What Would Jesus Do? Apparently, Build a Billion Dollar Ballroom

Summary

Bulwark Takes – "What Would Jesus Do? Apparently, Build a Billion Dollar Ballroom"

Date: May 18, 2026 | Hosts: Tim Miller & Cameron Marley Caskey

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Episode Overview

On this episode of Bulwark Takes, Tim Miller and guest co-host Cameron Marley Caskey dive into several timely political stories with their signature wit and irreverence. The show centers on the intersection of political money, the wildest congressional race in Kentucky, the jaw-dropping embrace of Christian nationalism around the “Trump ballroom” push, and lingering drama in the oil markets driven by Trump’s saber-rattling with Iran. The conversation mixes political analysis, behind-the-scenes stories, and plenty of humor, providing both laughs and insight for news junkies.

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Key Discussion Points

1. The Thomas Massie Kentucky Primary: Money, Power, and Irony

[01:44 – 10:53]

• Unprecedented Spending:
  • Cameron characterizes the GOP primary to unseat Rep. Thomas Massie as “the most expensive primary in history.” Outside groups, especially pro-Israel organizations like AIPAC, have blasted unprecedented sums into the race.
  • “Here I am, rooting for the most conservative member of Congress... saying, hold strong, baby.” — Cameron Marley Caskey [02:50]
• Massie’s Persona:
  • Massie is painted as a hardcore libertarian, “the most conservative person you could possibly imagine,” famous for his self-made “debt badge” and memorable gun-themed Christmas card.
  • “This guy’s got a farm, he’s got patents... the type of guy you picture sitting on his porch, cleaning a shotgun.” — Caskey [03:27]
• Money in Politics and the Role of PACs:
  • The duo criticize the distortions of money in politics, highlighting the difference between “a PAC and AI PACs”—“there’s really only one space bar dividing the two.”
  • Debate on whether huge spending can still determine election outcomes in the age of shifting media consumption.
• Unexpected Alliances—Massie & Ro Khanna:
  • Tim and Cameron praise the unique Massie-Khanna partnership on issues like exposing the Epstein files and war powers, calling it “an outsider’s bipartisanship.”
  • “Roe and Massie offered this new model which is kind of like an outsider’s bipartisanship where they’re both basically like ‘f the leadership.’” — Tim Miller [06:15]
• The Generational Divide:
  • Massie is polling well with voters under 64 but “getting schlonged by all the senior citizens.” The outcome of this race is framed as a referendum on money in politics and broader cultural shifts.

2. The Trump Ballroom: Divine Mandate or Boondoggle?

[10:54 – 13:30]

• Senate Parliamentarian Throws a Wrench:
  • Miller explains that the Senate parliamentarian nixed Trump’s plan to fund his “billion dollar ballroom” through reconciliation, thus requiring 60 votes and bipartisan support—a significant setback.
  • “The Lord might be with Trump, but the parliamentarian is against. And as of right now, point to the parliamentarian.” — Miller [12:44]
• Christian Nationalism Parodied:
  • The show lampoons evangelical figures like Eric Metaxas for framing Trump’s ballroom as the fulfillment of “God’s divine will.”
  • “It’s hard to believe that it would take two centuries for the Lord to raise up a great man, to bring that ballroom finally to stand where it needs to stand.” — Eric Metaxas (clip) [12:28]
  • “What in Jesus’ teaching made you think that he cared about fancy ballrooms?... These people are fucking nuts.” — Miller [12:44]

3. Oil Prices and Trump’s Iran Bluster

[13:30 – 15:00]

• Market Turmoil:
  • Miller details a surge in oil prices above $107/barrel as Trump ramps up threats about Iran, including bizarrely specific threats (“If we don’t get a deal, I might skin your face... I’m going to bomb Tehran, the only city whose name I know in Iran.”).
  • Critique of Trump’s repeated, empty threats and how markets irrationally overreact despite the pattern being “embarrassing and feckless.”
• Wider Geopolitical Instability:
  • Ukrainian attacks on Russian oil refineries and general market chaos are compounding pressures.

