Will the Senate Confirm Thugs Like Bill Pulte & Todd Blanche? (w/ Tom Joscelyn)

Summary

---

Bulwark Takes — June 7, 2026

Episode Title: Will the Senate Confirm Thugs Like Bill Pulte & Todd Blanche?
Host: Bill Kristol
Guest: Tom Joscelyn (Lead author of the January 6 Committee Report)
Main Theme:
Assessing the significance and dangers of Donald Trump's latest nominations of Bill Pulte (Director of National Intelligence) and Todd Blanche (Attorney General), and the broader authoritarian drift in the Trump administration, a year and a half into his second term.

---

Overview

In this urgent and highly analytical discussion, Bill Kristol and Tom Joscelyn examine the unprecedented appointments of Trump loyalists Bill Pulte and Todd Blanche to powerful executive roles, mapping these moves onto the administration’s broader authoritarian trajectory since January 6. The episode dissects patterns of loyalty, purges of institutional safeguards, and the growing threats to American constitutional order, civil service, and election integrity.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Triumph of Loyalty Over Qualification

• Bill Pulte to Director of National Intelligence (ODNI)

  • Kristol and Joscelyn highlight Pulte's total lack of relevant expertise as Director of National Intelligence, calling his selection "astonishing" (03:54).
  • The rationale for Pulte’s appointment is viewed as pure loyalty: “These aren’t guys...because of their expertise.” (03:22, Joscelyn)
  • Previous ODNI Tulsi Gabbard used the office as “a Ministry of Truth” for Trump propaganda, shaping precedent for Pulte’s likely role (04:39, Joscelyn).
  • Pulte is expected to continue promoting false claims of the 2020 election being "rigged,” serving Trump’s narrative needs rather than national security (06:17, Joscelyn).

• Todd Blanche to Attorney General

  • Blanche, a former Trump personal lawyer and recent Deputy AG, is described as another “loyalist” with a history of prosecuting Trump’s political foes and questionable actions involving the “Epstein files” (11:37, Joscelyn).
  • DOJ under Blanche is pressing to centralize voter data—an effort courts and some states are resisting—and laying groundwork for federal intervention in state-run elections, a direct challenge to constitutional norms (11:16–12:24, Joscelyn).

2. Weaponization of Federal Power Against Democratic Norms

• Trump’s strategy amounts to “loyalists everywhere”, with appointment decisions designed to remove any potential obstacles to his will (03:04, Joscelyn).
• The intelligence community is being drawn into domestic electoral issues under the pretext of countering “foreign interference,” justification for possible federal intrusion into elections (07:04–08:24, Kristol & Joscelyn).

3. Purging Institutions and the Crisis in Civil Service

• DOJ staff has been heavily purged, with up to “a quarter of the lawyers...left or been fired,” replaced almost exclusively by Trump loyalists (14:36, Kristol).

• The normal meritocratic system for civil service advancement has been “gutted,” replaced by open calls for loyalists regardless of expertise (14:36–15:27, Kristol).

• Quote:

  "The notion of picking nonpartisan lawyers who want to serve the country. Nope. You're a Trump loyalist, you can get a job. They're advertising for people all over the place..."
  — Bill Kristol (14:36)

4. Massive Expansion of Paramilitary and Deportation Apparatus

• Recent Senate appropriation vastly increases DHS and ICE funding—now "a massive paramilitary force at Trump’s disposal," potentially larger than the military forces of some Western nations (16:41, Joscelyn).

• Mass deportation is identified as the "linchpin of the regime," requiring an “inhumane” infrastructure of detentions and denials of due process, and serving as test of how far authoritarian measures might be taken (25:20–27:37, Joscelyn).

• DOD and DHS have also been brought into line, with figures like Pete Hegseth delivering nativist, white nationalist rhetoric on official occasions (17:48–19:12, Joscelyn).

• Quote:

  “You now have a massively funded apparatus...in service of this mass deportation scheme that Trump is overseeing...including people being illegally detained and denied habeas rights, denied due process. We saw famously protesters executed in the streets of Minneapolis.”
  — Tom Joscelyn (16:41)

5. Patterns of Legal, Congressional, and Democratic Resistance

• Despite rapid consolidation, courts and some states continue to resist federal overreach, especially concerning election and immigration policy (12:24, 21:23, Joscelyn).

• A Democratic win in either house could escalate Trump's fears and his authoritarian responses—“he would see that as a big threat...could trigger a more authoritarian response as well.” (21:28, Joscelyn)

• Quote:

  “The constitutional crisis is already here. The question is how it's going to end and be resolved.”
  — Tom Joscelyn (29:29)

6. Corruption as a Systemic Danger

• The level of corruption after just 18 months is portrayed as “so vast, so grand, so large, that it's almost incomprehensible...” (33:32, Joscelyn), with both high-level and widespread lower-level lawbreaking making orderly transition and accountability ever more fraught.
• Potential exposure for thousands of officials increases incentive for regime preservation at all costs (34:31, Kristol).

