Trump’s Lies Blow Up in Shocking Declassified Report (w/ Rep. Jim Himes)

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Trump’s Lies Blow Up in Shocking Declassified Report (w/ Rep. Jim Himes)"

Bulwark Takes
Host: Tim Miller
Guest: Congressman Jim Himes, Ranking Member of the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence
Release Date: May 7, 2025

---

Introduction to Declassified Report and Alien Enemies Act

The episode begins with Tim Miller introducing Congressman Jim Himes to discuss a significant development involving a declassified intelligence report that challenges the Trump administration's narrative regarding Trend Aragua, a group purportedly linked to the Venezuelan government.

Tim Miller (00:00):
"...the argument that they need to employ the Alien Enemies Act, which was this notion that... Venezuela Maduro government and Trend Aragua were somehow working in concert."

Jim Himes (01:05):
"...the intelligence community...was actually saying... that Trend Aragua is something other than just a regular terrible street gang."

Contradiction Between Administration Claims and Intelligence Findings

Congressman Himes elaborates on the contrast between the Trump administration's assertions and the intelligence community's findings. While the administration suggested that Trend Aragua operated as a proxy for the Venezuelan government, the intelligence community refuted this, indicating no such direction from Venezuela.

Jim Himes (01:20):
"It's deadly serious stuff, Tim... the government doesn't get to take your stuff... without due process."

Tim Miller (02:54):
"Not entirely honest. I mean, they made it up out of whole cloth, it seems like to me."

Implications of Misusing the Alien Enemies Act

The discussion delves into the potential misuse of the Alien Enemies Act of 1798, highlighting its archaic language and narrow application. Himes expresses concern over the administration's attempt to apply wartime powers in peacetime scenarios without legitimate justification.

Jim Himes (03:26):
"This makes me a little nervous, too, because... the courts are going to rule you guys had no basis to do this."

Tim Miller (04:45):
"This seems to really undermine any plausible case they would have that this is an appropriate use of the Alien Enemies Act."

Consequences for Individuals Deported to El Salvador

Tim Miller brings up cases of individuals deported to El Salvador under the guise of combating a predatory incursion. These cases include individuals without any real connections to Trend Aragua, raising questions about the validity of their deportation.

Jim Himes (06:54):
"Everybody is entitled to due process... bad people are entitled to due process in this country, too."

Tim Miller (06:10):
"There’s at least several cases where it seems like these folks are not even trying to aragua."

Potential Political Fallout and Rule of Law Concerns

Himes expresses apprehension about the political repercussions within the administration, speculating that officials may face severe consequences for facilitating the flawed deportations. He warns of the broader implications for the rule of law if the president disregards Supreme Court rulings.

Jim Himes (04:45):
"...the courts are going to rule you guys had no basis to do this... a president ignoring the Supreme Court, and that is a very, very ugly place for this country to be."

Jim Himes (09:13):
"Rule of law is not something that should be, you know, judged against whether the American people are focused or not on it."

Challenges in Congressional Support and Bipartisan Efforts

Tim Miller questions the likelihood of garnering bipartisan support to uphold the rule of law, to which Himes responds with skepticism regarding Republican colleagues' willingness to collaborate on such issues.

Jim Himes (09:22):
"There’s a list of 300 questions that none of my Republican colleagues want to answer... way too many of my Republican colleagues don't feel the same way."

Tim Miller (08:29):
"What do you feel as an elected official, that it's going to be incumbent upon you guys, the Democrats, to continue to advocate on this?"

Side Discussion: Military Incidents and Leadership Critique

The conversation briefly shifts to discuss recent military incidents, including the loss of Super Hornet fighter jets in the Red Sea. Himes criticizes the Secretary of Defense for perceived incompetence and inappropriate behavior, emphasizing the need for serious leadership in defense roles.

Tim Miller (09:55):
"We had yet another Super Hornet fighter jet... We're renaming a lot of bodies of water."

Jim Himes (11:16):
"The secretary of defense doesn't have a spare millisecond to troll people on social media... they have to be serious people to do the jobs that they have."

