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- [00:00]
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- [00:53]
Sarah Matthews
Hey everybody, it's Sarah Matthews here with the Bulwark, and I just got off Ms. Now with Nicole Wallace, where we covered plenty of topics. First off, we talked about Todd Blanche's nomination for Attorney General and how it remains in jeopardy because of that pesky little $1.8 billion slush fund that would reward January 6th insurrectionists that Trump wants. Trump said today that it was dead, but yet he also said that he wishes it weren't. And he also has gone on about how these insurrectionists were victims of government abuse and then went on to say that has actually been treated the worst in the history of America. Pretty absurd if you ask me. Then we got into who is actually the head of the ODNI right now. Is it Jay Clayton, who was confirmed by the Senate but has yet to be sworn in, or is it Bill Pulte, who's the acting dni? Both showed up to Trump's Cabinet meeting today, and if you ask me, both are just equally unqualified. So I don't know if it matters who's actually in charge right now. And lastly, we talked about Trump's cratering poll numbers and what that means for the upcoming elections and whether it will give Democrats the chance to retake the Senate.
- [01:59]
Joel Payne
Spokesperson for the Home of the Brave campaign, Sarah Matthews is here. Sarah, I have been quoting you. I hope your ears have been burning every day this week for being the person who said in your January6 testimony that Donald Trump, you heard him say, I can't believe I lost to this effing guy. I'VE quoted in the context of Jay Clayton not being able to utter the word w o n 1 when it comes to Joe Biden in 2020. But it reminds me of this, this phony impasse. This isn't an impasse. Donald Trump refuses to put the confirmation of Todd Blanche ahead of a slush fund for the insurrectionists and brought immunity for himself from the IRS.
- [02:38]
Sarah Matthews
Yeah, it's because he sees that the January 6th insurrectionists did nothing wrong. He actually likes that they were fighting for him. And just hearing him say that they're victims of government abuse and then him going on to say that he actually has been treated the worst in the history of this, not just historically inaccurate, it's downright offensive. Look, America has a long history of injustices. You look at things like the Trail of Tears, Japanese internment, slavery. I mean, the list goes on of things that we could look at where I'm pretty sure those Americans were treated a lot worse off. And I look at the treatment of the January 6th defendants specifically, and I think that they got the treatment they deserve because they were criminals. They defiled the Capitol. They brutally beat police officers. And so you know what? Those are the real victims in this instance where you look at the 140 police officers who were brutally beaten that day. But Donald Trump doesn't see it that way. And for a party that likes to claim that they back the blue in law enforcement, it's really annoying to see only Tillis and Cornyn being the ones sticking their necks out on this issue. So I will give them credit where credit's due, but shame on all of those other senators, particularly the ones who were in the Capitol that day, who aren't speaking up about this.
- [03:56]
Joel Payne
You know, Sarah, I wonder if you can weigh in. I mean, here's just some of the instances he did it today at a Cabinet meeting, but here are all the instances where he finds it important to defend again convicted felons. In a lot of instances, the violent insurrectionists on January 6th,
- [04:19]
Donald Trump (quoted)
those J6 warriors, they were warriors, but they were really more than anything else, they're victims of what happened. All they were doing is protesting rigged election. That's what they were doing. And then the police say, go in, go in, go in. They were treated like the worst criminals in history. And you know what they were there for? They were protesting the vote because they knew the election was rigged and they were protesting the vote. Some of those people went down to the Capitol, I said peacefully and patriotically, nothing done wrong at all. Nothing done wrong. We didn't have guns. The others had guns, but we didn't have guns. And when I say we, these are people that walked down. This was a tiny percentage of the overall, which nobody sees and nobody, nobody shows. But that was a day of love.
- [05:08]
Joel Payne
Sarah There are lots of public facing proof points of his decline, performatively, perhaps cognitively, I don't know. This feels like the inability to stop talking about an event, again, that took place on live television where it was his supporters who were beating the cops, where there was no love. Certainly that was obvious to anybody watching the crimes take place on live television. They also had their days in court. I mean, everyone that was convicted was convicted, not by Democrats, not by the Biden administration, not by Merrick Garland, but by juries made up of their peers. And the vast majority of them pleaded guilty to receive lighter sentences. Why do you think he can't stop talking about it?