7. The Opposition’s Responsibility

• Kristol warns that traditional approaches to opposition—fighting on “policies” or “individuals”—are inadequate in the face of a regime bent on dismantling constitutional guardrails (35:32–36:36).
• Joscelyn calls for urgent, systematic resistance:

  “We should at least take the threat seriously and understand the threats are authoritarian threats. They are not normal political, partisan threats.” (36:36)

---

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• Bill Kristol:
  “It’s all about loyalty to me and me grabbing power.” (02:00)

• Tom Joscelyn:
  “These aren’t guys...because of their expertise. It’s purely about serving Trump’s interests.” (03:22)
  “She [Gabbard] turned ODNI into this Ministry of Truth, this propaganda organ for Trump.” (04:36)
  “This is beyond excuse. It's a pretext to do what they want to do.” (08:24)

• Bill Kristol:
  “The excuse of foreign interference is the ground for getting our intelligence community involved in election supervision and maybe election subversion.” (07:04)

• Tom Joscelyn:
  “That's the essence of an authoritarian regime is whether or not they're going to keep pushing forward with this mass deportation scheme...there’s a level of political violence and political will that you have to execute on the streets with boots on the ground that goes beyond just sort of like authoritarian dogma.” (25:20)

• Tom Joscelyn:
  “Listen, when the White House is putting out white nationalist tropes on the official White House social media accounts…that is extremism. That is authoritarianism.” (27:37)

• Tom Joscelyn:
  “Administration is trying to govern and rule according to the rule of law...a regime is something very different.” (34:58)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:00] – Trump’s post–Jan 6 loyalty test for all key positions.
• [04:29] – The weaponization of the Office of Director of National Intelligence.
• [07:04] – The intelligence pretext for federal election interventions.
• [11:16] – DOJ’s ongoing efforts to centralize voter data and threaten state authority.
• [14:36] – The purge of DOJ and civil service loyalty tests.
• [16:41] – Scope and implications of new DHS/ICE funding and mass deportation apparatus.
• [19:33] – Will officials go along with the plan? Resistance and risk of collusion.
• [21:28] – What if Democrats win Congress? Would it trigger more backlash?
• [25:20] – Why mass deportation is central to the authoritarian regime.
• [27:37] – White nationalist rhetoric directly from the White House.
• [29:29] – “The constitutional crisis is already here.”
• [33:32] – Corruption on a scale “almost incomprehensible.”
• [36:36] – Call for thinking outside the normal political framework.

---

Conclusion

This episode offers a sobering, detail-rich look at how loyalty-driven appointments and purges in the intelligence community, DOJ, DHS, and DOD fit a larger, coherent authoritarian project within the Trump White House. Kristol and Joscelyn stress the need for civil society and political institutions to shift into resistance-mode, warning that “the constitutional crisis is already here” and urging listeners not to normalize or underestimate the threat.

---

Transcript

[Tom Joslin]

Oregon parks make an Oregon summer. But what makes an Oregon park well, Oregon Lottery gameplay helps no matter the game. Megabucks, video lottery or keno, funds from lottery games help support parks projects across

[Rakuten/Mistplay Advertisers]

the state, ensuring they stay safe, accessible,

[Tom Joslin]

and open for all. In fact, Discover State park scratches are in stores now. It's the perfect way to put a little bit of Oregon's parks in your pocket. The Oregon Lottery Together we do good things. Must be 18 or older to play. Lottery games are based on chance and should be played for entertainment only.

[Rakuten/Mistplay Advertisers]

Don't you wish everything was more rewarding with Rakuten? Almost everything is. You can earn cash back on those new shoes you've been wanting. You can save on the next trip you book. You can cash in on groceries. Just join, shop your favorite brands and save Target, Instacart, Expedia, Macy's, Sephora, cvs. The list is long. Save online, in store and at over 22,000 restaurants. And when it's time to redeem those rewards, get your money exactly how you want it. Choose PayPal, check, Bilt points or cash out with gift cards. Eligible American Express card members can choose to earn membership rewards points instead of cash back. Terms and conditions apply. So go ahead, take a trip, fill a cart, order dessert. Rakuten is a world of rewards. Join today for free. Go to rakuten.com or get the app that's R A K U T E

[Bill Kristol]

N hi, Bill Kristol here. Pleased to be joined for this bulwark on Sunday by Tom Joslin. We've done this a few times. Lead author of the January 6 committee report a few years ago and been writing and speaking about the Trump administration's version of, well, not version of the Trump administration, which turns out to be the January 6th administration, as Tom and I both discussed, I think maybe over a year ago on this podcast and both of us have written about. I mean, one of the first things he did was, pardon me, all the January 6th or give clemency to a few, but all the January 6th insurgents and assailants, right? I mean, and now here we are a year and a half later and what I want to talk about is it's, it seems like the, let's call it the January 6th type agenda, the authoritarian agenda is chugging right ahead. I mean, Trump, for all of his occasional tax to, you know, not doing something too unpopular. This week he nominated Bill Pulte to be Director of National Intelligence. Nominated. Well, selected him because to make the acting Director of National Intelligence. So there's no confirmation issue nominated Todd Blanche to be Attorney general. Both things that even a couple of weeks ago, a lot of people who were watching the administration, I think, wouldn't have expected kind of bold moves towards just saying, you know what? It's all about loyalty to me and me grabbing power. But I don't know if people really come to grips with the implications of those two moves as well as others. That's what I want Tom to explain to us. So where are we here? A year and a half in? Yeah.

[Tom Joslin]

I don't know why anyone would be surprised by any nominations at this point. I mean, part of what we talked about when we talked about this being the January 6th administration, is that Trump was going to pick up where he left off. And the lesson of January 6 was that if he has people around whom we're gonna say no, who aren't total sycophants, who aren't total loyalists all the way bend the knee, no matter what, that his plans can get interrupted, that people could throw up roadblocks, whether it be Vice President Pence or Department of justice officials or state officials or anyone. Right. And so what he's been doing is looking for loyalists and installing loyalists everywhere he can. And, you know, with Pulte and Blanche, those are two loyalists. These aren't guys who are going to be put in these positions because of their expertise. It's not because of their savvy, it's not because they have some great agenda that's going to serve America. It's purely about serving Trump's interests. And that's why we have to ask, you know, a few months out from the midterms, and then ultimately a couple years out from 2028, what exactly are those interests?

