← Bulwark Takes
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- [00:00]
Sonny Bunch
Welcome back to the Bulwark Goes to Hollywood. My name is Sonny Bunch. I'm culture editor at the Bulwark, and I'm very pleased to be joined today by Ross Benish, who is the author of a forthcoming book, 1999, the year low Culture Conquered America and Kickstarted Our Bizarre Times. Ross is a journalist, market research analyst, and an author. Your stuff's been in Esquire, Wall Street Journal, Smithsonian Magazines. I don't think I've had any Smithsonian magazine authors on the show, so this is. This is a big win.
- [00:28]
Ross Benish
I regret that the article I wrote for them wasn't about the Insane Clown Posse.
- [00:32]
Sonny Bunch
I feel like that is a key moment in American history that needs to be somewhere in the Museum of American History. I feel like there. There has to be a bottle of Faygo at some point.
- [00:43]
Ross Benish
The, like, Woodstock 99 bottle of Faygo. Put that in the museum.
- [00:47]
Sonny Bunch
Exactly, exactly. We'll get to the ICP in a minute. We'll get to the ICP in a minute. I want to start at a place I always start when I try to explain Trump and the effect of Trump, Donald Trump, to people, which is the world of professional wrestling. Professional wrestling and Donald Trump kind of go hand in hand for a variety of reasons. Not just because Donald Trump, of course, is a member of the World Wrestling Entertainment hall of Fame, but because of the whole idea of kayfabe and creating a reality that everybody understands is not actual reality, but still enjoys living within it, which is a. Is a. Is a weird place to be for the world of politics, but really maybe not that weird. Ross, talk to me. Tell us about kayfabe and what that is. Explain kayfabe to the people.
- [01:48]
Ross Benish
Well, kayfabe is a carnival term that has been adopted by pro wrestling, basically to present something as genuine when it isn't. So just like a common example, when they say the ultimate Warrior, some parts unknown, you go along with it because that's fun and. And pretending to believe it makes it more fun to watch WrestleMania. But, like, you know, he's just a roided up guy from Venice Beach. Like, you know, he's not actually from parts unknown. So that's kayfabe. It's, you know, fakery as truth. You're along with the con, and it's something that is rooted in pro wrestling. But as you said, it's kind of everywhere right now. Like when. When Trump says he's gonna annex Canada, I don't think even, like his most loyal supporters really expect Canada to become the 51st state in the next few years, but you just roll along with it. It's. It's more fun to do that than it is to say no. Like, that's bs. I'm gonna get an argument with you about it. So, you know, kayfabe, the pro wrestling concept is kind of a guiding principle of our national politics at this point.
- [02:54]
Sonny Bunch
And I think kayfabe was a part of it even before Trump came into power, even before Trump was elected, even before the first term he was elected, because there was always this kind of push and pull of a politician will say, one that we're definitely going to ban abortion. That's the thing we're definitely gonna do. And then it never happened. And then. Or, you know, I don't know what the, what the reverse of that would be for Democrats, but there has always been kind of a, we're definitely gonna do this thing if we're elected. We've got 17 points in our platform, and that's what's gonna happen. And then it never did. And I do think part of Trump's appeal is to both revel in and expose that. Right. I do think that there's an acknowledgement of the kayfabe, which was the thing that helped World Wrestling Entertainment explode from, like, kind of a niche thing to a much larger part of the. Part of the entertainment firmament.
- [03:58]
Ross Benish
Yeah, Trump's definitely playing on. I mean, there's a cynicism among voters when you've been told enough times that something is gonna happen, but it is. You know, we're gonna protect working class people. We're gonna give everyone free health care. Of course you don't. So when he comes along, to some people, maybe he's not doing something a whole lot different than what they've been told before. But, yeah, he also runs with it. Like, there was. It was one of his meetings with Zelinsky recently where, like, a reporter said, do you still believe this about him? And he's like, I didn't say that. I said that. I guess I said that. Like, he just, he doesn't even take himself too seriously, even though he's the president, United States. And his words have a lot of meaning. You know, he just kind of rolls with whatever. Seems like the thing people will buy at that moment, which is a lot like how attitude was that attitude era was programmed.
