Redemption | BONUS | Season 2

Summary

Burden of Guilt — Redemption | BONUS | Season 2 (April 7, 2026)

Host: Nancy Glass
Producers: Kerry Hartman, Jade Abdul Malik
Podcast: iHeartPodcasts | Glass Podcasts

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Overview

This bonus episode, “Redemption,” is an intimate, behind-the-scenes roundtable with host Nancy Glass, producer Kerry Hartman, and associate producer Jade Abdul Malik discussing the processes, emotions, and profound questions of forgiveness that surfaced while creating Season 2. The team reflects on their encounters with Bobby Gumpright—whose false testimony sent Jermaine Hudson to prison for over two decades—and the remarkable journey of honesty, remorse, and reconciliation that defines this true story. They candidly explore their own reactions, the complexity of forgiveness, and how the story struck at the core of their own lives.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Meeting Bobby Gumpright: Apprehension & Humanization

• Initial Fears and Expectations:
  • Nancy Glass shares her apprehension about meeting Bobby (03:50), influenced by years of reporting on people who’ve committed serious crimes:

    "I've interviewed a lot of people who have done bad things, a lot. And when they say they are remorseful, you don't believe it for a second... So Bobby made me nervous because I thought, this is a bad guy who did a bad thing. And then when I met him, I realized he did a bad thing, but he's not a bad guy." (Nancy Glass, 03:50)

• Remorse and Openness:
  • Bobby’s willingness to answer all questions and confront his actions directly is highlighted (05:23).

    "He was completely open. Not only did he answer everything, [he] stayed in the moment no matter how painful it was." (Nancy Glass, 05:23)

Psychological Impact: Forgiveness and Professionalism

• Jade’s Perspective:
  • Jade Abdul Malik admits to bracing for anger but instead feels admiration for Bobby’s accountability (06:20).

    "I was prepared to be pissed off… The anxiety I was feeling was more about 'how can I contain my negative emotions in this professional setting'... I really do admire Bobby because he owns every part of his mistake." (Jade, 06:20–06:53)

• Transformation Over Two Decades:
  • The team discusses how Bobby has changed, with Jade observing:

    "I don't think the Bobby that he is today would recognize the person that he was 20 something years ago." (Jade, 07:10)

  • Nancy adds:

    "Jermaine... has brought out the best in Bobby. And when I say the best, it's qualities I don't think Bobby knew he had." (Nancy Glass, 07:35)

Honoring Jermaine’s Forgiveness

• Jermaine’s Agency:
  • Kerry notes Bobby’s participation in the podcast was conditional on Jermaine’s blessing (08:02).

    "He would only participate... if Jermaine would participate as well... It's up to Jermaine. I will not do anything without his blessing. It's all about Jermaine." (Kerry Hartman, 08:02)

• Family Healing—Or Not:
  • The producers reflect on a powerful moment when Jermaine’s daughter, Jermia, meets Bobby (08:50–09:47):

    "Jermia said, he was crying. And I'm like, 'What is he crying about?... All of us should be the one crying. You crying your eyes out. Why?'" (Kerry Hartman quoting Jermia, 09:18) "Not everybody in Jermaine's circle is healed. And that's not something we really address." (Kerry Hartman, 09:47)

The Many Faces of Forgiveness

• Nuance and Boundaries:
  • The team discusses how forgiveness can take many forms and isn’t always “tidy” (10:09–11:11):

    "Forgiveness... doesn't always look the same. Sometimes... I forgive you, don’t talk to me again... Sometimes forgiveness is also, 'Let me welcome you into my home because… you’re family now.'" (Jade, 10:09)

• Forgiving for Yourself vs. Others:
  • Nancy shares a personal anecdote and therapist advice about forgiveness (11:11–11:50):

    "You need to forgive someone who did you wrong, not for him, but for you. And the reply I got was, 'I don't. I'm not going to. And I don't.'... My therapist said, 'You know what? He's right. Doesn't have to forgive.'" (Nancy Glass, 11:11)

