Wes Moore Calls Out Trump’s Lies (w/ John Avlon)

Summary

Bulwark Takes: "Wes Moore Calls Out Trump’s Lies" (with John Avlon)

Date: August 29, 2025
Host: Sam Stein (A)
Guest: John Avlon (B), previewing his interview with Maryland Governor Wes Moore (C)

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Episode Overview

In this episode of Bulwark Takes, Sam Stein and John Avlon discuss Maryland Governor Wes Moore’s recent public clashes with Donald Trump, focusing on federal-state tensions, disaster funding, and the politicization of the National Guard. The conversation previews Avlon’s forthcoming interview with Moore, examining how different Democratic governors are navigating confrontations with Trump and how these dynamics impact governance, especially amid crises like disaster relief and public safety.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Wes Moore vs. Trump: Context and Conflict

• Social Media Clashes: Moore has recently been embroiled in public disputes with Trump, notably over disaster relief, bridge funding, and the use of the National Guard in Baltimore (00:45–01:21).
• Accusations of Pettiness: Trump is accused of denying federal resources to Maryland for political reasons, to the detriment of Marylanders (01:16–01:34).
• Lie about Endorsement: Trump falsely claimed Moore called him "the greatest president," despite audio evidence to the contrary (01:09–01:14).

2. The National Guard Controversy

• Trump’s Threat to Send Troops to Baltimore: Avlon highlights Trump’s threats to deploy the National Guard amid claims of high crime, even as Baltimore’s violent crime has fallen sharply (01:54–02:02, 02:45–03:10).
• Moore’s Response: Moore, a military veteran, finds the threat both offensive and a misuse of military personnel, for political theater (02:20–02:41, 03:10–04:22).

Wes Moore (C), on the National Guard deployments:
"For him to use the National Guard in such a theatrical way and such a frankly, just nakedly political way is just very deeply offensive.... They’re being used as these political pawns in a very cynical game." (03:14–03:40)

Moore, on cost and misuse:
"He’s now costing the American taxpayer well over a million dollars a day. And do you know what these Guard members are doing right now? They’re literally picking up trash, they’re mulching, they’re raking mulch." (04:00–04:14)

3. Democratic Governors’ Strategies for Dealing with Trump

• Varied Approaches:
  • Gretchen Whitmer: Attempts to work cooperatively with Trump, sometimes adopting a conciliatory posture (05:40–05:54).
  • Gavin Newsom: Aggressively uses media to counter Trump, even engaging in satirical trolling and extended podcast appearances (06:49–07:31).
  • Wes Moore: Described as earnest and not naturally combative; prefers direct engagement over social media theatrics (06:28–06:49).

John Avlon (B), on Moore’s style:
"West could be categorized, you know, love or not a fighter. But his… response [to] Trump… was done in that way. ‘Let’s walk together. Let me show you what we’re doing because actually it’s working.’" (06:28–06:49)

4. The Leverage of Federal Funding

• Maryland’s Dependency: The episode highlights how federal funding for things like FEMA aid or major infrastructure (e.g., the Francis Scott Key Bridge) can be used as leverage against states with Democratic leadership (07:58–08:45).
• Governors Caught in the Crossfire: Stein and Avlon discuss how every major project becomes a potential point of federal pressure, affecting millions of residents (08:00–08:45).

Sam Stein (A):
"You just want to pick and choose which ones you want to start fights with. And not to mention the fact that it’s unconstitutional." (04:44–05:00)*

5. Moore’s Principles: Balancing Toughness and Civility

• No “Mental Defense” or Overreaction: Moore seeks to remain principled without becoming either a combative figure or overly defensive; he’s not playing into Trump’s games nor ignoring the provocations (08:45–09:21).
• Refusal to Politicize National Guard: Moore concludes he will not allow Maryland’s National Guard members to be used as political tools (04:52–05:18).

Wes Moore (C):
"I will not authorize our National Guard and for our men and women to be used as political tools and political pawns, and especially in a mission that I do not deem to be mission critical or mission aligned." (05:10–05:19)

6. The Broader Challenge for Democratic Governors

• Governance Amid Hostility: The hosts reflect on the difficulties for governors in states dependent on the federal government, especially when federal aid is leveraged for political gain (10:00–10:32).
• Solutions-Oriented Leadership: Moore is held up as an example of striving for governance focused on solutions, not partisan battles (10:00–10:32).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Moore, on National Guard deployments as political theater:
  “For him to use the National Guard in such a theatrical way and such a frankly… nakedly political way is just very deeply offensive.” (03:14–03:23)

• Moore, on the real work being done:
  “They’re literally picking up trash… over a million dollars a day. That’s what these National Guardsmen are being asked to do because they’re not trained in doing municipal policing.” (04:06–04:14)

• Avlon, on confronting bullies:
  “Bullies only respect strength, and you can’t try to get in their head because that’s the moment you lose the game.” (09:10–09:20)

