to him in the tariff fights. The countries that have stood up to him have done better than the ones that came on bended knee. So I think NATO needs to do both everything they possibly can to keep the alliance strong and together. And we in Congress have a role in that and begin to demonstrate some independence. You need to come open the Strait of Hormuz. The UK held a conference, didn't invite us, and kind of said, here's what we are willing to do, but we're not going to come bail you out right now. And so I do think they're hitting the right balance.

Sam Stein (18:39)

Well, let's talk about another alliance, which is the US Israel alliance, because clearly as, I mean, look, I haven't been around for 20 years, so it's not that long, but I've never seen these two countries work off of different scripts like this, at least openly. Now, I think the Trump administration is still outwardly friendly towards Israel and obviously a deep alliance there, but you can tell behind the scenes they're frustrated with some of the stuff that Netanyahu has done. Putting that aside, Democrats are even more frustrated and you can see it everywhere. And so just sort of a general question, I want you to summarize the state of the Democratic Party's posture towards Israel. What would you say?

Senator Chris Coons (19:21)

I'd say that there is a profound disgust and distrust with the Netanyahu government and with what in particular Smoch and Ben GVIR and his cabinet are doing with the sort of creeping annexation of the west bank by supporting settler violence, with the horrific humanitarian crisis in Gaza that while it is less awful than it was months ago, really has not been fully addressed or resolved. And bluntly, to the point you just made about the Trump administration, when the Netanyahu government struck Qatar and attempted to kill the negotiators who were trying to negotiate the ceasefire with Hamas. That's when I think Trump finally lost all patience for it. And there was some stepping back by Netanyahu.

Sam Stein (20:09)

Hold on. And yet this seems to be a tactic that has happened again. I mean, the Iranian negotiators were targeted during the negotiations. I, I don't understand. Maybe I'm naive. But why would you target the negotiators in these high stake diplomatic moments? Doesn't that just absolutely put an end to the possibility of any diplomatic offer? Maybe that is the goal. Right.

Senator Chris Coons (20:30)

I. Look, I think Netanyahu's core objective is regime change in Iran. And whether that is by breaking it into domestic chaos and civil war, or there is an actual change to some more friendly regime. I'm not sure that he cares. And for the United States and for our Gulf regional allies, having Iran just collapse into internal domestic turmoil and produce millions of refugees and a series of sort of warlords who keep plinking away at Qatar and UAE and Saudi, that's a really bad outcome. So even though Trump is claiming there's been regime change. No, there hasn't. There's been a regime succession, you know, Ayatollah 1, Ayatollah 2, but the IRGC is still firmly in control of the country. I think it was a despicable thing to say help is on the way and then do nothing and watch tens of thousands of Iranian protesters be machine gun, is it?

Sam Stein (21:31)

I'm just gonna say it's yes, I agree we've done nothing in the Aga, but there, there was a weird, there's a weird little aside that Trump let out of his mouth where he said we had sent arms, I think presumably to the Kurds, but that then they just kept it to themselves and they didn't do anything with it. And I'm, I don't, I have no idea anything more beyond that. Maybe you have some insight into what that was?

Senator Chris Coons (21:55)

None that I can share. Look, the, the ham fisted attempt at trying to use the Kurds as a wedge into Iran I, I think was not well conceived or executed. And bluntly, you know, one of the things that, that happened when Doge, you know, sort of tore through USAID and the State Department and some of the entities, you know, like Voice of America, we lost a lot of critical capacity and staff. Career folks in the State Department and in the, you know, center for Global Media who were capable of communicating with the Iranian people who had a lot of experience in how do you support resistance movements or uprisings or political opposition. We sort of gave away a lot of that capacity by shutting down.

Sam Stein (22:48)

Had not thought about that, had not thought about that angle at all. But it's definitely worth exploring.

Senator Chris Coons (22:52)

And what have we known for years are the tools that Iran could and might well use if we launched a full on regime change effort. Cyber attacks, cyber attacks on the United States and terrorism through sleeper cells and a core group of the most experienced counter Iranian, counter terrorism and cyber folks were dismissed just before this war started because they were also FBI agents or national security officials who had been involved in some way in investigating Trump previously.

Sam Stein (23:28)

Yeah, I remember that one. That was ill conceived

Senator Chris Coons (23:32)

planning.

Sam Stein (23:36)

It did give me flashback to them in the first term getting rid of the pandemic preparedness office right before COVID that was not a good time. Before we get to domestic matters, just, I was watching, I think it was Pete Buttigieg this morning on cnbc. And they're sort of talking about all, you know, they're going back and forth and one of the questions that was confounding everyone on the panel is, okay, well, what's the offer up here? Like, how do we get out of this? You know, gas is at, know, insane levels, over $4 a gallon. Oil is back over 100. You know, we're, we're looking at like long term economic consequences. Even the rosy scenario where, you know, months of, you know, elevated prices which is going to have, you know, add on effects and inflation and like, we're all trying to figure out what do we do to get out of this now. And I, and I don't think they had a good answer on the panel and I don't know if there is a good answer.

