A (2:52)

Yeah, I mean, these guys have been such an interesting phenomenon over the past few years because I totally agree, like, they sort of slide back and forth. Like sometimes they just seem like content creators, but sometimes they're on the ground trying to give out just actual reports of what's happening there. But then sometimes they're involved in these scuffles and these clashes. And so they're not exactly just like these third party observers. Like ideally you would be for a reporter. Maybe it's not their fault. Maybe they're trying to do that and they get sort of implicated in these things. So it's all a little messy, it's all a little unclear. The broader crackdown is, is interesting and we're going to need to go back and forth because we want to talk. The Nick Sortor stuff in particular was, was so amazing. But let's talk a little bit about just sort of like what Antifa is and like what, what is it that the White House is trying to do right now with basically saying there is such a group, such an organization as Antifa and we're going to root it out and get to the bottom of it. What's, what's going on there?

B (3:42)

Obviously we've been dealing with kind of this contemporary version of Antifa in our public discourse going back to 2016, 2017. But you know, of course it's short for anti fascist. And these are people who are often wearing all black and say are broadly open to using violence to achieve their ends and kind of like street scuffles. You know, to hear Jack Posobic tell it, Antifa has been at the White House. He said Antifa has been a problem going back to Weimar Germany. And you think, well, now what was. Were there fascists in Weimar Germany? That might have been a, that might have been. Might Antifa have been on the right side of that one. But, you know, look, they were a big problem for the brown shirts. President Trump, we've got to stop them. But basically like I think both in, you know, kind of 2017, 2018, when, you know, there would be these kind of riots after a conservative campus event or clashes with the proud boys in Portland. And then up to then 2020, of course the, the riots and the protests then, but now it sort of seems like they're. I just feel like the protests aren't really that big. You know, I, I very closely scrutinized the video around the Portland ICE facility and it's like a few dozen protesters. And you can tell the White House really like they really want kind of like 2020 levels of respons as a result, they, they're bringing out these people like Jack Posobec, like Nick Sortor. And the other thing I would say is our colleague Adrian Carrasquillo got into this in his newsletter, Huddled Masses this week. But there's this real weird way in which DHS and ICE really work hand in glove with these influencers. And so they'll put them on the roof of the ICE building in Portland where they can kind of taunt the protesters, maybe rile them up. At one point, I think it was Nick Sort or maybe someone else was like threatened by an antifa guy and all of a sudden there was like a red sniper dot on the antifa guy's shirt. I mean, you know, I've been threatened to protest as a journalist. I haven't had DHS snipers, you know, closely monitoring anyone who's rude to me and aiming as like a sniper rifle at them. So you can see in the way that I'd say the government is also really emboldening these guys. And then of course the government is quite happy to then publicize any footage of clashes that that inspires.

A (5:45)

Yeah, I do think it's important to have like a little nuance on some of this stuff. Right. Because like on the one hand, you know, anti fascism, super for it, you know, like fascism is bad. I feel like we're somewhat anti fascist here here at the Bulwark at the, you know, these groups have frequently, I mean, I would say overwhelmingly when you have seen like antifa at protests over the last five or 10 years, it has been people who are there who are like just up to no good. Right. I mean, they're there to kind of crack heads. The whole like black bloc sort of agitator thing is real. Those are people who have done that kind of stuff in the past. I've been at protests where I felt sort of hostility radiating off of those people against me myself as who's just there as sort of a journalist observing. So I don't have any brief with any of that. I think that the more sinister thing that we are seeing at the White House right now is this attempt to. First of all, they want it to be the case that like all of these protesters, they are tarring with that brush. Right? I mean like. And you got into that a little bit just yesterday, right? I mean like that they. First of all they want to say anybody who is basically out protesting against ICE or protesting against these troops in the cities basically counts. You know, like these are basically antifa people. They secondarily, you know, want to wanna. I mean Pam, Bonnie was talking about this yesterday. They don't wanna just arrest people in the streets. They wanna go after, you know, the institution of antifa, which is, which is largely fictional. I mean it's what you're talking about when you're talking about antifa is a group of basically decentralized people in all these different cities who share some tactics, who share some iconography, but who don't have like, there's no like, you know, national registry. You don't pay dues, you know.

