Equal Justice | EP 7 | Season 2

Summary

Podcast Summary: Burden of Guilt, Season 2, Episode 7 – "Equal Justice"

Host: Nancy Glass
Release Date: March 25, 2026
Podcast by: iHeartPodcasts | Glass Podcasts

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Episode Overview

"Equal Justice" explores the aftermath of Jermaine Hudson’s wrongful armed robbery conviction in Louisiana, rooted in both a personal lie and the state’s now-invalid non-unanimous jury law—a practice with deep ties to systemic racism. This episode follows Hudson and Bobby Gumpright (whose false testimony helped convict Hudson) as they attempt to transform their painful story into a force for legal reform, pushing for justice for hundreds still imprisoned under similar unjust verdicts. Through interviews with activists, historians, and the men themselves, the episode questions what "justice" should mean for those harmed by old laws, and whether true change is possible when the system resists redress.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Verdict and Its Historical Context

• Jermaine’s Conviction: In 2000, Jermaine Hudson is found guilty of armed robbery by a 10-2 jury verdict—a split decision that left two jurors unconvinced but still led to a life-changing sentence ([03:36]).
• Impact of Non-unanimous Juries: The non-unanimous rule in Louisiana, a legacy of explicit racism, enabled such convictions ([04:46], [08:28]), rendering reasonable doubt effectively moot.
• Expert Perspective:
  • Dr. Thomas Aiello likens the assumption of unanimous juries to other basic rights:

    "They didn’t include, you have the right to breathe air because they just assume everybody breathes air. I mean, these are the kinds of things that were taken for granted as part of the system." ([07:30])

  • Context: Louisiana embedded this Jim Crow-era law ("nine out of twelve for conviction") in its 1898 State Constitution, to undermine Black jurors ([08:58]).

2. Personal Aftermath & Redemption

• Forgiveness and Advocacy: Jermaine calls Bobby to personally forgive him, vowing to turn their mutual pain into a catalyst for change ([06:04]):

  "Even though I told you in the courtroom that I forgive you, now you’re really hearing it from me ... Let’s change the narrative." – Jermaine ([06:04])

• Life After Prison:
  • Jermaine leaves Louisiana for Texas with his partner Kristin, starting over and buying a home ([11:45], [13:30]).
  • Bobby maintains sobriety, counsels those struggling with addiction, and earns a degree ([14:13], [14:25]). He keeps a "before" photo on his desk to relate to those he helps.

3. Legal Reforms—A Patchwork of Justice

• Changes in Law:

  • In 2018, Louisiana finally abolishes non-unanimous juries ([14:58]).
  • 2020: The Supreme Court declares split-jury verdicts unconstitutional—but does not apply the change retroactively. Each state must decide whether to revisit old cases ([16:10], [19:35]).
  • There are an estimated 1,500 people still incarcerated in Louisiana based on these verdicts; 80% are Black ([20:01]).

• State vs. Reformers:

  • Senator Royce Duplessis and activists, including Jermaine and Bobby, testify for a bill (SB 218) to allow retrials for people convicted by non-unanimous juries ([21:41], [22:25]).

    "Justice has no expiration date ... Do we affirm the past or do we break free from the past?" – Sen. Duplessis ([20:26])

  • Powerful Opposition: The Louisiana District Attorneys Association (LDAA) argues against the bill, citing logistics, costs, and the stability of old verdicts ([24:02]):

    "Let's talk about 1,500 major cases ... most of them ... the worst rapes and murders in Louisiana’s history." – Zach Daniels, LDAA ([25:54])

  • Counterarguments:
    Law professors and justice advocates assert the point is fairness, not convenience:

    "Any person that was convicted by a non unanimous jury did not get a fair trial. Period ... They get a do over." – Prof. Aliza Kaplan, Lewis & Clark Law School ([26:41])

4. The Bill’s Defeat and Ongoing Fight

• Senate Vote: After emotional testimony, the bill fails—9 yeas to 26 nays ([28:45]).
• Personal Reactions:
  • Jermaine is devastated, reflecting on the emotional toll for himself and others left behind ([32:28]), also noting that some victims’ families supported retrials ([32:59]).
  • Bobby expresses frustration with legislators:

