Bulwark Takes: "Will Things Ever Go Back To Normal?" | Bulwark on Sunday
Release Date: March 3, 2025
Hosts: Bill Kristol and Sam Stein
Introduction
In this gripping episode of Bulwark Takes, Bill Kristol and Sam Stein delve into the tumultuous developments in U.S. politics and foreign policy, exploring whether the nation can ever return to a semblance of normalcy amidst unprecedented challenges. From a contentious Oval Office meeting to sweeping domestic policy changes, the hosts dissect the implications for both the United States and the global stage.
1. The Oval Office Showdown: Trump vs. Zelenskyy
The episode opens with a vivid recounting of a historic and tense meeting in the Oval Office between President Donald Trump and Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy. Sam Stein describes the escalating tension leading up to and during the meeting:
Sam Stein [02:00]: “You start to see a dramatic exchange... And you start to look, okay, where's the video? ... Zelenskyy was just there... that made it not just a tense exchange, but a momentous one, frankly.”
Bill Kristol echoes this sentiment, highlighting the shockwaves the confrontation sent through political circles:
Bill Kristol [02:30]: “I'm very shocked and amazed by it.”
The hosts analyze the potential motivations behind the confrontation, suggesting it was orchestrated to discredit Zelenskyy and pave the way for a shift in U.S. policy towards Ukraine.
2. Republican Response and Domestic Implications
Kristol and Stein explore the Republican Party's swift pivot in response to the Oval Office drama. They note the rapid alignment of Republican lawmakers in supporting Trump’s stance against Zelenskyy, often without prior indication of such views:
Sam Stein [07:10]: “...but there is very little appetite on the Hill to even push the envelope on new aid for Ukraine.”
Bill Kristol discusses the broader implications of this shift, suggesting it may signal a move towards a more isolationist or Russia-accommodating U.S. foreign policy:
Bill Kristol [05:52]: “Trump probably wants... to lay the predicate domestically for justifying a radical change of position of the US Government on Ukraine.”
The conversation highlights concerns about the weakening of bipartisan support for Ukraine and the potential for the U.S. to re-evaluate its commitments.
3. European Reactions and NATO Sustainability
The hosts turn their attention to Europe's reaction to the U.S. administration's apparent retreat from its traditional leadership role in NATO and support for Ukraine. They cite sources indicating European leaders' frustration and the continent's efforts to bolster its own defense mechanisms:
Sam Stein [15:48]: “Mark Root said that they believe a number of different countries are going to up their defense spending... they believe that there's not going to be really any US Support going forward.”
Bill Kristol adds that this shift signifies a profound transformation in transatlantic relations, questioning the future of NATO and collective security:
Bill Kristol [14:15]: “They are looking ahead. They think... the alliance is over. They are looking ahead.”
The discussion underscores the potential long-term ramifications for global stability and U.S.-Europe relations.
4. US Domestic Policy Shifts: Public Health and Science Funding
A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to analyzing drastic changes in U.S. domestic policy, particularly concerning public health and scientific research. Stein outlines the sweeping cuts to major institutions like the NIH, NASA, and NSF:
Sam Stein [20:28]: “They're just going to cut thousands of jobs from that... the idea is that they want to turn the Weather Service into a for-profit enterprise...”
Kristol emphasizes the shortsightedness of these policies, highlighting their immediate and long-term detrimental effects:
Bill Kristol [24:31]: “What's the point of that? There's no... it's just to punish and penalize public-spirited scientists?”
The hosts discuss the administration's failure to understand the critical role these institutions play in innovation, public safety, and maintaining global leadership in science and technology.
5. Long-term Consequences: Brain Drain and Public Health Risks
Kristol and Stein express deep concern over the impending "brain drain" as talented scientists and researchers seek opportunities abroad due to reduced funding and support in the U.S.:
Sam Stein [21:19]: “We're going to look back and really be shocked at the damage we've done with respect to science and scientific research.”
They also highlight the immediate public health crises exacerbated by policy changes, such as the resurgence of measles outbreaks and inadequate responses to other health threats:
Bill Kristol [26:27]: “It's so stupid... it just seems like a complete ax. Boom, 15%.”
The conversation paints a bleak picture of declining public health infrastructure and the erosion of scientific integrity in addressing critical issues.
6. Conclusion: The Path Forward Amidst Radical Changes
The episode culminates in a sobering reflection on the cumulative impact of these policy shifts. Kristol and Stein argue that the aggressive dismantling of established institutions and abrupt policy reversals are undermining both domestic stability and international standing:
Sam Stein [30:07]: “We're in a bad spot in terms of our public health expertise and in terms of the resources we're spending on it.”
Bill Kristol closes with a call to recognize the gravity of these changes and the necessity of thoughtful, incremental reforms over radical upheavals:
Bill Kristol [30:41]: “Stability mixed with some incremental change is what you need not.”
Key Takeaways
- Oval Office Tensions: The confrontational meeting between Trump and Zelenskyy may have been a strategic move to shift U.S. policy towards Ukraine.
- Republican Realignment: Rapid Republican support for Trump's stance indicates a potential pivot towards isolationism and away from bipartisan foreign policy support.
- European Frustration: European leaders are re-evaluating their reliance on U.S. support, questioning the future of NATO and collective security.
- Domestic Policy Backlash: Sudden and significant cuts to public health and scientific research institutions are jeopardizing long-term innovation and public safety.
- Imminent Brain Drain: Reduced funding and support are driving talented scientists to seek opportunities abroad, weakening the U.S.'s competitive edge.
- Public Health Crises: Inadequate responses to health outbreaks like measles underscore the critical failures in current public health strategies.
- Urgent Need for Stability: Incremental and thoughtful policy changes are essential to restore stability and prevent further erosion of critical institutions.
Notable Quotes
- Sam Stein [02:00]: “...that made it not just a tense exchange, but a momentous one, frankly.”
- Bill Kristol [05:52]: “Trump probably wants... to lay the predicate domestically for justifying a radical change of position of the US Government on Ukraine.”
- Sam Stein [07:10]: “...there is very little appetite on the Hill to even push the envelope on new aid for Ukraine.”
- Sam Stein [20:28]: “They're just going to cut thousands of jobs from that... the idea is that they want to turn the Weather Service into a for-profit enterprise...”
- Bill Kristol [24:31]: “What's the point of that? There's no... it's just to punish and penalize public-spirited scientists?”
- Sam Stein [30:07]: “We're in a bad spot in terms of our public health expertise and in terms of the resources we're spending on it.”
Final Thoughts
Bulwark Takes provides a compelling and comprehensive analysis of the current political landscape, highlighting the precarious balance between national interests and the erosion of foundational institutions. Kristol and Stein's insightful discussion underscores the urgent need for prudent policy-making to navigate the complex challenges facing the United States today.