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- [00:02]
Kate Winkler Dawson
This is exactly right.
- [00:06]
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- [00:38]
Kate Winkler Dawson
I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the last 25 years writing about true crime.
- [00:44]
Paul Holes
And I'm Paul Holz, a retired cold case investigator who's worked some of America's most complicated cases and solved them.
- [00:51]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most compelling true crimes.
- [00:56]
Paul Holes
And I weigh in, using modern forensic techniques to bring new insights to old mysteries.
- [01:01]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime cases through a 21st century lens.
- [01:09]
Paul Holes
Some are solved and some are cold. Very cold.
- [01:13]
Kate Winkler Dawson
This is buried bones. Hey, Paul.
- [01:37]
Paul Holes
Hey, Kate. How are you?
- [01:38]
Kate Winkler Dawson
I'm well. It has been months since we have been on our virgin cruise. We had a great time, and this was an experience you and I have never had before. We've never done a live show, ever. What a time to present one of the most awful cases in front of this big audience on a moving ship. I mean, what could go wrong?
- [02:00]
Paul Holes
Well, I think the live event. I mean, we were sitting on stage and of course, people are watching us, which now that we're on YouTube, of course people are watching us. But you had two computers in front of you. I had a computer in front of me. We had screens behind us. So it was definitely the challenge was trying to keep everything sort of straight. So it was actually something that was consumable both from a visual and an audio standpoint.
- [02:32]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Yeah, I loved the energy of the audience. I had not expected that before. I know you've done a lot of live stuff, as have I with. With CrimeCon. It's just different when you're presenting this information and, you know, they haven't heard it. And to kind of hear, you know, people kind of going, oh, when you hear sad things or people clapping or laughing every once in a while, if we crack a joke at the appropriate time. So it was a. It was really kind of a big difference for me. I really enjoy. I want to do more of those shows. I think it was great.
- [03:01]
Paul Holes
Yeah, no, I really do enjoy the live events, live episodes. Just because, like, what you said, there is an energy, you know, and so interacting with the audience in real time, you know, it's. It's almost like, you know, when I testify, you know, I'll look at the jury, and if I see juror starting to nod as I'm talking, it's like, okay, I'm relating with them. So up on stage, when we're doing Black Dahlia, seeing out to the audience and how the audience was responding to us, it's like, yes. You know, they're. They're actually enjoying this and they're consuming the information. They're absorbing it.
- [03:35]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Yeah. And it's such an important story. So for anybody who's listening or watching, if you have not gone back around the Halloween time to listen to or watch our bonus episode about Black Dahlia, you really should, because it's a hell of a case. And I thought Paul did a fantastic job. And I get constant messages from people saying, I have heard this case thousands of times. I've watched documentaries on it. I've never heard some of the stuff that Paul talked about. And that's the goal. We're taking old cases and taking a fresh look. That's the whole thing.
- [04:05]
Paul Holes
Right. And that's where, like with Black Dahlia. Because of course, I had heard sort of the mythology in terms of the various types of investigative theories, but I don't think you had somebody previously that has my background take a look at what happened to her, you know, and in this particular case, which was so helpful was the actual photos. I mean, really good photos of her at the crime scene that I could interpret. And it was stunning how different what my thoughts were versus what everybody else's investigative theories were. And, you know, it's sort of like, well, I've worked these types of cases. You know, this is where it's like, I know what's going on here. And I. I felt that I, you know, came to the right conclusions. And hopefully, you know, people who are wanting to. To listen to it in the future will understand, you know, that. Okay. You know, I am at least bringing a level of insight that I don't think has been brought onto that case before.
- [05:05]
Kate Winkler Dawson
And I think what's so great about what you do is if somebody who doesn't understand things to, you know, as a professional investigator, they'll take a piece of evidence and misinterpret it. And when that happens, just like if you're an inexperienced, you know, person in law enforcement, you have a case, and if you don't know, if you misinterpret one piece of evidence, it shoots you Down a road that is not the right road. And it sounds like that that has kind of happened in this case somewhat, but we don't have answers. And that's one of the big problems. We don't know if you're right. It'd be great to know, but we.
- [05:36]
Paul Holes
Don'T know, you know, law enforcement, when it's the unusual and, and when you're dealing with, let's say a, a predator and a predator that's a stranger to the victim. Most law enforcement has never worked that type of case. And they don't understand some of the, the paraphilias, some of the really deviant behaviors that these predators have. And so they try to take a case and fit it into something, what they know, what they've experienced before. And that's where, you know, in Black Dahlia, having worked predatory cases, I'm saying, oh, hold on, I'm seeing exactly what's going on, you know, and it's a horrific case when you really get down to the details of what happened to her.
- [06:20]
Kate Winkler Dawson
So we've talked about how wonderful the cruise was and I think a lot of people responded to Black Dahlia because it is this legendary, really disturbing, really just thought provoking case. So this is the case that I'm getting ready to present to you is one of those cases too. It's a well known case. I don't know if you've ever heard of it before. I'm not gonna tell you the name of it yet. But it's a complicated case. But I wanna warn people from the beginning that this is about sexual assault. And it does involve sexual assault and murder of children. So, you know, kind of going into this, this is already a very difficult case. But this is one of those big cases that I've had a lot of people ask for your opinion about. So don't mess it up. Okay.
- [07:06]
Paul Holes
I'll try. Not Kate.
- [07:07]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Okay, let's set the scene. We're in Villisca, Iowa, and this is a small but prosperous town of about 2,500 people. And this is 1912. So this is before Prohibition, before the Great Depression, before all of that. So this is just a sleepy town, but you know, a town that has some money. And we're going to be talking about one particular family. So this was a really weird for some folks in the town, it's about 7:30 in the morning and it is Monday, June 10th. As I said, 1912. So there is a woman who's been up for kind of a long time. Her name is Mary Peckham. And she has some very affluent neighbors. They're called the Moores, the Moore family. And she says that at 7:30 in the morning on a Monday, that house would have been buzzing because, you know, you've got people who are doing chores, you've got the kids doing chores. And you know, the father would have gotten up. There just would have been a lot of people around because they have four kids and they are 11 and 10 and seven and five, three boys and a girl, and they are loud. As you know, we both have had children that age. So she's alarmed, she's very alarmed that nothing is happening at that house, it shouldn't be quiet. And also that the shades are drawn. And I know that that's one of those important things where you know your neighbors really well. You know, if there's been a strange car parked in the driveway for a long time, that maybe something happened. We've talked about the family who left the laundry out and it got soaked in the water and the rain and that's how people knew something was wrong. So Mary Peckham thinks something's wrong at the Moore house because the shades are drawn and there's nothing happening.