4. Podcaster Banter and Behind-the-Scenes Insights

[08:50 – 09:51]

• Comic Relief:
  • Cameron interrupts to ask why Tim is browsing “geese Reddit” while talking about Iran and Epstein, revealing Tim’s multitasking and a running joke about guest quality on their shows.
• Real Talk About Podcasting:
  • Reflects on the challenge of finding guests who have both depth and on-screen presence.
  • “There are some people who really work on screen and have no depth and people with a ton of depth who just don’t work on screen.” — Caskey [09:26]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Money in Politics:
  “Wait a second, this is kind of fucked up. It’s kind of weird that, you know, [a] pro-Israel organization can run attack ads on a candidate for their association with ICE or can dump... dump truck money into Illinois 9.” — Caskey [04:34]

• On Massie’s Political Identity:
  “This is the most conservative person you could possibly imagine... He’s the type of guy you picture sitting on his porch cleaning a shotgun.” — Caskey [03:27]

• On Bipartisanship in the Trump Era:
  “Roe and Massie offered this new model which is kind of like an outsider’s bipartisanship where they're both basically like ‘f the leadership.’” — Miller [06:15]

• On MAGA Christian Nationalism:
  “I mean, what, the loaves and the fishes, the water into wine? That God, that God’s using his energy on Donald Trump’s ballroom right now.” — Miller [12:44]

• On Trump’s Threats and Oil Markets:
  “If we don’t have a good deal, I’m going to kill you. If we don’t have a deal, I might skin your face. If we don’t have a deal, I’m going to take the Iranian soccer team and send them to Guantanamo.” — Miller [13:45]

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Important Timestamps

• [01:44] – Cameron summarizes the spectacle and stakes of the Massie primary.
• [03:27] – Spotlight on Massie’s persona: guns, patents, the “debt badge.”
• [06:15] – Discussion on outsider bipartisanship: Massie & Ro Khanna.
• [09:51] – Tim jokes about calling your Memaw in Kentucky to support Massie.
• [10:54] – Analysis of the Senate parliamentarian’s ballroom ruling.
• [12:28] – Eric Metaxas’s “divine” justification for the Trump ballroom.
• [12:44] – Tim’s takedown of the MAGA religious narrative.
• [13:30] – Update and analysis on oil market turbulence and Trump’s Iran posturing.

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Tone and Takeaways

Miller and Caskey combine unfiltered political skepticism, informed analysis, and sardonic humor throughout. The episode skewers political excesses—be it financial arms races, MAGA idolatry, or performative brinksmanship—while cautiously hoping for new models of cross-partisan action. It’s a must-listen for anyone bemused by the headlines and looking for smart, no-BS commentary.

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Transcript

[Tim Miller]

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[Cameron Marley Caskey]

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[Cameron Marley Caskey]

we've got Tim Miller here. My name is Cameron Marley Caskey. This is the Bulwark Podcast. We got a great day of content coming for you.

[Tim Miller]

What's going on, Cameron? What are you doing here?

[Cameron Marley Caskey]

I'm spending the weekend in New Orleans with my friends Tim and Tyler and the wonderful Toulouse and we are hanging out.

[Tim Miller]

It's so good to have Cameron here. This isn't really a stupid, it's kind of like a little buddy comedy vibe. We're getting pretty close to each other, but it's been nice to have Cameron. I want to do a little weekend potpourri for everybody where I discuss a couple of topics that have caught my eye. But before I just rant to you by myself, I kind of wanted to get Cameron's take on what's happening with Thomas Massie in Kentucky because it intersects with a few interests of yours. First, you have the Gen Z child of Rand Paul screaming anti Semitic slurs at a bar at Mike Lawler.

[Cameron Marley Caskey]

And Mike Lawler isn't even Jewish. Right?

[Tim Miller]

Not Jewish. Yeah. So there's that. And his Twitter handle is tasty brew 1776.

[Cameron Marley Caskey]

That's Rand Paulson's Twitter. I mean, that's like AI generated conservative

[Tim Miller]

Twitter handle on the nose. Okay. It's also intersecting with you because you're doing some stuff for your boy Ro Khanna, who's been working with Massie on the Epstein Bill and the Iran War Powers Bill. And APAC is big in the race. So a lot of your interests are intersecting in this Kentucky congressional race. I was wondering your take.

