Wrecking Ball TODDLERS Trump and Elon Are Making Susie Wiles' Life HELL

Summary

Episode Summary: "Wrecking Ball TODDLERS Trump and Elon Are Making Susie Wiles' Life HELL"

Podcast: Bulwark Takes
Host: Tim Millward
Guest: John Avlon
Release Date: February 14, 2025

---

1. Elon Musk’s Influence on the White House

The episode opens with Tim Millward introducing a pressing news story by Alexandra Ulmer from Reuters, focusing on Elon Musk's disruptive tactics within the White House. Musk's significant financial contributions, reportedly a quarter of a billion dollars, are highlighted as pivotal in securing Donald Trump's victory in closely contested races. John Avlon comments on Musk's role, stating:

“I don't think without a quarter of a billion from Elon, Trump wins a lot of those close races in individual states.”
(01:28)

Avlon further critiques Musk's methods as "extrajudicial constitutional" actions aimed at reshaping the government, suggesting that such moves represent an extreme shift in the political landscape:

“This is the more extreme version of that Overton window, but nobody should be surprised.”
(01:28)

2. Challenges Faced by Chief of Staff Susie Wiles

Central to the discussion is Chief of Staff Susie Wiles and the difficulties she encounters managing the administration amidst Musk's influence. Millward points out instances where Wiles and her team attempted to control Musk's actions, only to be consistently overridden:

“We need to message what you're doing. We need to be looped in.”
(03:00)

Avlon expresses skepticism about Wiles' ability to manage the chaos, drawing parallels to previous administrations:

“The idea that anyone can manage this and you're gonna use all these sort of, you know, office space niceties to sort of corral this chaos is just... delusional.”
(03:55)

He underscores the futility of expecting effective management in the current environment:

“There's no managing. I mean, this is the wrecking ball.”
(03:54)

3. Decline of Republican Principles and Impact on Democracy

The conversation delves into the erosion of traditional Republican values, with Avlon lamenting the party's abandonment of constitutional conservatism and defense of democracy:

“The spinelessness of the Republicans in abandoning every single one of their alleged principles, constitutional conservatism, defense of democracy, due process.”
(01:28)

Avlon warns of the broader implications for American democracy, emphasizing that the current trajectory is unsustainable:

“This was and always was intended to be a wrecking ball. And while they denied tragic 2025 and lied about it. I mean. Yeah. Good luck. Good luck, Susie.”
(08:01)

4. Background on Susie Wiles and Transition from Huntsman Campaign

Tim Millward shares his personal connection to Wiles, recounting her role as campaign manager for Jon Huntsman in the 2012 Republican primary:

“I worked with her. Back in the Jon Huntsman campaign...”
(04:32)

Avlon reflects on Wiles' transition from a structured campaign environment to the tumultuous White House, highlighting her lack of the managerial prowess exhibited by predecessors like John Kelly:

“She doesn't have John Kelly's kind of background in navigating this sort of thing. And so the idea that now you throw Musk into the mix that she's going to be able to control this in any way is just preposterous.”
(05:07)

5. Corruption, Chaos, and the Path Forward for Democrats

In discussing strategies for the Democratic Party, Avlon advocates for a focus on corruption rather than traditional class warfare. He proposes a tripartite messaging strategy emphasizing "chaos, cruelty, and corruption" to build a broad coalition:

“The best tri-part clear messaging... is chaos, cruelty and corruption. And I think you need to have the broadest coalition to confront those things.”
(10:58)

Avlon suggests that Democrats should position themselves as a "Reform Party," actively defending the Constitution and exposing corruption:

“I would focus on the corruption and build the broadest possible coalition to do that. I'd focus on defending the Constitution.”
(10:58)

6. Final Remarks and Political Outlook

Millward and Avlon conclude the discussion by reflecting on the dire outlook for the current administration and the necessary steps Democrats must take to restore integrity:

“There are no guardrails here. There's no, there's no adult who's going to make this more mature. This was and always was intended to be a wrecking ball.”
(09:24)

Avlon reiterates the necessity for Democratic reform and vigilance against the ongoing corruption:

