Bulwark Takes: "Wes Moore Calls Out Trump’s Lies" (with John Avlon)

Date: August 29, 2025
Host: Sam Stein (A)
Guest: John Avlon (B), previewing his interview with Maryland Governor Wes Moore (C)

Episode Overview

In this episode of Bulwark Takes, Sam Stein and John Avlon discuss Maryland Governor Wes Moore’s recent public clashes with Donald Trump, focusing on federal-state tensions, disaster funding, and the politicization of the National Guard. The conversation previews Avlon’s forthcoming interview with Moore, examining how different Democratic governors are navigating confrontations with Trump and how these dynamics impact governance, especially amid crises like disaster relief and public safety.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Wes Moore vs. Trump: Context and Conflict

• Social Media Clashes: Moore has recently been embroiled in public disputes with Trump, notably over disaster relief, bridge funding, and the use of the National Guard in Baltimore (00:45–01:21).
• Accusations of Pettiness: Trump is accused of denying federal resources to Maryland for political reasons, to the detriment of Marylanders (01:16–01:34).
• Lie about Endorsement: Trump falsely claimed Moore called him "the greatest president," despite audio evidence to the contrary (01:09–01:14).

2. The National Guard Controversy

• Trump’s Threat to Send Troops to Baltimore: Avlon highlights Trump’s threats to deploy the National Guard amid claims of high crime, even as Baltimore’s violent crime has fallen sharply (01:54–02:02, 02:45–03:10).
• Moore’s Response: Moore, a military veteran, finds the threat both offensive and a misuse of military personnel, for political theater (02:20–02:41, 03:10–04:22).

Wes Moore (C), on the National Guard deployments:
"For him to use the National Guard in such a theatrical way and such a frankly, just nakedly political way is just very deeply offensive.... They’re being used as these political pawns in a very cynical game." (03:14–03:40)

Moore, on cost and misuse:
"He’s now costing the American taxpayer well over a million dollars a day. And do you know what these Guard members are doing right now? They’re literally picking up trash, they’re mulching, they’re raking mulch." (04:00–04:14)

3. Democratic Governors’ Strategies for Dealing with Trump

• Varied Approaches:
  • Gretchen Whitmer: Attempts to work cooperatively with Trump, sometimes adopting a conciliatory posture (05:40–05:54).
  • Gavin Newsom: Aggressively uses media to counter Trump, even engaging in satirical trolling and extended podcast appearances (06:49–07:31).
  • Wes Moore: Described as earnest and not naturally combative; prefers direct engagement over social media theatrics (06:28–06:49).

John Avlon (B), on Moore’s style:
"West could be categorized, you know, love or not a fighter. But his… response [to] Trump… was done in that way. ‘Let’s walk together. Let me show you what we’re doing because actually it’s working.’" (06:28–06:49)

4. The Leverage of Federal Funding

• Maryland’s Dependency: The episode highlights how federal funding for things like FEMA aid or major infrastructure (e.g., the Francis Scott Key Bridge) can be used as leverage against states with Democratic leadership (07:58–08:45).
• Governors Caught in the Crossfire: Stein and Avlon discuss how every major project becomes a potential point of federal pressure, affecting millions of residents (08:00–08:45).

Sam Stein (A):
"You just want to pick and choose which ones you want to start fights with. And not to mention the fact that it’s unconstitutional." (04:44–05:00)*

5. Moore’s Principles: Balancing Toughness and Civility

• No “Mental Defense” or Overreaction: Moore seeks to remain principled without becoming either a combative figure or overly defensive; he’s not playing into Trump’s games nor ignoring the provocations (08:45–09:21).
• Refusal to Politicize National Guard: Moore concludes he will not allow Maryland’s National Guard members to be used as political tools (04:52–05:18).

Wes Moore (C):
"I will not authorize our National Guard and for our men and women to be used as political tools and political pawns, and especially in a mission that I do not deem to be mission critical or mission aligned." (05:10–05:19)

6. The Broader Challenge for Democratic Governors

• Governance Amid Hostility: The hosts reflect on the difficulties for governors in states dependent on the federal government, especially when federal aid is leveraged for political gain (10:00–10:32).
• Solutions-Oriented Leadership: Moore is held up as an example of striving for governance focused on solutions, not partisan battles (10:00–10:32).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Moore, on National Guard deployments as political theater:
  “For him to use the National Guard in such a theatrical way and such a frankly… nakedly political way is just very deeply offensive.” (03:14–03:23)

• Moore, on the real work being done:
  “They’re literally picking up trash… over a million dollars a day. That’s what these National Guardsmen are being asked to do because they’re not trained in doing municipal policing.” (04:06–04:14)

• Avlon, on confronting bullies:
  “Bullies only respect strength, and you can’t try to get in their head because that’s the moment you lose the game.” (09:10–09:20)

• Stein, on the challenges of doing good governance:
  “How do you go about doing productive, solutions oriented governance in this moment? It’s extremely difficult. Wes is trying to figure it out…” (10:05–10:23)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:00–01:21 — Introduction, context of Moore vs. Trump clashes
• 01:21–02:41 — FEMA funding, National Guard, economic challenges in Maryland
• 02:45–05:19 — [Clip] Wes Moore on National Guard deployments and Trump’s political games
• 05:20–06:49 — Moore’s temperament and approach compared to other governors
• 06:49–07:31 — Newsom’s “trolling” strategy and its effectiveness
• 07:58–08:45 — Leveraging federal resources and its impact on states
• 08:45–09:21 — Moore’s principles: avoiding either extreme response
• 10:00–10:32 — Final reflections on the importance of solutions-oriented governance

Summary

This episode provides a timely look at the escalating tensions between state and federal leadership, specifically spotlighting how Maryland's Wes Moore is navigating Trump-era challenges. Moore’s insistence on principled, non-theatrical leadership and his vocal resistance to the politicization of the National Guard distinguishes him from other high-profile Democratic governors. The previewed conversation invites listeners to consider how political posturing from the White House can directly affect the lives and governance of states, and the difficult tightrope that Democratic governors must walk—balancing federal dependency, partisan pressure, and the public good.

Full interview with Wes Moore airs Sunday at 6am.