B (7:30)

Yeah, I mean there's a lot of talk about where, where's the funding coming from, who could, who's got to be behind this. But you look, it's like it doesn't take some funding for someone to punch someone. I mean it's not like these people are using these, they don't have like artillery or anything. So I mean, you know. Yeah, to your point, I mean I think a lot of these quote unquote clashes we're seeing particularly in Portland are not so much antifa but almost this, this like very weird sort of agitation being carried out by some of these right wing personalities. That doesn't mean they should be hit. But in the case of Nick Sortor, for examp, this is a guy who is sort of his claim to fame, such as it was. And this guy is like kind of affiliated with Turning Point usa. That's his background. He filled in for Charlie Kirk on his show. And so he goes to Portland and basically he sees a protester at the ICE facility burning a flag. So he runs in and grabs the flag and rescues the flag. And now the flag is going to become our weeks long arc with Nick Sortor. And so he marches around with the famous flag that he stole.

A (8:27)

And this actually happened on video. Right. So let's, let's real quick. I mean we can, we can just play this clip. Like let's Just see this happen of Nick Sortor grabbing this flag. Oh, he's putting it on the ground.

B (8:43)

And he's making it worse.

A (8:47)

Now he's standing on it. Not supposed to stand on it.

B (8:52)

Now he thinks he's saving anything.

A (8:54)

Yeah. So that's. So go. Go ahead, Will. I mean, that's just the moment at which he kind of becomes the man of the hour.

B (9:00)

Exactly. And so then this becomes this he at the White House. He says, here, here's the flag I rescued. And Trump says, you know, we should prosecute that person who was burning that flag.

A (9:09)

Yeah, let's just. Let's just play that clip to you real quick here.

B (9:11)

Years now. So, thank you guys so much for taking this seriously. And President Trump, you mentioned that flag. So remember, you put out a truth right after I.

A (9:23)

That's right.

B (9:24)

I took this flag from that. From that man that was burning it in the street.

A (9:29)

Do you know who he is?

B (9:30)

Oh, yeah, I know exactly who it is.

A (9:31)

So why don't you give it to Pam, give it to the attorney general, and let's start prosecutions.

B (9:37)

Yeah. I actually have a second flag that he tried to burn as well. So I have two of them from the same guy.

A (9:42)

So what happened when that flag started burning? Everyone went crazy. And that's when it started, when they started burning the flag. So thank you. If you could give the information, it would be great.

B (9:51)

Absolutely.

A (9:51)

And at least that horrible night made you famous. He was already.

B (9:57)

I got a text from the President of the United States. So I appreciate that. Since then, he's been kind of marching around the protesters with the flag, but he'll also do things that I. I mean, look, none of this is journalistic in any way. I mean, when I go to an event, I don't say, hey, you're mistreating that, that, you know, that flag, I'm going to rescue that, and then kind of taunt you with it. And then, I mean, in his case, he also has made a big deal about. Well, they won't, you know, I want to walk through a group of protesters on the sidewalk. And so he'll kind of bluntly, you know, kind of put the elbows up and kind of blunder through them. And that sort of creates these clashes because then people are like, why is this guy kind of like, throwing himself through our group here? And you associated with him have been arrested for kind of getting in these scuffles? And so, you know, you can see that really, there's not a lot of journalism, such as it is going on.

A (10:40)

Yeah, I Want to put kind of a fine point on this, this Nick Sortor story specifically because we just showed what actually happened. We showed, you know, him whipping the flag out as sort of a trophy of war at the White House and Trump, Trump being like, yeah, you know, tell us who, tell us who was burning that flag, we'll go prosecute them. I mean, I think this kind of just is really at the heart of why all of this is, is and should be concerning to us. Right. I mean, that, that if you're talking about Antifa, like when, when they talk about Antifa as a domestic terrorist organization, they are trading on this popular conception of, you know, people who are in the streets, you know, indiscriminately committing violence and, you know, sowing mayhem. And to the extent that people are in the streets indiscriminately committing violence and sowing mayhem, I think everybody would agree, like it's okay for law enforcement to, you know, prevent that and arrest people who are doing that, who are committing crimes. But you look at that video, I mean, you watch that video right there, what you see is a guy who is not dressed in antifa gear, not dressed like a black block agitator, basically just looks kind of like a aging Portland hippie who is just standing there burning an American flag, which is constitutionally protected First Amendment covered speech. I mean, this is open and shut stuff according to what the Supreme Court has ruled on these issues. And then you see Nick Sortor come in from out of frame, snatch it, put it it out, carry it off. He still has it. He has burglarized this poor guy's flag and carried it to the White House and sort of displayed it as a trophy of war. And without any kind of friction or anything like that, Donald Trump is immediately like, okay, so that guy was antifa, obviously, because if he weren't antifa, he wouldn't have been burning a flag. Tell us who that was so we can go prosecute him. And that is all you need to see the ways in which this thing is being, you know, if there's like a crack in the door to be able to prosecute people who are actually doing, you know, bad wrong crimes, they are using that now to much more broadly crack down on any sort of like disfavored political speech or protesting in general. And I think that's what we're seeing here.

