Why MTG’s Chaos Makes Her Useful

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Bulwark Takes

Episode: Why MTG’s Chaos Makes Her Useful
Date: November 17, 2025
Hosts: Sam Stein (B), JVL (C)

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Main Theme & Purpose

This episode dissects the political persona and motivations of Marjorie Taylor Greene (MTG), focusing on her recent break with Donald Trump and what her erratic, often chaotic authenticity means for national politics. The discussion explores whether her sincerity makes her a more genuine — and thus potentially more productive — figure to engage with, compared to more transactional politicians.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

MTG’s Origin Story & Sincerity

• Biographical Breakdown ([01:10]-[03:59]):

  • MTG was "born rich" in Georgia, raised Catholic, married early, became CFO of her family’s construction company, then left in her 30s due to existential dissatisfaction.
  • She became heavily involved in CrossFit, then Facebook, where she immersed herself in right-wing conspiracy circles.
  • Her initial political activism included protests at drag queen story hours and confrontations with figures like David Hogg.
  • Her entry into politics was direct—the result of absorbing a narrow, algorithm-driven information ecosystem.

  “Imagine the type of beliefs that somebody would have if their entire political worldview was shaped by, like, hey, as an adult, they just sort of logged on to Facebook and started reading the news and that's what they got.”
  — JVL [02:42]

• Sincerity as a Political Asset ([04:04]-[04:37]):

  • JVL argues MTG genuinely believes in her causes, unlike politicians such as Marco Rubio, whom he describes as purely transactional.

  “You can work with somebody like that because you can have a conversation with them because they genuinely believe what they say.”
  — JVL [04:04]

MTG’s Break with Trump and GOP Dynamics

• Consistency with Her Own “Epstein Logic” ([06:36]-[07:11]):

  • MTG’s break with Trump is seen as inevitable for someone who truly subscribes to QAnon and Epstein-conspiracy mythos.
  • Most Republican colleagues are painted as insincere for not following through on their supposed “core” issues.

  “It shows you that the percentage of the Republican House caucus that are just transactional, it's all bullshit, is like 98% of them.”
  — JVL [07:11]

• On Apologies & Personal Change ([07:24]-[07:42]):

  • Noting her appearance on Dana Bash, the hosts highlight MTG’s rare, direct apology for her past—"I was wrong"—as a sign of potential growth.

  “It wasn't like, I'm sorry, I hurt people's feelings. It was like, I'm sorry, like, I was wrong.”
  — Sam Stein [07:39]

Skepticism about Calculated Strategy

• Is MTG Calculating or Sincere? ([08:06]-[10:56]):

  • The hosts debate whether MTG’s behavior is strategic positioning for higher office, but both ultimately lean toward viewing her as impulsive and emotionally honest.

  “She just sees stuff and she feels it and she believes it and she acts on it...”
  — JVL [10:41]

  • On her presidential prospects:

  “I have a hard time believing that she is a credible presidential candidate in a Republican primary unless the only other people running are, like, Ron DeSantis and Ted Cruz.”
  — JVL [10:23]

The Value of Chaotic Authenticity

• Contrast with Typical Politicians ([10:58]-[11:40]):

  • MTG is described as "much closer to being a regular person" than most overly groomed politicians.
  • Her messiness and unpredictability are both a liability and a sign of honesty.

  “[S]he is much closer to being a regular person than like, 99% of the people in Congress. Like, she's like a super messy person, right? Like, she's. She's not polished.”
  — JVL [10:58]

• Potential for Coalition-Building ([12:33]-[14:31]):

  • The necessity—and difficulty—of working with unpredictable converts is discussed. The hosts acknowledge both discomfort and practical value in coalition politics.

  “...if you want to have coalition politics on these issues, you have to be able to work with these people. And you know who understood that was Donald Trump. Right? He's like, yeah, I'll give you Maha, I don't care.”
  — Sam Stein [14:33]

MTG as a Seeker, Not an Ideologue

• Repeated Pattern of Seeking Order ([14:46]-[16:28]):

  • MTG’s attachment to Kevin McCarthy is cited as another example of her tendency to latch onto leaders or causes she can believe in—and then being emotionally shaken when those beliefs are undercut.
  • The hosts caution listeners not to mistake this sincerity for full alignment: MTG’s embrace of guns and her “problem with trans people” place her squarely outside progressive company.