    "All I heard during those hearings from the opponents was, ‘It’ll cost too much, it’ll be too hard.’ ... Until I was able to say—It doesn’t matter how much it costs. It doesn’t matter how hard it is. It has to be done because it’s the right thing to do." ([36:13])

  • Jermaine is buoyed by support calls from those still in prison:

    "For them to call me and encourage me like that ... It says a lot about the character of these guys." ([36:39])

5. Comparative Perspectives—The Oregon Story

• Oregon’s Similar Law: Like Louisiana, Oregon had a non-unanimous jury law, also rooted in discriminatory motives ([38:05]).
• Legal Reform: Oregon’s Supreme Court rules split verdicts unconstitutional retroactively—hundreds get a new chance ([41:30]).
• Lessons Learned: Despite fears, the process was more manageable than expected:

  "It was so much better than we thought it would be on every level." – Prof. Kaplan ([42:01])

6. Looking Forward

• Ongoing Advocacy: Jermaine vows to keep fighting, returning to the capitol—“somebody gotta step up, ... take one for the team” ([37:15]).
• Return to Angola: The episode ends with Jermaine preparing to visit Angola Prison for the first time since his release ([42:29]), to bring hope to those still inside.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Broken Justice:

  “Louisiana is set up for failure, especially for African Americans. It's really set up to destroy their lives.” – Jermaine ([05:35])

• On Reform vs. Cost:

  "If [Louisiana politicians] want to show the rest of the country and the world that that’s not them anymore ... you would be going back and dealing with the mistakes Louisiana made." – Bobby ([36:13])

• On Community & New Beginnings:

  "That's part of the American dream. So to have a chance to actually live that life—it's amazing." – Jermaine ([12:10])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:36] – Jermaine’s non-unanimous guilty verdict
• [04:42] – The law allowing 10-2 convictions explained
• [07:48]-[08:28] – Dr. Aiello on racist laws in Louisiana
• [14:58] – Louisiana finally ends non-unanimous juries
• [19:35] – The Supreme Court decision
• [20:26] – Senator Duplessis’ floor remarks
• [22:25] – Jermaine’s Senate testimony
• [24:02]-[25:54] – Prosecutor opposition and debate about cost/logistics
• [26:41] – Professor Kaplan on injustice
• [28:45] – Senate bill fails; the reform effort stalls
• [32:28] – Jermaine’s emotional reaction
• [36:39] – Calls from incarcerated men encourage Jermaine
• [38:05] – Oregon’s discriminatory non-unanimous jury law
• [41:30] – Oregon’s retroactive reforms
• [42:29] – Jermaine prepares to visit Angola

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Tone & Style

• Empathetic, urgent, and direct—reflecting both the pain of injustice and the resolve to right it.
• The voices of Jermaine and Bobby are intimate, honest, and deeply introspective.
• The historical analysis is clear, accessible, and forceful in its moral critique.

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Conclusion

"Equal Justice" demonstrates that ending an unjust law is not enough—true justice demands redress for those already harmed. Despite progress, entrenched interests and fears about cost and disruption continue to stall relief for hundreds still incarcerated. Yet, the episode closes with hope in action, as Jermaine, Bobby, and allies refuse to give up their fight for fairness, accountability, and redemption.

Listen for: Powerful first-person testimony, historical perspective on American injustice, and a raw look at how two men try to make the system confront its own legacy.

Transcript

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any person that was convicted by a non unanimous jury did not get a fair trial. Period. They had an unconstitutional trial. Nothing else really matters. And I'm not saying the person isn't guilty. I'm not saying the crime didn't happen. All I'm saying is they had an unconstitutional process to get to their conviction. And when we know that for a fact, when they can prove it, nothing else really matters. They get a do over.

