Tucker Carlson Thinks MAGA Is Ready to Dump Trump

Summary

Bulwark Takes – August 7, 2026

Episode: Tucker Carlson Thinks MAGA Is Ready to Dump Trump
Panel: JVL (host), Andrew Egger, Will Sommer

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Episode Overview

This episode of Bulwark Takes dives into Tucker Carlson’s high-profile monologue, dissecting its significance as a possible precursor to a presidential run and exploring whether Carlson's attempt to refashion MAGA around his own set of ideas could spell the end of Trump’s grip on the movement. The panel weighs the effectiveness, intent, and reach of Carlson’s rhetoric, how it fits into ongoing right-wing infighting, and whether a post-Trump MAGA movement could consolidate under another charismatic personality.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Tucker’s Ten Theses: Presidential Draft or Manifesto?

• [01:30–03:23]
  Tucker Carlson has released a major monologue, outlining “10 theses for what America should be”—widely viewed as a near-presidential announcement draft. Carlson's emphasis includes:
  • Fairness and Decency: Positioning himself as the voice for those who feel the U.S. is on the wrong path.
  • Broad Umbrella Appeal: Attempting to unify disparate right-wing grievances (from birthrate concerns to elite corruption).

"It's really kind of like the planks…America should be optimistic...he’s positioning himself as kind of like the voice for people who think the country's fucked up and then it's all wrong."
– JVL [02:33]

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2. The Challenge of Ideology in Trumpism

• [03:23–06:56]
  • Trump’s appeal has always been personality-driven, lacking a true ideological core.
  • Attempts to build durable right-wing coalitions around policies have failed because Trump's base thrives on grievances instead of substance.
  • Tucker’s effort is more coherent than others, especially as he’s willing to critique Trump’s failures, particularly on foreign policy and corruption.

“Trump has made it kind of easy for people who have specific discontents with him...this is a more coherent attempt to do that than most.”
– Will Sommer [03:23]

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3. Carlson’s Rhetorical Sleight of Hand

• [02:03–05:37]
  • Carlson links disparate grievances—using rhetorical tricks to tie issues like Jeffrey Epstein’s impunity to affirmative action and elite hiring practices.
  • "Fairness" becomes code for targeting out-groups and naming “bad guys” as the root of MAGA energy, rather than providing genuine solutions.

“Fairness to me is code...for hating the out group, right?...they just need bad guys.”
– JVL [08:50]

"He makes some really good points and then every sixth thing he says is the craziest thing you ever heard...slipstreaming off of the aura of reasonability..."
– Will Sommer [23:24]

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4. The Schism: How Big Is the MAGA Splinter?

• [09:44–11:37]
  • There’s a population (sizeable but difficult to quantify) on the right that’s disaffected with Trump—mainly over corruption and foreign policy.
  • With Trump’s approval sagging, figures like Tucker see a potential opening for the post-Trump right.

“Trump has pretty low approval ratings right now...even some Republicans are unhappy with him. Again, though, it is hard to know like how many really Trump voters like care about...the rampant corruption.”
– Andrew Egger [10:14]

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5. Will the Right Media Follow Tucker?

• [11:37–12:39]
  • Mainstream right-wing media (e.g., Wall Street Journal, Ben Shapiro) are likely to resist or attack Carlson’s break from Trump.
  • “Fameballs” with large social media followings and less ideological purity (Megan Kelly, Hodge Twins) may support him, depending on his perceived winnability.

“He had a foot in both camps...but ever since the war in Iran, he’s become much more Trump critical...if he did run, the vast majority of these kind of house organs of the right would, would be really opposed.”
– Andrew Egger [11:37]

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6. The J.D. Vance Factor and 2028’s Uncertain Lines

• [13:40–15:12]
  • J.D. Vance is perceived as the 2028 frontrunner but lacks a clear faction, having ties to various GOP wings (Silicon Valley/Thiel, blue-collar populists, Catholic integralists).
  • The scramble for a post-Trump right is real, with Tucker potentially positioning himself as a rallying figure for MAGA “dissidents.”