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Senator Chris Coons (24:40)

Look, just a simple observation. Don't renewables look better now? All those massive wind projects that were permitted and underway that Trump canceled or cut, you know, countries in the world that have got robust solar and wind and geothermal and their own resources that are not part of the world market are benefiting and those that have abandoned them or failed are really suffering. Small point, but a real one, I think. I think Trump's war of choice against Iran has created a new problem, which is that Iran is asserting control over the Strait of Hormuz and they've got now a chit that is really going to be hard to get out of their hands. And they've still got the enriched uranium stockpile that even though they may not be able to turn it into a deliverable nuclear weapon, they can certainly turn into a dirty bomb. And they've demonstrated that they have the ability to keep launching shahed drones by the hundreds nearly indefinitely. So we are in a spot. That means a negotiated ceasefire and peace deal may be the only way forward. The challenge is that's going to leave a lot on the table that had we simply gotten to this point without this war, we might have gotten a better deal.

Sam Stein (25:59)

Yeah, I mean, you didn't offer a really great off ramp, to be honest, but I don't think there is one. Like, I don't think the negotiated settlement is the, is the obvious one. But it requires us to sort of acknowledge that this was done in folly. Or that the JCPOA probably was fine.

Senator Chris Coons (26:15)

Other off ramp is take the aircraft carriers and the Marines and the 82nd Airborne and go in hard and try to seize control of the strait, seize control of Carg Island. We will have thousands of American casualties.

Sam Stein (26:31)

I don't think that's happening.

Senator Chris Coons (26:33)

A brutal slog. And on the other side of it, yeah, you might be able to squeeze off the funding for the regime. You might now have new leverage against China. You know, our Gulf allies might feel somehow reassured that we were willing to put American blood and treasure at risk again in the Middle East. But I think the odds of that becoming a disastrous quagmire are high.

Sam Stein (26:57)

Pretty high. All right, switching domestic. So you're on the Judiciary Committee. Never a dull moment there. We have, I guess, not opening because Ty Blanche is currently occupying it, but Attorney General Pambani was let go. And presumably at some point in time, Donald Trump will nominate another attorney general for the post. A lot has changed since Pam Bondi was confirmed. There was, I look back, there's only one Democratic senator who voted for. It was John Fetterman. But I am kind of curious, you know, your colleagues on the Republican side of the aisle, and you talk to them, presumably, do you think they're thinking about the next attorney general has changed, too, knowing that Trump is just openly viewing the Justice Department as sort of a cog in his political machinery, if not a defense department for himself.

Senator Chris Coons (27:43)

So it is stunning, Sam, that Pam Bondi in her confirmation hearing kept saying, no, no, no, the era of retribution is over. We are going to depoliticize the.

Sam Stein (27:54)

You didn't believe it, though, right?

Senator Chris Coons (27:56)

No, I didn't believe. That's why I voted. But we now have clear evidence that Trump pushed and pushed and pushed for her to direct and demand the investigation and prosecution of his perceived political enemies. Two federal grand juries refused to indict charges. That has almost never happened. You know the saying, a federal prosecutor can indict a hymn sandwich through a grand jury. It's very rare. Now Trump is going to be pushing for someone even more aggressive and loyal. And I hope and pray that several of my Republican colleagues, knowing that Trump isn't ever going to be on the ballot again and that this will end badly for them, will look at it and say, you know what? No, I'm, no, I'm not voting for this attorney General. I am not hopeful, but I am prayerful that they'll just happened. And, you know, look, Thom Tillis still serves with me on the Judiciary Committee. Good point.

Sam Stein (28:53)

Good Point.

Senator Chris Coons (28:54)

His questioning in the oversight hearing of Kristi Noemi. Like I thought, Sheldon Whitehouse and I asked really tough, really hard questions. Then it gets all the way down to Thom Tillis, and he says, and about your dog, I thought, wow,

Sam Stein (29:08)

I forgot about that. He took real umbrage over the dog.

Senator Chris Coons (29:11)

You failed in your job, the people of North Carolina. Here's a list. Like, never got the FEMA aid they deserve. So he started with a legitimate constituent issue, and then he just hammered and hammered and hammered. I am hoping that Senator Tillis will similarly say, I'm not voting for anyone who has a direct. A directive from the president to prosecute his political enemies, but I don't know if he will. And there's nobody else on that side.

Sam Stein (29:37)

Well, come to think, come to think of it, that's, you know, he's. He's held up the. The Ken Wash nomination because of the retribution campaign against Powell. So there is some, you know, that. And, and he has a. Obviously a soft spot for felines that were killed by, you know, or dogs that are killed by. So they got two types of people that they can't nominate here. In all, in all honesty, can you even fathom someone that Trump might put forward for this post that you would, you know, is there anything that person could even say to assuage you at this point? It's hard.