Conclusion and Final Remarks

The episode concludes with Tim Miller thanking Congressman Himes for his insights into the intelligence missteps and their broader implications for national security and the rule of law.

Tim Miller (11:37):
"Congressman Jim Himes, thanks for keeping us posted on everything going on in Intel World."

Jim Himes (11:42):
"Thanks a lot. Take care."

---

Key Takeaways

1. Intelligence vs. Administration Claims: The declassified report reveals discrepancies between the Trump administration's claims about Trend Aragua and the intelligence community's findings, undermining the justification for invoking the Alien Enemies Act.

2. Due Process Concerns: The misuse of the Alien Enemies Act threatens the fundamental principle of due process, extending it unjustly to individuals without legitimate ties to predatory incursions.

3. Political Repercussions: The administration faces potential backlash and loss of credibility, with possible internal consequences for officials involved in the flawed deportation process.

4. Rule of Law: Upholding the rule of law remains a critical and ongoing effort, transcending current political focus and requiring bipartisan support, which remains uncertain.

5. Leadership and Accountability: Criticism of defense leadership highlights broader issues of accountability and the necessity for competent governance in national security matters.

---

This episode of Bulwark Takes provides a comprehensive analysis of the fallout from the Trump administration's use of intelligence to justify the Alien Enemies Act, emphasizing the importance of transparency, accountability, and adherence to the rule of law in maintaining democratic principles.

Transcript

[Tim Miller]

Hey, everybody, it's Tim Miller from the Bulwark here. I am back with Congressman Jim Himes, ranking member of the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence. There's a lot of. There's a lack of intelligence in a lot of what's happening out there today. So it's important that we bring you in on this. And I want to talk in particular, Congressman, about this assessment that the Intelligence Department had made that was undergirding, I guess you can maybe explain, if I have this exactly right, the argument that they need to employ the Alien Enemies act, which was this notion that, you know, that we had this invading force, that Venezuela and the Venezuela Maduro government and trend were somehow working in concert. And in order to combat that invading force, we have to, you know, enact this, this wartime power in order to deport these folks to El Salvador. And as it turns out, you guys over on the committee were asking for the classified, I guess, internal documents and briefing on this, and it showed that, you know, actually that's not exactly the case. So that's my Reader's Digest summary. You give us a little more detail.

[Jim Himes]

Not just not exactly the case. Right. What the president, the administration, and the Director of National Intelligence were saying, which is that trend Aragua is operating as a proxy of the Venezuelan government is the exact opposite of what the intelligence community, which purportedly the Director of National Intelligence runs, was actually saying. Right. And, you know, it's deadly serious stuff, Tim. Right. Because, you know, we're a country that takes liberty and freedom seriously. And at the core of that is that the government doesn't get to take your stuff or take you or, you know, whatever without due process. And that's. That's true of everybody in our country. And there are these very, very narrow exceptions, including the bizarre Alien enemies Act of 1798, which says that in this very limited circumstance, if there's a state of war or if they're in wonderful sort of 18th century language, if there is a predatory incursion, then due process disappears. Well, you know, the White House has a few lawyers, and they know that we're not in a state of war. And so they were like, okay, maybe we can convince some folks that there is a predatory incursion. Maybe Alito and Clarence Thomas will sign up for that idea, and maybe we can get a few more. Well, that, of course, relies on the notion that this, that Trend Aragua is something other than just a regular terrible street gang. Right, right. Well, it turns out that the intelligence community that the Americans spend 90 billion ish a year to pay for. Looked at this and said, no, there is no direction by. Of trend Aragua by. By Venezuelans. And I mean, that's scary for two reasons. Number one, due process is pretty important, and it's important for people you don't like as well as for people that you do like. And secondly, you know, the president and a lot of senior officials were, if I may put this very nicely, not being entirely honest with us about this.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, that is very nicely. Not entirely honest. I mean, they made it up out of whole cloth, it seems like to me.

[Jim Himes]

I'll sign up for that.