[Bill Kristol]

That's well said. I mean, let's talk about Pulte, who's the most astonishing selection since he's, you know, utterly unqualified for the job and really unlike anyone who's ever served in that position. Let's talk a little bit. You know, the intelligence community. Well, you did a lot of work in the back of the day on counterterrorism against. Against ISIS and Al Qaeda. And no, you know, dealt a lot with the parts of the intelligence community. I'm not going to actually talk about that, but, I mean, what does it mean to be that he's director? Why. Why is Trump to have Bill Pulte, of all people, as Director of National Intelligence?

[Tom Joslin]

Well, you know, I've been critical of having an ODNI for years. You know, I don't even think we need One. You know, I think this was just sort of adding a layer of bureaucracy. But, you know, I think it's important to put into context a little bit before Pulte. You know, Tulsi Gabber was. Was the Director of National Intelligence, right? And, you know, what she's been doing is she turned ODNI into this Ministry of Truth, this propaganda organ for Trump. And I was just reviewing some of the stuff that she put out, you know, as odni. You know, for example, she put out these memos where she was accusing the Obama administration of basically subverting Trump's election victory in 2016. She put all these memos, and I put them out. And obviously, readers can't see what I'm holding here, but take my word for it. What it's based on is this idea that the intelligence community found before the election and then after the election that, you know, Russia had not hacked our machines and flip votes, right? And she says, well, that's what they were saying before and after the election, and then they come out with this intelligence assessment saying Russia did interfere. So therefore, they flipped this whole story on him to try and, you know, frame Trump and to basically undermine Trump's victory. It's all nonsense. I mean, it's a really stupid claim, because the intelligence assessments that were done under the Obama administration, as Obama was heading out in late 2016 into early 2017 held constant that, you know, Russia did not hack machines and flip votes. Russia interfered in other ways, which is what those assessments said. But be that as it may, Tulsi Gabbard went forward with this ridiculous propaganda claim that basically the Obama administration had committed treason on the way out. Now, it's not a really full fleshed theory. It's kind of nonsense, but that's what. It's definitely nonsense, but that's what she did. Now flash forward a little bit further. Remember, you know, some months ago, she took part and supported the election raid in Fulton County. This was the raid on getting the full county ballots and all the other election materials. You know, she said before the Senate, I think it was, that Trump asked her to attend that route, that raid, which is crazy. You know, they're taking up all these ballots, everything else, and you have to ask yourself, so now you're under. You're trying to undermine, you know, what the Obama administration and what the Democrats were doing around the 2016 election, trying to say that they were doing something, you know, treasonous. Then you're trying to undermine the credibility of the 2020 election. Now comes in, which Trump lost. Now you have Pulte coming in. And what Trump says about Pulte is, well, and he said this directly. We may find out more about the 2020 election, how it was rigged. This is what Trump said about Pulte being put in this, in this place. So that's one of the things I think Trump expects from that Pulte as, as the sycophant as this lo is going to carry water for him and basically continue lying about the 2020 election. And the question then becomes to what gain? Right. Is this more than just the sort of the stupid propaganda that he's putting out, or is this really part of some attempt to undermine the midterms and ultimately 2028?

[Bill Kristol]

Well, just. And the reason it could be and is in my opinion, is the excuse for that Gabbard gave and the excuse Trump loyalists will give for why is the Director of National Intelligence involved in this at all? This is not a foreign policy issue. It's not a Director of National Intelligence supervisor, the CIA, the nsa, all these organizations that are not supposed to meddle in domestic politics. Whenever you think of the FBI going out to Fulton County, Georgia, in theory, if there were law enforcement issues, the FBI could show up somewhere and say, we need to examine something. I mean, it was nonsense, but. And the reason, the excuse, though, is foreign interference, right? This is one reason. I mean, they both want to deny there was any Russian interference, but they need to claim, I think going forward the possibility or the threat or the attempt of foreign interference. Maybe it's Iran, maybe it's China. They could, but she controlled. And then Pulte now will control these assessments which do then justify because it is true. I mean, in theory, the national government would have to deal with foreign interference. You can't really ask. The state of Georgia doesn't have the capacity to judge intercepts about whether they are interfering in the election or doing some of this. So that's the excuse and that's why Pulte matters. Right. The excuse of foreign interference is the ground for getting our, our intelligence community involved in election supervision and maybe election subversion.

[Tom Joslin]

Yeah, I mean, this is beyond excuse. It's a pretext to do what they want to do. Right. The idea going Back to Pre January 6and the months between the election in 2020 and January 6, 2021, one of the conspiracy theories that they favored was this idea that China or others had somehow interfered on Joe Biden's behalf in a way that tilted the game against Trump. They. And it never added up. None of the Assessments by ODNI or anyone else who briefed Trump or others at that time backed up that claim. In fact, you know, Trump fired Chris Krebs, the head of cisa, you know, because why? Because he wouldn't back up his claims that there were any kind of anything, anything happened with the machines, with foreign intelligence or anything else.

[Bill Kristol]

CISA is the agency that, that actually monitors and supervises this.

[Tom Joslin]

Yes, it's the cyber something or other, you know, anyway, you know, but it's one of those four, four letter acronym agencies. But, you know, so now going forward, what we've seen from Trump is a couple executive orders and bunch of statements where he wants the federal government, his executive branch, to take control of or have power over elections. Federal elections. Now, we know under the elections clause of the Constitution, that's a big no. No, the states have power over the elections and Congress can weigh in, but the executive branch and the presidency has no say over federal elections.