“Nobody really knows whose faction he’s carrying the banner first for because he has worn so many hats...it just creates this whole huge, strange scramble.”
– Will Sommer [14:13]

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7. Is Tucker a Candidate—or Kingmaker?

• [15:12–16:27]
  • Some view Tucker’s moves as strategic posturing to increase bargaining power rather than a genuine White House run—perhaps aiming for cabinet-level influence or policy direction.

“It may be that he’s just kind of looking for the RFK Jr. deal…prep a presidential run, gain more leverage, then get to direct some sort of US divorce from Israel…”
– Andrew Egger [16:10]

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8. The Trump Family’s Endgame

• [17:31–20:34]
  • JVL posits that controlling the GOP, not necessarily winning the presidency, is the Trump family’s golden goose. Thus, Don Jr. or another Trump could run primarily to maintain revenue streams and influence.

“If you control the Republican Party…you can continue to extract rents…from foreign governments, from people inside the United States…why wouldn’t they pick up this money?”
– JVL [19:34]

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9. Tucker vs. Don Jr. Showdown: Likelihood and Appeal

• [20:34–24:39]
  • Both Carlson and Don Jr. have large followings, but are likely too close personally to run against each other.
  • Their combined charisma threatens to overshadow figures like J.D. Vance; friendship and mutual benefit probably ensure only one would run.

“If one of them runs, the other doesn’t…the guy who loses, that is finished.”
– JVL [20:48]

“Tucker is really, really, really good at this. He is one of the best talkers I have ever met…my respect for what he is able to do just as a talker is very, very significant.”
– JVL [21:31]

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10. The Secret Sauce: Tucker’s Cross-Appeal and Candace Owens Comparison

• [25:48–27:03]
  • Tucker, like Candace Owens, excels in blending pop cultural commentary with political grievance, drawing in audiences who don’t normally engage with policy talk.
  • His personal brand (spanning pop culture and politics, “Dancing with the Stars” to news anchor) mirrors Trump’s long-standing fame.

“He’s not talking about, like, tax cuts or whatever. He’s talking about...this sense in your heart that something is wrong with America…”
– Andrew Egger [26:15]

"She got really into the Blake Lively–Justin Baldoni lawsuit...but that was kind of how she reached a broader audience."
– Andrew Egger [26:15]

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11. The Broader Landscape: “True MAGA Has Never Been Tried”

• [27:12–end]
  • The panel closes by pondering the cyclical nature of right-wing grievance—no matter who’s in charge, the refrain will always be: “true MAGA has never been tried.”
  • Disavowal of responsibility for America’s ills will likely persist even under continued GOP rule.

“Two years from now, the question of who's been in power for most of the last decade is going to become absolutely mysterious...True MAGA has never been tried. That's where we're headed.”
– JVL [27:12]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Tucker’s potential:
  “Tucker is a very charismatic guy. He has a gigantic online following...Why might it not work for me?”
  – Will Sommer [05:37]

• On Trump’s lack of ideology:
  “Part of Trump's success is that there isn't really an ideological project there...trying to rigidly hold to any one thing, that's how you risk losing people.”
  – JVL [05:54]

• On fairness as a theme:
  “So long as there is a boogeyman to go after, that's all Republican voters need...they just need bad guys.”
  – JVL [08:50]

• On political talent:
  “As a political talent, as a speaker, as a guy who could coalesce a cult of personality...I am not selling short on Tucker at all.”
  – Will Sommer [24:39]

• On Candace Owens and cross-audience appeal:
  “She got really into the Blake Lively–Justin Baldoni lawsuit...and so people who wouldn't tune in to hear Ben Shapiro rant...he's reaching people who wouldn't normally hear Republican talking points.”
  – Andrew Egger [26:15]