[C]

I'm Nancy Glass. This is Burden of Guilt Season 2 Episode 7 Equal Justice In March of 2000, Jermaine Hudson sat in A large courtroom waiting to hear if he would be going home or be sent to prison. Would he be found guilty of an armed robbery that actually never happened? It was up to a 12 person jury to make that decision and they came back with a verdict in less than an hour.

[E]

Ladies and gentlemen, have you reached a verdict? Yes, sir.

[F]

State of Louisiana vs. Jermaine Hudson, Criminal District Court for the Parish of Orleans, case number 407 888, section G. We,

[C]

the jury find the defendant guilty as charged.

[E]

Mr. Foreman, is this the verdict of the jury?

[F]

Yes. My body shut down. Everything just went deaf. Everything just went silent. I could hear people talking, but everything in my body just shut down. I was like, this can't be happening to me. It happened so fast.

[C]

Over the last several episodes, we've learned how Jermaine Hudson was an unfortunate victim of Bobby Gumpride's lie. It spiraled into destroying more lives than Bobby had imagined when he was only 18 years old. What he thought was a smart cover up for a drug habit he was hiding from his parents turned into an armed robbery case that sent Jermaine to prison with a 99 year sentence. But Bobby's lie was only one part of the problem. All right, verdict is 10.

[F]

2.

[C]

Let the verdict be recorded into and

[E]

made part of the record.

[C]

The verdict was 10 to 2. That meant 10 jurors said guilty, two said not guilty. Those two jurors were not confident beyond a reasonable doubt that Jermaine had robbed Bobby at gunpoint. But at the time in Louisiana, that didn't matter. 10 out of 12 was all the state needed to get their conviction. In most states, one juror's doubt, nevermind two, means a mistrial. That lack of consensus, lack of unanimity, is reasonable doubt. But it wasn't in Louisiana for more than 100 years. That law, the non unanimous jury rule, was part of a larger, darker, more hateful history in Louisiana's criminal justice system.

[F]

Louisiana is set up for failure, especially for African Americans. It's really set up to destroy their lives.

[C]

At the end of the last episode, you heard that Jermaine called Bobby.

[F]

I said, how you doing, man?

[E]

And I hear a voice say, I bet you'd never think you would hear from me.

[C]

Jermaine called Bobby for two reasons.

[F]

I said, even though I told you in the courtroom that I forgive you, now you're really hearing it from me, from my voice, one on one, I said, I forgive you, man. I said, I really honestly in my heart forgive you. I said, so let's do something Positive. Let's reach out and change situations. Let's change other people's cases. Let's put our story out there to influence others that may have done this to a lot of other people, which I know have been done to. Let's change the narrative. Let's take the negative and turn it to something positive.

[C]

That call started a relationship no one could have imagined. Tremaine's forgiveness and warmth, along with Bobby's genuine remorse, were becoming something bigger than the two of them. And that day on the phone, they made a pact to use their story to change Louisiana. In reporting this story, our team was shocked to discover that non unanimous juries existed at all. It turns out unanimous juries were never explicitly written into the United States Constitution. But historians say it didn't have to be. It was implied.

[A]

It would have been redundant. It wouldn't have been something that they would have thought that they needed to do. I mean, they didn't include, you have the right to breathe air because they just assume everybody breathes air. I mean, these are the kinds of things that were taken for granted as part of the system.

[C]

That's Dr. Thomas Aiello. He's an expert in Africana studies and history from Valdosta University in Georgia. He's also the author of Jim Crow's Last Stand and an expert on how Southern states like Louisiana built racism into

[A]

their laws under the Civil Rights act of 1875. You couldn't say in the south, we're only going to have a white jury. It was okay to have an all white jury. That was fine, but you couldn't say that that was what you were doing.

[C]

In Louisiana, racism was written into the state constitution in 1898.

[A]

That was the state that put poll taxes and literacy tests into the constitution of the state to try to get black voters out of the system. And it was the Constitution that made juries for criminal convictions non unanimous. Only nine jurors had to agree that you were guilty for you to go to prison.