[Bill Kristol]

Done.

[Tom Joslin]

Zero. And so what this is, is looking for a pretext by saying, well, you know, there was this foreign interference from China or whoever, therefore we have to get, as you were saying, Bill, we have to get involved and make sure that there's no such interference going forward and really secure our elections. It's a completely Orwellian way of looking at it. Right. It's flipping the truth on its head. We're going to invent this lie in order to justify what we want to do, which is a complete abrogation of the constitutional authority.

[Bill Kristol]

I mean, one hopes that people in the national intelligence community won't go along with this. And we don't know, I guess, really what's going on in there. There have been some firings, dod, the many firings. We get to that in a minute maybe about sort of the whole question of how much, how much they can succeed in their efforts to do whatever they want to do in 2026 and 2028. But before we get to that, let's talk about, about Todd Blanche, the other big nomination use of the week. Trump's former personal lawyer and then has been serving as Deputy AG for a year and a half now, is nominated to be the full time, the, the, the actual Attorney General. Not, not the act, not the. He's now acting Attorney General with the departure of Bondi, the actual, so to speak, Attorney General. Again, people are focused on the dictative prosecutions that he's been doing to please Trump. And I think that's worth. We've talked with them elsewhere, but I talk a little bit, but I'm struck also DOJ is also involved in trying to get its hands on voter rolls and do other things that lay the groundwork for saying, oh, well, the vote here looks suspicious. We have to go in and recount the ballots. I'm making this up, but, I mean, you know, not making it up. I'm saying there are many, many, many ways this could happen. It's hard to game out all the scenarios. But say a word about what a Todd Blanche as Attorney General might do in this case.

[Tom Joslin]

Yeah, I mean, he's another loyalist. I mean, even under Pam Bondi, the DOJ was doing what Trump wanted the department to do with respect to elections. And I think what you're, what you're driving toward, Bill, is we have to take seriously that they have something nefarious afoot, that Trump really is going to use all the powers, the levers he has across the executive branch to do something crazy when it comes to elections, because he's entertained crazy stuff all along, including up to January, including January 6th. And he's not back down by the Constitution or anything else. And what DOJ has been doing under Bondi, and now Blanche is basically harassing states for their voter rolls to get all this data they want to put into, like, a centralized federal database for voters and then tell states who are citizens, who aren't, who basically who can vote and who can't. That's essentially what they want to do. And they've run into a lot of roadblocks in the courts, and some states have told them to pound sand, they're not going to do it, but that's what they're driving toward. That's what they want to do with this, is they want to accumulate all this data for. To what end? Right? To basically say who can vote and who can't, and to sort of cook the books. Now, again, as you said, they may or may not succeed in that regard, but it's another branch of the federal government, another executive branch that's pushing toward Trump's will. And Todd Blanche is a guy who's going to do that. He's not going to say no. Todd Blanche is already going after Trump's political, perceived political foes. Todd Blanche helped cover up the Epstein files, of course, and has had unbelievable statements he's made on the record about the Epstein files. Crazy stuff that just doesn't add up. And so this is not. And he was, of course, Trump's personal attorney. He's not going to say no to Trump. If Trump wants to keep pushing in any way these agendas that really threatens the state voting, playing mobile games and

[Jake Stauch]

not getting rewarded for it is a thing of the past. Why haven't you switched yet? If you're going to spend the time playing, you should be earning rewards, doing it. With Mistplay, you play what you love and earn points for gift cards and more. Plus you can enter the Mistplay sweepstakes for your chance to win tens of thousands of dollars in cash and bundles and gift cards every week. So yeah, keep playing games, just maybe get rewarded for it. Download Mistplay today and enter for your chance to win. I'm Jake Stauch, co founder and CEO of Cervel. We built Serval to automate the IT work that slows companies down. Onboarding, password resets, access to applications. My laptop stopped working. While employees wait for help, their real work is put on hold. It desperately wants to automate this work and that's why they need Serval. You just tell Servil what you want to automate in plain English and it's built. No drag and drop workflows, no expensive consultants. Employees get unblocked and IT teams go from drowning in tickets to building what actually matters. With Cerbal, it becomes the AI engine powering the entire company. This is a new way to run it. We guarantee you'll automate 50% of all tickets and we'll prove it to you in a free four week pilot. Go to cervel.com tickets that's S E-R-V-A L.com tickets.

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah, it is, it is. And he's probably more confident than Pam Bondi in doing this, right?

[Tom Joslin]

I would suspect so. I mean, you know, Pam Bondi, none of these people strike me as extremely competent, but. But Todd Blanche is probably more competent than Pam Bondi. Yeah.