[Cameron Marley Caskey]

It's a very fascinating thing. So for anyone who doesn't know this primary to stop Thomas Massie is now the most expensive primary in history, there is more money that has been dumped into stopping Thomas Massie than ever before. And it's kind of insane. Yeah, it's kind of infuriating because here I am rooting for the most conservative member of Congress, the member of Congress who has cast the most Republican votes. Here I am saying, hold strong, baby. If you're.

[Tim Miller]

And he doesn't believe that, like, government should exist. He thinks government should, like, basically do, like, roads and military and like, that's it. So for not even really military. That much.

[Cameron Marley Caskey]

Yeah. For anyone who isn't locked into the Massey of it all, this is the most conservative person you could possibly imagine. So much. I mean, we're talking. This guy's got a farm, he's got patents, he's. He likes. He's the type of guy who you picture sitting on his porch cleaning a shotgun.

[Tim Miller]

Well, he has the guns Christmas card. Have you ever seen that?

[Cameron Marley Caskey]

That was Massey.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I remember that, of course, because

[Cameron Marley Caskey]

I have a gun control background. And I remember seeing that and being like, this is so psychotic, little risky. And here I am being like, well, we need this man to win.

[Tim Miller]

Explain that.

[Cameron Marley Caskey]

I think it's kind of a referendum on money in politics. I think that at a time when we are reexamining money's role in politics and how much influence certain interests and organizations can have in our elections. It's interesting. We've got two groups spending a lot in elections. We've got a pack, and we've got AI PACs. And there's really only one space bar dividing the two. So it gets a little complicated. Do you take a PAC money? Crypto. Spending a ton of money. Sports betting is spending a ton of money. And I think a lot of people are looking at this and saying, wait a second, this is kind of fucked up. It's kind of weird that, you know, pro Israel organization can run attack ads on a candidate for their association with ice or can dump. Dump truck money into Illinois 9 under elect Chicago women.

[Tim Miller]

Right.

[Cameron Marley Caskey]

And I'm just like, I feel like, there's room for some transparency here, for sure. But again, Thomas Massie is really like the hardcore conservative of yesteryear. This man built like a national debt ticker. Like, how would you describe it? You know, I'm talking about.

[Tim Miller]

He's got like. It's like a lapel pin, Right?

[Cameron Marley Caskey]

Well, it's, it's, it has. We'll throw a picture of it up on the screen. Thomas Massie's beard, by the way, is doing a lot of heavy lifting. He looks pretty bad ass with the beard and pre beard, Thomas Massie, I

[Tim Miller]

just saw the ticker. He's calling it a debt badge.

[Cameron Marley Caskey]

Debt badge.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. So there's the pre beard. Thomas Massey right there with the debt badge. Yeah.

[Cameron Marley Caskey]

It's got a digital element to it. And he made it himself. He's a very. He's clearly got a lot of technological skills. I mean, he has dozens of patents which, you know, how many do you have? I don't have any patents. I have the Gen Z activism industrial complex. That's my patent.

[Tim Miller]

So we have debt man. We've seen this face now has updated the beard. Go back to the beard. What are you thinking about the beard?

[Cameron Marley Caskey]

I mean, it's just a very great beard. It's the type of beard that does a lot of work for you in politics. I think there's some people where maybe the beard is not the option.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Cameron Marley Caskey]

Other people, where I see it working either way, to be honest, I don't have an opinion on buttigieg. I think the beard looks fine. Yeah, I think I like shaved buttigieg a little more.

[Tim Miller]

I'm 50. 50 as well.

[Cameron Marley Caskey]

It's fine.

[Tim Miller]

I wrote an article last week people can check out@the board.com about. About Roe and Massie and how it showed like this different model. Like the old model of getting shit done in Washington, right. Was, you know, you, you work the inside game. You go into the Ways and Means Committee, you go do a bipartisan bill with someone on the other side, you know, and they're both establishment figures and like meet the middle and you give them some pork and they give you. Like that's how shit worked in politics, in the movies. And like there hasn't been any bipartisanship lately. Like there's basically nothing. And Rowan and Massey like offered this new model which is kind of like an outsider's bipartisanship where they're both basically like f the leadership. Like we're going to press forward on these two things. Epstein and the Iran war vote that we know that the people are for. But that's getting blocked. And I don't know, I'm kind of, like, interested by that model. And like. And like, Massey might be, like, basically the opposite of you politics wise, but, like, that is an appealing part of it for me.