- [08:52]
Paul Holes
Now is this like a farm town or like ranches? Is that what we're talking about? Mary's house is a distance away from the Moore's house.
- [09:01]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Mary is close enough so that she's able to see the shades are drawn at the house. And this is not a particularly large house. I'll show you a little bit about it in a minute. But this is not three acres away. They're fairly close. So she's able to make some observations. And obviously she can hear that nothing's happening with all those kids. So she goes to the farmhouse, she knocks on the door, there's no answer. So she contacts the Moore's relative, who's a guy named Ross Moore. And he gets there about it looks like 45 minutes later. And he taps on the window, he unlocks the west parlor door and he enters and the house is totally dark. So you've got a mother and a father and four kids in this house. Not only are the blinds drawn, but the front door's glass is covered by a black skirt that's been ripped in half. So kind of like my cottage, everything's blacked out. You can't see anything that's happening inside from the outside. He makes his way to the ground floor guest bedroom. So this house looks about two stories, you know, two story white farmhouse. And on the first floor there's A guest bedroom. He goes there, he sees two small figures covered in blood soaked bed sheets and pillows. And he assumes it's two kids. So he doesn't even go upstairs.
- [10:23]
Paul Holes
Well, at least from a preservation of a crime scene, you know what is actually going on at that moment as he's going through the house? Are people actively being hurt? Is there an offender that's still in there? But we can't expect Ross, you know, to take that type of responsibility on.
- [10:39]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Yeah, I was thinking more of a Ross not getting killed kind of point of view.
- [10:45]
Paul Holes
Yes.
- [10:46]
Kate Winkler Dawson
I'm not sure I'd go upstairs either. Okay, so Ross leaves, he calls the police. It's a guy named Henry who goes by Hank Horton. And he, he is the marshal of Villisca, but he doesn't have a lot of training here. So he gets here at 8:30, same time as another relative came. So the Moores are kind of all over this town of Villisca. It sounds like they go into the guest bedroom. That's where Ross points him. And Hank uncovers two figures. And they are two little girls. Eight year old Ina May Stillinger and 12 year old Lena Gertrude Stillinger. And you'll notice that they are not named Moore. These are sleepover visitors.
- [11:32]
Paul Holes
Yeah, I was going to say because you said the Moores had four kids, three boys and one girl.
- [11:36]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Right. Okay. So they were brutally bludgeoned. And you know, these were, as I said, family friends who wanted to spend the night. And so the Moors said, yes, they are dead. And I have details on Moore murders. I also have details on the specific injuries about these two little girls who are not Moores. So where do you want to head next?
- [12:00]
Paul Holes
Why don't we kind of walk through the crime scene first and then we can go back and revisit what happened to each of the victims.
- [12:07]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Okay, I'm going to skip over the observations of the guest room and where the two little girls were and we'll come back to that. So it sounds like the only bedroom on the ground floor is this one guest room. So they go upstairs. Every mirror in the house is covered with a blanket or an apron or a skirt or some other garment.
- [12:30]
Paul Holes
Oh, now that's significant.
- [12:32]
Kate Winkler Dawson
In the main bedroom where the parents would be, there is blood that has been splattered across the headboard and onto the wall. It soaks the clothes that cover the faces of the parents. The father is 43 year old Josiah Moore and then his 39 year old wife is Sarah Moore. They're laying side by side and they appear to have been sleeping peacefully when they were attacked. And Sarah is still wearing her gold wedding band, but both of their faces are completely obliterated. Is I think, what Hank has said. The investigator. Josiah's face was beaten so brutally with the blunt side of an axe. They say that his face and his eyes were no more than pulp. Sarah's face has been hacked with this sharp edge of an ax, Reducing it to approximately 1 inch slices. Slivers of their skulls, which are about 2 or 3 inches long, are scattered throughout the bed. Such brutality, they think, resulted in about 20 to 30 blows per person. I do know that Josiah received the most blows out of everybody.
- [13:39]
Paul Holes
Okay. And he's also, you know, the adult male inside the house. He's the biggest threat. But also, is he. Due to the volume of blows, does that indicate that maybe he was more of the intended target, that the offender had greater angst against Josiah than the other family members. So we'll see how this develops. I just want to clarify. I think you said that their heads were covered with clothing, and that was both Josiah and Sarah's heads, Clothes that cover their face.
- [14:09]
Kate Winkler Dawson
You're right. Yep.
- [14:10]
Paul Holes
Okay. All right. That's another significant behavioral aspect. You know, there's. There's potentially. And this is also taking a look at. At the crime scene. You know, sometimes you could see where there's what I would refer to as a spatter guard that offenders can use. You know, they're recognizing, you know, all of a sudden, they've got a lot of blood and brain matter that's going all over the place. And so they'll put this guard, the spatter guard, in place as they inflict more blows. But if it's. If it's occur after they kill both Josiah and Sarah, then that's behaviorally very significant. That indicates that, you know, the offender is potentially has a closer relationship to the victims than what a stranger would and or is not accepting what his actions have been. And he's trying to, you know, in essence, block the sight of the victims and what he did to the victims.
- [15:09]
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- [15:52]
Paul Holes
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- [16:03]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Well, let's keep moving along here. We're going to stay in the main bedroom with Josiah and Sarah. The investigators look to the top of the ceiling and this is 7ft 4 inches above the floor. Okay. That's how tall the ceiling is. There are slashes in the wallpaper made by the upswing of an ax. Plaster from the ceiling powders the bed and the floor. One of Sarah's shoes is on its side near the bed and blood that had filled the shoe has poured onto the floor. And there's more blood that speckles the shoe's sole. So bloody, bloody scene. What does that mean? Is he standing on the bed and the ax is literally hitting the ceiling as he's bludgeoning them?