[Bill Kristol]

And in fact, the justice. I mean, I think I read I may have this number wrong, but a quarter of the lawyers have left or been fired. Many have quit. They don't feel they can serve their good conscience. They certainly don't want to serve there. And the kinds of things they're being asked to do, they have been replaced mostly by. And almost. Well, they've been mostly replaced if there are a few vacants, some vacancies, but. But when they've been replaced, it seems to be almost entirely by Trump loyalists. I mean the whole civil service system, it's a whole other discussion that I want to have with some other, with people who are really experts on this has been being gutted and it just as well. And the notion of picking nonpartisan lawyers who want to serve the country. Nope. You're Trump loyalist. You can get a job. They're advertising from people all over the place to get jobs. They have so many vacancies. And you know, what does it look like when you have a Justice Department that in the first Trump term, what everyone thinks of Bill Barr was a, it was run by Barr. There were deputies who quit because he couldn't, didn't want to do some stuff in that last month, didn't quit very nobly, didn't say anything much, but at least left deputies there who were willing to say no to Trump. As we know from the famous whatever January 2nd or 3rd, whatever those meetings were, that you guys brought out at the committee and was staffed down in the ranks by people who were not interested in election subversion. It's going to be very different with the Justice Department. That's a quarter or maybe a half by two years from now, staffed by people hired in the Trump administration. This week we also saw Hexaf at Defense Department interfering in promotion boards. And we also saw, and I want you to come in about these, the Senate Republicans jammed through this multi year appropriation, supplementary, I'm going to call it appropriation to the big one they did last year for ICE and Border Patrol. I mean, this was something they had to have. They said, you know, because the register appropriation got stopped, this ICE and D8 and Portugal have been doing their thing for the last few months without this extra appropriation. So this is just another 70 billion, I think on top of ICE will have 50, 000 employees maybe two years from now. They're going to be at Trump's disposal. So say a word about DOD and DHS and how they fit into this overall pattern.

[Tom Joslin]

Well, I mean, we're only a year and a half in, right. And he's already wreaked havoc on the federal government and the executive branch. And they've got loyal, he's got loyalists in place everywhere. And they're, they've been carving out and getting rid of anyone who would stand in the way. And all this is a consolidation of authoritarian control of these agencies to do Trump's bidding, not do the Constitution's bidding. You know, when it comes to dhs, you know, the massive funding, you now have a massively funded apparatus to do, you know, in service of this mass deportation scheme that Trump is overseeing. This is, this is really the, the linchpin of the regime, linchpin of what Trump wants. And of course there are ways that that's already affected Thousands and thousands of lives across the country, including people being illegally detained and denied habeas rights, denied due process. We saw famously protesters executed in the streets of Minneapolis. We've die and shot. And so now you're going to take these agencies that have been already wreaking havoc across the country, you're going to give them more resources going forward, even, you know, an incredible amount of resources. And in fact, I think some of the estimates say this is more money than basically some standing militaries across the west and from other countries. I don't have those numbers right in front of me, but some of the, some of the estimates I've seen, I mean, this is a really a huge now paramilitary force that Trump has across the country to do his bidding and to do Stephen Miller's bidding and do to follow this really extreme agenda. And when it comes to DOD and Pete Hegseth, you know, we got to say a word about this. I mean, somebody else probably already has. But, you know, the speech he gave on the anniversary of D Day in France was completely outrageous and disgusting. It was again, all about demonizing migrants and immigrants. And you know, Hexeth used language that was not really, I think, the type of language that the Secretary of Defense should be using, especially on such a psalm and day like D Day, the anniversary of D Day, where he talking about migrants invading Europe and basically, you know, overturning Europe and he hopes it's not too late. And this kind of stuff, it was all very reminiscent of the white nationalist great replacement theory, this idea that migrants are going to replace white people in Europe, Europe and elsewhere. That's basically the speech he gave, or a chunk of it. And he's the guy again who will do what Trump wants him to do. Remember, you know, not too long ago, was just several weeks ago, he was asked about the National Guard being deployed around elections and he lied. He said that Biden, you know, it happened during Biden administration and therefore there's nothing to worry about when it wasn't true, really. I mean, states had deployed the National Guard for various reasons around elections, not and not at polling centers. And it had nothing to do with serving the will of the President of the United States. And so you put it all together, massive paramilitary force and dhs. You know, you have sycophants, the DHS and Department of Defense. You have Christian nationalist Pete Hegseth who's basically willing to do what Trump wants him to do. I mean, if you just add it all up with what we just talked about when it came to doj, when it comes to other departments, there's a lot of potential for something really bad to happen here.

[Bill Kristol]

I was having a conversation about this with someone yesterday who's, you know, intelligent guy, well informed, said, well, but come on, Bill. I mean, it's just not much evidence that these organizations, they're big organizations, they have a lot of people who were in them from before Trump, a lot of fine people. Are they going to go along with all this? I mean, won't this be like January 6, 2021, on a bigger scale? And a funny, in a way, if you want to call it this way. I mean, instead of 25 people involved in an attempt to overturn the election, or 50, it'll be 250 or 2,500. But still, it's, you know, hard to imagine the military really being engaged in this. Hard to imagine Justice Department down in the ranks just willing to go to court and make these insane arguments. I mean, how. There's some truth to that, isn't there? But on the other hand, how, how reassured, how worried should we be, do you think?

[Tom Joslin]

Yeah, I mean, you know, I always look at this stuff in terms of possibilities, not in terms of, like, I don't have a crystal ball. I don't know that any of this is going to be acted upon. They're going to do any of this. I mean, it could all fall through. I mean, they could all go poof and decide we're not going to follow through any stuff. The problem is January 6th. The problem is we've already seen a crazy conspiracy theory, you know, you know, wreak havoc on the capital of the United States, you know, and disrupt the peaceful transfer of power for the first time in our nation's history. So we've already seen that ground. Right? And, and when you, when Trump crossed that Rubicon, when he crossed that red line, and some of the people around him did help him cross that red line, others stood in the way, of course, many others stood in the way. He learned from that. He has many more people now today who are not willing to stand up to him and not willing to hold the line for him. Right. So that doesn't mean he's going to succeed. There's a lot of reasons why any of this stuff could fail. It could fail in the courts. It has been failing in the courts. There's a lot of great litigation going on. It's held them up. It could fall because people don't want to go through with the craziest stuff. But the problem is, you Know, we're only a year and a half in. He's already got a lot more human assets, let's say, across the government, to do his betting. They did before.