“Calling out the corruption, I think is key.”
(10:58)

---

Notable Quotes

• John Avlon:
  “This is the more extreme version of that Overton window, but nobody should be surprised.”
  (01:28)

  “There's no managing. I mean, this is the wrecking ball.”
  (03:54)

  “The spinelessness of the Republicans in abandoning every single one of their alleged principles...”
  (01:28)

  “I would focus on the corruption and build the broadest possible coalition to do that.”
  (10:58)

• Tim Millward:
  “We need somebody to take a step back and look at how we start to get back to solving problems.”
  (11:49)

---

Conclusion

In this episode of Bulwark Takes, Tim Millward and John Avlon engage in a critical analysis of the current White House dynamics, highlighting Elon Musk's disruptive influence and Susie Wiles' struggles as Chief of Staff. They discuss the decline of Republican principles, the pervasive corruption undermining American democracy, and outline strategic approaches for the Democratic Party to counteract these challenges. The conversation underscores the urgency for reform and the necessity of building a broad coalition to defend constitutional integrity.

Transcript

[Warby Parker Representative]

If you wear glasses, you know how hard it is to find the perfect pair. But step into a Warby Parker store and you'll see it doesn't have to be. Not only will you find a great selection of frames, you'll also meet helpful advisors and friendly optometrists. Yep, many Warby Parker locations also offer eye exams. So the next time you need glasses, sunglasses, contact lenses, or a new prescription, you know where to look. To find a Warby Parker store near you or to book an eye exam, head over to warbyparker.com retail.

[Tim Millward]

Hey, everybody, Tim Millward at the Bulwark here with my buddy John Avlon, who's doing the how to Fix it podcast right here on the YouTube feed. If you haven't been checking it out, I highly recommend it. And I brought him in because I wanted to talk about a new story from Alexandra Ulmer over at Reuters. She's a great reporter and she's writing about how Elon Musk's tactics are frustrating some senior White House officials, including Chief of Staff Susie Wiles. I wanted to ponder because I've got a lot of thoughts about Susie Wiles and what is happening here. But I'm curious, John, just your. And like all this stuff has changed so rapidly. Like the, the, you know, when right after the election, the Elon thing, I mean, it could have been a blue ribbon commission that was really nothing, you know, or it could have, or it could have been what we've seen, which is just like a radical illiberal outside, you know, extrajudicial effort to remake the whole government. We're at the far end of that. But I'm just kind of wondering what you think, what you've seen on the merits and kind of the political implications.

[John Avlon]

Well, shit, man. I mean, look, this is the more extreme version of that Overton window, but nobody should be surprised. And I think Elon was, I think, critical to Trump winning. I don't think without a quarter of a billion from Elon. Trump wins a lot of those close races in individual states and so but the extent to which they're just blowing down the doors of anything extrajudicial constitutional, getting data is, you know, if you're not worried, you're not paying attention, if you give a damn about, you know, American democracy and constitutional order, the spinelessness of the Republicans in abandoning every single one of their alleged principles, constitutional conservatism, defense of democracy, due process. I mean, there was always a little schizophrenic behavior with around the unitary executive versus little R Republican values. But this is just. Damn. And obviously using new data and new technology and the world's richest man to do it. The conflict with, you know, the idea that anyone was going to be sort of the same keeper in the administration. We've seen this movie before. That's the thing. Like, we've seen this movie. You know, John Kelly couldn't do it and Suzy Walls. It's great. You know, you have an alleged adult in the room. But this place, you know, just like the deal when oligarchs back a demagogue think they can corral them. That turns out well. On the flip side, the idea that anyone's going to corral the oligarchs or the demagogues is just a fool's errand.

[Tim Millward]

Crazy. Yeah. In the story that we've got, in a recent conversation, Wiles and her staff delivered a message to Musk. We need to message what you're doing. We need to be looped in. Oh, yeah. Oh, you need to be looped in. That's interesting. There are four different sources in the story. Among the things they've said is on the press conference with the kid who may have told Donald Trump to hush. We're not really sure. I'm not a lip reader.