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Key Timestamps

• [01:30] – Start of Tucker Carlson discussion
• [02:03] – Clip from Tucker’s monologue and Epstein example
• [03:23] – Analysis of Tucker's speech as a potential campaign platform
• [05:54] – The challenge of building MAGA as ideology
• [08:50] – “Fairness” as MAGA's motivating theme
• [10:14] – Republican dissatisfaction with Trump
• [11:37] – Right-wing media’s likely response to a Tucker run
• [14:13] – J.D. Vance’s ambiguous alliances
• [16:10] – Is Tucker seeking leverage, not the presidency?
• [19:34] – Trump family’s incentive to protect the party’s leadership
• [21:31] – Tucker's formidable skills as a communicator
• [26:15] – Candace Owens' pop-culture strategy and Tucker’s similarities
• [27:12] – “True MAGA has never been tried” as the enduring right-wing excuse

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Summary Takeaway

The Bulwark panel sees Tucker Carlson’s “ten theses” as both a possible pivot towards presidential politics and an explicit move to wrest the MAGA movement away from Trump’s personal brand. Carlson’s appeal lies in mixing familiar grievances with populist rhetoric and wide-ranging media savvy, but doubts linger about whether a genuine ideological movement or merely a new cult of personality can outlast Trump. Ultimately, as the panel underscores, perpetual grievance and outsider-status are the defining, and maybe self-defeating, heart of MAGA—regardless of who holds the banner.

Transcript

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[JVL]

Hello, everyone. Tucker Carlson is maybe running for president. I'm Ron Burgundy. This is JVL here with very good friends Andrew Egger and Will Sommer of the Bulwark. And we're going to break down what is happening with Tucker Carlson because he just uncorked a gigantic monologue in which he outlined 10 ideas, 10 theses for what America should be in advance of. I don't know, a political project. Before we go, let's just listen to Tucker talk for a minute.

[Will Sommer]

Fairness is the root of almost all of our frustrations. Why is Jeffrey Epstein so infuriating? Why is that story capable of enraging an entire population? Well, of course, are the crimes or the suspected crimes sex creep? Possibly a kid toucher, clearly involved with Mossad and who knows whether foreign intel agency.

[JVL]

So, yeah, the problem with the Jeffrey Epstein thing is fairness. I don't know, boys. Who wants to go first with this pinata?

[Andrew Egger]

Maybe I can kind of set the table here. I know Andrew has a great point to make about this clip. In particular, the. Yeah, so basically, I think this. This was kind of a much hyped speech. There was this. This came after his meeting with Thomas Massie and Marjorie Taylor Greene and Joe Kent, these kind of Trump world discontents. And there's a sense of, like, what was his speech going to be? And I think, as you said, I mean, I think it looks like kind of like a draft of a presidential announcement. You know, it's really kind of like the planks, this idea of he has 10 things and it's, America should be optimistic. But really that means it's kind of like a thing about the birth rate. And there's all these. These kind of broad themes he has, like fairness and decency. He's positioning himself as kind of like the. The. The voice for people who think the country's fucked up and then it's all wrong. And so. And I think that's a very broad umbrella that I think could pull a lot of people in.

[Will Sommer]

Andrew. There's been a lot of efforts over the years to take what Trump has done to our politics and build these new coalitions and try to put some, you know, real ideological bones on it, because Donald Trump is not an ideologue. Donald Trump's cult of personality has been the driving force in politics for all of this time. This is, I would say, a more coherent attempt to do that than most. Trump has made it kind of easy for people who have specific discontents with him related to foreign policy and personal corruption to have this exit ramp. I mean, it's added a lot of rocket fuel to this. In this video, Tucker goes on kind of at length about. He doesn't, he doesn't frequently bring up Donald Trump, but he does not do this thing Republicans do where they shy away from talking about him. He kind of castigates the current set of leaders that we have, and that includes the president, as basically failures to deliver on the kind of politics that they have that they have been promising all along. And that has been such an animating force of why a lot of people who like Tucker also liked Donald Trump. Now, it's a little hard to parse because Tucker is an extremely slippery character himself. You know, a lot of this is. Is more, you know, nice sounding things strung together with. Now, of course, everybody agrees this or everybody, nobody would dispute that. And a lot of rhetorical dressing for concepts that might not have a Whole lot to do with each other. Like, for instance, he ties the Epstein class stuff, the idea that there is special treatment for some people under the justice system to, like, the fact that there are admissions departments at colleges and hiring departments at companies that make decisions that sometimes are influenced by who you know, and things like that, you know, like, those are not necessarily actually part of the same political project that call for, like, anything close to the same sorts of solutions, but he ties them together through. Through some, like, rhetorical tricks.