[Tim Miller]

Okay. I do wonder, there are a few things that are concerning about this. There's one, I don't know if I want to call it a silver lining, but thing that I was curious about, which is these guys. Why did they play ball with you, do you think? I mean, I'm kind of surprised that the administration isn't just totally stonewalling everything and everything just based on, you know, how they're following the norms and procedures and rules of law across. And rule of law across other elements of the.

[Jim Himes]

Yeah, no, I mean, it's a fascinating question. We're all scratching our heads around here because you're, of course, referring to the fact that, I guess it was the Freedom of the Press foundation submitted a Freedom of Information act request, and lo and behold, it was acted on very quickly. The report that is now public is dated April 7th. You know, sometimes FOIA requests can take months and months, if not years, right? And boom, it's out there. There's probably a story there. I don't know what it is. But what I do fear, you know, since this was just such a black eye for the administration's credibility on such an important topic, what I do fear is that, you know, some pretty hefty political people are now knocking on the door of whatever poor SOB does FOIA requests for the government and saying it's time for you to take a very long vacation to a radar station in Alaska.

[Tim Miller]

That's also concerning. Okay, thank you. I love that. That's very appropriate for the bulwark that you take a little hopeful anecdote and turn it into something scary and concerning and alarming. So I guess my other hopeful, potential anecdote is these guys are. Have almost no leg to stand on legally. I think as far as looking forward, I want to get to the people that are already in El Salvador next. As far as looking forward, making this argument, what do you make of that? I mean, this seems to really Undermine any politics, plausible case they would have that this is an appropriate use of the Alien Enemies Act.

[Jim Himes]

Yeah, that's right. I mean, look, the case was always going to be thin, right? And again, there's this bizarre, you know, 1798 language about a predatory incursion, you know, and so it was always going to be a thin read, right. I mean, what's next, you know, is the Mafia going to be subject to this? Because they look like Trend Aragua and maybe they have some connection to Sicily or. I, I mean, you can see the slippery slope here. Right? So, yeah, I, and, and, and I'll tell you, this makes me a little nervous, too, because, yeah, they don't have a legal, any legal ground to stand on. And it's, you know, in some ways it's ridiculous, right, because if they'd afforded these people due process, these people would be on their way out of the country, by and large. Right. But they chose not to. They chose a shortcut. Now they're embarrassed about the fact that they were lying to the American people about the connections between Venezuela and Trend Aragua. And of course, you know, this is the Trump administration backing down is never okay. You know, Tulsi Gabbard is still out there saying this is a case of, you know, a media outlet manipulating a report. You can read the darn report. And it contradicts what she says. Right. And so, you know, it makes me nervous because at some point the courts are going to rule you guys had no basis to do this, so you need to get these people back. And, you know, Stephen Miller is going to be whispering in the President's ear, just don't do it. Just don't do it. And now you've got the prospect of a president ignoring the Supreme Court, and that is a very, very ugly place for this country to be.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, it's alarming. What, what are the folks that, you know, have now that are in Sukkot in El Salvador because of, you know, these actions? Those are the three planes or whatever that have, that have been there now and at least several cases where it seems like these folks are not even trying to Aragua, even if they were doing a predatory incursion, like, you know, the makeup artist, the guy with the autism awareness tattoo, the Uber driver in Michigan that accidentally drove across to Canada. And there's the family that went to Columbia first, went, came here the right way. I like, there are four or five of these at minimum. And so, like, what do you have any thoughts on, you know, what is possible at this point? Regarding those folks, Sure, I know what's possible.