Personal Reflection: Letting Go of Grudges

• Challenging Personal Beliefs:
  • Kerry asks if seeing Jermaine’s path has shifted their own approach to forgiveness (11:58).
  • Nancy:

    "I don't hold grudges... I don't want to pay rent for the space that person is taking up in my head." (Nancy Glass, 12:37)

  • Jade:

    "Working with Jermaine and Bobby has made me realize... it’s really important for us to hear stories like these so that we have a wealth of information of what's possible for humanity." (Jade, 12:54)

The Burden—and Gift—of Empathy

• Lasting Relationships:
  • All agree that working on this story has forged deep bonds with both Jermaine and Bobby (13:44–13:56).

    "Jermaine's somebody I feel like I'm going to know forever. And yes, and Bobby... they kind of feel like part of our Glass podcast family now." (Kerry Hartman, 13:44)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• (03:50) "He did a bad thing, but he's not a bad guy. He's an ordinary guy who made a terrible decision... It's obvious he was really remorseful." — Nancy Glass
• (05:23) "He stayed in the moment no matter how painful it was. He teared up a few times." — Nancy Glass
• (06:53) "I really do admire Bobby because he owns every part of his mistake... all the transgressions that he’s imposed on other people’s lives." — Jade Abdul Malik
• (08:02) "He would only participate... if Jermaine would participate." — Kerry Hartman
• (09:18) "What are you crying for?... Why are you crying so hard?... The damage is done." — Jermia (via producer retelling)
• (10:09) "Forgiveness doesn’t always look the same… sometimes forgiveness is 'you’re family now'... I don’t know if I could do that with someone who’s taken 22 years of my life." — Jade Abdul Malik
• (12:37) "I don't want to pay rent for the space that person is taking up in my head." — Nancy Glass

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:32] — Kerry & Nancy discuss initial apprehension in meeting Bobby Gumpright
• [05:23] — Nancy reflects on Bobby’s openness and refusal to deflect
• [06:20] — Jade shares feelings before and after interviewing Bobby
• [07:10] — Reflections on Bobby’s personal transformation
• [08:00] — Kerry and Nancy discuss ground rules and Jermaine’s central role
• [08:50] — Jermia’s humorous yet revealing reaction to Bobby’s emotional visit
• [10:09] — The nuances of forgiveness in real life
• [11:11] — Nancy’s personal thoughts on forgiveness and therapy insight
• [11:58] — How the story challenged the team’s own beliefs about holding grudges
• [13:44] — Declarations of lasting impact and new family bonds

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Summary

“Redemption” brings listeners behind the curtain of Burden of Guilt, moving beyond reporting to examine how working with Jermaine and Bobby confronted each team member with their own ideas about blame, transformation, and the real work of forgiveness. The episode is earnest, layered, and honest about human complexity: Bobby’s shame-laden honesty, Jermaine’s extraordinary capacity for forgiveness, and the unfinished business for some in Jermaine’s family. Through their dialogue, Nancy, Jade, and Kerry reveal how this story not only sought justice, but also forced everyone involved to reconsider how they live—and forgive—today.

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Transcript

[Host]

This is an iHeart podcast.

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[Kerry Hartman]

Hi, I'm Kerry Hartman, producer of season two of Burden of Guilt. Today, associate producer Jade Abdul Malik and I are very excited to talk with Nancy Glass. As you know, she's the host and executive producer of our series, but this show was a team effort. Jade, Nancy and I have been producing this show together for almost a year. For us, this story raised a lot of questions about forgiveness in our own lives. So we got together as a team to talk about it. So, Nancy, you had real apprehension. I mean, we were in the office, and you were concerned about meeting Bobby Gumpright and him walking into our studios, knowing the story, having read all about the story and what happened in court, what he did to Jermaine. And you've literally interviewed, I would say, some of the most heinous criminals in recent memory. I can think of one in particular.

[Nancy Glass]

Jeffrey Dahmer.