- [16:46]
Paul Holes
Right now I can't say where the offender is at relative to the victims when he's inflicting the blows, but a 7 foot 4 ceiling is a very low ceiling. And you think about the length of an ax and if you have, you know, an average height person, male or female, you know, if you're going to swing, if you're holding the ax towards the end of the handle like axes typically are used, and you swing that ax up in order to strike a blow, you're going to hit the ceiling. You're going to hit an eight foot ceiling. You know, typically to use such a long weapon inside a, an average height rooms with average ceiling height, you have to choke up on the handle of the ax or you have to swing it at a, at a diagonal to prevent hitting the ceiling. But it also sounds that the, the ax is also striking the wall and is damaging the wallpaper. And I imagine you haven't said where that is. Is that above the headboard? If it's above the headboard, then this is now putting the offender potentially up onto the bed or right off to the side of the bed. And with a side, you know, more of a diagonal type swing is now striking the wall. So it, you know, there's different ways that that could occur. And that's all part of the, you know, with photos I might be able to interpret.
- [18:09]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Well, I'll tell you something that's interesting. At the farmhouse that my parents owned from 1890, one thing that always shocked me about it, that it was hard to get used to for some reason, is there was wallpaper on the ceiling.
- [18:22]
Paul Holes
Oh, okay.
- [18:23]
Kate Winkler Dawson
So when we talk about the wallpaper, it is on the ceiling in this case. So all of the gashes are on the ceiling because it's wallpapered.
- [18:30]
Paul Holes
Yeah. And so this is just. Now you have a longer weapon that is striking the ceiling. As you know, the offender is swinging the ax.
- [18:40]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Okay, here's the thing. The murder weapon is found on the ground floor with the first two girls. Do you want to go back? When we do that, we have to talk about their bodies, but then we have to go back upstairs because we have more people.
- [18:53]
Paul Holes
Actually, let's just continue walking through the upstairs so I know the extent of the crimes and then we can get into the details at each location.
- [19:02]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Okay. Now it gets extremely hard. This has been hard already. But now we're gonna go to the kids room upstairs, down the hall from the parents room. They walk in and there are toys scattered. And then they see the bodies lying on their beds, faces covered, are 11 year old Herman, one of the boys, 10 year old Mary Catherine, the one girl, 7 year old Arthur Boyd, and 5 year old Paul Vernon Moore. Their small skulls are all crushed. Upswings from the ax slice the ceiling plaster eight feet. Okay. From the floor. So same kind of thing. Everybody's dead. And that's the end of our victims. So we've got the four more kids in one bedroom, we've got the parents, so you've got six and then you've got the two little girls who were friends of the one little girl and they decided to spend the night in the guest room.
- [19:58]
Paul Holes
And based at least with what you've told me, it sounds the parents were in their bed as if they had gone to bed. Normally the kids are in their beds. Do they have individual beds? Do they share beds? Do we have any details on that?
- [20:16]
Kate Winkler Dawson
It does look like they have individual beds.
- [20:18]
Paul Holes
And then the two non family members, the two little girls that are downstairs in the guest room, they're also, you'd think, okay, they're the guests. So now they're sleeping separate from the family. So it sounds like this crime occurred after the Moores and the, and the two guest girls went to bed.
- [20:39]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Yes.
- [20:39]
Paul Holes
And possibly everybody was asleep when they are being struck with the ax.
- [20:45]
Kate Winkler Dawson
It sounds like it so far. We need to now go back downstairs because we finished with the number of victims we've had. So we have a total of eight. Six Moores and two stillingers.
- [20:58]
Paul Holes
Yes.
- [20:59]
Kate Winkler Dawson
So back downstairs with the two little girls. So remember it's eight year old Ena and 12 year old Lena. They have their faces so badly mutilated that they are unrecognizable. Blood soaks the sheets and pillows but has not seeped through the mattress. The youngest girl is on her back and she's on the part of the bed that's next to the wall.
- [21:21]
Paul Holes
Okay.
- [21:21]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Her face has been sliced with the sharp edge of an ax. The older child, so that's 12 year old Lena, lies across the bed face down. Her nightgown is pushed up above her waist. Her underwear is pulled off and her left leg is bent, exposing her genitals. One of Lena's feet are hanging off the side of the bed. There is an oil lamp at the foot of the bed that illuminates her exposed body. The lamp's glass chimney has rolled under a dresser on an adjacent wall. In addition to the wax to her head, one of her arms is also wounded. It's raised under her pillow, resting on a pool of blood on the inside of her left thigh there is a bloody mark. An old dull 4 pound single bitted ax is partially wiped clean and it leans against the wall. And this is why this story is known as the Villisca Ax murders.
- [22:23]
Paul Holes
Yeah. So now it's a matter of trying to sequence how the offender went through and killed eight people inside this house. You know, so right now, you know, you've talked about, I mean, Lena, who's 12 years old, she is, of the kids in the house, she's the oldest female and of course you have Sarah, you know, who's upstairs, but there's no indication that there was sexual assault on Sarah. One of the things that I would be looking for with Lena, is there any indication that she had been killed prior to the sexual assault or did the sexual assault occur first? Right now with, with Ena laying on the bed dead and Lena on top of her but kind of sideways to where now her lower body is in a position to where the offender could engage with sex with her. My suspicion is that the two girls were, were very possibly killed. The family was then killed upstairs and the offender came back and sexually assaulted Lena and that's why the ax is in that room. That's the last location. He's already done killing every, everybody in the house. So he's leaving the ax in the, in, in the Guest bedroom while he sexually assaults Lena and walks out. You know, right now that's my kind of my working theory. Without taking a look at any of the photos.
- [23:50]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Would you have to know the layout of this house or does initially, does this seem like a crime of opportunity or is this someone who has been stalking this family or a member of the family or anything like that? Who would need to know the layout of the house?
- [24:03]
Paul Holes
The big variable is the, the family being awake versus being asleep. And right now I would offer up that I believe that everybody is asleep inside the house. So this affords an offender who can move through the house to lear its layout and determine where everybody is at, you know, and be what we'd consider, you know, like a cat burglar, you know, can, can silently move through the house and then plot out, you know, how to go about to kill everybody in the house. So that's, you know, that's where it's going to be hard under those circumstances to say that this offender had prior knowledge of the layout of the house. Now you know, the aspects of the crime and the unusual aspects of the crime are, you know, the Moores, you know, they're all covered up. So the adults are covered up, the kids are covered up. Were Ena and Lena's heads covered up?
- [25:02]
Kate Winkler Dawson
It doesn't sound like it. Well now remember that Lena, the 12 year old was face down.
- [25:07]
Paul Holes
Right.
- [25:07]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Ina was face up. But I don't see anything about it being covered. Could be, I just don't see it in this research.