[Cameron Marley Caskey]

Yeah. I mean, I think that Epstein and Iran are actually maybe the quintessential examples of the types of things that when we talk to conservatives, we can get them to say, yeah, this is too much.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Cameron Marley Caskey]

And, you know, horseshoe theory leads to a lot of people becoming crackpot maniacs. But there's also a degree to which, when you're thinking that outside the box, you can horseshoe into finding some things you agree on.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, right.

[Cameron Marley Caskey]

And a lot of Republicans. I talked to a guy pretty recently about this. A lot of Republicans wanted that isolationist Trump. They wanted that Trump who's not going to get involved with all this war. And these are people who don't necessarily listen to Bulwark or read any similar things and don't realize how bad we're getting. Fucking dog walked.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, Right.

[Cameron Marley Caskey]

But they're sick of it and they've had enough. And I think what Roe and Massey have done is recognized that not only are they gonna find these things we agree on, they're also going to do such as someone who is like a chair of the Bernie campaign and someone who wears the debt badge.

[Tim Miller]

Right.

[Cameron Marley Caskey]

So it really goes to show, a lot of things in government that don't happen that I think people want are actually not happening because there just isn't the political willpower to do it. Nobody's making people do it. So, for example, before what Roe and Massie did on the Epstein files, if you had asked me about it, I said, well, there's nothing that can be done.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Cameron Marley Caskey]

And here they are doing it.

[Tim Miller]

And in the article I read, the Polymarket was like, 11% likelihood that it was going to get released last summer.

[Cameron Marley Caskey]

I'm sorry, real quick, why do you have the geese on your laptop?

[Tim Miller]

Oh, because I like the geese.

[Cameron Marley Caskey]

Oh, you're just on geese Reddit while we're talking about Iran and Epstein.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. Can I not be on geese?

[Cameron Marley Caskey]

No, you can be on geese Reddit. For anyone who doesn't know, I'm very able to.

[Tim Miller]

I'm like, I can multitask.

[Cameron Marley Caskey]

My bad, my bad. Yeah. Fun, fun. Behind the scenes. Fypod fact. Back when Tim and I had our duo show, if there was a guest who you thought was bad, and, you know, I mean, there were some guests who I think were pretty organic on camera. And pretty fun to watch, but weren't necessarily that insightful. I mean, it's hard. Like being organic and comfortable on camera and having something insightful to say are not the same thing.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Cameron Marley Caskey]

And there are some people who really work on screen and have no depth and people with a ton of depth who just don't work on screen.

[Tim Miller]

Right.

[Cameron Marley Caskey]

And when we had a real stinker when we, you know, we can't hit them all, you know, not. Not every episode is going to be. Our only two time guest, Terry Sisson. We would be texting each other like there were multiple episodes where we were like, what the fuck do we even say here?

[Tim Miller]

We're doing our best because we want to create good content for you guys. You know, we want to make it good. All right, so Tuesday, you're with the debt badge, man. Call your MEMAW. Everybody call your MEMAW. If they live in Kentucky, 4 Massie is winning with voters under 64 and getting schlonged by all the senior citizens. And it's a problem.

[Cameron Marley Caskey]

Yeah, I think it's one of those elections that means a lot more than just the election. It's one of those elections that is a referendum on something. I think it's going to say a lot about money in politics and it's going to say a lot about spending. Because one thing that I think gets left outta certain conversations is that Harris outspent Trump, I think three to one. And the way that social media works, I think that what money and politics means and how necessary it is in certain ways, it's just shifting a little bit. So Massie's getting outspent to the gajillionth degree. And I guess we're about to learn if that still works. All right, everybody, we got a great show for you this week. Talking about some bull. I'm gonna let Tim go ahead.