[Jim Himes]

You know, it would take 3 milliseconds for the President, United States, to call up Mr. Bukele, the President of El Salvador, and say every single person that got off that plane and is in your prison gets on a plane this afternoon and comes back. That's absolutely possible. El Salvador is not going to say no. Right. But it's an ego question for this president who doesn't like to be told what to do and certainly doesn't like to backtrack from a, from a previous position. So now we're in the uncomfortable position, as I, that I alluded to before, the courts are eventually going to order that, that happen. And, you know, the MAGA folks are going to say, yeah, but these are, these are illegal, undocumented, illegal aliens. A lot of them are gang members. Fine, that, that may be true. In which case, we want them to hell out of the country or in a United States prison. Right. I mean, they never needed to be sent to El Salvador. You know, they could have been sent to their home countries. They could have been imprisoned here in the United States. But the point is that that's irrelevant who they are. You know, bad people are entitled to due process in this country. They, too. And the whole reason for that is that, you know, everybody is entitled to it and we don't know if somebody's bad until they've been through due process.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. And it does. It feels like now we're moving out of the intelligence space into kind of the PR and, like, the politics of all this, but it already feels like the attention is starting to wane. Right. And, like, there's so much crazy stuff happening in the world. Trump's doing so much crazy stuff. Like, what do you feel as an elected official, that it's going to be incumbent upon you guys, the Democrats, to use the power you have in the minority to continue to advocate on this? Or is this like, these guys are boned till 2029? What do you, what do you think?

[Jim Himes]

Yeah, look, I mean, you know, rule of law is not something that should be, you know, judged against whether the American people are focused or not on it. The fact is that it's important all the time. And, yeah, we're going to keep raising hell, but, you know, gosh, I'd love to imagine. I'd love to imagine that maybe some of my Republican colleagues might also say, hey, rule of law is important. Do we really want a precedent set where a president can just decide to arbitrarily restrict due process? I mean, I chuckle with my Republican opponents, you know, when President Bernie Sanders is in office, you know, are you guys going to love the fact that you created an imperial powers for the guy? So I'd love to say that maybe that would help, but I'm not holding my breath on it.

[Tim Miller]

Do you have. Do you ever get any serious replies to that question? So this is a real question. I mean, I've got a couple of people I'd like to send. El Salvador, you know, if Jim Himes is ever president again, I might have.

[Jim Himes]

A few folks you could run yourself and just let. Just let it happen. You know, look, there's a list of 300 questions that none of my Republican colleagues want to answer. Right. That's one of them. Tariffs is another one. Medicaid is another one. Because, you know, right now they know that to get up in the President's face is to probably bring around the end of their political career and that, you know, I'm a big believer that there's some things that you ought to be willing to sacrifice your political career about, including maybe the rule of law. But unfortunately, way too many of my Republican colleagues don't feel the same way.

[Tim Miller]

All right, last thing. On a separate topic, we had some news yesterday that we had yet another Super Hornet fighter jet on the Harry S. Truman aircraft get lost into the Red Sea, still called the Red Sea so far. We're renaming a lot of seas. We're not doing well for bringing prices down, but we're renaming a lot of bodies of water. So I don't know. With the Red Sea, we might. Might update that to something else. I don't know. The MAGA Red Sea, The Red Hat Sea, maybe we've lost. Is it two. Two jets we've lost in the sea there? Do you have any intel on what the hell is happening? Is the Secretary of Defense on this at all?

[Jim Himes]

You know, I don't have a good answer for you on that. You know, I'll sort of reserve judgment. I want to give our troops in the field a lot of latitude on how they operate, especially when they're engaged in. In hostilities as they are. But, yeah, this does raise some questions. Right. And again, I don't want to speculate too much, but, yeah, you know, I think of the United States Navy as being incredibly, incredibly competent. And to lose two very, very expensive fighters in a fairly short period of time does raise some questions.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. Two jets putting an Atlantic journalist on a. On a text chat. We're firing random people. Not a lot of w's on the board for Secretary Hegseth so far, several staffers writing op EDS about how he's terrible. Not a great resume so far.

[Jim Himes]

I just, you know, amongst many other things, I wish you would. He seems to delight mainly in trolling on social media. You know, and in a healthy society, the secretary of defense doesn't have a spare millisecond to troll people on social media. And by the way, no desire to do so either, because they're conscious of the fact that they have to be serious people to do the jobs that they have.

[Tim Miller]

Congressman Jim Himes, thanks for keeping us posted on everything going on in Intel World. I'm sure we'll be talking again soon.

[Jim Himes]

Thanks a lot. Take care.