[JVL]

The real problem with Jeffrey Epstein is that Jews get into Ivy League schools.

[Will Sommer]

Yeah, I mean, that. That kind of thing. And so it's. It's hard to know, really.

[JVL]

That's basically the complaint.

[Will Sommer]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Lisa]

So.

[Will Sommer]

So you could. You could kind of make the argument that this is just sort of trying to sub out one cult of personality for another. But it's. I mean, there's an appeal to this sort of thing. Tucker is a very charismatic guy. He has a gigantic online following. So I can see why he might think to himself, well, you know, it works for Donald Trump. Why might it not work for me?

[JVL]

So I have a lot of questions, the first of which is, is it a fool's errand to try to build an ideological framework around Trumpism? Because one thesis I have, I'm not convinced of this is that part of Trump's success is that there isn't really an ideological project there. It's just whatever. Trump has a cult around him, and whatever he says on one day is what the cult believes, and if he says the opposite on the next day, the cult believes that too. And if he were to try to, like, rigidly hold to any one thing, that's how you risk losing people. And so I think it's just sort of inherently more unstable to try to build your movement around ideas in that way. You guys have thoughts on this? Is this. Yes. No. Maybe.

[Will Sommer]

Yes. That has been basically fair analysis of most of the Trump moment. He has been a total chameleon on a lot of stuff that. That seemed like it was, you know, the. The preexisting rules of the road for the two parties and things like that.

[Lisa]

He.

[Will Sommer]

He dined out on that for a long time. He was a lot of things to a lot of people. I think one way in which Trump has left a real opening for a guy to make these specific. Prosecute, these specific ideological points against him, if it is in fact true that that Tucker is going to basically try to launch over of the Republican Party. And again, it's not necessarily clear that that's what's happening. But Trump has left these two giant openings on specifically foreign policy just because he has betrayed what he himself was running on before and gotten us involved in yet another one of these intractable forever war type conflicts in the Middle East. That is one of the things that has so enraged people like Tucker and so enraged people like Marjorie Taylor Greene. Obviously, Tucker very famously tried very hard in private to stave off this war in the days leading up to it, went to the White House to try to talk the President out of it. But not just that. I mean, the personal corruption element of it as well is, I think, another, another place where, where Tucker and these guys will be able to pin the President to the wall. Because it's just a, it's just a place where Trump has been so lazy, he's gotten away with so much for so long with zero accountability, zero caring from his base. But all that it has really, all that it would really take is, is for a person to come along and make this sort of case from the right that, you know, all that Trump is proving is that he really is kind of part of this same Epstein class that they hate in every other facet of their lives. And that, that is, you know, so obviously visible in his conduct over and over again with the ways that he has enriched himself and rendered himself beyond prosecution and immunized himself from normal government scrutiny, all these sorts of things. A lot of that is implicit in Tucker's talk of fake fairness. And that's the fairness is the very first point in this 10 part plan that he goes on and on about. So I think it's a real opening.

