Podcast Summary: Bulwark Takes
Episode: Why Would You Get DATING Advice From Jeffrey Epstein?!
Date: November 18, 2025
Hosts: JVL & Sam Stein
Episode Overview
This Bulwark Takes episode unpacks the shocking revelation that former Treasury Secretary Larry Summers maintained a years-long correspondence with Jeffrey Epstein—including seeking romantic advice—long after Epstein’s criminal behavior was widely known. JVL and Sam Stein delve into what these communications reveal about Summers’ judgment, the vulnerability of powerful men, and the ripple effects for institutions still connected to Summers.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Summers’ Correspondence with Epstein
- Years of Emails: Larry Summers communicated with Jeffrey Epstein before and long after Epstein’s initial conviction for sex crimes, including up to 12 hours before Epstein’s final arrest in 2019.
- “Larry Summers is emailing back and forth with Jeffrey Epstein long before he is convicted of sex crimes, long after he is convicted of sex crimes and up to like 12 hours before he's arrested for the final time.” — Sam Stein [02:04]
- Subject Matter: The conversations weren’t just about economics. Summers explicitly sought Epstein’s advice about pursuing a romantic relationship with a woman he once mentored.
- “Larry Summers is coming to him for romantic advice. Asking somebody who's been convicted of sex crimes for advice about women. Wow.” — Sam Stein [02:33]
- Moral Failing: The hosts note that the most damning aspect isn’t just the inappropriate pursuit but Summers’ reliance on Epstein, fully aware of his criminal history.
- “Again, this is not pre discovery Jeffrey Epstein. This is. We know this dude's bad and I'm still gonna associate with the guy.” — JVL [02:42]
2. Summers’ Legacy and Institutional Fallout
- Troubled Reputation: Summers’ intellectual credentials are recognized, but personal and leadership flaws have long dogged his career.
- “He was a phenomenally successful Secretary of the treasury during the Clinton boom years... Not a great president of Harvard because he wasn't really good at doing leadership and dealing with other people. Because he's not a likable person.” — Sam Stein [04:29]
- Longstanding Issues: Democratic circles have increasingly sidelined him, with figures like Elizabeth Warren actively pushing him out.
- “There was a whole host of people in Democratic circles who were like, absolutely not. They had no willingness to even entertain the idea [of Summers for Fed chair].” — JVL [05:38]
- Institutional Questions: The revelation places pressure on Harvard, think tanks, and others to decide if continued association with Summers is tenable.
- “All these institutions are going to face really difficult questions about whether you continue to have this association with someone.” — JVL [06:33]
3. Details of the Summers-Epstein Exchanges
- Seeking Advice about a Protegee: The woman at the center of the communications is identified in the press as a Chinese economist, currently at the LSE. It’s unclear if any romantic relationship occurred.
- “What isn't clear to me... is whether they had a romantic relationship and then she drifted away or whether he was trying to start one. He's worried that she's only using him for his connections. And so it is like he's writing into Dan Savage, looking for relationship advice.” — Sam Stein [06:42]
- Codename ‘Peril’: Summers and Epstein refer to the woman as “Peril,” consistent with Epstein’s habit of using code names.
- “They used a codename for this woman. They referred to her as Peril…” — Sam Stein [08:49]
- Epstein’s Cringe Advice: Epstein offers pickup-artist style guidance, advising Summers to “play the long game” and keep her in a “forced holding pattern.”
- “Epstein urged him to play the, quote, long game and keep her in what he called a forced holding pattern.” — Sam Stein [11:23]
- Summers’ Insecure Behavior: The hosts portray Summers as emotionally immature and dangerously unaware of boundaries.
- “You are such a failure as a human being that you don't know how to have conversations with women or relationships. And you wind up in a place where you go for advice about romance to a sex criminal.” — Sam Stein [09:26]
4. Broader Reflections: Men in Power & Arrested Development
- Insecurity Among Elites: The episode underscores how deep-seated insecurity can persist even among the most powerful.
- “It's remarkable the degree to which the men who have reached the most power... still in their hearts are like kind of pubescent boys... deeply insecure around women.” — JVL [09:58]
- “Men will do anything to avoid going to therapy.” — Sam Stein [14:46]
- Disqualifying Lack of Judgment: While not strictly “cancelable,” these revelations are clear evidence of Summers’ catastrophically poor judgment, particularly on issues involving women.
- “What you have is a guy whose judgment is so bad you can't even believe it and who's an asshole. And so if you're the kind of shop that has a no assholes policy... aren't you within your rights just to say, you know what? Get lost.” — Sam Stein [12:01]
- “I just find it icky. I find it troubling. I don't think he should necessarily be working on anything related to, you know, women's issues or women in the economy or anything like that, because his judgment on this stuff is very suspect.” — JVL [14:29]
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
On Summers’ behavior:
“Imagine having to share, like, a faculty lunchroom with this guy.” — Sam Stein [13:40] -
On men’s reluctance to seek therapy:
“Men will do anything to avoid going to therapy.” — Sam Stein [14:46]
“Clearly. And even text with Jeffrey Epstein.” — JVL [14:50] -
On institutional responsibility:
“Every employer has the right to make assessments about the people they employ. And they don't have to fire them, but they don't have to continue working with them forever.” — JVL [14:21]
Key Timestamps
- 01:51 — Opening context on Summers’ ongoing communications with Epstein
- 02:33 — Summers seeks romantic advice from Epstein
- 04:29 — Discussion of Summers’ rocky legacy
- 06:42 — Details of the specific exchanges about “Peril”
- 08:49 — Use of codenames and Epstein’s pickup-artist advice
- 09:58 — Insecurity of powerful men
- 12:01 — Should Summers be "canceled"? Discussion of institutional policies
- 14:46 — Quips about therapy and male behavior
Conclusion
This episode uses the Summers-Epstein email trove as both a case study in personal and institutional failure and a broader meditation on the arrested emotional development of elite men. The hosts don’t mince words about the awfulness of Summers’ judgment or the uncomfortable aftermath for organizations still tied to him. Their tone is incredulous, sardonic, and focused on the bigger implications for power, privilege, and accountability.