• Stein, on the challenges of doing good governance:
  “How do you go about doing productive, solutions oriented governance in this moment? It’s extremely difficult. Wes is trying to figure it out…” (10:05–10:23)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:00–01:21 — Introduction, context of Moore vs. Trump clashes
• 01:21–02:41 — FEMA funding, National Guard, economic challenges in Maryland
• 02:45–05:19 — [Clip] Wes Moore on National Guard deployments and Trump’s political games
• 05:20–06:49 — Moore’s temperament and approach compared to other governors
• 06:49–07:31 — Newsom’s “trolling” strategy and its effectiveness
• 07:58–08:45 — Leveraging federal resources and its impact on states
• 08:45–09:21 — Moore’s principles: avoiding either extreme response
• 10:00–10:32 — Final reflections on the importance of solutions-oriented governance

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Summary

This episode provides a timely look at the escalating tensions between state and federal leadership, specifically spotlighting how Maryland's Wes Moore is navigating Trump-era challenges. Moore’s insistence on principled, non-theatrical leadership and his vocal resistance to the politicization of the National Guard distinguishes him from other high-profile Democratic governors. The previewed conversation invites listeners to consider how political posturing from the White House can directly affect the lives and governance of states, and the difficult tightrope that Democratic governors must walk—balancing federal dependency, partisan pressure, and the public good.

Full interview with Wes Moore airs Sunday at 6am.

Transcript

[A]

Hey, everybody, it's Sam Stein, managing editor at the Bullock. I'm joined by my bud John Avlon, who is coming fresh from a interview with Wes Moore, Governor of Maryland. We're here to talk about that and I guess sort of just how Democratic governors are handling Donald Trump in this moment. John, thanks so much for doing this. Really appreciate it.

[B]

Totally, man.

[A]

Just to tee up the audience, we're going to give them a little bit of a clip, a preview clip of your interview. The full thing is coming out on Sunday. What time?

[B]

Roughly 6am is when it posts.

[A]

All right, nice. Okay, so tell me about Wes. How did it go? What did you guys talk about? I know this came in the midst of this kind of tension he has with Donald Trump, where Donald Trump is going after him, threatening him around bridge money. Just give us the lay down here.

[B]

Yeah. So, you know, Westmore is a very engaging, high energy, kind of earnest guy and he's really been rolling up his sleeves as governor for first elected office, running for re election right now. But we had scheduled this a while ago, but in the last couple of days he's been in some very public tiffs with Donald Trump via on social media, Trump at one point in one of his interminable cabinet meetings saying he called him the greatest president of my lifetime, which then the tape existed.

[A]

The tape did exist. Yes.

[B]

So we have the receipts and spoiler alert, Trump lied. But what he told me was, is that, is that, you know, Trump has been incredibly petty in ways that hurt the people of Maryland. Right. So, I mean, denying FEMA funding for flooding and major disasters. There's a fight over the FBI building which had been authorized by Congress and then was rescinded. You know, look, you know, 12,000 Marylanders lost their jobs because of Doge and other cutbacks and yet still they've lowered the unemployment rate point lower than the national average. What was really striking though is, is, is the fight over, you know, Trump threatening to send troops to Baltimore.

[C]

Right.

[B]

As it turns out. I mean, violent crime and homicides are down, you know, 30% or more in Baltimore. And, and you know, I think Wes understands that, you know, Democrats need to be tough on crime, but that this is, is, is, is sort of a dangerous despotic theatrics.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And he, as a guy who served, says, look, the National Guard troops are being misused, they're being mismanaged and I'm not going to have it happen on my watch with, with the National Guard, of whom he serves as commander in chief. So very insightful. Very interesting, you know, insight into how you, you navigate this. But Wes isn't quite doing the Gavin Newsome of trolling on social, but he's punching back.

[A]

Yeah, well, let's watch, let's watch the clip. And I have some thoughts on the other end of it.

[B]

I want to start off by talking about a tussle you've been in with President Trump. Not, not, not the, not the social media fights, but his sort of threatening to send the National Guard into Baltimore, which I just noticed an article in the Guardian today. Violent crime is at an all time low in Baltimore. Murder rates been cut around 40% since 2020. So what do you think he's talking about?

[C]

Honestly, I'm deeply offended by what he is doing and personally offended as someone who, unlike the President of the United States, has actually served and served in combat, led soldiers in combat. For him to use the National Guard in such a theatrical way and such a frankly, just nakedly political way is just very deeply offensive. And I think about the members of the National Guard and I feel bad for them. I feel bad for their family members. I feel bad that they're being used this way, that they're being used as these political pawns in frankly, a very cynical game that the President of the United States is doing. Because this idea of deploying the National Guard inside of our American cities, it is, it is, it is not sustainable. He's now costing the American taxpayer well over a million dollars a day. And do you know what these Guard members are doing right now? They're literally picking up trash, they're mulching, they're raking mulch, like over a million dollars a day. That's what these National Guardsmen are being asked to do because they're not trained in doing municipal policing. The second thing, it's not sustainable. You're not going to send the National Guard to every major American city, particularly every major American city, that the data doesn't reinforce them being there. But you just want to pick and choose which ones you want to start fights with. And not to mention the fact that it's unconstitutional. And so we're doing this game with these men and women and violating the trust with their families, violating the trust they put inside of this chain of command, and for what? And so that's why I have just been very vocal and I will continue to be very vocal in saying that this is a distraction from the fact that his policies are continuing to make everything more expensive in people's lives. And I, as the commander in chief of the Maryland National Guard and someone who actually takes that role seriously. I will not authorize our National Guard and for our men and women to be used as political tools and political pawns, and especially in a mission that I do not deem to be mission critical or mission aligned.