[John Avlon]

I'm clear, but I don't like talking about people's kids.

[Tim Millward]

But he just showed. Here's what the officials said. He just showed up with the kids. So we rolled with it. You know, nobody told him about that. The emails that were going out the fork in the road. Email. And the fork in the road has closed. Email. Apparently the White House Chief of Staff hadn't seen those emails. I mean, this does feel untenable as a way to manage a bureaucracy. I don't know, maybe not well, but.

[John Avlon]

You'Re using the word manage.

[Tim Millward]

There's no managing.

[John Avlon]

There's no managing. I mean, this is the wrecking ball. And remember, you know, I think the underlying logic from, you know, the smarter folks engaged in this project, and I think they mean this sincerely, is that you need to destroy the Republic in order to save it. I think that's the underlying animating idea. And so the idea that anyone can manage this and you're gonna use all these sort of, you know, office space niceties to sort of corral this chaos is just. It's delusional. I mean, I think, you know, presumably that's why you find it funny in addition to the fact you work for Wiles.

[Tim Millward]

Yeah, I mean, it is delusional. So it's particularly delusional. With Susie Wiles. So, yeah, so I worked with her. Back in the Jon Huntsman campaign, you were kind of, were you a supporter? Were you an official supporter?

[John Avlon]

I was always a fan of Huntsman. I mean, you know, you know, I'm a centrist Dem, but I was an independent.

[Tim Millward]

I was journalist.

[John Avlon]

But yeah, I'm always been like rooting for Team center, like, and Huntsman definitely was in that space.

[Tim Millward]

Yeah. So he was the most moderate Republican in that 2012 primary. And she was the campaign manager, which is, I think, just also just strange. I keep people, reporters call me all the time. They're like, what? Can you explain how she went from being Jon Huntsman's campaign manager to Donald Trump chief of staff? And I'm like, I wish, I wish I could. It.

[John Avlon]

Isn't there a really obvious explanation? It's not about the ideas, ambition, it's about power and money.

[Tim Millward]

Yeah, that is the obvious explanation though I think if you're, you know, if you're charged with writing a profile and the new White House Chief of staff, you need more than a tweet's length explanation. So they're trying to look like what is underneath the ambition, like what was driving her. And what I tell these people when they call is I kind of saw a mild version of what the Mustang is. She was the campaign manager for Huntsman, but we had a very, you know, domineering chief strategist on that campaign who was really running the show. And then Huntsman had kind of coterie of friends around him, you know, in the same way that Trump does, or maybe not in the same way that Trump does, the coterie of other, you know, kind of business guys. And so Susie was tasked on that campaign and this kind of micro version of this, of just like, I don't mean this in the Mussolini sense, like keeping the trains run on time. Right. It's like doing the budget, making sure that T's are crossed and I's are dotted. That was her job. And it just, it didn't work. I mean, you know, she got totally bulldozed on, on our tiny little hopeless presidential campaign and ends up leaving, ends up getting pushed out a few months in. And so anytime anybody asked me about this, I'm like, I don't see how this, how the White House ends any other way. Right. Like to your point about John Kelly, like, John Kelly was a general, you know, I, like, this is a hard nosed guy who's like led complicated organizations and dealt with big egos and big personalities. You know, say what you want about Susie Wiles. But like that isn't, like that's a, she doesn't have that kind. I mean, certainly she would even say that she doesn't have John Kelly's kind of background in navigating this sort of thing. And so the idea that now you throw musk into the mix that she's going to be able to control this in any way is just preposterous. And it is, I think, pretty telling that like anybody was gullible enough to think that it was possible. Yeah.

[John Avlon]

But not that long ago, I mean, you had a bunch of sort of Republican donors of the Mandarin class who were speaking very confidently about how this is a more responsible Donald Trump, more tempered Donald Trump. Right. I mean this was organized.

[Tim Millward]

The campaign was so much more organized.