[C]

Non unanimous juries were not just allowed. They were part of a strategy engineered by a Jim Crow state determined to keep black citizens from gaining any power. Louisiana embedded this into the state constitution. At the moment when black men were given the right to serve on a jury, black men were in the minority. So there would only be one or two, maybe three people put on the jury who weren't white. But this clause meant that if the majority wanted to throw out their votes, they could. Jermaine's conviction in 1999 wasn't just about Bobby's lie. It was tethered to a legal structure built in the shadow of slavery more than a century before. Yes, Bobby lied. But Louisiana provided the perfect environment for him to get away with it. Because when reasonable doubt surfaced in that jury room, it didn't matter. An estimated 1500 other people are still incarcerated in Louisiana prisons after split verdicts. And the situation was even worse earlier in history, before the law was changed to 10 in the 1970s, only nine jurors had to agree. Eventually, Jermaine and Bobby would come together to advocate for those still incarcerated by non unanimous juries. People who had little hope of ever getting out of prison. But first they had to plant new roots and rebuild themselves. For Jermaine, that meant a radical change.

[F]

I was leaving this state. I already had that in my mind. I had to get out of Louisiana. Mass incarceration is very, very deep in Louisiana. They will paint you out to make you look like you is the most dangerous person to walk the face of this earth. They will arrest you, try you, find you guilty, and send you on your way. And you was a forgotten soul.

[C]

After that, he knew he had to leave Louisiana. The only question would he do it alone or would Kristen, the woman he loved 22 years earlier, come with him? It turns out Kristin had gone to Dallas right after Hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans. And she loved her time there.

[F]

She said, yeah, I want to go back to Dallas. I said, so what we're waiting on, let's make this happen. And she was stunned because she didn't think I wanted to go. But I told her I was leaving this state.

[C]

This was the state that had incarcerated him, deprived him of his freedom and his family. He wanted a fresh start. And Kristin was in.

[F]

She found us a place. We packed up everything and we moved to Texas. And we've been to Texas ever since.

[C]

And in Texas, he found some of the peace he'd been seeking.

[F]

I love my neighbors. I love the community, period, because everybody is nice. It's like a community where you can come outside 11 o' clock at night and you're gonna see them walking their dogs. They gonna be jogging, exercising, you see, hey, man, how you doing? You know, that's part of the American dream. So to have a chance to actually live that life, it's amazing.

[C]

With their dream coming to life, Jermaine decided to make it official with Kristen.

[F]

I honestly never felt no love like the love she gave. I didn't have the bond with any other woman that I shared with her. She was the first woman to ever come into my life and give me the love that I really was longing for. And she gave me peace. One thing I can say about her that won't ever change is her spirit, her love, and her loyalty that never changed with her.

[C]

Kristin loved Jermaine equally and we got married in November 19, 2023. Everything Jermaine manifested when he was locked up came to be.

[F]

I am about to start my own business. I own my own home in Fort Worth. That's a beautiful feeling to come home and be a homeowner, you know, to establish things. So honestly, I'm just getting started.

[C]

Bobby also had to start over again after he was released from jail. When Jermaine forgave him, Jermaine asked him to live a better life. Bobby was intent on honoring Jermaine's wish, and he has maintained his sobriety since the day he was arrested.

[E]

I went back to school online. I'm just about to finish my associate's degree now.

[C]

He is now using his past addiction to counsel others still fighting their battles.

[E]

I work with an outpatient counseling service where I get to work with people that are in the criminal justice system. Most of them are on probation for drugs or alcohol, and they get sent to me for counseling. I've got a picture behind my desk that's a before picture of me when I was on the streets of New Orleans. They'll sit down and they'll look at it, and the first thing they say is, is that you, Mr. Bobby? And I'm like, that was me. Not anymore.

[C]

In 2018, Louisiana finally ended the use of non unanimous juries, leaving Oregon as the only state still using them. Then in 2020, the United States Supreme Court went further, ruling that non unanimous jury verdicts were unconstitutional. It was a landmark decision, but it raised an even bigger question. What about the people who had already been convicted? The ones sentenced, incarcerated many for life under that very system. Here's Dr. Thomas Aiello again.