[Tim Miller]

I have other people. You go do a puzzle at Toulouse. Okay, we're gon finish the potpourri with everybody. Hey, everybody, look at Cameron Caskey. Isn't it nice to have him down here with me in New Orleans? Let's chat a little bit more about what else is happening out there in the news. Two things I just wanted to talk about. One is the ballroom and the other is what we're seeing again with the spike in oil prices. All right, a couple things in the ballroom. First, we had a big ruling from the parliamentarian. The parliamentarian still matters in the U.S. senate. And basically, essentially the ruling was that they cannot do the funding for the ballroom within the Reconciliation package. The sickos who have been following this stuff closely know that reconciliation is like the one budget bill a year that the Senate can push through going around the filibuster. Based on the current cockamamie system, you can do one budget bill a year. But the elements of that bill have to fit certain rules. And the ballroom funding, it was ruled, did not qualify. And so that means that in order to get funding for his ballroom, he would need 60 votes, which means he would need Democrats and not just John Fetterman, but some other Democrats. And so that is a hiccup for Trump, at least for now. We'll see what they do next. The thing though, that I really wanted to show you about the ballroom and just about how sick the MAGA Christian nationalist movement is at this point. I wanted to show you this video from Rededicate 250 event. Let's watch.

[Cameron Marley Caskey]

It's hard to believe that it would take two centuries for the Lord to raise up a great man, to bring that ballroom finally to stand where it needs to stand. It's extraordinary. We only had to wait 200 years.

[Tim Miller]

That is Eric Metaxas. He is one of the MAGA charlatan pastors. We don't call them pastor around here, we just call them Eric. Mr. Eric. And yeah, Eric Metaxas thinks that, I guess God's divine will is being served by this ballroom. He believes that it took two centuries for the Lord to raise up a great man who could bring that ballroom finally to stand. I mean, what, the loaves and the fishes, the water into wine? That God, that God's using his energy on Donald Trump's ballroom right now. And the other previous presidents did not have the Lord God at their back because they did not successfully get the ballroom. And like, these people are fucking nuts. How do you even do this with a straight face? Who's even listening to this? Like, even the craziest evangelical MAGA has got to be like, I, I mean, I want President Trump to succeed, but I'm not praying for the ballroom. A ballroom that finally needs to stand where it needs to stand. What? What? What in Jesus teaching made you think that he cared about fancy ballrooms? And this is just a total affront. This guy is such a frickin clown. It's embarrassing, really. I saw him walking around TPUSA one time and I don't know, sometimes you can just sense it. I just looked at him and I felt like he knew there was a sadness inside him, a desperation for recognition and a sadness. That's Eric Metaxas. So the ballroom news. The Lord might be with Trump, but the parliamentarian is against. And as of right now, point to the parliamentarian. We'll see how that shakes out. The other thing I just wanted to mention here overnight, and obviously this stuff is dynamic with the markets, but Trump once again told Iran that the clock is ticking. As a result, oil prices surged to above 107 bucks a barrel. Another spike, not as high as we thought maybe it could have gone. But again, we're getting way outside that landman range of 60 to 90 bucks. Now we're back into the 107 territory. You can see the little green line popping up there. This is just going to be so hard for them to unravel. I don't know why the markets are so responsive to Trump's threats, because he's just been doing the same thing over and over again for weeks now. We almost got a deal. We almost got a deal. If we don't have a good deal, I'm going to kill you. If we don't have a deal, I might skin your face. If we don't have a deal, I'm going to take the Iranian soccer team and send them to Guantanamo. If we don't get a deal, then I am going to bomb Tehran, the only city whose name I know in Iran. Like, he keeps doing the same thing. It is unbelievably weak and humiliating. Over and over again, Trump is doing this. He is just making these empty threats that he refuses to back up. And as a result, the strait stays closed, prices keep going up. And there is, you know, in the good news side of things, there's additional pressure happening on oil prices now because of Ukraine's successful offensive, going after more oil refineries in Russia, in Moscow, because so, like, the global oil market is in tatters. And what Trump is doing right now is clock is ticking. It's like, hasn't it been ticking for months? What it was? It's just, it's so embarrassing and feckless. All right, everybody, hope you enjoyed a little weekend potpourri, a little bonus time with Cameron. Appreciate Cameron for popping on here in my, like, not made for guest studio. I'll be back obviously on Monday with Bill Crystal. I did let do a show with Cameron one time. If you want to go back in the Fypod archives, it is a classic. I'll have Bill Crystal on tomorrow discussing all this and much, much more. So see all that and subscribe to the feed. Thank you.