- [25:12]
Paul Holes
Okay, so the non family members are not covered and all the moors are covered. So there's a, there's a difference between these victims in the offender's mind. Now you've also mentioned that the offender has. All the shades are drawn. The front door, the, you know, the, the windows to the front door, you know, have a black skirt over them. All the mirrors in the house have been covered. Right? Now this is something the offender isn't doing. Anytime you see an offender do something that is not necessary for, you know, committing the crime or the escape, the mirrors are nothing, right? There's nothing about the mirrors that are a threat to the offender. He doesn't want to see him or herself. Now with Lena being sexually assaulted, that suggests that the offender is a male. You know, I don't know if they identified semen that would be conclusive to say it's a male. I mean, but we know that it's very, very unusual in a violent crime like this for a female to sexually assault a female. So right now I would say it's strongly looking like, you know, chances are the offender is, is male. But why is he covering the mirrors? You know, that is significant because, and it's, it's something we can't necessarily know conclusively because it's internal to the offender. But he doesn't want to see himself in the mirror, you know, and so is he going through the house before he kills the family and covering up the mirrors or does he do this afterwards? But most certainly he's taking the time to prevent visibility from outsiders looking into the house and then the covering up the moors versus Ina and Lena, the two non family members. I mean, he sounds like he's closely associated with the moors. And then the neighbors were somebody that he wasn't as closely attached to.
- [27:06]
Kate Winkler Dawson
One interesting note I was just reading about, according to, you know, a website which is Murder House, which is, is dedicated to the Villisca murders, they say that this was actually the sewing room where Lena and Ena were. And they just kind of converted it on the fly to a guest room and put a twin bed down there so they could spend the night. So this was not a normal one, a normal room. Also the note that this was Josiah's axe. So this was not something that was brought, it was found there. And I still don't understand people who do that, who just discover an, you know, it's like, let's just see what they have and I'll use whatever they, whatever they have there, you know.
- [27:44]
Paul Holes
But the use of a weapon inside the victim's house, whether it be an ax, whether it be a baseball bat, a knife out of the kitchen drawer, you know, drapery, cordage, you know, from inside the house. That is a very, very common thing.
- [28:01]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Okay, let's go ahead and move on now. We're essentially done, I think, talking about the scene until we get a little bit more information. So the town of Villisca learns all about this and of course it's devastating. By about 8:40 that morning, the officials tell everybody in town about this. Crowds are starting to form and just before 9 o' clock we've got some doctors who arrive as well as a reverend who is the Moore's Presbyterian minister. So all these people show up and you know, they're kind of surrounding the house. So just as a reminder, the woman who sounded the alarm on this to begin with, that was about an hour.
- [28:45]
Paul Holes
And 10 minutes before 7:30 is what you said.
- [28:48]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Yeah, I mean this is pretty wild because you've got 7:30, Mary Peckham says something's wrong. 8:15, Ross, the cousin or the relative arrives. 8:30, the marshal of Villisca shows up. Hank. And now it is 8:40 and the town knows. So that's pretty fast. I mean, it's good because I'm sure people needed to be alerted that there's a ax murderer out there somewhere. But this is probably not going to be great for the crime scene, I have to assume.
- [29:16]
Paul Holes
No, you know, hopefully they're kept outside of the crime scene. But then how? You know, there's a reason we use barrier tape, crime scene tape, you know, and we want to make the crime scene as big as possible because oftentimes we'll find evidence, you know, two, three houses away, you know, from shoe impressions or, you know, of course, with shootings, we could potentially have firearms ev evidence. And the last thing we want are crowds gathering where that evidence is at. And then in this day and age, you know, the one thing that can keep the press away is, is a crime scene barrier. Press cannot cross crime scene barriers. So if we want to prevent the cameras from, you know, capturing and broadcasting aspects of the crime, either for sensitivity to the victims or for details that somebody could use, you know, when they see it on tv, you know, that's what we do is we set up the crime scene tape. But in 1912 in Valeska.
- [30:12]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Yeah.
- [30:13]
Paul Holes
Chances are they've probably got a crowd milling about in the yard of this house and there could be critical evidence that is being trampled on.
- [30:20]
Kate Winkler Dawson
You're right. Why don't we look at some photos real quick before I forget. And I'm just going to kind of shoot them to you all at once. So look at the file I sent you.
- [30:28]
Paul Holes
So, yeah, so this first, first photograph, it's very artistic actually, is on the left side. It's black and white. On the left side is a long handled ax. The ax head is resting, I'm assuming, like, let's say on a tabletop. And then it's being held upright by a cord that is tied around the end of the handle and is probably secured at some point higher up. The axe head itself is. I mean, this is just a standard. I don't know the names of the different types of axes, but this is just a standard axe head. It has a blunt end. And then I would say that the sharp working edge is, you know, maybe, I'm guessing because there's no scale, but probably roughly 3 to 4 inches long. And then along the handle I can see dark staining, which I'm presuming is probably blood staining. I see, you know, a couple of spots that potentially could take, you know, look like, you know, bloody. The finger, the tip of the finger pads touching this. This axe handle does look like there may be some blood spatter closer to the ax head as well as large, you know, saturated area blood up towards the head. But the head is so dark, I can't make out any type of staining on it. It's not like a brand new ax. This axis has been used the, the working edge, the sharp edge looks like it's got gouges in it, you know, so this is, this is an axe that has, you know, somebody didn't just pick it up from a hardware store.
- [32:07]
Kate Winkler Dawson
And this is much longer than I would have thought. I mean, I used axes at my dad's house. This would be good for chopping wood. I'm used to, I guess, hatchets, but this seems unwieldy to me. And now I know how easily it was to hit the ceiling in a, you know, in a room that's only got seven foot high ceilings.
- [32:23]
Paul Holes
No, you know, and that's, that's just part of doing like a crime scene reconstruction is taking a look at the physical space. You know, somebody's swinging a baseball bat or swinging an ax of this length. You know, there's only so many ways that you can do it and be effective in terms of generating the energy. And so this, this offender is, at least for some of the blows, is swinging the ax probably directly overhead. Like if you were chopping wood and is striking the ceiling and putting the defects in the ceiling. And then next to the ax on this table, it looks like there's, you know, the lamp, you know, that was probably present, maybe illuminating Lena's lower body. Then the next photograph.
- [33:08]
Kate Winkler Dawson
So you're looking at the mirror that's covered. If you look on the right hand side.
