Watch an Expert Dismantle RFK Jr.’s Vaccine Myths (w/ Paul Offit)

Summary

Bulwark Takes: Watch an Expert Dismantle RFK Jr.’s Vaccine Myths (w/ Paul Offit)

Release Date: August 13, 2025
Host: The Bulwark
Guest: Dr. Paul Offit, Professor of Pediatrics at the University of Pennsylvania and Director of the Center for Vaccine Education at the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia

Introduction

In this episode of Bulwark Takes, Jonathan Cohn addresses recent controversial statements made by Robert F. Kennedy Jr., the Secretary of Health and Human Services (HHS), regarding MRNA vaccines. After Kennedy announced the withdrawal of approximately half a billion dollars in federal research funds aimed at developing next-generation MRNA vaccines, questions arose about the validity and implications of his claims. To provide clarity, The Bulwark hosts Dr. Paul Offit, a renowned vaccine expert, to debunk Kennedy’s assertions and provide an evidence-based perspective on MRNA vaccines.

RFK Jr.’s Claims on MRNA Vaccines

1. MRNA Vaccines Ineffective Against Respiratory Illnesses

At [03:28], Jonathan Cohn introduces one of Kennedy’s key statements:

Katie Lutz: "MRNA vaccines don't perform well against viruses that infect the upper respiratory tract."

Kennedy suggests that MRNA vaccines fail to prevent respiratory illnesses like COVID-19 effectively. He implies that these vaccines are not beneficial in controlling such viruses.

Dr. Offit’s Rebuttal:

Paul Offit [03:44]: "The goal of vaccines in those kinds of infections is to prevent serious illness... the vaccine worked. In 2021... you were 12 times more likely to be hospitalized... The vaccine probably saved between 2 to 3 million lives in the United States alone."

Offit clarifies that while MRNA vaccines may not entirely prevent mild or moderate illnesses, their primary objective is to avert severe cases, hospitalizations, and deaths. He emphasizes the significant impact these vaccines have had in reducing mortality rates.

2. MRNA Vaccines Promote Antigenic Shift and Prolong Pandemics

At [09:27], another of Kennedy’s assertions is presented:

Katie Lutz: "This dynamic drives a phenomena called antigenic shift, meaning that the vaccine paradoxically encourages new mutations and can actually prolong pandemics as the virus constantly mutates to escape the protective effects of the vaccine."

Kennedy claims that MRNA vaccines contribute to viral mutations, leading to prolonged pandemics by facilitating antigenic shifts.

Dr. Offit’s Counterargument:

Paul Offit [10:12]: "Those variants were created before we ever had a vaccine. The term antigenic shift is really reserved for influenza virus... It doesn't happen with this virus."

Offit refutes the notion that MRNA vaccines drive antigenic shifts, explaining that the viral variants emerged prior to vaccine deployment. He clarifies that antigenic shift is a term specific to influenza viruses and does not apply to coronaviruses like SARS-CoV-2. According to Offit, the circulating variants have been effectively managed without leading to recurrent pandemics, demonstrating the vaccines' efficacy in controlling the virus's impact.

3. MRNA Vaccines Pose More Risks Than Benefits

At [12:38], Kennedy states:

Katie Lutz: "After reviewing the science and consulting top experts at NIH and FDA, HHS has determined that MRNA technology poses more risk and benefits for these respiratory viruses."

Kennedy argues that the risks associated with MRNA vaccines outweigh their benefits, hinting at potential side effects and long-term complications.

Dr. Offit’s Detailed Response:

Paul Offit [13:22]: "The vaccine could cause myocarditis... it was rare, about 1 in 50,000 people, and generally mild... compared to myocarditis caused by the virus... the vaccine continues to save lives."

Offit acknowledges the rare occurrence of myocarditis, particularly among younger males, but emphasizes that these cases are typically mild and transient. He contrasts this with the severe myocarditis associated with actual COVID-19 infections, which often required intensive care and led to fatalities. Offit underscores the overall safety and life-saving benefits of MRNA vaccines, asserting that the benefits significantly surpass the minimal risks.

4. Shift from MRNA to Whole Virus Vaccines

At [18:33], Kennedy proposes a strategic pivot:

Katie Lutz: "The troubled MRNA programs. We're prioritizing the development of safer, broader vaccine strategies like whole virus vaccines and novel platforms that don't collapse when viruses mutate."

