Transcript
A (0:00)
Hey, everybody. Tim O from the Bulwark here with our publisher, Sarah Longwell. We have breaking news out of Utah. Charlie Kirk, founder of Turning Point usa, big advocate of President Donald Trump, fellow podcaster, was assassinated. He was shot and killed at Utah Valley University in Orem, Utah, a couple hours ago. Obviously, we'll have more as week goes on. But, Sarah, I'm wondering what your initial. Initial thoughts are on this.
B (0:25)
You know, it's. It's been a very hard time in our politics because the. I think what many of us feel is the existential nature of it, it leads to us, everybody feeling, like, really intense about the moment. But the idea that people are being shot and killed for their political beliefs, for being commentators, you know, it. It takes it to a different place, like a much darker place, a place that feels like rather than being people who can talk and fight and, you know, are all kind of part of the same country, trying to figure out, you know, the best way that. That we know how, which is through, like, debate and argument and, and, you know, and tough politics. But whenever people are being killed over these things, shot at, whether it's Gabby Giffords, whether it's Charlie Kirk, whether you agree with them or disagree with them, it means that we begin to live in a country where it's not. Doesn't feel as safe for people to take strong political positions, to have those conversations. And I think that that creates a devastating impact on our discourse. And, you know, I like Charlie Kirk. We've argued with him on the show. He's like, put pictures of us or video of us on his show like these. We were. We were not intellectual allies at all. But he is a young man. He's 31, with small kids. And I just feel really sad for them, for his family. And I feel, like, frightened the way that I sometimes feel now in this, all the, all of the politics where it just feels like we're moving into a moment where, like, you know, because, Charlie, here's the thing, man. You know, look, I didn't like a lot of his politics, but he was just. He was. He was out talking to people in a. In a crowd, and he was being very accessible to them, like a lot of us are. And, you know, he was mic'd up, but he was just under a little tent, and he was sort of taking all comers, right? He was taking people's questions and, and he was answering them. And I think that a lot of us put ourselves in those same kinds of situations with strangers all the time doing this stuff, and that Somebody would shoot him. I don't know. It's awful. And it makes you really just scared about the moment that we're living in. I don't know. What do you think?
A (3:03)
It's scary. I'm frightened. It's scary. A couple of thoughts to your thing. Well, just first on Charlie. He has two young kids, as you mentioned. He's a kid that just turned one, a son that just turned one. He's got a daughter that's three. I mean, those kids, like those kids deserve to have their dad. Those kids deserve to have their dad. And he should not be taken from them because somebody in a political. We don't actually know who the suspect is. I should mention the suspect is still at large. We think there was some video going around earlier of a man that was detained that. It turns out that was just kind of a gadfly that shows up a political event. So we don't actually know who the perpetrator is. But for whatever reason, for political reasons, and obviously it's political reason, it was an assassination. It wasn't a mass shooting. He shot just at Charlie. So idea that he'd be snuffed out for his political views and those kids would be denied their father and that Eric would be denied her husband is horrible. And the other thing I'll say about Charlie, to your point, and I dealt with Charlie, I went to two PUSA events, talked to him sometimes there. He knew that we disagreed. He knew that I was passionately in disagreement with him. He was somebody that would have passionate disagreements, which is what we should have in the country. I mean, as you mentioned at that event, he was doing it. And in this fucking dark moment, he was receiving a hostile question, actually, as he got shot. And the question was about mass shooting. And like, that's where we are in this country, that somebody's asking him to respond about mass shootings and he's killed while that question is asked. And that takes me to your point about people feeling free to say what they want. This is not a free country. I understand people use the term free country a lot about having gun rights in particular. But you aren't in a free country if you can't feel safe to express your views, whether they be far right or far left or in the middle or pro Trump or anti Trump. You're not in a free country if you have to feel fear to go out and have an exchange of views with people that disagree with you. And Charlie, for his, like, mistaken political views he had, was out there doing that, was trying to represent what America should be about and having a free country and having people challenge him and. And he's killed over it. And I just. I think that we are headed to a very. We're in a very dangerous place, and it's spiraling, you know, and it's not the first time we had in this country, both of us, it's kind of before our time. We've never really lived through a time of, like, mass political assassinations. We lived through a time of violence and school shootings and such. But, you know, in the 70s, this country's been through this before and come out of it. So it doesn't mean we can't come out of it. But to be in that world now again, where in addition to all the other problems that the country faces, you have this political violence that, to me, I don't. God willing, I'm wrong, but it feels like this. This is an escalating thing, right? It's like there's a view of, you know, who knows? I don't even want to put it into the universe. But, like, that other. That, that people feel like this is good, you know, that they cheer it, or that other people feel like they want retribution for it. Like, all any of those thoughts, like, to me, is just totally wrong and hateful. And I know it's very challenging given the political environment or in particular with this president. But, like, you know, we can't live in a real America, in a real country where everybody can expect to be able to live, you know, have life and have the ability to go pursue happiness and these fundamental American ideals. You can't do that if we're going to be having vigilante killings. And this is just the way. I mean, again, those attempts on Trump, there have been other examples, like you mentioned.