- [33:12]
Paul Holes
Okay, so it appears that there's a set of drawers that has a mirror on top of it. And it looks like there's something akin to a drape or I don't know, like a trench jacket or something that a.
- [33:27]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Maybe a curtain maybe. I don't know.
- [33:29]
Paul Holes
Yeah, you know, but that, like I mentioned before, that is a very significant behavior. The offender is not wanting to see himself in the mirror, you know, and, and my, you know, off the top of my head, I'm thinking as he's walking around, maybe he's already committed the crime. And he's thinking, oh, you're a piece of. And you know, he doesn't want to have to just keep reminding himself of what a piece of he is.
- [33:53]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Man, you don't use the word lightly on this show. So you really must, you really must want to emphasize that. Yep.
- [34:01]
Paul Holes
Well, yeah, well, I mean he's killed, you know, eight, including six kids. This is, you know, so I mean you don't get worse than that.
- [34:09]
Kate Winkler Dawson
And then the houses, check out the house. It's two different angles.
- [34:12]
Paul Holes
Yeah. So these. Yeah. Two different vantage points of the house. It's a very simple, modest looking house. I'm looking. The first picture is from the front. It appears there's a front porch and the front door and then obviously there's a room to the right with a window but that part of the house is just single story. And then to the left, which I'm assuming is where like the guest bedroom and then the upstairs bedrooms are, is showing the two story house. The shades are drawn at least in the windows that I can see on the left side including the upstairs windows shades. Now did the offender do that or is that just, you know, when, when the, the moors go to bed they draw the shades? You know, so that would be part of the interview process to determine what the, the victimologies, the victim's habits are. And then the other, the other elevation photograph of the other elevation of the house is more from the front left of the house. And now you can see downstairs along the side of the, the left side of the house there's also two other windows. And it doesn't appear that there's the house through those windows.
- [35:24]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Now you see the markings because I thought this was interesting. If you can see that they're marking where these rooms are. So the main room, the main bedroom is upper left I think where you see the little one. And then number two is where the Lena and Ina were down below. And then it looks like number three is where the kind of interesting shaped windows are facing the street. Street. And that's where the kids are.
- [35:51]
Paul Holes
Sure. You know, and, and I, I would say, you know, in terms of the sequence, let's say the offender, because I, I think the moors, because of them being covered, I think the moors were the primary target at that. And the offender has some sort of connection to them and may have been completely oblivious to Ina and Lena being in that downstairs back bedroom. And it's not until, you know, he goes up and kills the Moore family and comes down and he's going through the house trying to, you know, set up, you know, the, the shades and, and the coverings of the mirrors and stuff. He discovers Ena and Lena still asleep, and now he kills them. And he sexually assaults Lena and then ends up eventually, you know, leaving the house. So there's instead of killing them because they're on the. The first floor, that he kills Ina and Lena first, running across them, wandering around the first floor, and then goes up and kills the Moors. That's one possibility. The other possibility, the reverse is also possible.
- [36:49]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Well, let's go through who shows up to this house and what their specialties are. We've got four doctors who are coming. We also have the Presbyterian minister I mentioned. And so everybody's there, and the doctors are searching around, and they find bloody long underwear under the bed of the guest room downstairs where Lena and Ena are. It had been used hastily to wipe the murder weapon and the killer's hands clean. I don't know how they would have known that, but, you know, that's what they say. There are still traces of blood and hair on the ax's handle. And next to the axe, they discover a hunk of bacon weighing 4 pounds and measuring 6 by 12 inches. It is wrapped in a flour sack or a cheesecloth. And I have more details about food in the kitchen.
- [37:41]
Paul Holes
Okay, now this long underwear, did they determine, was that foreign to the house or is that just something that the offender accessed from a closet or drawer?
- [37:49]
Kate Winkler Dawson
I think he grabbed it.
- [37:50]
Paul Holes
Okay, so he's just using that as a. As a cleanup towel?
- [37:54]
Kate Winkler Dawson
I believe so, yeah.
- [37:55]
Paul Holes
Which, you know, in this day and age, with modern forensics, that's huge. You know, we potentially could get his DNA just from him using that in that manner. Yeah. I'm not sure what to make about this, this hunk of bacon. So it sounds like that there's other disturbances to food in the kitchen. So let's hear about that.
- [38:12]
Kate Winkler Dawson
In the kitchen, the food is neatly laid out on the table. A bowl of bloody water suggests that the killer had washed himself before exiting the house. And in the ice box on the kitchen floor is another slab of bacon. So it sounded to me, I don't know if you agree with this or not, like, this was not their meal, the Moore's meal, because they were already in bed. And there's no way Mrs. Moore would have left out perfectly good food lying around, especially bacon. So he did it. Is that what you would think?
- [38:43]
Paul Holes
Yeah. You know, this. This also could explain why all the external windows to the house are. Are covered. Is he's spending time after he's killed the victims. And is, you know, the practical aspect is he's Hungry. And so now he's. He's eating their food. He's cleaning up. You know, there's one. We know there's one oil lamp on when the victims are discovered in the guest room, but he may have had another oil lamp on so he could see what he's doing in the kitchen, you know, in order to be able to eat. And he doesn't want, you know, people on the outside, neighbors to see in the middle of the night, there's a light on inside, you know, the Moore's house, because that would be suspicious, you know, so that's maybe why he's going through and covering up the external. It's still behaviorally, you know, there's a. I think there's a practical aspect that's now starting to come to light about why the. The windows, the shades are closed and the door. The windows to the door have been covered with the black skirt. That could be practical, you know, but then the covering of the mirrors, the covering of the Moore's heads, that's. That's a behavioral thing. That's. That's a. That's an act he's. He's doing. That is unnecessary for the commission of the crime or definitely for him lingering in the house in order to. To possibly just. Just. Just eat. I'd be interested to see how this. This food was neatly laid out on the table. Is there something odd about it, or is it just he's just kind of laying it out and eating and. And leaving it like that. Now, why is the bacon in the guest room by the axe? You know, does he grab this bacon like he's going to, you know, leave the house with it and decides against it? Yeah, who knows?
