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- [00:00]
A
Hey, everybody. Tim O from the Bulwark here with our publisher, Sarah Longwell. We have breaking news out of Utah. Charlie Kirk, founder of Turning Point usa, big advocate of President Donald Trump, fellow podcaster, was assassinated. He was shot and killed at Utah Valley University in Orem, Utah, a couple hours ago. Obviously, we'll have more as week goes on. But, Sarah, I'm wondering what your initial. Initial thoughts are on this.
- [00:25]
B
You know, it's. It's been a very hard time in our politics because the. I think what many of us feel is the existential nature of it, it leads to us, everybody feeling, like, really intense about the moment. But the idea that people are being shot and killed for their political beliefs, for being commentators, you know, it. It takes it to a different place, like a much darker place, a place that feels like rather than being people who can talk and fight and, you know, are all kind of part of the same country, trying to figure out, you know, the best way that. That we know how, which is through, like, debate and argument and, and, you know, and tough politics. But whenever people are being killed over these things, shot at, whether it's Gabby Giffords, whether it's Charlie Kirk, whether you agree with them or disagree with them, it means that we begin to live in a country where it's not. Doesn't feel as safe for people to take strong political positions, to have those conversations. And I think that that creates a devastating impact on our discourse. And, you know, I like Charlie Kirk. We've argued with him on the show. He's like, put pictures of us or video of us on his show like these. We were. We were not intellectual allies at all. But he is a young man. He's 31, with small kids. And I just feel really sad for them, for his family. And I feel, like, frightened the way that I sometimes feel now in this, all the, all of the politics where it just feels like we're moving into a moment where, like, you know, because, Charlie, here's the thing, man. You know, look, I didn't like a lot of his politics, but he was just. He was. He was out talking to people in a. In a crowd, and he was being very accessible to them, like a lot of us are. And, you know, he was mic'd up, but he was just under a little tent, and he was sort of taking all comers, right? He was taking people's questions and, and he was answering them. And I think that a lot of us put ourselves in those same kinds of situations with strangers all the time doing this stuff, and that Somebody would shoot him. I don't know. It's awful. And it makes you really just scared about the moment that we're living in. I don't know. What do you think?
- [03:03]
A
It's scary. I'm frightened. It's scary. A couple of thoughts to your thing. Well, just first on Charlie. He has two young kids, as you mentioned. He's a kid that just turned one, a son that just turned one. He's got a daughter that's three. I mean, those kids, like those kids deserve to have their dad. Those kids deserve to have their dad. And he should not be taken from them because somebody in a political. We don't actually know who the suspect is. I should mention the suspect is still at large. We think there was some video going around earlier of a man that was detained that. It turns out that was just kind of a gadfly that shows up a political event. So we don't actually know who the perpetrator is. But for whatever reason, for political reasons, and obviously it's political reason, it was an assassination. It wasn't a mass shooting. He shot just at Charlie. So idea that he'd be snuffed out for his political views and those kids would be denied their father and that Eric would be denied her husband is horrible. And the other thing I'll say about Charlie, to your point, and I dealt with Charlie, I went to two PUSA events, talked to him sometimes there. He knew that we disagreed. He knew that I was passionately in disagreement with him. He was somebody that would have passionate disagreements, which is what we should have in the country. I mean, as you mentioned at that event, he was doing it. And in this fucking dark moment, he was receiving a hostile question, actually, as he got shot. And the question was about mass shooting. And like, that's where we are in this country, that somebody's asking him to respond about mass shootings and he's killed while that question is asked. And that takes me to your point about people feeling free to say what they want. This is not a free country. I understand people use the term free country a lot about having gun rights in particular. But you aren't in a free country if you can't feel safe to express your views, whether they be far right or far left or in the middle or pro Trump or anti Trump. You're not in a free country if you have to feel fear to go out and have an exchange of views with people that disagree with you. And Charlie, for his, like, mistaken political views he had, was out there doing that, was trying to represent what America should be about and having a free country and having people challenge him and. And he's killed over it. And I just. I think that we are headed to a very. We're in a very dangerous place, and it's spiraling, you know, and it's not the first time we had in this country, both of us, it's kind of before our time. We've never really lived through a time of, like, mass political assassinations. We lived through a time of violence and school shootings and such. But, you know, in the 70s, this country's been through this before and come out of it. So it doesn't mean we can't come out of it. But to be in that world now again, where in addition to all the other problems that the country faces, you have this political violence that, to me, I don't. God willing, I'm wrong, but it feels like this. This is an escalating thing, right? It's like there's a view of, you know, who knows? I don't even want to put it into the universe. But, like, that other. That, that people feel like this is good, you know, that they cheer it, or that other people feel like they want retribution for it. Like, all any of those thoughts, like, to me, is just totally wrong and hateful. And I know it's very challenging given the political environment or in particular with this president. But, like, you know, we can't live in a real America, in a real country where everybody can expect to be able to live, you know, have life and have the ability to go pursue happiness and these fundamental American ideals. You can't do that if we're going to be having vigilante killings. And this is just the way. I mean, again, those attempts on Trump, there have been other examples, like you mentioned.
- [06:56]
B
There was the Minnesota.
- [06:58]
A
The Minnesota one that happened recently. They went to those people's houses. How horrible was that? They went to their house.