[JVL]

So will, fairness to me is code

[Ryan Reynolds]

for

[JVL]

hating the out group, right? I mean, centering your campaign around fairness as opposed to like prosperity or something. What that if it's fairness, it means that you think things are unfair, which means there's somebody out there getting the good stuff. And that is, I think, the beating heart of maga. And so I think so long as there is a boogeyman to go after, that's all Republican voters need. They don't need solutions. They don't need like, you know, actual policies. They just need bad guys. My question for you is how big is this little splinter to the end? We're going to talk about whether or not it's a real splinter or a stalking horse in a minute. But how big is this splinter like out there, do you think?

[Andrew Egger]

You know, I think it's sizable. But I do think the point you make about, you know, how much Are there really that many voters who voted for Trump who are upset that he's now corrupt or that he went to war with Iran, or did they love him because of his personality and because he infuriated liberals and punished their enemies, whoever they perceive that to be? You know, on the other hand, I do think Trump obviously probably won't be on the ballot in 2028. You know, and the, I mean, is it going to be Don Jr. You're

[JVL]

going to take that should get odds.

[Andrew Egger]

Well, yeah, I mean, you know, I left it open probably, you know, probably won't be. And so I think possibly that's where Tucker sees his opening. And I mean, this could take a lot of forms. Maybe he runs, maybe Joe Kent's gonna run, you know, who knows? But I think there is, I mean, look, Trump has pretty low approval ratings right now, so even some Republicans are unhappy with him. Again, though, it is hard to know like how many really Trump voters like care about, you know, just the rampant corruption and how much Tucker could capitalize on something like that or about Trump support for data centers, all these kind of populous things that in this speech he really sort of positions himself as the champion of.

[JVL]

Do you think there's a leap pushback to this? Because I. So we have a tweet here from Nick Fuentes. Tucker will inevitably go all in on supporting JD Vance for 2028 and will run cover for him when he is attacked over Palantir Thiel Iran and everything else. When he postures as A fed up MAGA dissident, remember that he will support the PayPal mafia backed GOP nominee. Like, you know, out there on the really far out. People like Nick Fuentes are skeptical are like the, it's the Wall Street Journal editorial page, the Mark Thiessens of the world. Like, where's Megan Kelly going to be on this? Where, you know, I think we know where Candace would be but like where would Ben Shapiro be on this? And is, is all of it really just about Israel?

[Andrew Egger]

You know, I do think it's certainly a bulk of right wing media, sort of these traditional, whether it's kind of conservatives who made accommodations with Trump or so the typical Trumpian media, you know, Wall Street Journal, Ben Shapiro, they would be really against Tucker run or I mean I think even just in the past few months, he's really, ever since the war started, he, before that he was kind of, he had a foot in both camps. Like he could appear at Turning Point USA and yet he could pal around with Nick Fuentes and the Heritage foundation loved him and he kind of straddled these worlds. But ever since the war in Iran, he's become much more Trump critical. He said he was the Antichrist, all this stuff. And so like I think you would expect that if he did run, I think the vast majority of these kind of house organs of the right would, would be really opposed to him. On the other hand, someone like Megan Kelly, these random kind of fame balls, the Hodge twins, you know, all these people with like large social media followings, I think they'd probably support him. I mean it would depend if he looks like a loser. I mean, I think a lot of that, you know, is break down based on just who's going to win, who's good content. But you know, I, I think they'd be on board.

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[Will Sommer]

Can I, can I make one point on that too? Which is that it's hard to overstate if you're not like following along with a lot of these people. Right now, the lines of what 2028 is going to look like are so scrambled, people don't really know quite how to weigh in on the right. And in part that's because the Presumptive front runner, J.D. vance, is a Guy who nobody actually understands who he's really allied with politically. Nobody really knows whose faction he's carrying the banner first for because he has worn so many hats, you know, he has come.

[JVL]

JD doesn't know either, right?