- [40:30]
Kate Winkler Dawson
We have speculation, and I think it is really interesting speculation. So you tell me what you think about these doctors from 1912 who are coming up with some stuff. This is not controversial. Rigor mortis, they think, based on that and the visual inspection of how the blood had coagulated, they're guessing that they were murdered around midnight, which is, you know, eight to nine hours ago. They went to sleep. And then, you know, the killer had as many hours as he wanted, essentially. So hundred people showed up, of course, because they made the announcement, be careful. There's an axe murderer out there. They take tours of the house while this investigation's going on. They pull down the window blinds, they break the chimney of one of the oil lamps that's in the house. They carry the ax from room to room. And someone actually stole a piece of Josiah's Skull which was about the size of a cigarette package. Who the hell secured this crime scene? I guess it is that an experienced marshal Flippin Hank. I mean this is awful.
- [41:33]
Paul Holes
This crime scene is so contaminated that it's possible that any evidence that could have been left by the offender to identify the offender, even with modern technology, could have been just completely lost. It's abhorrent in terms of how this crime scene is being treated. And it's abhorrent how these victims are being exposed to the public.
- [41:57]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Absolutely. By 10:30. So this is three hours after Mary Peckham makes the discovery. By 10:30am the crowd outside is so big that they call in the National Guard to secure the crime scene. I mean, now you know why this case has been talked about for more than 100 years. I mean this was traumatizing and titillating to everyone in this area when this happened. Eight people in one house, six little kids, a potential sexual assault. I mean all of this was pretty horrific. Luckily the doctors plow their way through all of this and we have the county coroner who's there and he says that there's a water basin on the back porch where it should be in the kitchen and it's got dirty water in it, not regular water. So there's the speculation that I think is interesting. They go to the barn and the coroner says there is a depression in some of the hay bales and he finds a 2 inch knot hole. So he's pretty sure that this guy hid behind Bayhales and you know, made a little hole for him to be able to watch, to see when families came home. And I'll tell you about their timeline also. But that's what he thinks happened. And then what I think is he washed his hands maybe before all of this happened and that's why there's dirty water outside.
- [43:18]
Paul Holes
Yeah, I think the, you know, the offender lying in wait, that adds up to me. You know this. He may have found a moment where he could sneak into this barn and it may have been much earlier in the day. And, and this is where he's, he's waiting for a long period of time and eventually he goes into the house, let's say it's around midnight or 2:00am whenever and, and kills the victims. You know, now he's, he's hungry. I saw this with Golden State Killer. You know, he, after he would sexually assault some of his victims, he would, would raid their refrigerator and grab food and Coors light and go out on the back, you know, the back porch and hang out there. And you know, there's a component of, for that type of predator, you know, this is power and control, exerting power, control over the victim's domain. But there's a practical aspect. If you're out prowling all night, you get hungry. And now once you've kind of gotten through the excitement of the type of crime you've wanted to commit, you are, you know, going, well, there's food here. I'm going to eat some of the food. Yeah, I think that's what's going on with this offender. He's lying in wait and potentially lied in wait for a long period of time. Goes in and kills the family and now he eats.
- [44:30]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Well, let's talk about their timeline because maybe that'll give you some clues on who might have done this, whether this was opportunity or he was stalking them actively or whatever. So you'll remember the day before was a Sunday. The Moors were very religious. Josiah ran a successful franchise of the John Deere plow company. John Deere was around back then. Sarah was really heavily involved in the Presbyterian Church where the minister came from. The day before. They spent the day attending an 11am service at the church. They were also getting ready for the church's annual Children's Day program. They were socializing with family. So 2pm to 4pm Sarah and the minister's wife and other women churchgoers led the rehearsal for this program I told you about with kids. They were celebrating the final day of Sunday school. 4:30 comes and the Moore family visited Josiah's parents. They go back to church at 7:30 that night. There's an 8 o' clock program with the singing that we were talking about. Over the course of the next hour, the children are doing skits and all kinds of stuff and reciting Bible passages. At the end of the evening, the parents and children have milk and cookies. Sounds like a really great day for the Moores. And earlier in the day they had allowed Catherine's friends Lena and Ena to spend the night. So, you know, they just said, can this happen? And they said, sure. The mother was seven months pregnant. So Lena and Ena's mother was seven months pregnant and she was going to go and stay, but she just wasn't going to be able to. She didn't feel like it. The girls were nervous to walk over a mile from the church to their grandmother's house in the dark. And that's why they decided to try to spend the night at the friend's house, which was closer. They were only three blocks Away from the church. So final part of this timeline, between 9:45pm and 10:00pm, everybody goes home. So the church is three blocks from the Moore's house. And the eight of these people walk, you know, over, including the two little girls who weren't meant to be there at all. And that's the timeline. Lots of church. So what do you think about that? It would be easy for a stranger to kind of target them.
- [46:46]
Paul Holes
I think what strikes me is that basically everybody is away from the house all of Sunday until they come home, roughly ten o' clock at night. Right.
- [46:57]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Their first thing, I think was an 11am church service. Three blocks away from the house.
- [47:01]
Paul Holes
Yeah. So, you know, this is where the offender lying in wait in the barn. I mean, he could have, you know, wandered onto this property. You know, he has to worry about, you know, other witnesses like Mary across the street, but he doesn't have to worry about anybody inside the housing him because nobody's home. So why, why does he wait in the barn versus, you know, going inside the house itself? So he's purposely making a decision. And then I think what's, you know, what's popping into my head right now is, okay, how's he getting into the house while the family's asleep? Did they routinely lock the door or did they just leave the door unlocked? Which. 1912 in this type of town, Chances are the door was unlocked. That's my guess.
- [47:48]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Oh, you know what? No, I just went back and looked. Ross Moore, the relative, got into the house using a key. Now, we don't know if the offender locked the doors after he left, but I mean, it sounds like they were trying all the doors, so I don't know.
- [48:04]
Paul Holes
Yeah, let's say all the doors are locked. When Ross is trying to get in, how does the offender lock the door behind him? You know, and that's dependent upon the locking mechanism. But if the offender, does he take a family member's key, like Josiah's key ring, and then now is able to, you know, lock the door on his way out? That's, that's a possibility. And, and so I'd be looking for, you know, any, any sets of missing keys that would indicate that the offender did that. One of the things, the offender is lying in wait in the barn versus inside the house. I think a, a possible reason for that is he doesn't want to confront the family while they're still awake. He wants to ensure that they are asleep. And this house is not a very big house, so he probably could very easily be discovered if he, you know, if he waited inside the house. So he is deciding, okay, I want to wait, and I need to wait long enough to ensure that this family is asleep. The family doesn't come, come home until 10 o' clock at night. And then I imagine with the young kids, you know, they're going to bed right away. The parents are probably going to bed, bed. And he waits long enough where he's assured that, you know, he's not going to be confronted by, let's say, Josiah, because Josiah is still awake. And so that I think is significant from a kind of like, well, who is this offender? He doesn't have the self confidence to confront this family while they're still, while they're awake. You know, he basically wants to ambush them while they're asleep. That's, I mean, that's very much a cowardly type of, of act, but it's also a very practical one, especially when you have six kids that you have to kind of, you know, manage in addition to the two adults as victims.