- [05:56]
Sarah Matthews
You know, I, I think that Donald Trump has always been a broken man, but I do think that him losing the 2020 election fair and square to Joe Biden permanently broke his brain. I don't think he's ever been able to recover from that because he looked at someone like Joe Biden and thought, how could I lose to this guy? I mean, he called him, you know, a sleepy Joe. And then obviously it affected him because he's a narcissist. His ego won't allow him to see the facts for what they are, that there was no election fraud and that it Biden who was the winner of the 2020 election. And so he's been fixated on this topic and talking about the election, talking about the January six rioters, because he saw them as fighting for him when he felt like no one else was fighting for him. I was in the White House during that time, the post election, up until January 6, and there were advisers telling him he lost, that there was no evidence that everything he was trying in court was going to fail, and he refused to believe it. And when he stopped taking the advice of those people, he surrounded himself with enablers who told him what he wanted to hear. And I do think that if you tell yourself what you want to hear and surround yourself with sycophants like that, eventually you start to believe it yourself. I do think that, you know, he did slip privately and admit that he lost, but I think now so much time has passed that he actually thinks that he was wronged and he believes that he's the victim here. And you know what? I just, it makes me laugh when you have all these MAGA people who think that Trump is some alpha male. No, he's the weakest, most thin skinned baby of all time. I mean he can't accept the facts for what they are. And I think that the American people are not fixated on January six or the 2020 election. They have pushed that aside and move past it. You know what they are focused on? They want to be able to afford a home. They want lower health care costs. They want to be able to fill up their gas tank and not have to decide between doing that and putting food on the table for their families. Those are the kitchen table issues that they are focused on and they don't want to see him keep re litigating this and all it's going to do is hurt Republicans in the upcoming midterm elections if he keeps forcing January 6th and the 2020 election into the conversation.
- [08:11]
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- [09:48]
Joel Payne
if you can shed some light on how those, those two different, let's just call them different stripes on the goats of the different big cats running around a Donald Trump White House operate.
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Sarah Matthews
Yeah, I think there is something to be said about your point of these people know better and that almost makes them more dangerous. I think you have other people in the White House like I look at like a Stephen Miller. I think that he is just crazy. And so that is dangerous in a different kind of way. Right. But then you look at someone like a Todd Blanche, like a Jay Clayton. I think that the even like a Susie Wiles. I think that these people know better, but they are choosing to dig their heels in and sacrifice their integrity and debase themselves in order to gain access to power. And once you do that, you're just going to continue to dig your heels in because you know that there's no coming back. So you might as well just stay the course. And I think that someone like a Jay Clayton, as we've talked about, he repeatedly refused to acknowledge that Joe Biden won the 2020 election fair and square during his confirmation hearing. And that just shows you that he's going to be just as bad as a Bill Pulte in this role and he's an unqualified hack and that his only qualification is that he's willing to do Donald Trump's bidding and go after his perceived political enemies and do whatever Donald Trump wants, even if it's at the detriment of our own national security,
- [11:19]
Joel Payne
which is so alarming at any level of any agency, but deeply disturbing. And for all the Republicans and the handful of Democrats who voted for him, I'd love to know what they what they think he's going to do once he gets there, or what adversary will be afraid of him if he can't answer Democratic questioning at his confirmation hearing. Yes, Sarah, we were talking about the ritual humiliation of Republicans and men like Jay Clayton. I didn't think I'd see Trump humiliate his own base. And by calling affordability a hoax, by assuming they'll be with him for
- [11:59]
Donald Trump (quoted)
a
- [11:59]
Joel Payne
war of choice in Iran, for his complete indifference and disdain for people who say they're upset about the economy, is it seems like his effort to humiliate his own voters. What do you think is behind that?
