Podcast Summary: Bulwark Takes

Episode: Why So Many Military Leaders Are Leaving Early (w/ Mark Hertling)
Date: October 17, 2025
Host: Bill Kristol
Guest: General Mark Hertling

Overview

This episode features Bill Kristol in conversation with retired General Mark Hertling, exploring an emerging crisis in U.S. military leadership: the unusually high number of senior military officers, including Admiral Alvin Halsey, leaving their posts early. The discussion explores the significance of these departures, the underlying tensions between the military and the current administration, concerns over legality and ethics in recent operations, and the historical context of civil-military disagreements. The conversation is candid, informed, and at moments urgent, as both men grapple with what these changes mean for U.S. civil-military relations and national security.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Significance of Admiral Halsey's Early Departure

Timestamps: [00:56]–[04:30]

• Halsey's Role: Admiral Halsey was the four-star combatant commander of Southern Command (SOUTHCOM), overseeing U.S. military operations across Latin and South America—a crucial and complex region.
• Nature of the Role: Hertling notes that four-star roles are linked to specific positions—once an officer leaves, there is nowhere else for them to go at that level.
• Chain of Command: Kristol stresses the chain of command: President ➔ Sec. Def. ➔ Combatant Commanders, not service chiefs ([03:42]).
• Suddenness and Impact: Both agree Halsey’s resignation less than a year into a three-year post is highly unusual and signals deeper issues.

Memorable Quote:

• “This is a big deal...this is not a guy who reports directly to the Chief of Naval Operations or the chairman...This is a direct relationship from the President through the Secretary of Defense to the combatant commanders.” — Mark Hertling [04:06]

2. Causes Behind Early Retirements

Timestamps: [04:54]–[10:12]

• Disagreements With Policy: Reports of discomfort among senior officers regarding the legality and wisdom of recent boat attacks in the Caribbean.
• Precedent: At least a dozen senior officers (3- and 4-star) have been asked to retire early—a sharp break from the norm.
• Civil-Military Doctrine: Military leaders are taught to follow civilian orders, only resigning for reasons of legality or inability to comply with orders.
• Historical Parallels: Hertling cites instances where generals resigned, were forced out, or regretted not resigning due to matters of principle (e.g., MacArthur, Denfield, Johnson).

Notable Moment:

• “You execute those orders and only think about either retiring or resigning early if you find yourself unable to execute those orders or [if] they're illegal orders.” — Mark Hertling [06:41]

3. The Legal and Ethical Gray Zones in Current Operations

Timestamps: [10:12]–[12:51]

• Operational Ambiguity: New York Times reports Halsey's unease over the legality or wisdom of attacks on suspected drug smuggling boats. The Coast Guard was bypassed, operations shifted to Navy/Special Ops with speculation about CIA involvement.
• Command Awareness: Friction occurs when field commanders are excluded from important decisions, especially if operations are run covertly by agencies like the CIA.

Memorable Quote:

• “If they're covert, they...shouldn't be talked about. And...if the administration gives up information saying, hey, there are CIA covert operations going on and we're going to publicize that, I mean even that itself could cause a commander to say, you know, I hate to put it in this stark terms, what am I, chopped liver here? This is my theater...” — Mark Hertling [12:08]

4. The Broader Problem: Strategic Drift and Deteriorating Civil-Military Trust

Timestamps: [13:42]–[19:26]

• Lack of Strategic Clarity: The administration’s National Defense Strategy is late, and its actions are perceived as erratic and overly focused on immediate presidential directives rather than established consensus and law.
• Congressional Oversight: Calls for Senate hearings to uncover what is driving senior resignations and how operations are being authorized and coordinated between military and intelligence agencies.
• Operational Precedents: Hertling draws on personal experience, recalling that the Coast Guard successfully disabled drug boats with minimal force, contrasting with current lethal actions.

Notable Quotes:

• “It seems to be emanating primarily from the daily wishes of the President, which can cause subordinate units, both Combatant Command and even those below them, to be a little bit anxious about what they're doing and how they're doing it.” — Mark Hertling [19:04]

5. The Human and Institutional Toll

Timestamps: [20:00]–[20:27]

• Personal and Professional Cost: Admiral Halsey’s early retirement likely means he exits at a three-star rank, sacrificing the recognition, stature, and certain benefits that come with finishing a four-star command.
• Character and Integrity: Hertling draws attention to Halsey's background at Morehouse College, suggesting his decision may reflect deeply held values about character and personal courage ([12:51]).

Notable Quotes & Moments

• “There's been over a dozen senior officers...in different key positions that have left since the beginning of the current administration.” — Mark Hertling [05:29]
• “We now have prisoners of war, criminal prisoners. I mean, what are these folks that have survived in international waters on a boat that was destroyed by someone from the American forces?” — Mark Hertling [16:04]
• “It’s a war that the President thinks he’s declared, but Congress has not declared or authorized or even gone along with.” — Bill Kristol [16:24]
• “Whereas the National Defense Strategy has not been written, the National Defense Strategy is driven by the National Security Strategy...It seems to be emanating primarily from the daily wishes of the President.” — Mark Hertling [19:04]
• “If they give him that retirement, he will more than likely retire as a three star admiral as opposed to a four star because he hasn't served in the position long enough.” — Mark Hertling [20:11]

Conclusion & Looking Forward

Timestamps: [20:27]–[20:45]

• Kristol and Hertling agree this is the beginning, not the end, of understanding the shakeup at the Pentagon and its consequences for U.S. security.
• They anticipate more information, likely through Congressional oversight, and plan to revisit the topic as facts emerge.

In sum: This episode offers a sharp, well-informed analysis of an unfolding crisis within U.S. military leadership. The early retirements signal not just personal decisions but institutional strain between military commanders and political direction, especially over ethical and legal boundaries. The episode ends with a note of concern—and a promise to keep monitoring what could become a defining issue for U.S. civil-military relations.