Senator Chris Coons (30:10)

Look, there is a possibility that he'll nominate a sitting senator, the former Missouri Attorney General. And I think part of the calculus in nominating Mark Wayne Mullen was that historically, any senator who gets nominated for a cabinet position gets confirmed because the Senate's collegial. And we've gotten to know them. We've worked together. The horror of ICE and CBP misconduct in Minneapolis and the murder of Alex Preddy and Renee Goode and the refusal to deliver concrete changes to ICE and CBP standards was so significant that, you know, even those of us who. Who know and have worked with Mark Wayne Mullen were not willing to give him a pass. Yeah, And I suspect you'll see exactly the same thing with the AG nominee, even if it's Eric Schmidt or someone else who we all know and have worked with, maybe a former senator. I don't. Yeah. I mean, Mike Lee. Right. Wow.

Sam Stein (31:10)

Do you follow him? Do you follow Mike Lee's Twitter feed by any chance? Do you see?

Senator Chris Coons (31:13)

I don't. I don't.

Sam Stein (31:15)

Just take a dip. Take a dip in those waters one day and report back to us. Okay, last question, because this one occurred to me, but it would come through the judiciary. What do you put the odds on for a Supreme Court retirement? I mean, look this, in all honesty, if you're being real politic about it, they could lose the Senate. That would close the window. Alito has had, I guess, some health episode at a Fed Society dinner. And he's getting up there in age. Thomas is up there in age. If you had to put the odds, what would you think here?

Senator Chris Coons (31:44)

70, 30? I mean, it would fit the pattern that we've seen previously under President Trump where they jammed through a last minute Supreme Court nomination. Trump is very proud of his role in reshaping the Supreme Court, although sometimes he's going after Amy Comey Barrett and Neil Gorsuch, which is stunning. I also, you know, bluntly think Trump's going to need something else to distract from Epstein now that the first lady has marched out to a podium and demanded public hearings from Epstein victims and saying, I'm not an Epstein victim.

Sam Stein (32:19)

What did you make of that? That was a bit of an odd one.

Senator Chris Coons (32:22)

Stunning. Stunning because of two things. First, you know, she's calling for more hearings with the Epstein victims. Epstein's victims do not need to be re. Victimized. Pam Bondi needs to testify about how she badly mishandled the redactions and the, and the disclosures and, and how she frankly, has been acting to cover Donald Trump and his circle of, you know, Epstein class friends. And I think the most important thing about Melania Trump's press conference at the White House was what she didn't say, she did not say. And I'm confident my husband engaged in no wrongdoing. I didn't know Epstein or Ghislaine Maxwell, and neither did he. I didn't have any relationship with them and neither did he. She didn't say that. She instead said, we need to have more hearings and then we'll know the truth. Powerful men need to be held accountable. I thought that was pretty stunning that it was apparently unknown to the President that his wife was about to go out and make those statements, that they didn't consult, that he wasn't standing there and she made no positive reference to him. I thought that was stunning.

Sam Stein (33:38)

It was a little bit odd. You just. So people understand it's. They had to consult on some of it, right? Like they literally used a part of the White House for the, for the statement. You can't just show up and have a lectern there without, without coordinating. But did no one ask, hey, what is this about? Like, what are you going to be talking about at some point, something was lost in communication or deliberately withheld unless I missed it.

Senator Chris Coons (34:01)

There was no immediate, you know, President Donald J. Trump endorses this message and calls for hearings like, this is a guy who's been saying the whole thing is a Democrat hoax the whole time.

Sam Stein (34:13)

Well, apparently his wife does not believe it's a hoax.

Senator Chris Coons (34:16)

Wires there.

Sam Stein (34:17)

Okay. All right. So we got a bit to look forward to, as you're saying. Potentially Bondi getting hauled back up. I know the House wants to do it. Potentially a. Well, almost assuredly another AG nominee confirmation hearing. Potentially a Supreme Court confirmation hearing, some resolution at some point to what's happening in Iran. It's a lot. You got a lot ahead of you.

Senator Chris Coons (34:36)

A lot. What I'm looking forward to tonight, Artemis Splashdown. Artemis positive between Americans and Canadians that advances our sense of, you know, our role in the, in the heavens and space exploration. I don't know about you, but I'm of an age. We're watching the Apollo moon landings as a little kid was genuinely inspiring. And I, I was struck that the president couldn't restrain himself and like, actually have a few days of positive news. He instead, you know, had to threaten to wipe out a civilization while the astronauts were trying to have a brief, shining moment of unity looking back at the Earth.

Sam Stein (35:14)

Well, maybe they're looking for another civilization and they went off this ride. All right. Senator Coons, thank you so much for doing this. Really appreciate it.

Senator Chris Coons (35:22)

Thanks. Yeah.

Sam Stein (35:23)

And for those who watch this, I appreciate you doing that. Subscribe to our feed. We get great conversations like this. Really informal but informative conversations with sitting senators. Only the Bulwark. Thanks. Center.