- [12:13]
Sarah Matthews
Yeah, you know, what's really interesting about this is that Republicans spent years mocking the Biden administration for trying to Gaslight the American people and telling them that the economy was great when people were feeling the exact opposite. And they clearly learned nothing from this because this is exactly what the Trump administration is doing. They're trying to gaslight their voters and tell them everything's fine. Putting Kevin Hassett out there and having him go on the news and say that the economy is amazing. I mean, are you kidding me? And I look at the difference between what Biden was dealing with with versus what Trump is dealing with. The things that Biden was dealing with were things that were out of his control when it came to the economy. When it came to gas prices, you had the war with Ukraine and Russia that was causing gas prices to skyrocket. And you look at inflation, he was dealing with the ripple effects of COVID still during his presidency. Then I look at what Trump is dealing with in his second term and it's all self inflicted. The tariffs that he put in place that were completely asinine are what has caused inflation to stay where it's at and the cost of everything to continue to rise. And you look at gas prices, his war of choice with Iran has caused gas prices to skyrocket. So it's just amazing that they clearly have not learned the lessons of the previous administration and then are trying to tell their voters that everything's fine. And the thing is, I think that people do fancy feel bamboozled. They voted for President Trump because he said that he was going to lower prices on day one. He said that he was going to be the peace president. He said he was going to do all these things. And it turns out that he's done the exact opposite. And so it is just a slap in the face to the people that put him into office and that have supported him for them to continue to try to gaslight them.
- [13:57]
Joel Payne
51 is probably the most newsworthy number here. I think a lot of Democrats, Democrats were anxiously awaiting James Talarico to go over 50%. The latest round of polling has him at 51%. Sarah, let me importantly just point out that I misspoke earlier when I talked about some Democrats voting to confirm Jay Clayton. No Democrats voted to confirm Jay Clayton when he was nominated in the first Trump term. There were some, but not this time around. This solidarity though, among Democrats and the ability to sort of dust off primary dynamics very quickly and throw in behind the nominee seems to be a hallmark and something that's working for them very effectively. In Texas, specifically, where Talarico is going everywhere, he's generating a lot of crowds he's got all the retail political skills and he has. I don't want to say this in a. In a derisive way, but he sort of has a Republican skill set in terms of rapid response and swatting back the negative. Paxton has tried everything against him, I think, up to and including a bizarre attack on him being a vegan or something. And he seems pretty adept at wiping off all the smears.
- [15:10]
Sarah Matthews
Yeah, I think that Talarico being the nominee there, obviously going up against Ken Paxton is the ideal scenario, because, look, it would have been a much closer race and a much tougher race if Talarico is going up against John Cornyn. But Trump obviously shoots himself in the foot because the next, instead of thinking who has the best chance politically to win in a state like Texas, he could have endorsed John Cornyn. But no, he chose to endorse the crazy guy. He chose to endorse Ken Paxton, someone who has a long history of scandal. I mean, the guy was impeached by his own party and is as corrupt as they get. And so I think that the voters in Texas see someone like Talarico and they see authenticity. They see someone young, they see someone bringing new energy to the party, and that's exciting. Not just Democrats, but Independents as well. And the thing is that why this is troublesome for the Republican Party is now they have to pour money into a state like Texas because you could actually have a chance at Talarico winning that Senate seat there. And so the more money they're spending in Texas, the less money they're spending in other states where they desperately need it. And if you had asked me six months ago if I thought that Democrats could take control of the Senate, I probably would have said, I don't know. I think that that's too big of a hill for them. It's uphill battle. They're certainly going to take the House. I don't know about the Senate. Then you have something like Trump deciding to make the idiotic choice to launch an attack against Iran and get our. Get us into a war that he has no way to end now. And we're seeing the sentiment in the polling of how frustrated people are with his choice to go to war with Iran, with the concerns over the economy and him dismissing them, calling affordability a hoax, and so obviously now is giving Democrats this ability to actually gain momentum and have a chance to take control of the Senate as well. So I think that there's a really, a very real chance that we could see a senator of Talarico
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Joel Payne
Yeah, I mean, Talarico, Cooper and Ossoff are all incredibly strong candidates running very, very effective campaigns in. I take your point. What are traditionally tough states, but very much in reach. Joel Payne, Sarah Matthews, to be continued. Thank you so much for today. It's great to see you both.