Kennedy advocates for investing in whole virus vaccines as a superior alternative to MRNA technology, suggesting they offer better protection against viral mutations.

Dr. Offit’s Explanation:

Paul Offit [19:07]: "A whole viral vaccine includes all viral proteins... China introduced a whole killed viral vaccine, and it didn't work nearly as well as the MRNA vaccines."

Offit explains that whole virus vaccines, which encompass the entire virus rather than a single protein, have a long history but do not necessarily provide superior protection. He cites the example of China's whole killed viral vaccine for SARS-CoV-2, which was less effective compared to MRNA vaccines. Offit also highlights that all viruses mutate regardless of the vaccine type, but MRNA vaccines have consistently offered robust protection against severe disease through both antibody and T-cell responses.

Addressing Long-Term Safety Concerns

At [16:55], Jonathan Cohn raises a common concern:

Jonathan Cohn: "Is there a reason to worry about what we might discover 5 or 10 years from now?"

Dr. Offit’s Assurance:

Paul Offit [17:12]: "I don't know of any examples where something pops up five years later or ten years later... all occurs quickly."

Offit reassures listeners that vaccine-related adverse effects typically manifest shortly after administration, if at all. He provides historical examples where side effects appeared within weeks rather than years, emphasizing that long-term safety issues are highly unlikely.

Conclusion

Throughout the episode, Dr. Paul Offit effectively dismantles RFK Jr.’s claims by providing scientific evidence and contextual understanding of MRNA vaccines’ development, efficacy, and safety. Offit emphasizes the life-saving benefits of these vaccines, the rarity and mildness of side effects, and the robust immune responses they elicit, including T-cell mediated protection against severe disease. The discussion highlights the importance of relying on expert analysis and empirical data when evaluating public health decisions.

Notable Quotes

• Jonathan Cohn [00:00]: Introduction to the topic and the significance of addressing RFK Jr.’s claims.
• Paul Offit [03:44]: "The vaccine worked. In 2021... you were 12 times more likely to be hospitalized... The vaccine probably saved between 2 to 3 million lives in the United States alone."
• Paul Offit [10:12]: "Those variants were created before we ever had a vaccine... It doesn't happen with this virus."
• Paul Offit [13:22]: "The vaccine could cause myocarditis... it was rare, about 1 in 50,000 people, and generally mild."
• Paul Offit [19:07]: "A whole viral vaccine includes all viral proteins... it didn't work nearly as well as the MRNA vaccines."
• Paul Offit [17:12]: "I don't know of any examples where something pops up five years later or ten years later."

Final Remarks

In addressing RFK Jr.’s vaccine myths, Bulwark Takes leverages Dr. Paul Offit’s expertise to provide listeners with a clear, evidence-based understanding of MRNA vaccines. The episode underscores the critical role of scientific expertise in public health discourse and the importance of accurate information in combating misinformation.

Transcript

[Jonathan Cohn]

Hey everybody, it's Jonathan Cohn here at the Bulwark. You know, last week, Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. Secretary of Health and Human Services, announced that at his direction, the federal government was pulling about half a billion dollars in research funds for the development of the next MRNA vaccines. MRNA vaccines. As you may know, that's the type of the medical breakthrough that led to the COVID vaccines. Secretary Kennedy said he has decided after he said, we reviewed the science, we listened to the experts and decided that the vaccines were the risks, outweighed the benefits and they were not effective. I think his citation of that was important because I think people hear a government official making these pronouncements, talking, citing scientists, citing studies, and sounds like they know what they're talking about. It struck me as a little odd because all the researchers and physicians I know think MRNA vaccine was a terrific innovation. They credit it with saving lives. But, you know, I'm not a scientist, so I thought we should ask somebody who really does know this, and we've got somebody. I can't think of a better person to address this. Paul Offit is a professor of pediatrics at the University of Pennsylvania. He is director of the center for Vaccine Education at the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia. And if you don't recognize him those, by those titles, you will probably recognize his voice and his face because he is one of the most widely sought after experts on vaccines and immunology, not just in the United States, but in the world. We're very grateful to have him with here us today. Dr. Offit, thanks for joining us.

[Paul Offit]

Thank you.

[Jonathan Cohn]

Before we get started, just to kind of set the scene here, what was this investment supposed to. It was a half billion dollars of investment. What was the idea of this money? What were they trying to. What was it going to? What kind of research was it going to support?

[Paul Offit]

Well, so Barda, the RDA stands for Research Development Authority. So the goal is to try and do research in advance of something happening. So, for example, there was a vaccine being studied for bird flu, specifically H5N1 virus, so you could get ahead of that. I mean, I think what people didn't realize is that the reason that we were able to create an MRNA vaccine against SARS CoV2, the virus that caused Covid so quickly, was because of NIH. When SARS1 raised its head in 2002, 2003, NIH started working on a SARS1 vaccine and had a lot of information on how to make an MRNA vaccine against coronaviruses. So that when SARS CoV2 raised its head. Then we were much better prepared. That's what's going on at Barda. You know, this Research Development Authority is to try and get ahead of the game on things like bird flu, the H5N1 virus.

[Jonathan Cohn]

You know, when Secretary Kennedy announced this, they put out a press release and he made a video, it's about two and a half minute video, in which he explained HHS was doing. So what I'd like to do is just pull out sort of the key portions of that video and kind of have you react and tell us, because he sounds very convincing. I think lots of people have questions about vaccines. They hear this, it sounds. They assume he knows what he's talking about. Our producer here, Katie Lutz, is going to cue them up and play them. And Katie, why don't we go ahead and show the first excerpt.

[Katie Lutz]

MRNA vaccines don't perform well against viruses that infect the upper respiratory tract.

[Jonathan Cohn]

So that's just a basic statement. He's saying these vaccines, they don't work against respiratory illnesses, of which Covid is one, obviously. Is that true?

[Paul Offit]

Influenza, SARS, COV2, the virus that causes Covid, respiratory sensitive virus, are all short incubation period mucosal infections. The goal of vaccines in those kinds of infections is to prevent serious illness. Keep people out of the hospital, keep them out of the intensive care unit, keep them out of the morgue for those kinds of illnesses. Cause you're not gonna prevent a mild or moderate illness for long. Either after natural infection or a vaccination, usually about six months later, you're still to some extent susceptible to that. So that's the goal. Keep you out of the hospital. Did that vaccine work? Of course it did. In 2021, when we had a vaccine, you were 12 times more likely to be hospitalized, 12 times more likely to die if you were unvaccinated than if you were vaccinated. The following year, you were six times more likely to be hospitalized and die if you were unvaccinated than if you were vaccinated. Depending on who you look at, this vaccine probably saved between 2 to 3 million lives in the United States alone. And the Kaiser Family foundation and others have looked at how many people, by choosing not to get a vaccine, basically chose their own death. At least 200,000 and maybe as many as 250,000. Of course the vaccine worked. I think he doesn't understand the goal of the vaccine.

[Jonathan Cohn]

I'm curious, why do you think. I mean, I think a lot of people had that impression. They're like, oh, you Know, we thought this was gonna wipe it out. It didn't, therefore it didn't work. Why do you think people might think that?

[Paul Offit]

I think in that year 2021, when we had a vaccine, I think it was a little over promised. I think the notion was that it could stop transmission. And although it can lessen transmission, it's not going to stop transmission. I think people were mandated to get a vaccine and then they got a vaccine. Not necessarily something they were willing to do, but they did. And then they got a moderate illness, which was they would be home for a few days with cough and fever and runny nose and feeling miserable, and they're thinking, hey, they made me get this vaccine and now I'm home for a couple days with fever. They lied to. I think we should have explained what this vaccine could and couldn't do right from the beginning, and we didn't do a great job at that.

[Jonathan Cohn]

Yeah, no. I think there are a lot of public health lessons that came out of that that hopefully we learn for next time. Katie, you want to play that second quote for us?

[Katie Lutz]

Now, here's the problem. MRNA only codes for a small part of the viral proteins, usually a single antigen, one mutation, and the vaccine becomes ineffective.

[Jonathan Cohn]

So here we go. I just, you know, just parenthetically, I think one of the things that Secretary Kennedy does a lot is he kind of throws out words that sound technical. You know, he sounds like he's getting into the weeds here of biology and describing that. So. So what he just said there, Dr. Offit, what do you think?