[A]

I would say every night you watch a Law and Order rerun and they drill it into your head that the only way to get fairness is to make sure that all the jurors say that someone is guilty. And if it was your loved one, it was somebody you cared about. You would want all those jurors to do that. The idea that we have in Louisiana hundreds of people in prison that are there after one or two people said they were not guilty should weigh on your conscience.

[C]

The question before the justices was simple but enormous. Would people like Jermaine, found guilty by a non unanimous jury, be entitled to a new trial. In the end, the Supreme Court declined to require retrials. Instead, they left the decision up to the individual states. And that's when Bobby got the call.

[E]

Jermaine had asked if I would join him in Baton Rouge, and like I said from the beginning, he really can't ask me anything that I'm going to say no to.

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Jermaine Hudson was convicted by a non unanimous jury in the year 2000. Nearly 20 years later, the Supreme Court ruled that split juries were unconstitutional, raising hopes that past convictions would be re examined. But the court clarified the ruling would not apply retroactively if old cases were to be reopened, the decision would rest with the states.

[A]

It is estimated There are roughly 1500 people in Louisiana prisons convicted by non unanimous juries who have used up all their chances to appeal. The Promise of justice initiative says 80% are black and have long called the Jim Crow era practice racist as soon

[C]

as Louisiana Senator Royce Duplessis joined the legislature, he began addressing the legacy of Jim Crow era juries members.

[A]

Justice has no expiration date and if we choose to vote down this bill, that's what we're saying. Tough luck. We're saying that we do not want to restore the faith in our justice system. We have an opportunity right now, Louisiana to remove this stain because right now we are the only ones who are wearing it. We were sent here to do the hard stuff and I know that this vote is hard for many of you, but in many ways it's simple. Do we affirm the past or do we break free from the past?

[E]

I didn't even know it was a non unanimous verdict. I thought everybody found him guilty. I didn't know that there was such a thing.

[C]

When Bobby learned about non unanimous juries, he was appalled and helping the next person have a chance. Another person like Jermaine felt like part of his amends.

[E]

When I had reached out and got reunited with Jermaine, I was able to learn a little bit more about the work that they were doing and Jermaine asked if I would consider helping and I couldn't ask for something better to be a part of.

[C]

Later, when Royce Duplessis joined the state Senate, he teamed up with criminal justice reform advocates to pass legislation that could bring relief to those who may have been wrongly convicted because of non unanimous juries and that's when Jermaine and Bobby were asked to tell their story publicly. In fact, that's how we first heard about Jermaine's case. In addition to speaking to the press, Jermaine and Bobby testified before the Louisiana Senate Chapter Judiciary Committee. Jermaine sat at a table wearing a green T shirt that said end Jim Crow juries and face the committee. Sitting on a dais, a crowd of supporters looked on behind him.

[F]

Today I am here in support of the non unanimous jury bill, praying that you guys pass this bill today because you still have a lot of people that suffer behind

[C]

in Bobby's case. It's pretty striking to hear how far he's come. For Bobby, it was tough to admit his crime in public, out in the open in the Louisiana State Capitol building. But he felt it was something he had to do for Jermaine.

[E]

In 1999, in the throes of my addiction, I falsely reported a crime in a desperate attempt to hide my failures. That lie, my lie led to the wrongful conviction of Jermaine Hudson. I couldn't change the past, but I could refuse to live the lie any longer while injustice continued.

[C]

In April of 2025, the committee voted on the bill. Here's what happened. Five yeas one nay

[A]

celebration this week from supporters of Senate Bill 218 as it travels to the Senate floor. Proponents say it would plug a hole in the justice system.

[C]

The bill made it over the first hurdle. It was approved by the committee, but now they had to go to the Senate floor. And there was a powerful organization that opposed the bill, the Louisiana District Attorneys association, also known as the ldaa. The executive director is Zach Daniels.

[E]

We're a nonprofit organization that is responsible for the training, liaison and lobbying for the district attorneys of the state of Louisiana.