- [49:55]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Okay. The county attorney shows up by 8:30 that night. He brings a pair of bloodhounds. This is what the bloodhounds do. They sniff the axe handle. They pull investigators upstairs to the main bedroom. They go back down the stairs. They go across the front lawn, they go down the street. They stop in front of somebody's house. The guy's name is Frank Fernando Jones, and he is a wealthy man in town and he is involved in this case. He's known to the Moores, which, I mean, everybody probably is in this town. They go toward the Nottoway river, which is about a mile south of Villisca, and there is a mob of 2,000 people. These keep getting bigger and bigger. They have guns and clubs and axes, getting ready to beat the living shit out of whoever these dogs point to, say he's the one who did it. And at the river, they lose the scent. This is scary. I mean, this is like mob mentality for sure. Amazing.
- [50:51]
Paul Holes
Dogs are amazing. You know, of course, bloodhounds are amazing in terms of, you know, what they're able to smell and, and how they can track. You know, this is such a contaminated crime scene. You're now losing, you know, of course the offender has touched the axe handle. And this is a. I mean, I've, I've had this in a case with a baseball, b know, bludgeoning with a baseball bat and, and the dogs, you know, sent it off of, you know, the baseball. You know, basically a swath of, of cloth that had gone across The. The handle of this bat, and then they start, you know, doing their scent trail. And this. This was a pristine crime scene, but it.
- [51:33]
Kate Winkler Dawson
It.
- [51:33]
Paul Holes
It's kind of hard to say, are they. Are they truly on the. The offender's track itself? And that's my concern here, especially with such a contaminated crime. Crime scene.
- [51:45]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Well, speaking of contaminated crime scenes, I think the FBI is pretty pissed off when they show up with a fingerprint expert and the guy says, what am I supposed to do? There have been hundreds of people who have, you know, gone. Gone through this house. Technically, it was the Bureau of investigation in 1912. But the Special agent is irritated. He came from Leavenworth, Kansas. Yeah. I mean, there's very little he's going to be able to do at that point. And that's just what's heartbreaking about a lot of the cases that you and I talk about and is not knowing any better. And this probably still happens with people who are inexperienced. I'm not even gonna say in small towns, just in general. But to ruin a crime scene by allowing people to come in and take mementos is just horrific.
- [52:28]
Paul Holes
So, yeah, it's how you don't do it.
- [52:31]
Kate Winkler Dawson
So this is the thing about this case. It, like other serial killer cases, creates hysteria over a serial killer that, of course, we haven't named a serial killer for 60 years. That's not the phrase that they use. I guess they would say multiple murderer is what I've always used for the 1800s. So there is terror. Villisca becomes a sundown town. Do you remember that phrase? I just talked to you about it, I think, a month or two ago. Sundown town.
- [52:57]
Paul Holes
Oh, you're putting me on the spot. I do listen to you, Kate. I really do.
- [53:01]
Kate Winkler Dawson
But, no, it's not a town that enjoys sunsets. That's it. Okay, so a sundown town is where people with a criminal history, basically any ne' er do well known in that time, including people of color, needed to be very concerned about being caught after dark in a town like this. And that's what happens.
- [53:22]
Paul Holes
Okay.
- [53:23]
Kate Winkler Dawson
There is a string of brutal slayings in other places over the last nine months. So 16 other people have been similarly murdered in Colorado, Illinois, and Kansas. So people think that there is a serial killer out there called Billy the Axeman. I don't know where that came from. Or the Midwest Axeman. I can go through these murders. I just. And to me, I mean, axe murderers were not that unusual even in the early 1900s, but, you know, they have. They list them off I can tell you about them. What do you think? Colorado, Colorado Springs?
- [54:01]
Paul Holes
Paul? No. Really?
- [54:02]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Yeah.
- [54:03]
Paul Holes
Right now? Sure. You know, you have other far reaching jurisdictions that have similar type crimes, but it has to be more than just the use of an ax. It has to be more than just somebody breaking into a family's house and killing people or even multiple people, because this was something that was more common back in the day. It's the signatures, the unusual things that the offender did inside the Moore's house that I would want to see. Is there any other similar unusual things happening in Colorado Springs in Illinois? You know, such as the, the covering of the mirrors, which is the most significant, or the covering of the victim's heads? You know, do they share that type of behavior? Then I would go, okay, I'm, I'm interested to see are they related or not.
- [54:52]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Okay. I'm going to tell you about the four. The first one though is in Colorado Springs. It's a couple in their 3 year old who was murdered. And same night next door neighbor and two kids were also murdered with an ax. These are all ax murders.
- [55:06]
Paul Holes
And when did this happen?
- [55:07]
Kate Winkler Dawson
September 20th, 1911. So this is about nine months before.
- [55:12]
Paul Holes
Okay.
- [55:13]
Kate Winkler Dawson
The next one is October 1st. So about 11, 12 days later in Monmouth, Illinois, there's a couple and their 13 year old daughter who are killed. The girl's nightgown was torn, one of her arms was stretched overhead, kind of like Lena. And the girl's legs were pushed up to expose her body just like Lena. Third set comes October 16th. So that is about two weeks later. This is in Ellsworth, Kansas. We're getting closer to where we're going to, you know, Villisca. A couple and their three children were murdered. The kids were 6, 4 and 1. The mother was sexually assaulted with two. Man, this should be a whole warning just for this, she was sexually assaulted. Two toy pistols were forced into her rectum. A lamp was left at the foot of the bed with its chimney found under a chair. It doesn't say whether the lamp was on or not, but you'll remember that's kind of the way it was set up for Lena also, like putting her on display. And then the murderer crudely cleaned that ax. Okay, last one. No kids in the home. This is 140 miles south of Villisca, the closest one. This is the same year as the murders in Paola, Kansas. It's a couple who was bludgeoned to death with a coal pick or a mason's hammer. And as I said, no kids in the house. In all these murders, every one of them, the faces of the victims had been covered by sheets. The blinds were drawn or blacked out with garments. And in three of the murders, the killer washed himself at the scene of the crime. At least five of the murders he had lingered. They never found fingerprints. Now, I know what you're gonna ask. I don't see anything about the mirrors, but blinds were drawn in these. What do you think in all of those?