[Paul Offit]

Okay, so first of all, the SARS CoV2 vaccine, the COVID vaccine, is, is against one protein, specifically the spike protein, the fusion protein, the protein that sits on the surface of the vi. Viruses usually have one protein that allows them to attach to cells. If you can prevent the virus from attaching to cells by making antibodies against that protein, then you can prevent the virus from entering cells and causing an infection. So we have other single protein vaccines. The hepatitis B vaccine, for example, is a single protein vaccine that has virtually eliminated hepatitis B infections in children less than 10 years of age. We have a human papillomavirus vaccine, again, single protein surface protein, which has reduced the instance of cervical cancer in this country 60%. So he says that, well, by having just one protein, if the virus, for example, mutates away from the recognition, the antibody response against that one protein, that it's completely ineffective. That's just not true. If that were true, if the vaccine was now no longer effective at all, then we're back to where we were in 2019, when the whole world is susceptible. So that's obviously wrong. He also ignores something that's critical, which is T cells. It's not just antibodies that protect you. It's also a part of your immune system called T cells, specifically cytotoxic T cells.

[Jonathan Cohn]

You want to tell people what the differences are between very quickly those different kinds of cells.

[Paul Offit]

Yeah, yeah, sure. So B cells make antibodies and T cells don't. What T cells do, at least one kind of T cell is it kills virus infected cells. So after the virus has already entered the cell, the T cell recognizes that, that there's something foreign going on in that cell and kills the cell before more virus particles can be made. Cytotoxic T cells are critical to protection. In fact, I would argue that Dan Baruch, who's an immunologist at Harvard, said it best. He said cytotoxic T cells are the unsung hero of this pandemic. I think that's right. The thing about T cells, as distinct from B cells, T cells recognize regions of the virus that are conserved from one strain to the next to the next. Although you have a variety of variants that are formed, T cells recognize that part that's the same on all variants. And that's generally why you're protected against severe disease, because you have these memory T cells that are generally long lived. So that is completely ignored by Robert F. Kennedy Jr. In that statement.

[Jonathan Cohn]

So even if there are these mutated, this mutation in this one part, your body's immune system, these, these, these T cells you're talking about, they are going to still be able to destroy the virus, destroy the cells with the virus and keep you from getting really sick and, you know, hope.

[Paul Offit]

Correct, Right. And are independent of the virus mutating away from recognition by the T cells. T cells are long lived and recognized, relatively conserved regions on these variants.

[Jonathan Cohn]

Right, right, right. Let's go to the next segment.

[Katie Lutz]

This dynamic drives a phenomena called antigenic shift, meaning that the vaccine paradoxically encourages new mutations and can actually prolong pandemics as the virus constantly mutates to escape the protective effects of the vaccine.

[Jonathan Cohn]

So I thought this was one of the most notable things he said in that video, because if you translate what he's saying, or at least the way I translated it, he's saying not only did the vaccine is it failing to keep you healthy, but it's actually accelerating the process of causing new mutations so that a pandemic can actually go on for longer Which I thought was a sort of quite a claim. Is there anything to that?

[Paul Offit]

No. So, for example, when this virus raised its head in China in late 2019, SARS CoV2 virus, the original strain was called the ancestral strain or the Wuhan one strain. That's not the strain that left China. The strain that left China was the first variant. It didn't have a Greek letter designation. It was called D614G, but it was more contagious. So it's the one that swept through Asia, swept through Europe, and then it was replaced by the alpha variant, then it was replaced by the delta variant. That all happened before there ever was a vaccine. So this virus can mutate away from one, can mutate away from one strain to the next without any pressure from vaccines, because all those variants were created before we ever had a vaccine. So that's wrong. The term antigenic shift is really reserved for influenza virus because influenza virus has a so called segmented genome. So there's different segments and each segment codes for a specific protein. What happens with influenza is sometimes a whole gene segment is transferred from one virus to the next. That's what antigenic shift is. That doesn't happen with this virus. There is not antigenic shift on coronaviruses. So he's using a term that's applied to influenza virus for coronavirus. And when that happens with influenza virus, then you get a pandemic. Every time there's an antigenic shift, you get a pandemic. Like the 1918 pandemic, 1957 flu pandemic, 1968 flu pandemic, the 2009 flu pandemic, those were all antigenic shifts. If this virus went an antigenic shift, which means a complete change from what that virus was in terms of recognition by the immune response, then we have a new pandemic. And that's not what's been happening. We have generally controlled this virus. We don't have a pandemic anymore. This virus doesn't change the way we live, work or play anymore. And although certainly hundreds of thousands of people are being hospitalized and tens of thousands are dying every year, it's much better than where we were, which we would have thousands of people dying every day. That's not happening anymore because we've gotten on top of this virus with immunization. So his notion that the vaccine has created these strains that are completely resistant to the immune response induced by vaccination is wrong on its face. Because if that were true, we would have another pandemic every time that happened.