[C]

The LDAA contends the prior split verdict system was constitutional at the time and should not be retroactively challenged. We asked Zach to explain.

[E]

I think it's a sliding scale where perhaps you do have may need more debate. Perhaps you, on the opposite end of that scale, have folks that, regardless of the amount of evidence, not even proof beyond a reasonable doubt, but proof beyond all doubt, they would never vote guilty. It often comes up inadvertently where you have deeply religious folks. One consistent thing, especially in Christian denominations, is not sitting in judgment of others and forgiveness. So if you have an inability to sit in judgment of another, you could not vote.

[C]

Zach believes a juror who appears moral and can get through the selection process won't necessarily disclose or even realize they are not able to judge a person

[E]

guilty, they would be an 11 to 1 verdict. That has nothing to do with the evidence. It has to do with a deeply held religious conviction.

[C]

But isn't it easier to be judged not guilty if you only need 10 votes?

[E]

So a person may, you could argue, get convicted more easily in Louisiana with a non unanimous verdict. But an acquittal could also happen more easily as well.

[C]

And what about the victims? How would retrying cases impact them?

[E]

Where you have a victim's family in a murder case, where you have a rape victim who in the rarity chooses

[A]

to report the crime and proceeds to

[E]

trial and faces their abuser, we have an obligation to follow through on the promises that we made there.

[C]

And then of course, there's money. What would it cost?

[E]

Let's talk about whether we can feasibly retry these cases. We do. We talk about logistics, we talk about this cost. Let's talk about 1500 major cases, most of them if they're still in prison at this point. We're talking about the worst rapes and murders in Louisiana's history.

[C]

But this applied to cases like Germain's. And it begs the question, if these people were the worst of the worst, why was the verdict not unanimous? Were all those split verdict decisions the result of religious jurors unable to sit in judgment? Aliza Kaplan, a professor of law and the director of the Criminal Justice Reform Clinic at Lewis and Clark Law School in Oregon, disagrees with the ldaa.

[D]

I mean, the truth is, on this issue, you know, any person that was convicted by a non unanimous jury did not get a fair trial. Period. They had an unconstitutional trial. Nothing else really matters. And I'm not saying the person isn't guilty. I'm not saying the crime didn't happen. All I'm saying is they had an unconstitutional process to get to their conviction. And when we know that for a fact, they get a do over.

[C]

It's why lawyers, the incarcerated, their families, and even some victims were calling on lawmakers to right an old wrong. This is Samantha Kennedy, the executive director of the Promise of Justice Initiative in New Orleans.

[B]

When we're talking about non unanimous juries, what that did is it created a conveyor belt.

[A]

It's pretty easy to put someone in

[B]

prison if you don't have to prove your case.

[D]

What happened is the district attorneys have not had to do their job for 200 years. In fact, they're taking some sort of

[B]

shortcut which ends with conviction.

[D]

There is no other purpose.

[C]

On May 21, 2025, the bill to challenge Those non unanimous verdicts, the one you heard earlier, passed out of committee, went to a vote on the state senate floor. Senator Duplessis made an impassioned plea.

[A]

What's our legacy gonna be? Because this vote, this is our legacy. I move for final passage. Thank you, Senator Plessis. Final pass. Senate Bill 218. When the machines are open, all those

[C]

in favor vote yes.

[A]

Opposed vote no.

[F]

Ma'.

[C]

Am.

[F]

Secretary.

[E]

Open machines.

[C]

And when those votes were counted, here's what happened.

[A]

The final vote was nine yeas and 26 nays.

[E]

And the bill fails to pass.

[A]

Next bill.

[C]

And just like that, it was over. The bill failed. Louisiana wouldn't revisit split jury convictions. At least for now.

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You just heard how Jermaine and Bobby joined forces to help other people who may have been convicted wrongly by a non unanimous jury get a second chance at freedom. They traveled to Louisiana's Capitol building and urged lawmakers to provide that pathway. There had been momentum, hope, headlines, testimony that moved the room. For a moment it felt possible.