- [57:14]
Paul Holes
No, I have to admit, you know, those sound interesting enough to where I have to consider the possibility that could be the same offender that killed the Moors and Ina and Lena. If that's the case, you know, obviously he's mobile, he's moving from state to state to state and he's, you know, committing this type of crime. You know, I think it's compelling with, you know, the, the one, the one case that was, was in illinois with the 13 year old girl. And then the one, the one that was in an Ellsworth, you know, where you have the two pistols that have been shoved into an orifice, you know, that is a. I do see predators doing that. You know, that is something that they experiment with. So, yeah, I would say, you know, with even as little details as you provided on those cases, I'd be highly interested in taking a closer look to see is there even more overlap than just what you provided.
- [58:14]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Well, let me play devil's advocate and you tell me what you think, because I was thinking about this, the connective tissue part of it. So in all of these murders, the victims faces were covered by sheets. Is that unusual? Even if they don't know the person, is it unusual to find a victim that has a covered face case?
- [58:34]
Paul Holes
You know, I can go back to multiple cases, including the Golden State Killer, where d' Angelo covered multiple victims with the bedding, you know, after he bludgeoned them, you know, and there is a practical aspect, as I mentioned earlier in this episode, about the, the spatter guard aspect. And so that's part of what I would be assessing, but it's also an offender who doesn't want to be looking at what he did. Now typically when we see victims covered, that's kind of going back to okay in the offender's mind, there's some sort of attachment to those victims, but it's not hard and fast. And you know, the fact that in these cases with, you know, axe, an ax being used or bludgeoning weapon being used, and you're seeing whole families being killed, just like in the Moore case, the Valeska case, You know, there is some aspect to it, to where you have a psychology, a similar psychology between the offender that committed these other state crimes and the one that killed the Moores and Ina and Lena. So that's, you know, for me, I'm now fascinated with looking at this as a series versus, I would use the term a mass murder. With the Moore case, the Valeska case being a standalone case with eight people being killed all at once. I would say that's a mass murder and not a serial killer.
- [59:52]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Well, the sheriff of Colorado Springs agrees with you. You, they pulled this together very quickly. So this is, they're discovered on. I don't even remember what day it is. June 10th. So this happened, let's say, you know, 11:59pm June 9th, by June 12th, they are trying to pull together some kind of a. This is almost like a task force that they're pulling together. So the sheriff from Colorado Springs meets with sheriffs from Illinois and from, I think it's Kansas also. And they have a discussion and they're trying to decide who they think this guy is. The guy from Colorado Springs, that sheriff says he thinks it's a religious fanatic and it's one person that is just ripping through the Midwest sexually assaulting and killing people. The sheriff from Illinois does not agree. He says, we think these are separate people. And he convinces the other sheriffs that these need to be investigated separately, not as a serial killer series of murders. What do you think about that?
- [60:54]
Paul Holes
You know, when you do have, let's say, similar crimes and you're trying to determine are they related or not without, you know, that objective DNA or fingerprint evidence or something that is really, really unusual that you can, can say, hey, for sure these are related. This is where it's, it's nebulous. And you're, you're making an educated guess based on your own experience and expertise as to are the cases more likely to be related or not. The mistake that agencies often make is they choose one path and not the other as the way that they conduct their investigation. And so for these cases, I would say you have to consider that they're related and you need to dedicate investigative resources to march down that road. But then you also have to consider can, you know, pursue each case individually doing traditional standalone case type of investigations. So you have to keep both things going until one, until clarifies, oh, they're all related or oh, no, they're not. It's interesting that the Colorado Spring sheriff, which today it's El Paso county sheriff and you have Colorado Springs pd so it sounds like like El Paso county sheriff controlled all of Colorado Springs. He's saying the the offender is a religious fanatic. And so while we know about the Moors being highly religious, the victimology in these other cases would also now be need to be studied to indicate were they also very religious, had they all also attended, let's say, church the day of that they're killed. Is this guy a semi transient relig religious individual that in, you know, kind of just shows up at these various, you know, let's say religious spots and then chooses a family that he's going to go and then kill for whatever reason? Right. We know Alina. You know, in that case there's a sexual component to his crime.
- [63:01]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Well, they go through suspects and eliminate everyone they had. Josiah and Mary, estranged brother in laws, were dismissed. There was a weird Bulgarian salesman. I don't know where this comes from. He was dismissed. There was an escaped patient. He was found beforehand. It sounds like all this happened. And there was a construction worker who liked to sleep with an ax. Never did anything else with it though. He was dismissed. He was 40 miles away. Confirmed alibi. So they are at a dead end and the investigation comes to a crawl until they manage to gather three main suspects. We are going to have to talk in the next episode about these trio of very eccentric, I think suspects. One is a convicted killer, one is a wealthy businessman and one is a minister. Okay, so we're going to go over them next week.
- [63:55]
Paul Holes
Well, you're going to leave me hanging, but I will wait patiently.
- [64:00]
Kate Winkler Dawson
All right, I'll see you in a week.
- [64:01]
Paul Holes
All right, Kate, take care.
- [64:02]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Bye. This has been an exactly right production.
- [64:09]
Paul Holes
For our sources and show notes go to exactlyrightmedia.com buriedbones sources.
- [64:15]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Our senior producer is Alexis Amorosi, research.
- [64:18]
Paul Holes
By Alison Trouble and Kate Winkler Dawson.
- [64:21]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.
- [64:24]
Paul Holes
Our theme song is by Tom Breivogel.
- [64:26]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac, executive.
- [64:29]
Paul Holes
Produced by Karen Kilgariff, Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer.
- [64:33]
Kate Winkler Dawson
You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at buriedbonespod.
- [64:38]
Paul Holes
Kate's most recent book, all that is a Gilded Age story of murder and the Race to Decode the Criminal Mind is available now.
- [64:45]
Kate Winkler Dawson
And Paul's best selling memoir, My Life Solving America's Cold Cases is also available.
- [64:51]
Paul Holes
Now listen to Barry Bones on the I Heart Race radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcast.