Bulwark Takes: When ‘Woke Meat’ Gets Banned (w/ Michael Grunwald)
Release Date: August 10, 2025
Host: Jonathan Cohn
Guest: Michael Grunwald, New York Times Bestselling Author of "We Are Eating the Earth"

Introduction

In the episode titled "When ‘Woke Meat’ Gets Banned," host Jonathan Cohn engages in a profound conversation with Michael Grunwald, a respected environmental journalist and the author of the acclaimed book "We Are Eating the Earth." The discussion delves into the intricate relationship between our dietary choices, agriculture, and the planet's health, exploring how modern eating habits contribute to environmental degradation and what can be done to mitigate these impacts.

A Walk Down Memory Lane

Jonathan Cohn (01:00):
"We are here to talk about his new book, we are eating the Earth. Yes, we are going to talk about food, what you are eating, what I am eating, what we are all eating and what we're doing to the planet."

Jonathan reminisces about his longstanding relationship with Michael, highlighting their early careers in Boston and their collaborative experiences, including Michael's stint as a restaurant reviewer at the Boston Globe. This personal connection sets a warm and engaging tone for the episode.

Introducing "We Are Eating the Earth"

Michael Grunwald (04:05):
"The book is we are Eating the Earth and essentially it's agriculture that's eating the Earth."

Grunwald introduces his book, emphasizing that agriculture is the primary force transforming the natural landscape into an agricultural one. He provides staggering statistics: agriculture consumes two out of every five acres of the planet and is responsible for a significant portion of water usage, pollution, deforestation, and greenhouse gas emissions.

The Environmental Toll of Modern Agriculture

Michael Grunwald (05:00):
"We are really converting this natural planet into an agricultural planet... trying to decarbonize the planet while you're continuing to replace forest with farms is like trying to clean up your house while you're smashing your vacuum cleaner to bits in the living room."

Grunwald paints a vivid picture of the environmental crisis, where the demand for agricultural land leads to deforestation, releasing stored carbon and diminishing the planet's capacity to absorb existing emissions. He underscores the urgency of addressing agricultural practices to combat climate change effectively.

The Beef Conundrum

Michael Grunwald (08:31):
"Cattle are the baddies. I've cut beef and lamb out of my diet because they really are the worst... cows are like 10 times worse in terms of land use and in terms of emissions."

The conversation shifts to the specific impact of beef production. Grunwald explains that cattle are exceptionally inefficient converters of plant calories to meat, requiring vast amounts of land and producing significant methane emissions. He contrasts beef with other meats like chicken, highlighting the disproportionate environmental footprint of beef consumption.

Technological Solutions and Alternative Proteins

Michael Grunwald (15:07):
"There are all kinds of technologies that are really exciting... gene editing and artificial intelligence and big data to sort of edit out some of those inefficiencies and they think they can increase crop yields 50%."

Grunwald explores the potential of technological advancements to address agricultural inefficiencies. He discusses innovations such as bio-pesticides, alternative fertilizers, and gene-edited microbes that could revolutionize farming practices. Additionally, he touches upon alternative proteins, acknowledging both their potential and the challenges they've faced in gaining widespread acceptance.

Michael Grunwald (19:00):
"Tesla didn't sell a lot of cars because they said, buy Tesla, save the planet. They made a really good product that people liked better than internal combustion engines."

Drawing parallels with the electric vehicle revolution, Grunwald expresses optimism that alternative proteins can follow a similar path. Success hinges on creating products that not only benefit the environment but also appeal to consumers in terms of taste, price, and convenience.

Political Obstacles in Reforming Agriculture

Michael Grunwald (21:28):
"It's going to be hard. Everything I write about in this book is going to be hard, right? If it was easy, somebody would have fixed it already."

The discussion takes a turn towards the political challenges of implementing necessary agricultural reforms. Grunwald emphasizes the immense difficulty in shifting policies and public sentiment, especially when entrenched interests and cultural perceptions of food play significant roles.

Michael Grunwald (26:47):
"In Denmark... they're going to promote plant-based eating, tax agricultural emissions, including from their dairy industry... It's going to help to come to a deal."

Using Denmark as a case study, Grunwald illustrates how a nation can begin to navigate the complex interplay between agricultural efficiency and environmental responsibility. Denmark's approach involves promoting plant-based diets, taxing emissions, and making strategic land-use decisions to balance production with conservation.

The Florida Example: Climate and Politics Collide

Michael Grunwald (28:16):
"In the free state of Florida, we're not allowed to decide what kind of meat we want to eat because, you know, meat grown from cells... that's woke meat."

Grunwald brings attention to the political climate in Florida, where Governor DeSantis has banned cultivated meat, dismissing it as "woke meat." This move exemplifies the deep-seated resistance against technological innovations aimed at reducing environmental impact, particularly when they intersect with cultural and political identities.

The Road Ahead: Hope Amidst Challenges

Michael Grunwald (39:21):
"The real problem is that like, Donald Trump is anti climate and he's got an entire party behind him that is, you know, they're pretending that climate change is, you know, is not a dangerous thing."

Despite the bleak landscape, Grunwald shares a glimmer of hope. He believes in the power of innovation and human resilience to adapt and overcome environmental challenges. While acknowledging the slow progress, he remains optimistic that technological advancements and incremental policy changes can steer humanity towards a more sustainable future.

Michael Grunwald (43:08):
"There's no game over for the climate. There's just like, better and there's worse and we should try to do better."

Concluding on an optimistic note, Grunwald encourages continuous effort and incremental improvements rather than succumbing to fatalism. He advocates for individual actions, such as reducing beef consumption, coupled with supportive policies to foster environmental stewardship.

Conclusion

Jonathan Cohn (43:36):
"Everyone maybe eat a little less beef and check out Mike's book, We Are Eating the Earth."

Jonathan wraps up the episode by urging listeners to consider their dietary choices and explore Michael Grunwald's insightful work. The conversation underscores the profound impact of agriculture on our planet and the pressing need for sustainable practices and informed policy-making to ensure a healthier Earth for future generations.

Notable Quotes:

• Michael Grunwald (04:05):
  "The book is we are Eating the Earth and essentially it's agriculture that's eating the Earth."

• Michael Grunwald (05:00):
  "Trying to decarbonize the planet while you're continuing to replace forest with farms is like trying to clean up your house while you're smashing your vacuum cleaner to bits in the living room."

• Michael Grunwald (08:31):
  "Cattle are the baddies. I've cut beef and lamb out of my diet because they really are the worst."

• Michael Grunwald (15:07):
  "Gene editing and artificial intelligence and big data... they think they can increase crop yields 50%."

• Michael Grunwald (21:28):
  "It's going to be hard. Everything I write about in this book is going to be hard, right? If it was easy, somebody would have fixed it already."

• Michael Grunwald (26:47):
  "Denmark... promote plant-based eating, tax agricultural emissions... It's going to help to come to a deal."

• Michael Grunwald (28:16):
  "In the free state of Florida, we're not allowed to decide what kind of meat we want to eat because meat grown from cells... that's woke meat."

• Michael Grunwald (43:08):
  "There's no game over for the climate. There's just like, better and there's worse and we should try to do better."

Final Thoughts

This episode of Bulwark Takes offers a compelling exploration of the intersection between our food systems and environmental sustainability. Through the insightful dialogue with Michael Grunwald, listeners gain a deeper understanding of the challenges and potential solutions in transforming our agricultural practices to safeguard the planet. Grunwald's blend of hard truths and cautious optimism provides a nuanced perspective essential for anyone concerned about the future of our Earth.