[Bill Kristol]

How much difference does it make if Democrats win one or both houses of Congress, do you think?

[Tom Joslin]

I think it matters, but I think it also will heighten Trump's fears. I mean, I think he has a real fear of being impeached for any number. I mean, I don't even know what the first bill of impeachment would be. I mean, there's so many things to impeach him on at this point, you know, and so that threat to his power is something that could trigger a more authoritarian response as well. So I think he would see that as a big threat. He certainly has said it's the midterms are a big threat to him and his rule. You know, he sees it that way. So that again, we're not talking about certainties here. We're not talking about something he's definitely going to do. I mean, we don't really know, but knowing how he operates and how he thinks, certainly these things are a threat to him.

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah, I just think the last month or two particularly is ways, and as you say, it's a matter of probabilities and uncertainties by any means, but ways in favor of the argument that the more his popularity goes down, the more, more likely it is that he doesn't have a natural true majority or even close to a majority support in the country. The more likely it is he starts to lose elections in November and will be weak, go looking weak going to 2028. It could, it could have been that. It's not crazy to say, you know, he'll adjust, he'll be more moderate. And there were little hints in that direction. Right. You know, gets rid of Bovino at Border Patrol and stuff like that. You know, he wants to look more reasonable. But I'd say the overwhelming, predominant evidence, maybe overwhelming evidence, is the other way that he, he's doubling down on the authoritarianism because he's not confident that the demagoguery doesn't work. You've got to go to the next stage, Right. If you don't, can't. If you can't, if your lies aren't succeeding in persuading the public or even some of your own supporters in the public, you go to the next stage, which is you firm up your base, which could be a third of the public, to be there to support the actual levers of power, your exercise of the actual levers of power you control. But is that where do you, you think that's right?

[Tom Joslin]

I mean, yeah, I mean, yeah, it's a balancing act like you said, right. I mean it's I think a good amount of what he's doing. When we've seen with other sort of authoritarian minded leaders in the past, it's about hardening the base. It's about getting the base as hard as possible to make sure it can't crack. Just stands behind you. And let's say it's a third of the country in a two party system. That's a lot, right? That's an awful lot. And that gives him quite, still gives him quite a bit of, of ground to, to operate on and you know, things like, you know, replacing Bevino. First of all, we just saw Bavino attend this far right, you know, conference in Europe with you know, racists and you know, was praising one of Hitler's lead generals and all sorts of stuff. And obviously he has sort of like this whole shtick of how he dresses and everything else with people which other people have likened to that, that era of German history. But you know, be that as it may, I mean replacing Bavino was about efficacy and finding somebody more competent really more than anything else in my view. And Tom Holman, who is really in charge of a lot of this now, now remember this is a guy who's also repeated the white nationalist great replacement theory and has been pushing an extreme agenda. He just may be a little more effective at pushing it forward when it comes to mass deportation, we're going to find out. But that mass deportation scheme, Bill, that ultimately is where this is going to come down to in my view is how far they're going to willing to push that now and how what they're willing to go forward. There has been a lot of, there have been a lot of roadblocks across the courts. You know, a lot of judges have stood up to say you can't violate that the behaviors rights of thousands and thousands of people. But as they, that's the essence of an authoritarian regime is whether or not they're going to keep pushing forward with this mass deportation scheme and everything. I think, I think they will.

[Bill Kristol]

You've been stressing since the beginning and I think you really were right about this, that the centrality of the mass deportation scheme to the authoritarian agenda. I mean explain that a little more because it's not, you could theoretically be an authoritarian who's not interested in re migration and mass deportation. You could theoretically believe in mass deportation, but try to do it by democratic means, I suppose. But what is the but there seems like there's some more intrinsic connection there.

[Tom Joslin]

You know, I think it's because of what if in terms of mass deportation on the scale that Trump has said he wants to do and the people around him have said they want to do, including Stephen Miller, Tom Homan and others. It requires a lot of infrastructure. First of all, across the country. It requires this massive paramilitary force we're talking about dhs, it provide. It requires a lot of boots on the ground, it requires loyalists, it requires a willingness to bend, if not break the laws, you know, across the board. And that's what we've been seeing. If you put all together, all those up, it requires, you know, a completely inhumane desire to lock people up and detain them without habeas rights, without due process. You know, now the courts have held the line a number of times, many times against this and, and have been a viable way for people to seek refuge. However, they still, you know, violate the rights of tens of thousands of thousands of people really, I would say so far in just 18 months. And so if they're going to move forward with it, they're going to keep doing it. There's a, there's a level of political violence and political will that you have to execute on the streets with boots on the ground that goes beyond just sort of like authoritarian dogma. And that's the real test, that's one of the big tests for me is going forward is how much further they're willing to go on this stuff.

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah, that's, it's so interesting. Interesting isn't the right word, I guess was so ominous. But I also do think the mindset that leads you to mass deportation and white supremacism and all the re migration theory and all that is, is a mindset that's authoritarian. I mean it didn't in theory one can invent and this has happened in history, I'm sure, you know, as I say, Democratic demagogues being so good at persuading majorities, they don't have to be too authoritarian. I mean they're still authoritarian in the way they, what they're doing. But they don't have to be undemocratic, let me put it that way, in what they're doing because they get the whole populace to be in favor of this stuff. But, and the converse, I guess could also be true. You could have an authoritarian regime that's kind of fine with a multicultural country and it's just authoritarian, but it does Seem like those things go together an awful lot of the time. I don't know. And I feel like there's a deep psychological almost kinship of the hatred of the rule of law on the one hand and the master and democracy on the one hand, and then the deportation agenda on the other. That deportation agenda is really central, isn't it? That white supremacist.