- [04:46]
Sonny Bunch
Yeah. I want to read this passage from your book because I think it is important here and helps kind of understand right here, again from your book, the phrase used to explain Trump's appeal is that, quote, the press takes him Literally, but not seriously. His supporters take him seriously, but not literally. End quote. It's a distillation of kayfabe, where staged events produce different meanings for fans who buy in and, and haters who don't. And I do think that, again, I think this is an important way to understand Trump. Because you mentioned the Canada thing, right? The Canada thing is a perfect example of this. Because if you, a rational person, hear Donald Trump talking about annexing Canada, you say, well, he can't do that. And also, it's dumb and bad to say that. Like, the President can't be going around talking about how the United States is going to annex other countries.
- [05:35]
Ross Benish
It would hurt Republicans if it actually ever did happen.
- [05:39]
Sonny Bunch
First of all, just on a pure partisan politics level, it makes no sense. But also, but also, just like, it's bad for national relations, it's bad for trading partners. Like, it's one thing to, like, kind of politely tease the Canadians, but then to, you know, to say, we're going to take you over and whatever is a whole different thing. If you say this, if you say this to Trump supporters, if you make this case, they start rolling their eyes and being like, oh, look at, look at the scold over here. Look at no Fun Johnny. He's, you know, he doesn't get it. He doesn't get the bit. And I'm sorry, that drives, that drives me insane because I actually understand where they're coming from. Being a pro wrestling person. But also, like, I, you, you, you also can't have that. You can't. You, you, you. It's, it's this perfect defense where you neutralize the criticism by making the criticizer look like no Fun scold. I don't know how to fight against that.
- [06:37]
Ross Benish
It's, it's tough to fight against that. I mean, it's like people who are outraged in the 90s about some of the skits that they ran in Raw. And yeah, I would have been on the other side saying, they're not actually going to castrate Val Venus. Okay, it's just all fun and games here. But when it's like foreign relations, we should presumably take that more seriously than we take pro wrestling, but I'm not convinced that we do. But this goes beyond, well beyond Trump. I mean, like, Alex Jones and Hulk Hogan have made differences between their character in their shows and their real life person when they're in court. Like, when they're in court, they're like, what I said is not like what I believe. I'm just a radio entertainer. I'M just a pro wrestler talking about my penis on Howard Stern. But when they're out there doing it, they're presenting it as, like, the real thing. So that's a concept that I think is difficult to get people to buy into if pro wrestling wasn't so popular.
- [07:33]
Sonny Bunch
Yeah. And the difference between. What's the phrase, the difference between a mark and a smart mark. Right. Which is there are people who listen to Alex Jones and, like, really believe all of the things he's saying. Right? There are people. Then there are people who watch and listen to Alex Jones as kind of a form of entertainment. And trying to separate those two things is very difficult. Is very difficult to do. It's very difficult to make people understand, I think just in the general public, but also, like, it's. It's hard to figure out what. What the, what the actual end result of something like that is on a society where you have half. Half of the audience is, like, really into it and really buys it, and half of it is like, ah, look at this silliness. But it's fun. I, I don't. I don't know what, how we're supposed to handle that, how we're supposed to navigate that as a society.
- [08:27]
Ross Benish
And it's tough when, like, people like that actually hold positions of authority. I guess one thing, if it's a podcaster, but, you know, when the, if the health secretary is saying crazy stuff, you don't know where to sit on it. Like, that could, that could be, not to use the term problematic, because I think that's a bullshit term. But that could present some problems.
- [08:47]
Sonny Bunch
It's, It's. It's a. It's a real problem. It's a. It's a real issue. And, you know, part of this all goes back to. There's, There's a. Earlier in the book, you talk about the rise of reality TV and the desire to be famous for fame's sake. You know, once upon a time, fame was a byproduct of another. Another successful.
- [09:07]
Ross Benish
You didn't want to have you famous. Like, you just want to make your movies. You don't want people to follow you around. Now. Now, like, you turn the camera outward and you're like, look at this crazy thing I'm doing. Please give me all the attention and clout for my sex tape.
- [09:19]
Sonny Bunch
Right, Exactly. And that is. And that, that, that does mark a real shift in. Again, I'm trying to. I'm. I'm trying to tie this back to politics a little bit, because this is, you know, a Politics website. But it, it does, I think go a long way toward explaining the thesis. The central idea of your book. You know, we have this weird moment in 1999, really, like the whole like late 90s, early 90s.
- [09:44]
Ross Benish
Oh yeah, you could write a solid book on 97 or whatever.
- [09:47]
Sonny Bunch
You could pick, you pick any, any, any, any year in this time period. But it's general shift from this, this moment where like fame is a bad thing that you kind of struggle against to fame is, is a good thing in and of itself because it brings attention to me to fame brings attention to me. And now I am in charge of the faa. Like that is, that's a real, that's a real kind of straight line that we see sketched out here, right?
- [10:15]
Ross Benish
Well, look at the most like cartoony reality type show person I think of is actually George Santos, who no longer is in office. Like in the 90s. That would be like, look at this guy. Like he's fun and zany and like he likes to give the sass back. He'd be a great real world cast member. But like now he's in Congress using funds for like Botox and God knows what else on his, on his Hamptons vacations and he doesn't care. Like he gets caught. Like he just makes cameos about it, like, you know, making crazy birthday wishes for people in exchange for cash. Like, I see him as like a descendant of the reality people that blew up in the 90s. But instead of just staying on reality TV, these creatures are incongruous.
- [11:03]
Sonny Bunch
And you see it, you definitely see it. I mean, look, again, I, maybe it's just because this is the world in which I live. I feel like you see this on the right more than on the left at the moment. Certainly at the moment. You know, somebody like Nancy Mace, who exists to kind of create waves on social media, could not point you to a piece of legislation that Nancy Mace has, you know, achieved. But that sort of, that sort of, that's really pretty passe. Thinking about the world of a politician in those terms. Why is that? Why has, why has the right, which for so long has been so kind of filled with antipathy for celebrity and you know, the Hollywood blah, blah, blah has kind of devolved into this real reality show centric style of politics.
- [11:57]
Ross Benish
You could say they're just better at doing this. Like is the Democrats don't have any, you know, one of these cartoony characters like Dr. Oz or Trump or George Santos that they've been able to put forward. I mean, they're probably searching for one. The public doesn't give a shit about sanctimony. You know, like that's one of my main takeaways from the 90s is all them, the moral lecturing about pro wrestling and Jerry Springer just actually elevated their ratings. It made people want to tune in and see the shock and outrageous. They don't want trigger warnings on their shows. They want to watch the stuff that's considered offensive. I think the right has leaned into that and put some of these people forward and like Democrats have been a little more pearl clutchy about it, you could say. Like they're the ones who are standing up for values. But are they?
- [12:48]
Sonny Bunch
Yeah, yeah. No, no, I think that's, I think this is basically right. And what's, what's interesting is kind of the role reversal here because in this, in this period of time, in the late 80s through, through the 90s, you know, the right was pretty regularly, particularly the religious right. You know, they were the ones saying like, we need morals in office. This Bill Clinton character, he's no good, he's bad for the kids. And that has flipped almost 180.
- [13:17]
Ross Benish
Well, in the 90s too, like the right, like, I mean the left had like Jerry Springer wanted to run for governor. Jeffrey Figar, who was like Jack Kevorkian's lawyer and he was a lawyer in all these other high profile cases, won the Democratic nomination for governor in Michigan. They had some of those types of figures, but they, the old school party pushed them away. They didn't want their baggage. But Republicans tried to push Trump away and then he conquered them anyways. And then more people like that have followed him.
- [13:48]
Sonny Bunch
And this gets to a key thing, I think, which is that there is a difference in the voter sets. I think, I think Democrats are less interested in that type of candidate than Republicans have shown themselves to be for the more celebrity driven candidacies, I think a little bit.
- [14:07]
Ross Benish
And you know, when most pro, most of the pro wrestler politicians have been Republicans too, like there's been, a lot of, most of them have run unsuccessfully, but there's been a lot of wrestlers who have like ran for office. The most notable one is Jesse Ventura becoming governor of Minnesota. Or you could say Linda McMahon now, you know, former CEO of WWF, being Department of Education secretary. But like it's very rare that a pro wrestler runs for office will be anything other than a Republican. And that's just kind of, I feel like that is just part of, that's a broader trend where if an entertainer runs for office, they run Republic. Even Arnold Schwarzenegger, who probably wouldn't fit into today's Republican Party, was a Republican governor of California. There haven't been like Clay Aiken ran for office and didn't do anything. You know, like the Democrats just haven't had that figure. I don't, I don't know, maybe Democrats tend to be like, this could sound smug, but they tend to be more college. Like they're of the college educated party at the moment. That's been written about a lot. I don't know if those types of people don't go for that candidate, but it's proven to be a successful formula for the Republicans of the last like six years.
- [15:17]
Sonny Bunch
Yeah, of course, we, you forgot to mention Kane. The, the mayor, Glenn, Glenn Jacobs. Is that his name? Is the mayor a mayor in Tennessee somewhere, which is, you know, good, good for him. Let's, let's, let's talk about I again. I find this all fascinating. As somebody who grew up watching wrestling in the 90s, who lived through this, the same attitude era, the Monday Night wars, etc, etc, watching all of this spill over into the world of politics has been, has been interesting. And another area where there's been some spillover is the Insane Clown Posse. And first off, you are part of the ICP faithful. Is that. Am I wrong?
- [16:03]
Ross Benish
Can you call me a Juggaloa?
- [16:05]
Sonny Bunch
I can call you a Juggalo.
- [16:06]
Ross Benish
I don't want to like be a poser. You know, I don't have like a Hatchet man tattoo on my neck or like a ICP hockey jersey in my closet. But I do genuinely enjoy the, the 90s ICP Joker Card albums. Like, like, I love Great Malenko, Amazing Jackal Brothers, Riddle Box. I've gone to a few other shows, so I'm definitely a fan and I will accept the designation of Juggalo. But I, I don't want to, you know, for the hardcore Juggalos, I'm not as hard as you guys. I don't want to pretend to be something I'm not.
- [16:39]
Sonny Bunch
Yeah. And that's fair. I think we want to be. We want to. I don't want to offend any of the Juggalos either. That is the last thing in the world that I want to do. But could you just explain? All right. Explain. To explain to audiences who might not be familiar with the Insane Clown Posse other than.
- [16:56]
Ross Benish
So the Bulwark doesn't cover the Insane Clown Posse too often.
- [17:00]
Sonny Bunch
We've not sent anybody to the Gathering yet. I could maybe, maybe we can make that happen next year, but we're gonna work on that.
- [17:09]
Ross Benish
O.
- [17:10]
Sonny Bunch
So, so, Ross, what. What is the insane clown policy? Explain. Explain them to the listener.
- [17:16]
Ross Benish
Well, they're a rap duo that emerged in the 90s, and they use, like, horror movie theatrics to promote their gimmick. So, like, they paint their faces like clowns. They, you know, all their songs have, like, murder and voodoo and magic and witches and all sorts of crazy stuff in it. They very much believe in an afterlife. They talk about Shangri La and a lot of their music, but it's like, it's very kitschy. And in the 90s, it was viewed as more, like, menacing. And they were certainly, like, outcasts of the music industry. So they blew up because this, you know, group that's like, their, their albums are like, you know, one song's about, like, keeping your teacher's head in your book bag after you cut it off, and the next song's about, like, necrophilia. You know, it's like, stuff that makes, like, a 10 year old laugh, which is what I was doing at the time. They were on Disney's album label, and Disney kicked them off before the album came out. And that, like, just gave them so much support because it's like, you want to fight the man, you know? And that helped transform them into this, like, national curiosity where they've remained. They've never gotten huge. Like, they've never, like, been a band that's gonna, like, sell out football arenas or even basketball arenas. They do small shows for, like, a few hundred people, maybe a thousand people. That's sustained them for. For 30 years. They have a really intense group of fans called Juggalos. So, you know, ICP fans aren't just like. Well, first off, ICP isn't on the radio. I was gonna say. They're not just like, oh, I like ICP when it comes on the radio. No, they're, like, into it, you know, like, they have hundreds of dollars, maybe thousands of dollars worth of merch. Like, they, their, their. Their friends come from other concerts on the show. They have, like, a sense of life and community built around the band, and that's allowed them to have, like, a religious following that sustains their career. Even though they never got super huge. They've used, like, niche spiritual devotion to sustain themselves far longer than bands that were much bigger at their peaks.
- [19:22]
Sonny Bunch
Yeah, no, and the way specifically that they have. They have kind of done this is by leaning into that outsider. I want to pull up just one thing that you wrote about here in the book. Hold on. Let me get to my dog ear and kind of, again, tie it to the rise of Trump, because I do think it is. I think it is interesting the way in which the ICP said, these people look down on us. And so we will be outcasts together, we will be loners together, which is.
- [19:58]
Ross Benish
We'Re gonna wear a shirt that says world's most hated band. The FBI said we're a gang. We're gonna, like, be proud to be gang related. We. You make fun of us. Well, we actually like ICP more because you make fun of the way we look and dress. We don't give a damn about broader culture, for sure.
- [20:16]
Sonny Bunch
And I think that is. I mean, again, I think this is perfect, right? So, again, I just want to read from the book here. Quote, it's common for evangelical Trump voters to proudly wear merchandise with deplorables printed on it. The implied message is that if you are getting mocked or mistreated for your faith or political stance, that you are on the righteous path. End quote. And I do think that that is. I. Again, I cannot help but feel that this is the. This is the. One of the real linchpins to understanding this whole. The whole Trump phenomenon is that there is an outsider, insider status here, which is to say you have said that we are no good. We are. We're. We're deplorable. We're, you know, we're a gang, whatever, and fine, we will be. And here he's our guy, and he speaks to us, and we will back him no matter what.
- [21:09]
Ross Benish
Yeah, well, to put it in another terms, like Rob Harvilla, he hosts a podcast about 90s music. He says you can learn as much from a band about who runs away from them as you do, is who runs towards them, whether it's, you know, ICP fans or Trump supporters. I think you could say, like, a similar thing. The people who are mocking you or, you know, giving you disdain define your movement as much as those who support it. You almost want to embrace it more because, like, well, the people who you perceive as being on the wrong end of the society are the ones mocking you. Like, you know, look at those eggheads and all those coastal elites mocking us. That actually makes us. That makes his buy in harder. And ICP is not Trump supporters. They actually endorsed Harris. They don't really have any, like, partisan politics. That's not something that's a part of their music. So I don't want to say they're. They're Republican by any means, but it's a Similar sentiment of like leaning into your notoriety and like you actually when someone comes after you, someone who's more credentialed from like the upper crust of society, that's not actually attack, that becomes ammo for your followers to get behind you even more. It's like every attack against you is a rallying cry in support of you in the perception of your fans.
- [22:29]
Sonny Bunch
And that was that. That was a funny thing that kind of jumped out to me because I had, I had always just kind of assumed that the ICP fan base, which is kind of, you know, lower middle class, Midwest based. Right. I feel like that's.
- [22:45]
Ross Benish
You're describing me right there. I mean, that's, I'm the demographic and.
- [22:49]
Sonny Bunch
Like that feels, I'm just describing, not saying judgmentally. That is a segment of the vote that Donald Trump has carried in both, I think, in probably all three of his victories. And for ICP to come out and say, no, no, we're not Trump, we don't like him, he's bad, he's biased, he's bigoted, we don't like that, we love all people, et cetera, et cetera is very. Is fascinating to me. Is fascinating to me. And it does kind of there, there are these two competing, I don't know, culture clashes or even cult of personality clashes that seem intention there, but I guess it seems it works out for everyone.
- [23:34]
Ross Benish
Yeah, I don't think they got a whole lot of pushback for doing that. And I don't know if it ultimately mattered a whole lot. They certainly didn't swing the election. That didn't end up being the endorsement. The ICP vote got Harris over the top or anything.
- [23:49]
Sonny Bunch
No, it didn't do much. Again, I just find this all fascinating because like you say, this is not a political thing. It's not like the ICP vote is, is crucial, but it is, it is culturally very similar. It is, it is this idea of if you're not, if you're not with us, you're against us, and if you're against us, then we are with this other person even more. Which is, which is just fascinating.
- [24:22]
Ross Benish
And I don't think, like whether it's a Trump or a religious movement, I don't think any of these, like, groups that do the, or like marketing like ICP does. I don't think they sat there and like studied the joker card albums and said, like, we're gonna appeal to our constituents the way ICP appears to Juggalos. I just noticed similarities is all. You know, they, they're almost Coincidental, probably.
- [24:43]
Sonny Bunch
Yeah. Well, let's. Let's talk about a. Let's talk about putting this book together because it is interesting, you know, some of the strands you draw between, say, Beanie Babies and Pokemon, which are both kind of came to prominence in the late 90s. Beanie Babies, of course, have, you know, exploded and disappeared. And, you know, they're essentially gone now, except as kind of items of historical curiosity. The occasional Zach Galifianakis movie. But then you have Pokemon, which not only has continued to exist, but thrives, is an enormous business. You know, I have two young kids. One of them occasionally says, can we play Pokemon? And I'm like, no, because we don't have any Pokemon cards. I don't know how to play Pokemon. But the. But like it. What was it that allowed the one to exceed while the other kind of disappeared and failed? And what does that. What does the success of the one over the other say about our moment?
- [25:38]
Ross Benish
Yeah, so I say that Beanie Babies are like the excesses of capitalism and Pokemon is more like a status quo. And that sounds like a really stupid thing to say, so I'll try to explain what I mean by that. So Beanie Babies were just like one product. They were just the little plushie. They didn't do a multimedia barrage. Ty Warner, the founder of the company that made Beanie Babies, actually turned down, like, all licensing opportunities. He could have made TV shows and video games and all sorts of stuff in the late 90s if he wanted. He just wanted to make it be that stuffed toy. When that market crashed, it was basically over. I mean, Beanie Babies exist now, but they're like just licensed products. Like you'll find, like Marvel Beanie Babies in Walgreens. They're doing very little sales volume compared to what they did in the 90s. It was a fad. That's really what it was. It was a fad where people lost their minds and use children's toys as financial speculation instruments. It was a fad like some of those dot com bubbles, like some of those dot com companies that appeared in the late 90s during the dot com bubble, where they blew up real quick and then they collapsed even harder than they blew up and never to be heard from again. Pokemon is like a more successful operation of a capitalistic enterprise because they are constantly innovating. Like, Pokemon came into US in 99 with a barrage of products and they all interrelated to each other and they like fed onto each other. So you could learn more about that universe and expand deeper if you play the video game than if you just watch the anime. But then like the anime and video game also related to the playing cards and the movie and the soundtrack to the movie. And so all these products, of course they're just trying to get more money. Gotta catch em all. I mean that's like the best slogan of. That's like the best slogan for capitalism you could ever come up with. It's gotta catch em all. But they made a really deep enriching universe for their fans that they didn't stop like disrupting. Like look at Pokemon Go. I know it's a little old now, but that was a huge innovation of using ar. There's Pokemon Smile now like to brush your teeth. Pokemon Sleep. They, they aren't done at all. Like they're going to keep adapting to the times and pushing more stuff which is like what successful companies do. Beanie Babies at the peak was probably as hot as Pokemon. But like they just did the one thing in the flash in the pants like Beanie Babies is like, like cosmo.com youm don't. You probably never even heard of it, but it was huge in 1999 and ran a Super bowl ad before it blew up. Pokemon's like Amazon. They emerged from the dot com bubble and just made more stuff that people wanted and got really creative about it. And now they're raking in billions. They're one of the biggest IPs in the world still 25 years later, which is remarkable.
- [28:25]
Sonny Bunch
Yeah, it is wild. I mean it was slightly after my time, so I was never really into it. But again, to hear my son and his friends talk about Pokemon still, I'm like, oh, this is really.
- [28:38]
Ross Benish
And they're like a generation removed from its inception, right?
- [28:41]
Sonny Bunch
Yeah, yeah. I mean two, I mean they're, you know, it's, it's, it just keeps going. It keeps going. And another, another element that has kind of kept going and expanded of course is the mainstreaming of pornography into the culture, which is you, you have a chapter on that. And it is again, it's fascinating to have lived through this moment where everything kind of changes about the, the acceptability and the accessibility of this stuff. Thanks in part to the Internet. And that's the real point here, is that the Internet makes everything more accessible, gives you access to more of works.
- [29:25]
Ross Benish
In two ways though. Like the Internet makes porn more accessible. But in the early 90s, porn helped make the Internet more accessible. Like video chats and credit card purchasing and like affiliate marketing, tracking consumers. Online pornographers did that Way before mainstream businesses did. They were doing that like the early 90s.
- [29:43]
Sonny Bunch
And I think you see some of that in the current rise of or I mean really dominance of OnlyFans. Right. Which gives you, which creates this one on one relationship sort of thing with, with whoever the, you know, object of your affection is. Of course it's all fake. It's not like it's not, you know.
- [30:06]
Ross Benish
You mean she doesn't really love me.
- [30:08]
Sonny Bunch
It's all AI chat generated. You know, I don't. There's outsourced to somebody else responding to all the emails. But I like it is. It is that. That's another sign of where things are. I think people want to have relationships with their content creators regardless of whatever the medium is, you know, pornography, whatever music, art, politics, magazine writing, etc. Etc. You, if you subscribe to a substack, you want to be able to email the person and hey, what's, what's the deal with this? And get a response.
- [30:40]
Ross Benish
Yeah, it's participatory culture and porn is adapted to that very strongly. In addition to OnlyFans, there's like some of these, I don't want to call them actresses. I'll just say porn stars. You know, they'll sell the products that are used in their shoots and they'll have like meet and greets and like all sorts of things that actually make it more personal rather than just digitized. Because digitized they're competing with free. Like I'm amazed with the revenue some of these OnlyFans creators make because I'm like, you guys realize how much is available for free. Like you just what are you doing? Like why are you paying so much for. Only fans just like go to pornhub, but they're looking for something else rather than just watching the video. And that that relationship is just going to continue to evolve. It'll be interesting to see how they get around age verification requirements though, because that seems like that's coming more, more nationally. And that's the other interesting thing about porn is that it's always at the heart of every free speech battle over a new emergent technology. So like when the Internet's created the first attempts to regulate its content and censor it. Communications Decency act is around porn access and now we have the age verification and there'll be something else after that. It's really a fascinating industry that like innovates in the shadows and I don't think we study it as much because it's so disreputable.
- [32:07]
Sonny Bunch
Yeah, no, I think That's. That's probably true. All right. I. That was everything I wanted to ask. Closing on the porn note. That's what I. That's how I.
- [32:16]
Ross Benish
You wanted to close on the money shot?
- [32:17]
Sonny Bunch
I wanted. No, that's. Oh, God. All right. Thank you, Ross. No, but I do always like to close by asking if there's anything I should have asked if there's anything we should have discussed on this show that you think people should know either about your book or our. Our bizarre times.
- [32:35]
Ross Benish
Just one small thing is that one of my takeaways in the book is that every form of youth entertainment goes through a panic at some point. In the 90s, it was video games. Before that, you know, it was rock and roll, heavy metal, jazz, movies, radio, the printed novel. If you want to go back, like, far enough. And now it's curious to, like, see the way social media is talked about by people our age and older. It was primarily consumed by young people. Are we gonna go through a. A new panic with tick tock bands and other stuff where we're really afraid of the content our kids are consuming? And 20 years down the road, our fears will seem passe, perhaps. Just like the fears over video games in the 90s kind of seem crazy right now. If you look back at them, you.
- [33:28]
Sonny Bunch
Can go all the way back to Plato. Plato was very opposed to plays.
- [33:33]
Ross Benish
I didn't know that.
- [33:33]
Sonny Bunch
Corrupting the youth. Corrupting the youth. It's that I actually had to look it up just now. I wanted to make sure I didn't confuse Plato and Aristotle. It's very important. You don't want to. I don't want to get yelled at by my bosses, and they would. Ross, thank you for being on the show again. The name of the book is 1999, the year low culture conquered America and kickstarted our bizarre times. I think it's a fun trip down memory lane for some of us, maybe a terrifying glimpse into the past and the future for some others. But, Ross, thanks for being on the show today.
- [34:06]
Ross Benish
Hey, good to be here.
- [34:07]
Sonny Bunch
And my name again is Sunny Bunch. I'm culture editor at the Bulwark, and I will be back next week with another episode of the Bulwark Goes to Hollywood. We'll see you guys then.