[A]

So, yeah, that's what sort of stood out to me because I, I happen to know Wes a little bit when our paths crossed from his punditry days. The guy is just like, I mean, he's stand up and he's also. But he's not like a pugnacious bomb thrower type. He really isn't. And so it seemed like it might be odd for him to have to punch back at Trump. And he's not Newsom. He's just not. And it got to me that I got to thinking about sort of like the different types of approaches that Democratic governors have had to take vis a vis Trump. And you have like the Gretchen Whitmer approach, which is, I'm going to try to find ways to work with the guy. I'm actually going to go into the Oval Office. I'm going to get pictured with the binder in front of my face. In the Oval Office. You have the no model, which was, maybe I could try, but ultimately I'm going to have to go toe to toe with this guy. And then you have the, you know, Wes Moore model, which is, I don't know how to define it because I thought his initial letter to Trump where he said, come walk the streets with me was not actually an attack. It was just sort of like, hey, we're doing good things here. Let me talk to you about it. But it does seem like he's being forced to be a bit more of a puncher here.

[B]

I think that's right. I think, you know, west, west could be categorized, you know, love or not a fighter. But his, his, his email is sort of response. Trump, I think, was done exactly in that way. Let's take, let's, let's walk together. Let me show you what we're doing because actually it's working. But of course, Trump, you know, anything that's not a supplicant, Trump takes, isn't it?

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

And, and so there's a limit to how you can play that game. What's interesting about Newsom is Newsom made a calculation that in the attention economy, the only way he could fight back and tell his story was to one, start playing offense on media in a way that is, is unusual for a sitting governor sitting down for three hour podcasts. With folks on the far right and the bro. Bro sphere, which is, is interesting. But then using a, a, a governor's press office to become sort of a war room with a, you know, almost satirical trolling of Trump. Well, is a ser.

[A]

It's a total satirically troll trolling of Trump. He's just putting up to them.

[B]

Yeah. And so look, I think what's interesting is that it's worked, even though I don't think it's actually Newsom's natural gear, where Wes, who's a much more earnest gu.

[C]

That means.

[B]

Right. He is a very different soul than Donald Trump. He's not like his style and his substance are just very different. It's a more difficult dance. And you got to work, especially the governor of Maryland. You know, the governors of Maryland, Virginia have the greatest proximity to D.C. as a practical matter.

[A]

Yeah, I want to talk about that because they, they, I mean, here, the issue, of course, in all of this is the dependency that states have on federal largesse. Right. And FEMA is obviously case study of this. But in West's case, of course, it's also that a huge number of his citizen, our federal government employees, and then, of course, the Francis Scott Key Bridge. There's just no way to get around the fact that Trump's going to hold that stuff over you, that he's going to use federal funding as a leverage point on you. And, you know, you see it with, like, Kathy Hochul and even governors in the Northeast with these wind projects. It's like every single thing becomes a leverage point. And I'm curious, in your conversation with, with west, did you sort of, how do you think he approaches that, knowing that at any moment there's some project or some initiative that Trump might turn against him?

[B]

I don't think he's doing it with, on, on mental defense. Right. I don't get the sense that he's constantly calibrating that this lever could be pulled that would cause him political or practical pain. Neither is he being like, you know what? Screw it. I'm just going to throw a bunch of haymakers because it's good politics. I don't think either of those things are his natural mode. And I. Look, when you're dealing with the look, what do we know? Bullies only respect strength, and you can't try to get in their head because that's the moment you lose the game. Right?

[A]

Right.

[B]

You can't start trying to anticipate everything they could do because the logic of fear is, is, is itself. That itself is corrupting So I, I don't think he's over indexing every last thing, but I think he is trying to be principled and clear, but civil when he can be. You know, he's not, you know, by his nature going to do a performative troll, but, you know, when you hear him, he's really pissed that FEMA denied aid for two cases that clearly warranted it without any explanation. And he clearly feels that Trump is playing politics, you know, just because he's trying to punish blue states that don't have supplicants.

[A]

Yeah, everything's leverage. Point man. Everything's leverage. Right. Well, listen, I'm really excited to see the full interview. It is like a fascinating moment for Democratic governors, especially in the context of what you're doing with the podcast, which is like, how do you, how do you go about doing productive, solutions oriented governance in this moment? It's extremely difficult. Wes is trying to figure it out, but people should tune in. It's coming out, the full interview. You're going to see the clip you saw just now, but you're gonna see the full interview on Sunday morning at 6:00am John, thank you, man. Really appreciate it.

[B]

Early. All right. Be well.