[Kerry Hartman]

Jeffrey Dahmer. Bobby for sure did something that many would deem unforgivable, but he didn't kill anybody. What about him coming in to the studio made you feel uncomfortable?

[Nancy Glass]

Well, you know, it's kind of a mixed bag. I mean, we're all attracted to a really good story, but we feel responsibility to these people who give us their story. And, you know, when you read what happened to Jermaine, your heart is so broken that I was afraid to meet Bobby. I thought, oh, what's this guy gonna be like? Jermaine had lost so much of his life. It makes you really angry. Except that he wasn't angry. So you also have to respect his point of view. And as you pointed out, I've interviewed a lot of people who have done bad things, a lot. And when they say they are remorseful, you don't believe it for a second. They've got excuses, and, you know, there's something wrong with their psychopathology. So Bobby made me nervous because I thought, this is a bad guy who did a bad thing. And then when I met him, I realized he did a bad thing, but he's not a bad guy. He's an ordinary guy who made a terrible decision influenced by drugs, which is not an excuse. And he certainly doesn't make excuses. It was pretty obvious from the beginning that he was really remorseful.

[Kerry Hartman]

Were there any questions that you asked him that he just refused to answer?

[Nancy Glass]

No. He was completely open. Not only did he answer everything, one technique a lot of people use is they completely go in another direction, so you kind of forget the question and you follow that other direction. He didn't. He stayed in the moment no matter how painful it was. He teared up a few times. You know, it was tough for him, and yet he wanted to tell the story.

[Kerry Hartman]

Jade, I was also curious about your response. You came in a little bit later when we had already established a connection there. And I know that you have deep interest in the prison system and it's something that you want to spend part of your career working on, investigating. You were always friendly and professional with Bobby. What was going on in your head, though?

[Nancy Glass]

Were you nervous like I was to meet him? Were you nervous about how you felt about him?

[Host]

I wasn't nervous. I was prepared to be angry. I was prepared to not be able to handle myself professionally. I was prepared to be pissed off. I was prepared to have these really disrespectful thoughts, but I was. The anxiety I was feeling was more so about how can I contain my negative emotions in this professional setting rather than I'm about to meet someone or converse with someone that did a really terrible thing and that I assume is just a terrible person through and through.

[Kerry Hartman]

And what do you think of him now?

[Host]

I really do admire Bobby because he owns every part of his mistake, he owns every part of his wrongdoings, all the transgressions that he's imposed on other people's lives. Not just Jermaine's, not just his family, but also himself.

[Nancy Glass]

Yes.

[Host]

And I think that goes a long way. I don't think the Bobby that he is today would recognize the person that he was 20 something years ago and vice versa. And I think there's been an incredible transformation with so much evidence that it's hard to dislike him. And it also helps that Jermaine sees the goodness in him too, and chose

[Nancy Glass]

to forgive him and wants the best for Bobby.

[Host]

Exactly.

[Nancy Glass]

Like he didn't have to call Bobby and say, listen, you gotta get it together. You gotta do this right? And he did. I mean, Jermaine is. He's a spectacular person. He really is. And he has brought out the best in Bobby. And when I say the best, it's qualities I don't think Bobby knew he had. And he does. What about you, Carrie?

[Kerry Hartman]

Were you nervous?

[Nancy Glass]

What did you think? Because you're the one who talked me

[Kerry Hartman]

into doing the story I wasn't nervous because I had spent literally hours on pre interviews with him, and I had the same experience that you did, Nancy, which is he didn't deflect any questions. He never made an excuse, and he would only participate in a podcast if Jermaine would participate as well. Like, those were the only. The only ground rules he had was, it's up to Jermaine. I will not do anything without his blessing. It's all about Jermaine. So I felt pretty confident that the person he was on the phone, he would be in person as well.

[Nancy Glass]

What did you leave out of the podcast that you would still like to share with people?

[Kerry Hartman]

There was one thing where Jermaine's daughter Jermia describes Bobby coming to their home for the first time. And Kristin is very welcoming. And you heard this in the last episode where Kristin's like, it's over. She hugs him. She welcomes him into their house. And Jermia said, he was crying. And I'm like, what is he crying about? What is he crying about? I should be the one crying.