[A]

The final was 9 yeas and 26 nays and the bill fails to pass. Next bill.

[C]

It was heartbreaking. For Jermaine, it meant the men he left behind in Angola who also had split verdicts who may not have been guilty, would not get the second chance he was finally living.

[F]

I literally shed tears. I broke down crying just to deny it, you know what I mean? It was crushing. It was like I say it was even more crushing watching those inmates, families, their mothers, their children, mothers, their brothers, sister. It's like they just ripped their heart out them people chest because I know that's how it felt to me.

[C]

He was especially moved by the victims of crime who had advocated for the bill to pass.

[F]

A lot of, a lot of their victims showed up in court saying that they would like to see these guys with another shot at life, you know, second chance. So that's what really had me emotional and it had me like that for probably one or two days.

[C]

Bobby had outed himself and what he had done to Jermaine publicly. He showed legislators how easily he had manipulated the system. He was wholeheartedly invested in the bill passing.

[E]

There's an app where you can watch the webcam on the Senate floor and I spent days watching that and I remember thinking it took two minutes for the vote and then they just went right along. I was here in my office and after the vote I went back in and I was just, I was devastated.

[C]

Bobby made it a goal to make amends to Jermaine. He wanted to do everything possible to own up to his mistakes and repair what he could. He felt like Louisiana should do the same.

[E]

Amends is a. Is a integral part of recovery. Right. As a recovering, recovered addict, I know how important it is to recognize the things that I did wrong and do what I can to let the people know that I harmed, that I'm sorry. And that doesn't always just mean saying I'm sorry. Sometimes that means providing some sort of tangible witness to, hey, I'm not that person anymore. And when it comes to Louisiana as a state, all those politicians stand up there and say, yes, this law was created in a horrible way. It was created with racist views, but that's not Louisiana anymore. Okay, well, that's somewhat an apology, but there's nothing tangible there. You're not showing me that Louisiana is not that way anymore, because if they were, then you would be going back and dealing with the mistakes that Louisiana made over many, many years, way prior to Jermaine and I coming into this system. It's been happening for a long time. All I heard during those hearings from the opponents was, it'll cost too much, it'll be too hard. We just can't do it. And for years, I told myself, it'll cost too much, it's too hard, and I just can't do it. And Jermaine and his family suffered for over 20 years because I kept telling myself that. And until I was able to say, it doesn't matter how much it costs. It doesn't matter how hard it is. It has to be done because it's the right thing to do. That's what Louisiana needs to do if they want to show the rest of the country and the world that that's not them anymore.

[C]

Jermaine was upset and frustrated. The bill not passing, it felt like failure. But the men he was thinking about advocating for, they weren't about to let Jermaine wallow.

[F]

What brought me back to reality is I was getting phone calls from these guys, and they were telling me to chill, relax. This is just the beginning. We need your focus. It's gonna be all right, man. For them to call me and encourage me like that and lift my spirit up like that, it says a lot about the character of these guys. So when something like that, drop, something like that come along, then, man, it's either you gonna hold or you gonna fold.

[C]

And Jermaine is not about to fold.

[F]

Lord knows I didn't have it on My mind to be an advocate like I am today. But it shows you how the universe work. You know, somebody gotta step up, somebody gotta take the lead, somebody gotta take one for the team.

[C]

So he's going back to the capitol in just a few weeks to try again and keep trying. We haven't spent much time discussing what happened in Oregon, the other state that until 2020 had the non unanimous jury system. It started in 1934, and it was similar to Louisiana in that the rule evolved from a deeply discriminatory history. Law professor Eliza Kaplan picks up the story.

[D]

There was a very big underground sort of gang world happening here back then. Jacob Silverman was on trial for murder of another gangster type person. And the newspapers followed it so carefully, like every single move was followed. They wanted to give him the death penalty. And there was one, one person on the jury that just would not go for it. And so in the end, they agreed to manslaughter.

[C]

And a single holdout juror sparked huge public outrage. How could a Jewish man have gotten away with murder?