[John Avlon]

So were just right. That kind of like, you know, beat sweetener, you know, articles you'd see over the course of the campaign. But this really was received wisdom. This was a more temperate, considered responsible Donald Trump, which was always to me self evidently delusional. And I'd like to see more of those folks called for comment, you know, from about, about their allegations. But of course. Right. You know, this is going to end predictably. The road to rights is, is, is, is gonna.

[Tim Millward]

Another old boss of mine. How do my old bosses always end up in these positions?

[John Avlon]

I mean, I worked for Rudy Giuliani, so there you go, you know, back when he was, you know, America's mayor.

[Tim Millward]

So you take the cake. We'll give you the crown there.

[John Avlon]

I mean, I mean, again, I, I nothing, I mean, I, I was proud to work for him at that time. You know, it's, you know, you're, you're only responsible for, for those moments. But, but look, man, I mean, this is gonna end badly. And, and the mere fact that, I mean, we're, we're, you know, where's the legalization of corruption on every level, These micro, you know, efforts to, you know, get rid of the Russian kleptocrat division to enforce sanctions. I mean, what's happening to Ukraine? The kneecap, the Republicans being utterly silent not only on these nominees, but the kneecapping of, you know, you know, the organizations help to defend democracy that they've traditionally defended. Yeah. There's no guardrails here. There's no, there's no adult who's going to make this more mature. This was and always was intended to be a wrecking ball. And while they denied tragic 2025 and lied about it. I mean. Yeah, good luck. Good luck, Susie. But by the Way we do need some, some adults. On the other hand, how many times we heard this from the first administration? Well, I've got to be here because if I'm not, then it's really going to be bad. That's always the rationalization. It just never holds any water.

[Tim Millward]

All right, last topic I got for you. Since you were a candidate recently, I'm noodling over this. Look, during your campaign, during that campaign last year, obviously Elon was a big donor to Trump and there was some messaging coming from the Democrats kind of about the way that Trump was going to be corrupt and that there would be insider deals with some of these rich guys around him. But, like, what has happened since the election, just as far as like four of the five richest men in the world being in the first row of the inauguration. Elon, you know, as we said at the beginning, like, at, you know, being the most involved you could have possibly imagined, like at the upper end of the imaginable scale of his involvement. Like, we're Steve Witkoff, like, his business buddy is out there, like, doing hostage negotiations, even though Steve Wykoff's kid and Trump's kids are in a cryptocurrency, like business together. I mean, it's crazy. So I'm curious, like, from like a political standpoint, as you're thinking about this, you know, how would you, if Democrats called you? Like, like, is, you know, is there something, is there a populist left angle here? Is it a cronyism angle? Like, what do you think is the best way to kind of go at this? Because, you know, some of these guys are, you know, I always say Amazon is popular. You know, like, there's some populist lefties that are like, just go after the billionaires and it's like, well, people like getting stuff to their door after 24 hours, right? So it's not quite as clear as it might seem. So I'm wondering what your political look.

[John Avlon]

It'S not about the class warfare, it's the corruption, right? I mean, history would suggest it's the corruption that ultimately takes these folks down. I think the best tri part clear messaging, and there's not been a lot of clear, consistent messaging, is chaos, cruelty and corruption. And I think you need to have the broadest coalition to confront those things. You know, what you're fighting for is the Constitution. But, but I would focus on the corruption and build the broadest possible coalition to do that. I'd focus on defending the Constitution. Now, maybe some folks, oh, it's a little hybrid I like defending democracy. I mean. Well, I think Democrats need to be the Reform Party and not the party that defends the status quo and lean into that. Like, calling out the corruption, I think is key.

[Tim Millward]

There it is. John Avalon. He's got a podcast, how to Fix it, where he does not do what I do, which is obsess over the minutiae of what's happening every day. Okay. We need somebody to take a step back and look at how we start to get back to solving problems. I'm happy you're taking on that task. Somebody's got to do it. So thanks.

[John Avlon]

Someone's got it, brother.

[Tim Millward]

All right.

[John Avlon]

It's good to see you, man.

[Tim Millward]

Subscribe to the feed. We'll be seeing you soon.

[John Avlon]

Absolutely.