[Jonathan Cohn]

Let's go to the next clip. Katie, can you play it for us?

[Katie Lutz]

After reviewing the science and consulting top experts at NIH and fda, HHS has determined that MRNA technology poses more risk and benefits for these respiratory viruses.

[Jonathan Cohn]

So let's leave out the first part of that about who he did or didn't consult. Let's just focus on the second part there. So he's saying the risk is worse than the benefit. And although he didn't say it here, I think if you know his background, if you know what people think he's talking about, you know, suppose you know, what he would say, are they, you know, there were side effects, people were harmed, Just, just walk us through that. What do we know about side effects, complications? Is there a case to be made that they are worse than the benefits?

[Paul Offit]

So I'm actually on the FDA vaccine advisory committee when we sat down in December of 2020 to look at the two studies that had been done by Pfizer and Moderna. So Pfizer had done a placebo controlled one to one study of 40,000 people adults that either got the vaccine or didn't. So because it was one to one, placebo controlled, 20,000 people got Pfizer's MRNA vaccine. Moderna did a 30,000 person trial. So 15,000 people got the vaccine. So that means that In December of 2020, 35,000 adults had gotten the MRNA Covid vaccines. And we were asked whether or not we thought that was enough information, whether we knew enough to say that this vaccine should be authorized for use through emergency use authorization. Because you don't know everything, you never know everything. The question is, did you know enough? And we voted unanimously, yes. But we all held our breath because you know that the history of medical innovation is that there is invariably human price paid for knowledge. You know that although you've given this vaccine to 35,000 people, that may not predict what is about to happen. When you give this vaccine to hundreds and hundreds of millions of people that there may be, and it frankly likely will be a rare side effect. The only question is how rare and how serious. So what happened was we learned really within a few months that this vaccine could cause myocarditis, which is inflammation of the heart muscle, primarily in boys and young men between 16 and 29 years of age. Now the good news is it was rare, occurred overall in about 1 in 50,000 people. And it was generally mild, self limited and transient, short lived, which is distinct from the myocarditis caused by the virus. I mean, when this virus first affected children in this country. 2020, 2021, we had three floors of COVID at Children's Hospital Philadelphia. And most of those children had something called multisystem inflammatory disease, which means they got sick, they got better, and then they came back with this sort of multi system disease that involved the lungs, liver and involved the heart. And so we saw severe myocarditis caused by that virus where children would have to go to the intensive care unit. And there were deaths associated with myocarditis caused by the virus, but not the vaccine. And in fact, if you look now, over the last three years, myocarditis has virtually disappeared. I think this is one of the safest, best tested vaccines ever made, ever. And in terms of benefits, of course it's beneficial. I mean, if you look at people who are getting hospitalized and who are dying, they're invariably not vaccinated. If it's vaccination continues to save our lives. So he makes it up. I don't know what he's talking about when he talks about that. Now, arguably, look at what happened in February 2021. In February 2021, we authorized Johnson Johnson's adenovirus vectored vaccine. So that wasn't an MRNA vaccine, it was an adenovirus that had the sort of like a Trojan horse virus that would go into your cells and deliver then the gene that coded for the spike protein from SARS CoV2. So again, there the studies were in tens of thousands of people, but not millions. And what would happen and what we found was very quickly there was a very rare side effect which was clotting. And it could be clotting in the brain and it could be fatal. Clotting in the brain, it was rare, maybe 1 in 250,000 people. So you weren't going to pick that up in a study of tens of thousands of people. But when it was given to tens of millions of people, you saw that and it was a serious side effect. So much so that By May of 2023, that vaccine was off the market. So I don't know what he's talking about with the MRNA vaccines, which are remarkably safe. I mean, not absolutely safe, but remarkably SAF vaccine.