[Will Sommer]

Yeah. He's come up as a Peter Thiel protege in the PayPal mafia and done the whole Yale Law School and finance thing. And he's been a proponent of blue collar America with the hillbilly elegy stuff. And he's been a guy who pals around with Catholic integralists. And he has taken stances at various points as though he is going to be each of these people's champion. And if he actually were each of these people's champion, he'd be better of a champion than probably even Tucker. Just because he would have the likely endorsement of the President. He comes in as the front runner. You don't need to go looking for somebody else if he's going to be your guy. But none of them know. And because none of them know, it just creates this whole huge, strange scramble where nobody knows who. Who's going to be. Who's going to need somebody else, who's going to be on the out group. And I think it's smart for a guy like Tucker at least to be dangling his own name, you know, for, for a number of different possible, you know, MAGA dissident groups to potentially attach to if they end up needing somebody else later.

[JVL]

Couple questions for you boys. First off, I think Fuentes is probably right that this does feel to me like, I mean, Tucker has been close with J.D. vance for a long time. He. Where was he that he gave like a little footsie interview where he was asked, you know, are you really mad with JD Are you talking to him still? And Tucker was like, oh, you know, and sure looked like he was ready to alibi J.D. vance. And so who knows, maybe this really is sort of an OP in that way where he is drawing these lines so that when he runs cover for JD in, you know, a year and a half, it. It carries more weight because he's not making excuses for J.D. but he's saying, hey, MAGA people, J.D. was always one of us, and it was just Trump who did this to him. And ba da, da, da. Where are you guys on that? Does that sound plausible or implausible to you?

[Andrew Egger]

I mean, it may be that he's just kind of looking for the RFK Jr. Deal, you know, where by kind of prepping this presidential run, you gain more leverage and then you get to be, I Don't know if he wants to be Secretary of State or like to sort of direct some sort of US Divorce from Israel, something like that, rather than really like a serious run for the White House.

[Will Sommer]

I think JD As a viable political vehicle does rise or fall with how popular and effective Trump remains until the end of the term. And so, you know, Tucker palling around with JD Vance four or five months ago is very different from what we're seeing, you know, today. I mean, I have a hard time imagining that you would see any of this effort at all, any of this pretty strident criticism, even if, even if not by name, even if he just calls him the President of the United States. I mean, this is not stuff. You see if Donald Trump is still at 43% approval instead of 33% approval. Right. And I think a lot of that goes for JD Too. I mean, JD advance in a world where, you know, two years from now looks a lot like right now he's basically the, the Kamala Harris of that, of that race, he's gonna, he's gonna have to try and will probably struggle to get out from Trump's shadow. And, and if, if Trump remains quite unpopular even among his own base, as crazy as that is, as that is to say now, I mean, Tucker. You think Tucker Carlson's gonna have, like, personal loyalty to him where he's gonna help him patch that hole and like, help him make up that ground? That, that is a little bit hard for me to believe.

[JVL]

All right. And that leads me to my second question. Indulge me. My theory is that J.D. vance is only viable as a presidential candidate to the extent that he is able to keep Tucker and Don Jr. From running. Because if either of those guys runs, JD gets smoked in any Republican primary. Discuss.

[Andrew Egger]

It's a bold idea, right? I mean, I think there's, it's interesting. I mean, I feel like Tucker wants it though. You know, I, I know you're just saying that he'll make nice with JD But, I mean, I think he's got a huge ego and I think he's saying, you know, why shouldn't it be me? Why shouldn't I run? You know, I'm, I'm, you know, been famous for longer than J.D. vance and, you know, in a head

[JVL]

to head context, who would you pick to win the Republican nomination?