  “It's not like she's going to come join the bulwark. She's not going to become a Democrat.”
  — JVL [16:15]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On MTG’s Vulnerability to Social Media:

  “Her entree to politics is through Facebook...She just starts gorging herself on everything the algorithm sends her.”
  — JVL [02:14]

• On Politicians’ Transactional Nature:

  “Somebody like Marco Rubio doesn't believe anything he says and is only saying what he has to say in order to get the piece of cheese that he wants.”
  — JVL [04:19]

• On Her Public Apology:

  “She said, I participate in this toxic culture. Like, I, you know, so, like, trying to change it.”
  — JVL [07:42]

• On the Rarity of Sincerity in the House:

  “Once you're willing to just lie about stuff. For positioning...Then why would anybody think that you'd be looking to break [with Trump]?”
  — JVL [13:08]

• On Welcoming Converts:

  “You gotta, like, open your doors to people who, who you would never agree with. And, you know, you take converts, and maybe you don't take them like, without a little bit of distress, but you take them.”
  — Sam Stein [14:12]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• MTG’s Backstory & Rise — [01:10]-[03:59]
• Sincerity vs. Transactional Politics — [04:04]-[04:37], [06:36]-[07:11]
• Discussion of “Break” with Trump — [06:36]-[08:06]
• MTG’s Potential for Change — [07:24]-[07:42]
• Strategic Calculations or Genuine Chaos? — [08:06]-[10:56]
• Authenticity vs. Careerist Politics — [10:58]-[11:40]
• Coalition Politics and Pragmatism — [12:33]-[14:31]
• MTG’s Pattern of Seeking Belief — [14:46]-[16:28]

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Conclusion

The hosts conclude that Marjorie Taylor Greene’s chaotic authenticity—her sincere, if sometimes wild, beliefs—sets her apart from more cynical politicians. While her politics can be deeply problematic, her openness to changing her mind and emotional honesty make her a surprisingly useful figure for coalition-building and (potentially) political persuasion, even as she remains wholly unpredictable. The episode is an invitation to take such figures at face value rather than dismissing them as mere ideological extremists or opportunists.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Stein, managing editor at the book, and I'm here with jvl, fresh off of the weekend, looking fresh. Has a nice triad today where he goes for. Goes out for his girl mtg. And this is what actually impressed me at the triad. I had no idea you were such an Eat Pray Love fan, but now I know.

[C]

Not a not a fan fan. I hate. I've always been mildly obsessed with Eat Pray Love as a symbol of American decadence and, like, late stage capitalism.

[B]

I've never seen. Never seen it.

[C]

It's okay. You don't need to.

[B]

Am I missing something? No. Okay.

[C]

You don't need to. But it's a very American story, and it's a story about, you know, it's a very common story. Right. It's like Death of a Salesman, but with, like, unbelievably privileged men. Manhattanite. And, you know, like, you look up one day and you realize, well, shit, is this all there is? And, you know, and you go through a series of personal crises, and I think that's what happened to Marjorie Taylor Greene.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And it's one of the reasons I find her so relatable.

[B]

So let's talk about. Let's talk about the calm, because you make a compelling case that she's actually being sincere and that. Or at least we should take what she's doing as sincere.

[C]

I mean, she's always seemed sincere to me. So she is born rich. Her. Her dad runs a construction company, and she's Catholic, and she's in Georgia. She gets married real young. She gets married her junior year. Junior year of college. So, you know, like, she's still in college. She graduates the next year. She goes into. She has three kids. She becomes the CFO of the construction company that her family owns. And then like around 2011, you can see she looks up and she's like, really? This is it. You know, And I don't know, as anybody who's ever been in their 30s knows, this is a feeling which is not Wildly uncommon. And. And so she. She quits the construction company and she starts getting really into CrossFit so much in a CrossFit that, like, you know, the user who becomes the pusher, she opens her own CrossFit gym. And so she's a. She's a CrossFit person. And while she's becoming a CrossFit person, she also becomes a Facebook person and she just starts gorging herself on everything the algorithm sends her. And her entree to politics is through Facebook. Imagine the type of beliefs that somebody would have if their entire political worldview was shaped by, like, hey, as an adult, they just sort of logged on to Facebook and started reading the news and that's what they got. And so she becomes obsessed with all the foxy news type stuff that you would think, right? Sharia law is coming and we drag queen story hours. And she starts getting really involved and she starts blogging and she's in a lot of Facebook groups and she. She shows up to a drag queen story hour at her local library. And like, this is horrible. This is terrible. She. She runs around chasing David hogue through Washington, D.C. with a video camera because she thinks she's going to tell him off. And in the middle of all this, she also leaves the Catholic Church because she's like, look at this. They have priests abusing kids and the church just covers it up. I can't be part of this. And then she gets deeper into it and then she's like, I'm gonna run for Congress.