[D]

If you look back at all the newspaper coverage, a lot of the outrage really were coming from a place of discrimination, not just against him and that he got the deal. But the jurors from these other countries can't make these decisions and aren't smart enough and those kinds of things.

[C]

Within a year, voters amended the state constitution and Oregon became one of the only states in the country to allow non unanimous jury convictions. Eliza first learned about non unanimous juries when she moved to Oregon from the East Coast.

[D]

I was floored, just floored. Like, how could this be? The whole sort of concept of convicting someone is the reasonable doubt standard. And if one or two people on a jury think that the state didn't make their case or that someone might be innocent, if that's happening, then how can you even convict someone? So I was shocked.

[C]

She was on the front lines of the fight in Oregon to retry cases.

[D]

The district attorney association in Louisiana is saying very much what our district attorney association said. And let's just be clear. The arguments are really similar to not ending the rule. They say the numbers, the money, the burden, the old cases. Right? I mean, those were the arguments to not get rid of the rule. And I just want to say that some of the arguments are not wrong arguments. It's a lot, especially in the very populated parishes or counties, there will be a lot of cases. And it is really hard on old cases or to like, contact these poor victims. And all of it. I mean, it's a mess. There's no doubt about that. It's not as much of a mess as they say. And the other thing I'd say is like, sorry, then you shouldn't have unconstitutionally convicted people for over 100 years. And the truth is the numbers of people that will never get relief, the numbers of people that can't put prove it or died already or already served their time in prison, I mean, nobody wins in this. Nobody wins. It's really sad. It's sad. I mean, you know, the whole thing is just sad and awful. But it's the state's responsibilities, both states, to make it right.

[C]

In 2022, Oregon went in a completely different direction than Louisiana. The Oregon Supreme Court ruled that the unanimous jury requirement does apply retroactively under Oregon law. It opened up possibilities for hundreds of people in prison, ranging from new trials to dismissals. The process has been completed there. I was curious, how difficult was it to go back through all those cases?

[D]

It was so much better than we thought it would be on every level. It can happen much quicker and in a more meaningful way for everyone involved.

[C]

Okay, now I want to get back to Jermaine. You've heard his story. He faced down the state. He made his peace with Bobby, but there was something he hadn't done since his release from Angola.

[F]

I was released March 26th of 2021, and I haven't been back to this place since.

[C]

Our team went with him. We're in the car as he thinks about returning to the prison where he was incarcerated for 22 years.

[F]

A lot of the fellows been asking me when I'm coming back. I wasn't really ready to face it at that moment because it was still fresh in my system and I didn't want to look at that place for a long time. But now is the time for me to go pay my respect, pay my visit to the brothers that I grew up with, and give them some hope.

[C]

We go back to Angola with Jermaine. That's next time on the final episode of Burden of Guilt. Thank you for listening. If you're enjoying Burden of Guilt, subscribe rate and review the series. With five stars, Yay. It helps other people find our show. So are you curious about what the people involved in this look like? Do you want to hear bonus content? Just check out our Instagram account, lasspodcast, where we recap each episode with show notes that include people, places, and even court records. You can reach out to the Burden of guilt [e-mail] that's burden of Guilty. Burden of Guilt is a production of Glass Podcast, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The series is executive produced and hosted by Me, Nancy Glass, produced by Carrie Hartman, also produced by Ben Federman and Andrea Gunning. Our Story editor is Monique Laborde. Our Associate producer is is Jade Abdul Malik. Our Production manager is Kristin Melcuri. Our iHeart team is ally Perry and Jessica Kreinczik. Thank you to our voice actors Trey Morgan and Ben Fetterman. Audio editing by Zach Prout mixed and mastered by Anna Maclean. The Burden of Guilt theme is composed by Oliver Baines Music Library provided by mib Music and we want to give our special thanks to Jermaine Hudson and Bobby Gumpright. For more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app or Apple Podcasts. To follow the work of the Promise of Justice initiative, go to promiseofjustice.org on Instagram and Twitter usticespromise and on Facebook and Blue sky at prom Promise of Justice.

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