[Andrew Egger]

I think JD Vance would just have so many internal advantages like with the party and, But I, I don't know. Gosh, I wish John Jr. Would run, though. That would be, that would be something

[Will Sommer]

to say it's interesting because jbl, you and I did a video on this and I can't remember how long ago it was where you kind of laid out your case that a guy like Don Jr would smoke. JD I remember finding it compelling at the time, but I don't remember whether that was like, like how far back that was where Trump was at, popularity wise. Because right now, sitting here this minute, like Trump has just lost so much juice. Like, the number of Americans who enthusiastically, strongly back him as president has become so small. There are still a lot of people who are pulling the lever for him. You know, when they talk to pollsters and things like that, you're like, no, yeah, no, I support the president, but it's just nothing like it's been at any point up until now in the whole Trump show for a whole decade. And I just, I don't know if two years from now it's just more and more and more of this and he just does look like a failed president who can't point to anything that he's done except sort of make up nonsense about a golden age of America that nobody feels and yell about communists then. It's just hard for me to imagine that there's that much leftover momentum for a guy like Don Jr. To carry forward. But maybe, maybe I'm wrong to win

[JVL]

a Republican bar primary, I mean, for

[Will Sommer]

that decision, for that.

[JVL]

And, and further, again, just from the Trump family's position, whether or not they win the general election is unimportant or is less important than controlling the Republican Party. Because if you control the Republican Party, meaning that you have a 50, 50 chance to be president every four years, then you can continuing to extract rents all across the spectrum from foreign governments, from, you know, people inside the United States, right? This is how you keep the gravy train rolling in. The minute you pass the baton to somebody else like that all stops. All those, you know, the Saudis giving you $2 billion for your hedge fund that goes away once you are no longer the family that has a 50, 50 shot to be president. And so this is why, I mean, I just look at the, the Trump family and I think, well, when is the last time they passed up money, right? Like, if there's money on the table, they're going to pick it up. And so why wouldn't they pick up this money?

[Will Sommer]

Can I ask you a question? Jbl?

[JVL]

Sure.

[Will Sommer]

This, this seems very improbable because as far as I know, Tucker and Don Jr remain pretty close personally. But how would you handicap A contest between those two guys, if we were to get one. I think that's an interesting question.

[JVL]

So that I think is the most interesting thing. And the answer is I don't think that they would both do it. I think one, one of them would run. If one of them runs, the other doesn't. For, I mean, the stakes of them running against each other become so huge. Right. Because then, I mean, the guy who loses, that is finished. And so I, you know, and plus, they seem close and I'm, you know, I'm sure they're relatively close together ideologically to the extent that Don Jr. Has any, any, any, any ideals that he really holds to. And so I just, you know, I, I think that is the kind of thing that this is. Again, this is what JD is trying to do. JD is trying to work interpersonal relationships to prevent either of them from, from running. And if he does that, then he's the nominee, I think. Just, can we just talk as figure skating judges for a moment? My view is that like, Tucker is really, really, really good at this. He is one of the best talkers I have ever met. He's an amazing hang. I mean, this is, you know, again, I've known him since I was 22, although we don't break bread much anymore. And like, my, my respect for what he is able to do just as a talker is very, very significant. Am I. Tell me where, what do you guys. What is your opinion of this sort of just qua. Horse flesh?

[Andrew Egger]

No, I think that's true. I think, you know, having just spent, you know, 90 minutes last night watching it, you know, I, I feel like it was a good product. You know, I was getting my haircut today and my barber, who described herself as a progressive, was really on board with, you know, she had kind of sought it out on her own and watched it and really enjoyed it and, you know, thought he made some good points. You know, I'll leave.

[JVL]

You know, but the people's self identification is so fucking untrustworthy. Sorry.

[Andrew Egger]

Yes.

[JVL]

I mean, it's, I'm super progressive. I love watching Tucker Carlson.

[Andrew Egger]

And I think there's probably like, I'm going to say it's like, you know, 40% of the country, but I think there's a lot of people who are going to watch that. And I think he's, you know, that's why I think it was so interesting when the times caught him lying about not calling Trump the Antichrist because he, he's so slippery and he can phrase these things and you Go, oh, that might make a good point. And he picks these issues like data centers, like flock cameras, all these things that I think are, you know, really unite people across the political spectrum in terms of their anger. And he says, I'm the guy who's going to fix it.