[B]

And she wins.

[C]

And she wins.

[B]

It's like, true American story here.

[C]

Yeah. And so my thesis here is that you can. You can work with somebody like that because you can have a conversation with them because they genuinely believe what they say. And because they believe it, you can actually maybe exchange views with them, maybe persuade them. Somebody like Marco Rubio doesn't believe anything he says and is only saying what he has to say in order to get the piece of cheese that he wants. Like, why even bother talking to him? Right? He doesn't. You're not going to convince him otherwise because he doesn't believe it himself. Right. He's just doing it to get what he wants.

[B]

Well, so I don't disagree with you. Actually, I think there's something there. I think, to me, it's interesting because the way you frame, it's like, here's someone who did not have a fully developed belief system. I don't mean that in a pejorative way at all. Or she came into this world early and her Information ecosystem was incredibly narrow. And so at the moment that Trump hits. Right, Right.

[C]

Two thousand and tens.

[B]

Right. And so as she gets more exposed and has more discovery, obviously, she allows herself to evolve. That makes total sense to me. It also strikes me as someone who is frantically, continuously looking for a movement or an institution or someone to trust. Right. Like she likes Donald Trump because he provides order or an explanation for her world. And when he disappoints, she is looking now for something else to trust. And that's a totally normal, human thing to do as well. She's a seeker.

[C]

Right. You talk about people in religious surveys. Yeah.

[B]

So what do you do with. If you're someone who is a Trump opponent, who, who, who wants to hold the President accountable? I mean, this is the big discussion now on the Democratic side is do you, do you open the gates to someone like a Marjorie Taylor Greene. Right. Or do you say thank you, but, you know, maybe the Jewish space, lasers and the threats and all that stuff is just too much for me to get around.

[C]

I mean, I don't know what open the gates means in that context. Right. I mean, I think you just take her at face value. Like, you show her the respect of taking her at face value, and you treat her with a level of seriousness that you would not treat J.D. vance or Marco Rubio or any of these other guys, you know, John Thune, who just go along to get along and, you know, like, that has let her. Look, the reality is, if you are deep in on, like, pedophilia and the Epstein stuff and you are sincerely in on it, then you have to wind up where she has. Wind up on Trump. Right? Right.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[C]

The guy is clearly, clearly at least complicit, if not worse than complicit, and he is obstructing the release of all this stuff. He's acting like a guy who's guilty.

[B]

And so in, in a way, it's almost shocking that she's one of three to do this, because they all.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah. They've all basically, at one point in their lives, said, this is the most serious issue of our day. It's, it's an in. It's a widespread elitist cabal covering up horrific pedophilia, and then to not at this moment come out and say, I demand that this stuff be exposed, which is shocking.

[C]

Two of them actually do believe it. Right. It shows you that the percentage of the Republican House caucus that are just transactional, it's all bullshit, is like 98% of them. And I, I don't know. Did you see, did you see Marjorie on Dana Bash this weekend?

[B]

I did. And I, I thought the part you highlighted was kind of interesting, which is when she was asked about her past stuff around, like, the David Hogg stuff and the threats and, and all that, and, and how she, she did apologize for it. She said, you know, I, I, I, I. It wasn't like, I'm sorry, I hurt people's feelings. It was like, I'm sorry, like, I was wrong.

[C]

She said, I participate in this toxic culture. Like, I, you know, so, like, trying to change it.

[B]

I guess the devil's advocate take from everyone who's expressing is, well, she, she's, you know, she's got higher ambitions. Trump didn't endorse her. Now he's revoked an endorsement. I don't even know if one actually existed. But she clearly wants to do something higher in office, and this is just a step in that direction.

[C]

I mean, if you want to say that this is a woman who is modulating what she says because it's part of a sophisticated strategy to climb. I mean, anything's possible, but it would be the first time.

[B]

It would also be a very poorly calculated step. She's just about completely isolated herself from a huge swath of the party. So it would not have been the smartest move.

[C]

And she, I mean, again, she came into Congress as the first QAnon believing member of Congress and immediately got herself, you know, kicked off of all committees because she wouldn't stop saying all the crazy stuff that she believes. And again, I just, I don't want to, I don't want to whitewash it. And I do want to make clear to people this is not like, JVL going soft on her because she agrees with him. Like, I've been on the MTG beat for, like, a couple years at this point. I've been going around saying, like, this is a person we can do business with. Right? This is somebody who you can actually have a conversation with. And, you know, it's just, again, it was inevitable if somebody really believed what they said on all the Epstein stuff And all the QAnon stuff, that they would have to break with Trump. And the fact that she did, I just take as further confirmation of all the other stuff we've seen, which is that she, she believes some crazy ass. Yeah, she believes some crazy, crazy ass. But you know what? Like, I don't know, like, okay, you can, you can talk to her about that. You could maybe change her mind on that. She's changed her mind on Lots of things. She's not one of these people who just digs in and refuses to. To respond to new facts.

[B]

No, that's true. The other. But the other explanation is like, I'm not sure I believe it, but maybe she did make the right calculation. Right? Like, okay, let's, in theory, say she has higher ambitions. She wants to use this as a stepping stone moment. And she's calculated that, in fact, breaking with Trump on these strategic matters, in addition to the stuff like the Obamacare subsidies, which is a more populous break with Trump, that that is the right move. And, yeah, maybe it doesn't make sense in the moment, but what if it does actually make sense in the long term? What if, as you pointed out, Trump's on the wrong side of the conspiracy theory and she's on the right side? And in fact, people. And people are going to say, hey, Donald Trump's actually a lame duck and he did kind of abandon a lot of this America first stuff.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, I, I have a hard time believing that she is a credible presidential candidate in a Republican primary unless the only other people running are, like, Ron DeSantis and Ted Cruz.

[B]

Sure, she might not be credible, but she might know where the. To borrow the cliche about hockey, she might know where the puck's heading.

[C]

She might. She might. But again, she's not somebody who has conducted any phase of her life since at least 2011 as though she was skating towards some puck. She just sees stuff and she feels it and she believes it and she.

[B]

Acts on it, tries to slap the puck.

[C]

And I. Yeah. And again, like, maybe that doesn't mean that that isn't what she's doing this time. Maybe she's really gaming it out, but I don't know. And even watch her on Tana Bash. Like, she's not super smooth and practiced. Like, she's. She's a little awkward. She's. Weirdly, she is much closer to being a regular person than like, 99% of the people in Congress. Like, she's like a super. Well, she's a super messy person, right? Like, she's. She's not polished. She's not buttoned up. She is not the. I mean, most of these guys have been running for office since they were, like, 10, right? I mean, your median congressperson is somebody who is. They're Tracy Flick. And she is not. Whatever else you want to say about her, she's not Tracy Flick.

[B]

No.

[C]

I don't know. I just find it refreshing because for me, the most depressing thing is watching all of these collaborators who know how bad Trumpism is and know how dangerous it all is, he'd just go with it, go along with it anyway.

[B]

Well, and Bill Kristol made the point today in Morning shots, which is like forever. The expectation was, well, it's the moderate Republicans who are going to find places to break with Trump. And on Epstein, of all things. These guys who are in these districts who, this is such an easy vote for them to take, and they didn't do it. But it was Nancy Mace who has her issues. Let's put that aside. Lauren Boeber, who had a ton of pressure put on her in literally the Situation Room by top Trump officials and mtg, and then Tom Massey. Those were the four that were like, actually, you know what you, well, we're going to take this vote and they're not moderates.

