Bulwark Takes: Watch an Expert Dismantle RFK Jr.’s Vaccine Myths (w/ Paul Offit)

Release Date: August 13, 2025
Host: The Bulwark
Guest: Dr. Paul Offit, Professor of Pediatrics at the University of Pennsylvania and Director of the Center for Vaccine Education at the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia

Introduction

In this episode of Bulwark Takes, Jonathan Cohn addresses recent controversial statements made by Robert F. Kennedy Jr., the Secretary of Health and Human Services (HHS), regarding MRNA vaccines. After Kennedy announced the withdrawal of approximately half a billion dollars in federal research funds aimed at developing next-generation MRNA vaccines, questions arose about the validity and implications of his claims. To provide clarity, The Bulwark hosts Dr. Paul Offit, a renowned vaccine expert, to debunk Kennedy’s assertions and provide an evidence-based perspective on MRNA vaccines.

RFK Jr.’s Claims on MRNA Vaccines

1. MRNA Vaccines Ineffective Against Respiratory Illnesses

At [03:28], Jonathan Cohn introduces one of Kennedy’s key statements:

Katie Lutz: "MRNA vaccines don't perform well against viruses that infect the upper respiratory tract."

Kennedy suggests that MRNA vaccines fail to prevent respiratory illnesses like COVID-19 effectively. He implies that these vaccines are not beneficial in controlling such viruses.

Dr. Offit’s Rebuttal:

Paul Offit [03:44]: "The goal of vaccines in those kinds of infections is to prevent serious illness... the vaccine worked. In 2021... you were 12 times more likely to be hospitalized... The vaccine probably saved between 2 to 3 million lives in the United States alone."

Offit clarifies that while MRNA vaccines may not entirely prevent mild or moderate illnesses, their primary objective is to avert severe cases, hospitalizations, and deaths. He emphasizes the significant impact these vaccines have had in reducing mortality rates.

2. MRNA Vaccines Promote Antigenic Shift and Prolong Pandemics

At [09:27], another of Kennedy’s assertions is presented:

Katie Lutz: "This dynamic drives a phenomena called antigenic shift, meaning that the vaccine paradoxically encourages new mutations and can actually prolong pandemics as the virus constantly mutates to escape the protective effects of the vaccine."

Kennedy claims that MRNA vaccines contribute to viral mutations, leading to prolonged pandemics by facilitating antigenic shifts.

Dr. Offit’s Counterargument:

Paul Offit [10:12]: "Those variants were created before we ever had a vaccine. The term antigenic shift is really reserved for influenza virus... It doesn't happen with this virus."

Offit refutes the notion that MRNA vaccines drive antigenic shifts, explaining that the viral variants emerged prior to vaccine deployment. He clarifies that antigenic shift is a term specific to influenza viruses and does not apply to coronaviruses like SARS-CoV-2. According to Offit, the circulating variants have been effectively managed without leading to recurrent pandemics, demonstrating the vaccines' efficacy in controlling the virus's impact.

3. MRNA Vaccines Pose More Risks Than Benefits

At [12:38], Kennedy states:

Katie Lutz: "After reviewing the science and consulting top experts at NIH and FDA, HHS has determined that MRNA technology poses more risk and benefits for these respiratory viruses."

Kennedy argues that the risks associated with MRNA vaccines outweigh their benefits, hinting at potential side effects and long-term complications.

Dr. Offit’s Detailed Response:

Paul Offit [13:22]: "The vaccine could cause myocarditis... it was rare, about 1 in 50,000 people, and generally mild... compared to myocarditis caused by the virus... the vaccine continues to save lives."

Offit acknowledges the rare occurrence of myocarditis, particularly among younger males, but emphasizes that these cases are typically mild and transient. He contrasts this with the severe myocarditis associated with actual COVID-19 infections, which often required intensive care and led to fatalities. Offit underscores the overall safety and life-saving benefits of MRNA vaccines, asserting that the benefits significantly surpass the minimal risks.

4. Shift from MRNA to Whole Virus Vaccines

At [18:33], Kennedy proposes a strategic pivot:

Katie Lutz: "The troubled MRNA programs. We're prioritizing the development of safer, broader vaccine strategies like whole virus vaccines and novel platforms that don't collapse when viruses mutate."

Kennedy advocates for investing in whole virus vaccines as a superior alternative to MRNA technology, suggesting they offer better protection against viral mutations.

Dr. Offit’s Explanation:

Paul Offit [19:07]: "A whole viral vaccine includes all viral proteins... China introduced a whole killed viral vaccine, and it didn't work nearly as well as the MRNA vaccines."

Offit explains that whole virus vaccines, which encompass the entire virus rather than a single protein, have a long history but do not necessarily provide superior protection. He cites the example of China's whole killed viral vaccine for SARS-CoV-2, which was less effective compared to MRNA vaccines. Offit also highlights that all viruses mutate regardless of the vaccine type, but MRNA vaccines have consistently offered robust protection against severe disease through both antibody and T-cell responses.

Addressing Long-Term Safety Concerns

At [16:55], Jonathan Cohn raises a common concern:

Jonathan Cohn: "Is there a reason to worry about what we might discover 5 or 10 years from now?"

Dr. Offit’s Assurance:

Paul Offit [17:12]: "I don't know of any examples where something pops up five years later or ten years later... all occurs quickly."

Offit reassures listeners that vaccine-related adverse effects typically manifest shortly after administration, if at all. He provides historical examples where side effects appeared within weeks rather than years, emphasizing that long-term safety issues are highly unlikely.

Conclusion

Throughout the episode, Dr. Paul Offit effectively dismantles RFK Jr.’s claims by providing scientific evidence and contextual understanding of MRNA vaccines’ development, efficacy, and safety. Offit emphasizes the life-saving benefits of these vaccines, the rarity and mildness of side effects, and the robust immune responses they elicit, including T-cell mediated protection against severe disease. The discussion highlights the importance of relying on expert analysis and empirical data when evaluating public health decisions.

Notable Quotes

• Jonathan Cohn [00:00]: Introduction to the topic and the significance of addressing RFK Jr.’s claims.
• Paul Offit [03:44]: "The vaccine worked. In 2021... you were 12 times more likely to be hospitalized... The vaccine probably saved between 2 to 3 million lives in the United States alone."
• Paul Offit [10:12]: "Those variants were created before we ever had a vaccine... It doesn't happen with this virus."
• Paul Offit [13:22]: "The vaccine could cause myocarditis... it was rare, about 1 in 50,000 people, and generally mild."
• Paul Offit [19:07]: "A whole viral vaccine includes all viral proteins... it didn't work nearly as well as the MRNA vaccines."
• Paul Offit [17:12]: "I don't know of any examples where something pops up five years later or ten years later."

Final Remarks

In addressing RFK Jr.’s vaccine myths, Bulwark Takes leverages Dr. Paul Offit’s expertise to provide listeners with a clear, evidence-based understanding of MRNA vaccines. The episode underscores the critical role of scientific expertise in public health discourse and the importance of accurate information in combating misinformation.