[Jade Abdul Malik]

You said something funny when we talked last time. You said that Bobby was crying and you were like, what are you crying? Right? Like, I did. I did. I said, what are you crying for? Like, why are you crying? Like, all of us should be the one crying. You crying your eyes out. Why? You know, like, why are you crying so hard? And it wasn't to be. It might have came off as me being mean or harsh or something, but that was my attention. I just was looking at him like, what you crying for? Like, you know, like, what you going for? Like, you know, the damage is done.

[Kerry Hartman]

Of course, she was polite and she followed her dad's lead. But not everybody in Jermaine's circle is healed. And that's not something we really address. But when she's like, what are you crying about? I. That did make me chuckle that she's making wisecracks about it and still dealing with it.

[Host]

Yeah, I would agree. I was thinking of, like, when Bobby was invited to the home for the first time. When Bobby parked outside of the door on the driveway, he had a moment to himself. He prayed to himself, and he saw Jermaine approach the car and they walked in together. And so I think that's just a testament to how unified these men are in going through this journey together, knowing how nuanced forgiveness really is. And it doesn't always look the same. Sometimes forgiveness, people will be like, I forgive you. Don't talk to me again. Or, I Forgive you. But there are very strong boundaries I put in place to protect my heart. And sometimes forgiveness is also. Let me welcome you into my home because you're not just a friend to me. You're family now. I want you to be a part of every milestone from this day forward. That's. I don't know if I could do that with someone that's taken 22 years of my life.

[Nancy Glass]

You know, the thing about forgiveness is, like I said to somebody very close to me, you need to forgive someone who did you wrong, not for him, but for you. And the reply I got was, I don't. I'm not going to. And I don't. And, you know, the part that's for me, I won't. I'm not forgiving. And I was like. I talked to a therapist about it. I'm not saying that I'm in therapy, but I am. Yeah. She said, you know what? He's right. Doesn't have to forgive.

[Host]

So it just shows that it's, like, so noble to make and a hard choice to make, too.

[Kerry Hartman]

Okay. The last thing I wanted to bring up was staying on the forgiveness track for a second. Yeah. Has it challenged anything in your own life? So when Jermaine was speaking, a lot of times, I was thinking about experiences with people who I have walked away from for various reasons. Sometimes the reasons were pretty valid. Sometimes they were more petty. And if this man can forgive somebody who took all those years away from him, why do I hold on to these grudges that I hold onto? And I wondered if any of that came up for you.

[Nancy Glass]

Well, I don't hold grudges because it's like what I used to say to my kids about jealousy. It's a wasted emotion that other person doesn't know. They have no idea what's going on in your head. And I don't want to pay rent for the space that person is taking up in my head. Jade.

[Host]

Yeah. There have been several instances where those feelings were coming up for me where I would feel bitter about friendships that went astray for whatever reason, miscommunication. And selfishly, I would always feel like, okay, I need to get the final word on this, because I need you to know how you've wronged me, how I'm in the right and you're in the wrong. And in some ways, working with Jermaine and Bobby has made me realize, like, that part doesn't matter. And it's really important for us to hear stories like these so that we have a wealth of information of like what's possible for humanity and how can we be better people in our day to day lives and how we show up in the world at large.

[Kerry Hartman]

Jermaine's somebody I feel like I'm going to know forever. And yes, and Bobby and Bobby, like they kind of feel like part of our Glass podcast family now.

[Nancy Glass]

Yeah.

[Kerry Hartman]

Thanks so much you guys. It was really great to talk about these things that we talk about offline.

[Host]

I know.

[Nancy Glass]

Really, what's the difference?

[Kerry Hartman]

There's no difference. But it was really fun to share a little bit with the audience. So thanks.

[Host]

Definitely. Thank you.

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[Ryan Reynolds]

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[Kerry Hartman]

Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month required intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees, extra fee, full [e-mail] this

[Host]

is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.