B (12:47)

Yeah, I mean, you know, at the White House we also saw the influencers asking Trump please designate Antifa as also a foreign terrorist organization. Cuz they're bugging our far right friends in Europe, too. And Trump said, well, you know, maybe that sounds like a great idea. So really, I mean, this whole event was about having these people come in and just beg Trump to do something I mean, he no doubt would love to do anyway.

A (13:09)

Yeah, yeah. And the way the extent to which they are just sort of like producing this theatrical production, like they're all cosplaying as though this is a normal sort of like counterterrorist tactical crackdown where like, you get, you know, certain members of the, of the organization and then they can turn on other people in their organization. Pam Bondi said something yesterday about how they had the wife of the founder of Antifa in custody. I mean, just like, that's just like something she said kind of in passing, like, as though, again, as though this were an organization, a structure, like a thing. A thing where like, they, they have meetings and they know one another. And like, a lot of these are like that. People put up flyers and they say, hey, the Antifa thing's gonna happen at such and such a time. Show up wearing black, you know, like. And that' extent of the actual organizing. Right. So it's just, again, it's using the tactics of our ordinary, highly militarized ability to deal with and crack down on actual terror cells abroad and use these massive financial tools and all these sorts of things to crack down on these groups now being deployed against this very nebulous target. That basically amounts, in the words of Trump and in his telling to people who are out in the streets unhappy with what ICE and National Guardsmen are doing.

B (14:35)

Yeah, I mean, you can see there really is obviously this attempt to find some pretext. I mean, I was struck when Benny Johnson went with Christy Noem to the famous roof of ICE Portland and looked down and he said, kristi Noem is staring down this man in an inflatable chicken costume. I mean, it's like, read that back to yourselves again, fellas. You know, I mean, clearly there is really not that significant of a threat as they're describing it, but they're just really desperate to have some kind of big, big crackdown.

A (15:04)

Yeah, yeah. I mean, if we're obviously, you know, nobody's taking protest directions from, from me, but if I were, if I were to rank, you know, effective versus ineffective protests against what's going on right now, I would consider, you know, committing acts of street violence to be very far down the list of actually effective protests and wearing a giant inflatable costume and just sort of like dancing around these military police. That seems a lot more effective to me. I mean, the footage that is coming out of some of this stuff has been. Has been unbelievable. But nobody cares about this.

B (15:34)

It's really clever. I mean, it does demonstrate. I mean, obviously people in giant frog costumes or chicken costumes or bananas can't, like, physically engage really, in violence. And so I think it's demonstrating how ridiculous this is.

A (15:45)

Right, right, right. Okay. I think we can leave it there. I mean, it's so hard to talk about this stuff because it is so serious and it is so silly and it's all, like, wrapped up together. Right. And so it's hard to know how. How lightly to treat it, how much to mock it, how much to kind of, like, just dwell on the alarm. I guess we'll probably keep doing both and there'll be plenty of opportunities to do that in the. In the weeks ahead because they are not slowing down. This is all just getting rolled out. Rolled out now. So thanks, Will, for coming on and talking a little bit about it. We'll keep covering it. Thanks to you all out there for watching. I hope you will subscribe to the channel, head to the bulwark.com, read our stuff, send it to your family, send it to your friends, send it to your black block agitator acquaintances and your maga ones alike, because we're a big tent here at the Bulwark. So thanks, and we'll see you all next time.