[C]

No. Well, this is, I mean, this is what I'm saying. So there was a, I wrote about this guy last week, Jeff Heard, who was out in Colorado. He actually went to primary, Lauren Boebert, because she was such an embarrassment. It was a pretty purple district and he was the choice of all the responsible chamber of Commerce Republicans. And she jumps districts so she didn't have to run against him. He, he became, and he was like, I'm going to be a check on President Trump. He didn't want any part of the discharge position petition, rather, you know, and it's because these guys are all useless. Once, once you're willing to just lie about stuff. For positioning.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Then why would anybody think that you'd be looking to break? Right. Unless you can get something for breaking, there's no reason that you would.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And so these guys will be the last ones holding on. I'm pretty convinced. Right.

[B]

Like, it's going to be amazing to watch the actual vote when it hits the House floor. All these people who didn't have the courage to sign the discharge petition are going to, to vote for this thing and it's going to look so lame.

[C]

So, I mean, it's really something. But I didn't ask you, where are you on, on Marjorie?

[B]

Are you, are you, are you See, as someone who made the space laser for the Jews, it's a little tough for me to now, you know, turn around and say, hey, she just admires your work. You know, I don't know.

[C]

I, I, the Banks, the Hollywood Studios. She's a big fan of the people.

[B]

Big fan of our people. I mean, I, I, I'm not quite where you're at. I don't Think I'm not like that far away. I, I, I welcome people who are converts. I, I, I, and I think I was talking with, it was either Chris Murphy or Kinzinger at the trip festival. And I think the topic came about like, do you welcome people like this? I think Kinzinger was like, don't, never. Marjorie Taylor Green. No, I might be butchering this, but I think that's it. But I think Murphy was like, look, if you want to be a, you know, a majority coalition, and you gotta, like, open your doors to people who, who you would never agree with. And, you know, you take converts, and maybe you don't take them like, without a little bit of distress, but you take them. You're not saying, trust her. You're not saying, trust.

[C]

She's not a Democrat. She's never going to be a Democrat.

[B]

She, no, but in coalition, if you want to have coalition politics on these issues, you have to be able to work with these people. And you know who understood that was Donald Trump. Right? He's like, yeah, I'll give you Maha, I don't care.

[C]

I would say one more thing. I think her. So remember, she was very close with Kevin McCarthy, and she was a big defender of Kevin McCarthy.

[B]

Yeah, I do remember.

[C]

This is, again, a case where Marjorie came in and was just, like, looking for something to believe in, and he was there and she was like, yeah, okay, I'm with it. And she was really pissed when he got deposed by the, you know, the little group of people who did the vote of no confidence or whatever it was on him. And she, you know, again, this is just, she's believing in stuff, and then the stuff goes and blows up in front of her face and she can't, she, she can't get over it.

[B]

And I think that's actually, you know, you're right that there's something, there's something admirable about that where it's like, you, you build a belief system, you actually do believe in it. And when it gets exposed as fraudulent or pulled out from under you, you don't just say, oh, well, I'll just keep getting along. You say, no, you know what?

[C]

That sure isn't what conservatism has done.

[B]

Yeah, right.

[C]

I mean, contrast her and the way she's reacted to the changing of events with the way, like, the tenets of intellectual conservatism have just morphed around over the last decade. I don't know. Again, she, her politics are not my politics. Right? I mean, she loves guns. Find somebody who loves you the way MTG loves guns. You know, she's just super into it. She. She really, really has a problem with trans people. Like, I mean, all. All the things. Very concerned about Israel.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Very concerned about Israel. Yeah.

[B]

Be a little bit more than just Israel, but yeah.

[C]

I'm just saying, like, all these things are real. Which is why, like, you know, it's not like. It's not like she's going to come join the bulwark. She's not going to become a Democrat.

[B]

Despite what Eli Lake says she is.

[C]

You can recognize her as being where she is, pay her the respect of believing that she's there genuinely and where you can work with her to get things done, you can do that.

[B]

Yeah, I agree. All right. Well, folks should read the column. It's great. You don't have to read it. Even if you hate Eat, Pray, Love, you can just read it because it's a great column. Jbl, thanks, buddy. Appreciate you.