Bulwark Takes: WILD Interview! Lutnick Shatters Trump's Epstein Party Line

Podcast: Bulwark Takes
Host: Andrew Egger
Guest: Will Sommer
Date: October 2, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode dives into the persistent controversies surrounding Jeffrey Epstein and recent explosive comments from Howard Lutnick, Trump's Commerce Secretary, in a New York Post podcast. Lutnick's candid remarks starkly contradict the Trump administration and DOJ narrative, reigniting questions about Epstein's connections to powerful figures, blackmail, and the suspicious leniency of his judicial treatment.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The White House and DOJ's Standing Line on Epstein

• Summary:
  The official position, recently reiterated by FBI Director Kash Patel before the Senate Judiciary Committee, is that no credible evidence exists connecting other powerful individuals to Epstein’s criminal activities. The White House maintains, “Nothing to see here.”

  • Quote:
    • Kash Patel: “There is no credible information. None. If there were, I would bring the case yesterday.” (01:02)

• Hosts' Take:

  • The hosts highlight ongoing skepticism, noting numerous accusations from victims against high-profile individuals, persistent mysteries about Epstein’s wealth and social access, and the lack of closure on the story.

2. Howard Lutnick’s Connection to Epstein

• Lutnick’s Story:
  Lutnick and Epstein were literally next-door neighbors in New York. Lutnick claims an uneasy familiarity: after a single visit where Epstein made off-putting comments about massages (and a massage table prominently displayed in the living room), Lutnick and his wife decided never to interact with him again.

  • Quote:
    • Lutnick (recounted by Egger): “He had this massage table just like in the living room...Epstein came very close...‘yeah, I get a massage every day and I get the right kind of massage.’” (03:10)
    • Lutnick (direct clip): “Now, my wife is standing here. So she looks at me and I look at her and we say, ‘I'm sorry, we have to go.’ And in the six or eight steps it takes to get from his house to my house, my wife and I decided that I will never be in the room with that disgusting person ever again.” (06:29)

3. Lutnick Contradicts the Trump White House

• Lutnick’s Accusations:
  Lutnick alleges that:

  • Epstein was an “incredible blackmailer.”

  • Epstein likely filmed illegal acts for leverage over powerful figures.

  • Epstein’s suspiciously light 2008 plea deal (18 months, allowed business visits) implies a “trade”—the government suppressed tapes in exchange for leniency.

    • Quote:
      • Lutnick (clip): “This guy was the greatest blackmailer ever. ... So, what happened to those videos? Why is there now such a dearth of information when, you know, Donald Trump's people are running the FBI and the DOJ...Must have been a trade just to—” (04:24)

• Hosts’ Analysis:
  The hosts underscore how radical these allegations are, especially given the consistent denials from DOJ and the Trump admin.

  • Will Sommer:
    • “In this case, the idea that Lutnick says, yeah, Jeffrey was blackmailing women or I would assume, and I think he had all these videos of people. I mean, this goes right against what the White House and the DOJ line has been this whole time.” (07:19)
    • “He says Epstein got this sweetheart plea deal...in exchange for the pedophile tapes. Now...that means the government is covering up...videos of other people who are, you know, having sex with underage girls. I mean, that is really, that's a crazy allegation...that's something that's, like, way beyond what a lot of people are saying.” (09:51)

4. The Administration’s Social Distance and Lutnick’s Foot-in-Mouth

• Shifting to Damage Control:
  Lutnick, when questioned by the Post about whether he had informed the President of these views, quickly backtracks, emphasizing his personal aversion to Epstein but avoiding direct critique of Trump.

  • Quote:
    • Egger recounts: “...he kind of goes into, like, immediate, like, wait a minute, I'm kind of talking out of turn mode. ...The president knows that I wasn't a big fan of the guy, but, you know, he has so much stuff going on...these are all sort of distractions.” (09:22)

• Analysis:
  The hosts point out that Lutnick is, despite his cabinet position, offering a personal, possibly uninformed perspective, but the very contradiction of the official story is newsworthy.

  • Will Sommer:
    • “I personally wouldn’t consider Howard Lutnick like a Sherlock Holmes level sleuth...yet he's like, ‘oh yeah, here's my creepy old massage table. Welcome to my house.’” (07:06)
    • “It is in one sense, you know, the White House, like, contradicting its own story horribly. In another sense, it's not like, I mean, I don't expect the, the Judiciary Committee to, like, drag Cash Patel back and wave this interview in his face...” (11:00)

• A Comparative Note:
  Lutnick claims to have immediately cut Epstein off (“never be in the room with that disgusting person ever again”), whereas Trump and others in the social circle maintained ongoing contact.

5. Memorable Moments & Notable Quotes

• “It's a classic Howard Lutnick foot in the mouth moment.” – Will Sommer (00:15)
• “This guy was the greatest blackmailer ever...That's how he had money. So, so what happened to those videos?” – Howard Lutnick (04:24)
• “Now, my wife is standing here...we say, ‘I'm sorry, we have to go’...never be in the room with that disgusting person ever again.” – Howard Lutnick, recounted (06:29)
• “That is really, that's a crazy allegation...you should be on Infowars, right? I mean, that level...” – Will Sommer (09:51)
• “It's a classic, you know, Lutnick blunder...he just loves sticking his foot in his mouth in ways that I think are disadvantageous for the administration.” – Will Sommer (12:30)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:00-01:02 – Intro and Kash Patel’s official line on Epstein.
• 02:15-03:39 – Lutnick's account of his neighborly encounter with Epstein.
• 04:14-05:12 – Lutnick’s on-air allegations about blackmail and the plea deal.
• 06:29 – Lutnick and his wife decide to cut off Epstein.
• 07:47-09:51 – Contradiction between Lutnick’s claims and government statements; reactions.
• 11:00-12:48 – Hosts reflect on Lutnick’s lack of inside knowledge and the overall improbability of the official story.

Tone and Context

The discussion balances incredulity, exasperation, and a dry humor about the endlessness of the Epstein story and the political implications of a high-ranking cabinet member straying so far from the Trump White House’s official messaging. Howard Lutnick’s brash oversharing is framed as both a liability and a rare candid glimpse into the elite social circles around Epstein.

Summary for Listeners

This episode deconstructs the latest wrinkle in the Epstein saga: Trump Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick's blunt (and potentially reckless) public allegations that Epstein operated as a blackmailer, with video leverage on society’s elite, and that his prosecution was hamstrung by high-level trades. The Bulwark’s hosts contextualize these statements, compare them to public record and official denials, and highlight the deep, unresolved contradictions at the heart of the Epstein case, especially when even a cabinet-level insider refuses to stick to the "party line."