- [07:03]
B
Nancy Pelosi's husband. Like, this is happening more and more often. It knows no partisanship. The shooting of the United Health CEO, like, these types of assassinations or attempts on. Attempts to hurt people because you disagree with their politics. It is a problem across the country. And everybody should. You should feel passionately and you should fight hard for what you believe in, and you should try to persuade people. But we can't have these debates effectively. Donald Trump already tries to chill speech with threats and intimidation. Like, and if people just feel like there's vigilantes out there assassinating pundits and politicians, you know, all it's going to do is scare people from saying what they think. I don't, I mean.
- [08:03]
A
And give them actually, and here's the thing I just want to say. And give the fascists more power. That's what this does. Yeah, that's what this really does. It gives people, it gives authoritarians, people that want to take rights away from people more power because. Removes even more people from the public space.
- [08:21]
B
And we don't want to live scared. Nobody wants to live scared. And you don't. Because it is like that big balls. You know, getting that. That's part of the reason now there's National Guard stationed all over the city. Right. Like these things spiral. They build on themselves. And like, it's very hard. It's hard to, to want to de. Escalate at a time when you're like. But, but the other side is escalating so much and the stakes are so high and all of that stuff. But like, it is not hard to have a single North Star. Just don't do violence. Don't do violence. That's why we have free speech. We have free speech. So we have an outlet for everything and we don't do violence. And so I just, I guess I would ask people in these moments, like, you don't have to like what Charlie Kirk stood for. You don't like who he was as a person, but just remember he was a person. And these are the moments where we should make sure that we are people are just their best selves. And remember he's a person, remember he's a family, remember he has kids and, and that you don't want this to happen to anybody.
- [09:32]
A
I do think it's worth saying, obviously I endorse all of that. I do, I do want to say one thing about the, about guns because I don't know, like after Charlie, Charlie Kirk was assassinated, there's another, there's a school shooting in Colorado. Another one. Like the first, the school shooting that prompted all this was right down the street from my house. Happened when I was in high school, up in quarter century ago now. How many of these have happened in Colorado? So it happened in Evergreen. There's. We don't. At least a couple kids have been shot. We don't know what happened. But like, you know, I got frustrated at the debate around this following the Donald Trump assassination attempt that it became all about tone, you know, and all about like, oh, it's, you know, is the, is the rhetoric too hot out there? And I guess my view is I don't. And I don't want dehumanizing rhetoric. I don't want any rhetoric out there that takes away people's humanity, whether that be trans people or whether that be maga podcast us. I don't want dehumanizing rhetoric. But, like, hot, hot rhetoric's okay, right? Like competitive rhetoric. Talking about what you want the country to be and speaking passionately about it and criticizing the other side is. Is good. Like, Donald Trump deserved criticism. All any politician deserves criticism. And that debate over the rhetoric, to me, overshadowed this thing of, like, this kid, that kid that tried to murder him, had an easy access to weapons, was able to go buy bullets on his way there, was able to get up on that roof and try to shoot him. That's what's not about. Everything that we've learned since about that young man was like, that attempt wasn't even really about politics. We don't know what happened with Choi Kirk, but what it was about was his easy access to munitions. And like, we live in a country, if you live in a country where we have this level of proliferation of weapons of war and. And you also have really intense political debates and intense speech, and there's no curtailing of those. Of access to those weapons. There's no even limiting factor that makes people breathe 24 hours or think about it or, you know, then, like these things like that, Like, I just think that underscores a big part of why we're here. And anyway, I just wanted to say that because I think that in these moments, you know, we've kind of given up in this country, I guess, on trying to resolve that. A lot of the politicians have. And I don't think. And I don't want to. I don't think that's smart. And I think that unfortunately we can fix a lot of the other things, but there's always going to be crazy people. And if there are crazy people who have easy access to these weapons and there's no remedy for that, be a red flag or anything else, then I don't know, man. Those two factors combined have us in a pretty bad spot. So that's all I wanted to say about that. Do you have anything else?
- [12:31]
B
No, just, you know, be good to each other out there.
- [12:36]
A
Good to each other. I do want to say, and once again, as I mentioned, I. Every year I had this joke that was, you know the movie Catch Me if youf Can.
- [12:46]
B
Yeah.
- [12:47]
A
And this joke about how Tom Hanks and Leo in that movie would see each other every Christmas. You know, it's like the gag. And they were like, one was their kind of. They were sort of counterparties in a. In a. In a fight. And some of me and Charlie saw each other for Christmas because it was when he had his big thing, and I would go and I would see him, and I texted this morning a couple of the people that worked for him. And again, it's just, like, I had deep disagreements with what they were doing at that festival, but to him and the people around him, at least some of them, like, cared about that, and they had a community, and they. And they allowed me to come in there and spar with them verbally, and. And they did so in good spirits. And. And, you know, it's just sometimes important to think about these people as actual humans. And. And I. I. In that sense, I'm. It is a scary moment for somebody who's publicly out there talking, but I'm also sad for. For the people that I met there and for his family and his kids. So I'll leave it at that. All right, everybody, we'll probably have more about this on. On the podcast tomorrow, and there's a lot of other news we'll be talking about, too, and we'll be talking to you soon.