[Tom Joslin]

Listen, what the White House is putting out white nationalist tropes on the official white national white. The White House social media accounts like remigration, which is a word used by white nationalists encouraging immigrants of color to leave and leave behind a more a whiter nation. You know, and this is, this is all very extreme rhetoric. I mean, the White House right now, as we're speaking, uses very extreme rhetoric to talk about the President's mass deportation scheme, his immigration policies, everything else. I mean, if you're willing to send federal agents into homes to take out, you know, immigrants who are here under, you know, lawfully in a lot of cases even by the way, and break up families and just in the name of getting a pure whiter nation right, that is extreme authoritarianism. That is, that is extremism. That is authoritarianism. And that's what we've already seen they're willing to do. Now the question is, how much further are they willing to go?

[Bill Kristol]

I mean, do you think we're heading. Well, and with the courts, we've seen the administration be sort of wary of really taking them on frontally. An awful lot of evading and lying and finding worse ways to not respect really the courts, what the courts, you know, to try to limit the effect of these different courts opinions. We'll see what the Supreme Court does over the next few weeks and then going forward. But I feel like with both the courts and the Congress, one could say, well, Congress can stop them. But of course, the administrations are pretty good at igoring an awful lot of congressional requests, demands for oversight and ignoring actual laws. You know, so like what happened, what happened to war powers and all that stuff? So, I mean, they defeated some efforts to impose that in Congress, but more broadly, they're just not supposed to go to war without getting congressional authorization. So I don't know, I just feel like again, people, what do you think about those two, the courts in Congress? I mean, the degree they, they've. They could try to stand up. Presumably a Democratic Congress would try to stand up a lot more. But I guess I. Are we, are we heading towards a possible constitutional crisis in either of those areas?

[Tom Joslin]

I think the constitutional crisis is already Here the question is how it's going to end and be resolved. I mean, you know, Iran was unconstitutional, obviously. You know, this was not something that was authorized by Congress, you know, like other actions in the past, you know, and he's essentially gotten away with that. And it's now there's really questions about, you know, what he's, you know, the legal authorities he's evoked elsewhere, whether it's constitutional or not. They've certainly pushed the envelope in all sorts of different ways. I think a lot of their military actions are unlawful. You know, they're killing civilians at sea under the name of fighting, you know, these, after designating cartels as terrorist organizations a lot of times don't even know who the people are they're killing. And it's not even clear there are drugs on the boat sometimes and who knows, who knows what's going on there, you know, I mean, they're basically killing people at will in these operations. So we were, we've got a crisis in terms of foreign policy and then we've got a crisis domestically where you have, you know, a Congress right now which is not willing to really do its role in our, you know, we have, we have three branches of the federal government, you know, and if the Congress is not really willing to legislate and act independently of the president and this Rep. The Republican Congress certainly isn't going to do that, then that creates a separation of powers issue and is part of an ongoing longer term problem which is only exacerbated under Trump and then under the judiciary. I would say, you know, a lot of district courts and even a lot of pell courts have stood up for the rule of law and the Constitution. I think the Supreme Court's decisions, some of those are really wrongheaded and are rooted in a, in a theory of executive power that I certainly don't adhere to. So I think you put it all together and I think the constitutional crisis is here. The question is how will it resolve, be resolved?

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah. And we could really have something we haven't seen in, I guess what, a century and a half, you know, in 2028. Right. 2026, I think will be, there'll be a lot of stuff happening and God knows they'll try to do various things. But I feel like that that may fall short of the actual real constitutional crisis. That has got to be, I mean, for Trump, ultimately, I guess a lot of it comes down to is how much does he feel he has to or wants to stay in power. I mean, certainly wants to stay in power. But how much? What's the risk to him, his family, his wealth, just everything. His liberty by losing. And also and this is a point you and I have discussed a bit, but I don't think other people have quite focused on how many people are there who have, who have committed, who have stolen money or commit or made arrangements that are illegal in this administration who don't want that rock turned over two years from now. Right. And there are hundreds, maybe thousands you know in all these major departments down at the second, third, fourth tier, probably down to the 15th tier. Some minor, you know everyone's doing minor forms of theft. Not just, not just the billion dollar thieveries we hear about.

[Jake Stauch]

Ever walk past a place for rent and wish you could just take a peek inside? Maybe even explore the layout? Envision the natural light streaming through the windows or plan where your vinyl record collection would go. At apartments.com you can. With tools like their 3D virtual tours you can see the exact unit you could be living in. Really envision yourself in your new home with apartments.com the place to find a place.

[Bill Kristol]

You didn't start a business just to

[Tom Joslin]

keep the lights on. You're here to sell more today than yesterday. You're here to win.

[Bill Kristol]

Lucky for you Shopify built the best converting checkout on the planet like the just one tapping ridiculously fast acting sky high sales stacking champion of checkouts.

[Tom Joslin]

That's the good stuff right there. So if your business is in it

[Bill Kristol]

to win it, win with Shopify. Start your free trial [e-mail] win how many of them would go along with you know what, Not a good idea to be leaving office here, letting the, the other party or even conceivably your own party but a non loyalist person for your own party take over that. That was not something that was the case in 2020. And I, I just think you put all that together, I mean there's going to be a lot of support for Trump in among his loyalists for not gracefully leaving office.