[Will Sommer]

Yeah, I think that the, the illustration of the person who says, well, he makes some really good points is really key to, to Tucker's brand of persuasion, which is to make some really good points and then to have every sixth thing he says be like the craziest thing you ever heard sort of slipped in there and sort of slipstreaming off of the aura of, of reasonability that is, that is left over from the first five things where he's like. And I think everybody can just agree, you know, this and that and the other. And again, I, that is part of the reason why, kind of like what I said at the beginning. I think he is a weird vehicle to actually create an ideological program that is supposed to sort of prop up this listless MAGA project, which again, is what he's suggesting. I mean, this is a manifesto that he has laid out. It's a 10 point sort of North Star. Here are, you know, in this house, we believe type document. And I think that that bit of it is a little disingenuous. But as a political talent, as a speaker, as a guy who can and could and might try to coalesce a cult of personality around some of these things, even if they don't really hang together as a project. I, I am not, I am not selling short on Tucker at all.

[JVL]

Yeah. And he's also been famous for a really long time. I mean, this, this was always, I think one of Trump's superpowers was that he had been part of America's cultural furniture for like 40 years. And Tucker is not like that. But Tucker has been around in American consciousness for a long time. Like he was the young guy with the bow tie on cnn. Then he was the guy who got into the big fight with Jon Stewart, and then he was the guy on Dancing with the Stars, and then he was the guy during the Trump, you know what I'm saying? Like, there's, there are a lot of

[Will Sommer]

Dancing with the Stars.

[JVL]

He was on the first season of Dancing with the Stars. I believe he was the first person eliminated on the first season of Dancing with the Stars and was so charming that the show basically kept him around just as an interviewer for the rest of the season because he was again, such a good hang and everybody loved Tucker. And so even though he was out, he just, like, hung around the show for the rest of the season. People know him. Even if people aren't, like, connected to politics, like, oh, the Dancing with the Stars guy or the this guy, that's a pretty big advantage, I think. No.

[Will Sommer]

Okay, well, silent, because.

[JVL]

I agree.

[Andrew Egger]

I agree.

[JVL]

Yeah, yeah, it's. It's all great. And I couldn't agree more about the idea that he's doing, like, the stuff that isn't expressly political, which feels very Candace like, to me. Will, is he more Candace than Candace? Is he slightly less Candace than Candace? Can you explain to people what, like, her secret sauce is?

[Andrew Egger]

Yeah. So one of Candace Owens big ideas has been, you know, covering, like, celebrity drama. So, like, she got really into the Blake Lively Justin Baldoni lawsuit, and she was going out after it in, like, sort of a conservative valence of, like, look at this awful woman. But that was kind of the. How she reached a broader audience. And so people who wouldn't tune in to hear like, Ben Shapiro rant about something politically. And I think in this way, Tucker, he gets. He's not talking about, like, tax cuts or whatever. He's talking about, like, this sense in your heart that something is wrong with America, that all the farms are becoming data centers and solar panels and what have you. And I think that that way he's kind of getting at this. This just sort of a feeling that something isn't right and that America has gone wrong. And so I think in that way, he. He's reaching people who wouldn't normally hear, like, Republican talking points.

[JVL]

Yeah.

[Will Sommer]

It is confusing, though, because this is America's golden age, you know?

[Andrew Egger]

You know, this is starting to think it's not. It's the Antichrist golden age.

[JVL]

Let me just tell you boys, in the same way that the hardest question to understand in American politics today is who was president in 2020? Two years from now, the question of who's been in power for most of the last decade is going to become absolutely mysterious. There's going to be all these horrible things happening in America, and America's so ugly and it's not beautiful. There's trash everywhere and all these dirty immigrants. And so now we. True manga has never been tried. That's where we're headed. All right, Andrew Egger, Will Sommer. Great to have you guys. Go sign up for the newsletters. Go to the bullwork.com, hit like hit Subs. Subscribe. Follow the channel. We'll be back with more good news because it's always good news. Good luck, America.