[Jonathan Cohn]

One other question I think some people think, well, this is so new, it's a new technology, so we don't know what's going to show up in five or 10 years. And that should give us pause and make us question these vaccines. Is there a reason to worry about what we might discover 5, 10, 20 years from now?

[Paul Offit]

I don't think so. I mean, certainly vaccines can cause serious problems. Vaccines can cause permanent damage, vaccines can cause death. But when that happens, it's invariably because of the immune response to the vaccine. So, for example, the influenza vaccine is a rare cause of something called Guillain Barre syndrome, when the body basically, by giving the vaccine, you're inducing an autoimmune response against your own nervous system. And that's what Guillain Barre syndrome is. But it happens really within weeks of getting the vaccine. There was a flu vaccine, an influenza vaccine given in Europe called pandemrx, for the 2009 pandemic. And that caused narcolepsy, which is a permanent disorder of wakefulness. It was rare, maybe 1 in 50,000, but it was real. But again, it occurred within weeks. The oral polio vaccine, Albert Sabin's oral polio vaccine was a rare cause of polio, about 1 per 2.4 million doses. But again, it was because the immune response to the vaccine and occurred within weeks. The same thing's true of myocarditis with this vaccine or clotting associated with the JJ vaccine. That's why you have to have a two month follow up after the last dose of vaccine before you submit something for licensure. But it all occurs quickly. So I don't know of any examples where something pops up five years later or ten years later.

[Jonathan Cohn]

All right, and then we have one last, one last RFK quote. Let's go ahead and play that replace.

[Katie Lutz]

The troubled MRNA programs. We're prioritizing the development of safer, broader vaccine strategies like whole virus vaccines and novel platforms that don't collapse when viruses mutate.

[Jonathan Cohn]

So this whole virus vaccine, he made a big announcement about this a couple weeks ago. This, he says this is the real hope for the future. We should be putting, this is where we should be putting our resources into. Can you just quickly tell us what is a whole virus vaccine? And is there a reason to be sort of switching our bets and putting all this, taking all this money out of MRNA and putting into a whole virus.

[Paul Offit]

So a whole viral vaccine is you take the virus, grow it up in cells, purify it, and then kill it with an inactivating agent like a chemical. The first time we did that was with the rabies vaccine in the late 1800s. That's a whole killed viral vaccine. I guess the next time would have been in the 1950s with Jonas Salk's polio vaccine. Grow polio up, purify it, kill it with an inactivating agent. The hepatitis A vaccine is a whole Killed viral vaccine. It's certainly not a new technology. It's been around since the late 1800s. And his notion is that that would be better for this vaccine because it includes essentially all four viral proteins instead of just the one viral protein, the SARS CoV2 Spike protein. Well, so that's what China did. China in 2020 introduced a whole killed viral vaccine, and it didn't work nearly as well as the MRNA vaccines. So again, he' wrong. Also, I think people should realize all viruses mutate. Every virus on the planet mutates. The only question is to what extent it mutates. So, for example, influenza mutates so much from one year to the next that natural infection one year doesn't protect against disease well, the following year, so you get a yearly vaccine. Human immunodeficiency virus continues to mutate during a single infection. So it continues to mutate again and again and again. So you make an immune response initially to the first virus that you're infected with, but then it continues to mutate, mutate again and again, so that initial immune response becomes ineffective. That's why it's so hard to make a human immunodeficiency virus vaccine. Measles, like SARS CoV2 is a single stranded RNA virus, so it has a very similar genome because genes are in the center of viruses, which are a blueprint for how they reproduce themselves. Measles virus continues to mutate. We've had a measles vaccine since 1963, and that virus has never mutated away from recognition by the immune response induced by vaccination. Different viruses mutate differently to a different effect. What you can say about this virus is it's never mutated away from T cell recognition. And although it does mutate to some extent away from antibody recognition, you still are relatively protected against severe disease. So, again, I don't know what he's talking about. See, what upsets me about this is it sounds like he knows what he's talking about, Right? He's using fancy scientific words like antigenic shift and mutation, but he doesn't know what he's talking about. So he's just selling you something that's not true.

[Jonathan Cohn]

Dr. Offit, thanks for spending some time with us. Appreciate it. Appreciate. I know our viewers and listeners do, and we'll be hopefully talking to you again in the future.

[Paul Offit]

Thank you.

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[Paul Offit]

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[Katie Lutz]

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