[Tom Joslin]

Yeah, I mean time will tell. Obviously we don't have a crystal ball but the thing that's, that's now a much bigger crisis than it was in 2020 is the level of corruption which we don't have enough time to dive into here. We could do probably a thousand bull work podcasts and not cover all the aspects of corruption that have gone on in a year and a half. It's something I've been studying and it's, I think part of the problem is the corruption is so Vast now is so grand, is so large, that it's almost incomprehensible to the mind to even believe that something could be this corruption. But Trump and his family are thoroughly corrupt in what they've executed here and what they've done. And there are, as you said, there are all sorts of other people around him in the White House and elsewhere who are also on the take and are engaged in corrupt dealings. How does that all resolve itself? I mean, there has to be. If we're going to move forward as a democracy, there has to be some sort of accountability effort after this is all said and done. And that's a threat to them and their power going forward and even their liberty and certainly their finances and the

[Bill Kristol]

corruption, but also the lawlessness. There are people who signed off on things who aren't going to want some independent look at these things, Right. If someone come in and let's make these documents, let's make all these legal justifications for these drug strikes, let's make public who. Who signed off on them and what the rationale was. Was there an actual discussion and did they present evidence? You know, was it the normal JAG process? I mean, I just think this, if you go through the departments you can think of, an awful lot of people aren't going to want to have, as I say, the rocks turned over.

[Tom Joslin]

Yeah. I mean, that's why we always, you know, I always use the word, or I try to anyway. I try and use the word regime as opposed to administration because, you know, administration is trying to govern and rule according to the rule of law. And under the Constitution, a regime is something very different. Right. A regime is something where they're trying to get away with, you know, unconstitutional behavior and not ruling according to rule of law. You know, and so if, if another government comes in, a true administration tries to enforce the rule law, they're going to have all sorts of papers for all sorts of evidentiary trails to follow about what actually has transpired here.

[Bill Kristol]

Well, I guess that will be a huge challenge if that happens in 2029, but we have to get through two and a half years into then. Tom, this is really not cheerful, but very helpful and very important, I think, because I think. I guess I'll find a point. I'll make a statement and ask you to react. I mean, I feel like the Democratic Party is the opposition party, really needs to internalize this. It's not about simply about opposing policies that are bad, though, is that it's not simply about opposing individuals who deserve to be opposed for their, for confirmation in the Senate. It really is about being in a resistance to, as you say, an attempt to transform the regime to an authoritarian one and a lawless one. And that implies a much more thoroughgoing effort to strengthen what guardrails might remain. Build up them, Build them up as much as you can from Congress, I mean, from the courts as well, from outside, from civil society. I just think it requires, I can't, sorry for you to put my finger on this, but a different mindset from the normal, hey, we're the loyal opposition party. We disagree on, you know, on tax policy or welfare policy.

[Tom Joslin]

Yeah. I just don't think we can stuff all this into a normal political frame. I think, you know, whatever happens. And again, I don't have a crystal ball, neither do you. And who knows, maybe the 2026 election, midterm elections will go off without a hitch, you know, and maybe they'll back down from all the threats that we're seeing. But we should at least take the threat seriously and understand the threats are authoritarian threats. They are not normal political, partisan threats. Right. These are not. This is not politics as usual. This is something very different. And I think there are a lot of people who are on guard, but maybe there are a lot of people who are also willing to make excuses and think, well, you know, it can't be that bad. Well, you know, from my perspective, we already saw January 6th, right. That was the first, you know, that was the first test run on this. Let's not give them another one, you know.

[Bill Kristol]

No, that's, that's, that's so well said. And again, and even the people who are on guard against the authoritarian threats, I think they're sort of on guard. I don't blame them for this. And they're, they're focused on this threat or that threat. Often it depends on their particular area of expertise and experience. You know, Justice Department, military types are. And that's the way it should be. I mean, we need people to be guarding it, looking at each of these areas. But we also need to step back and say there's a, it fits together. Right.

[Tom Joslin]

For all.

[Bill Kristol]

I mean, Trump's not playing four dimensional chess, God knows, and all that nonsense. But nonetheless, it is a coherent plan to a, to some degree.

[Tom Joslin]

Right.

[Bill Kristol]

I mean, it's an overall plan, I guess, is what I'm saying. It's not like they decided, let's do this injustice, let's do this at dod, that's just like different, different people with different ideas. Right. It is part of an overall attempt. Yeah.

[Tom Joslin]

I mean, that's what they did in the lead up to January 6th. He didn't, there was no, like, playbook where everything went according to the playbook, but they had a general idea or a concept and they tried to find, they tried to pull every level of power they could think of. Trump did to stay in power. Right. And that's what it looks like to me. That's look like what he's trying to do here. Doesn't mean he's gonna be successful. There's a lot of, you know, ways he could fail. But we should at least understand that that's the mindset he has and the behavior he has. And he has a lot fewer people to stand his way this time.

[Bill Kristol]

Tom, thanks for, thanks for helping us understand this and awfully important, thanks for joining me today. We'll be back. We'll, we'll do this again shortly. And I look forward to the work you'll be doing over the next two and a half years. I hope only in a way then after that you can turn to the reconstruction agenda in trying to defend against this real attempts to say to change the regime, not just to have an administration we don't like. So, Tom, keep up the good work and thanks for joining me today.

[Tom Joslin]

Oh, thank you, Bill.

[Bill Kristol]

And thank you for joining all of us, for joining us on Bull Work on Sunday.