Buried Bones: Blood on the Cobblestones PT 2
Podcast: Buried Bones
Hosts: Kate Winkler Dawson & Paul Holes
Episode Release: September 17, 2025
Podcast Network: Exactly Right / iHeartPodcasts
Overview
In this riveting conclusion to the Boston Strangler case, journalist Kate Winkler Dawson and retired cold case investigator Paul Holes re-examine the infamous string of murders from the early 1960s. Through detailed case breakdowns and modern forensic insight, Kate and Paul challenge long-held beliefs, explore victimology, discuss advances in DNA technology, and debate whether Albert DeSalvo was truly responsible for all the crimes attributed to the Strangler. The episode highlights the difficulties of historical true crime investigations and the evolving nature of forensic science.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Patterns in Victimology and Serial Behavior
- Victim Demographics:
- Initial victims: Five older white women (ages 56-75), with a later shift to younger women including 19-year-old Sophie (Black) and 23-year-old Patricia (white).
- Later victims also include a range of ages and social settings.
- Misconceptions about Serial Offenders:
- Serial killers don't always stick to a single victim 'type' regarding age or race.
- Paul: "You sometimes can see a pattern. Sometimes there's no pattern... It's important to dispel myths" [04:03].
- Switch in Victim Profile:
- A possible 'evolution' of the killer or opportunistic selection is discussed.
- Paul: "Is he evolving ... and has now got the confidence to commit crimes ... in the age range of what his sexual preference is?... Or was Sophie just an opportunity?" [06:25].
2. Growing Violence and Variations in Modus Operandi
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Notable Cases:
- Mary Brown (Victim #8, March 1963):
- Particularly violent; beaten, stabbed with a two-pronged meat fork, strangled, sexually assaulted.
- Paul: "This level of violence suggests to me there is something going on in the offender's life that has made him angry... an anger retaliatory type of offender" [12:29].
- Beverly Sammons (Victim #9, May 1963):
- 26-year-old opera singer; multiple scarves and nylon stocking looped around her neck, stabbed 17 times.
- Question about whether developed throat muscles made strangulation harder—debunked by Paul [20:45].
- Mary Sullivan (Final victim, Jan 1964):
- 19 years old; sexually assaulted with a broom handle; multiple nylon items used for ligature strangulation; a "Happy New Year" card deliberately placed by her foot [29:15-30:53].
- Mary Brown (Victim #8, March 1963):
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Signature Behaviors:
- Overkill, ritualistic placement of ligatures, escalation in violence at certain points.
- Compulsive use of ligatures as part of the fantasy, not always necessary for the killing itself.
- Paul: "Anytime the offender does something that is unnecessary, you have to pay attention to it. Again, he's got a compulsion about ligature strangulation. This is core to the fantasy..." [30:20].
3. Geography and Scene Analysis
- Shifts Between Boston Proper and Outlying Areas:
- Killings occurred in Boston, Back Bay, Lynn, Lawrence, Cambridge, Salem—distances not seen as atypical for residents’ daily patterns.
- Paul's take: Offender likely had reason to frequent these areas, possibly for work or personal connections [09:05].
- Preference for Apartment Settings:
- Most victims lived in apartments rather than single-family homes—a potentially riskier choice for a serial offender.
- Discussion: Perhaps the killer was comfortable in these settings due to his occupation or personal lifestyle [25:31].
4. Forensics & DNA Technology: Closing the Cold Case
- DNA Breakthroughs:
- 2001: Mitochondrial DNA comparison (from DeSalvo’s brother) with semen from Mary Sullivan was negative [47:33-48:42].
- 2013: Exhumed DeSalvo, used DNA from femur and teeth, got a definitive match to semen found on Mary Sullivan [48:42-49:28].
- Forensics Commentary: Use of mitochondrial vs. nuclear DNA, challenges with degraded/old evidence.
- Remaining Questions:
- No suitable DNA found/preserved from earlier victims’ cases, leaving open whether DeSalvo was responsible for all murders [51:15-52:00].
- Paul: "They need to do whatever they can to track down potential DNA evidence from any of these other cases..." [52:51].
- Legal and Procedural Barriers:
- Expenditure and prioritization of police resources in posthumous cases [54:53].
5. Albert DeSalvo's Confession, the 'Measuring Man' & 'Green Man' Crimes
- Background:
- DeSalvo confessed to his cellmate and became the primary suspect, but he was only convicted of the 'Green Man' sexual assaults, not the murders.
- His background included a history of abuse, petty crime, and sexual offenses.
- Discrepancies in Offender Profile:
- 'Measuring Man' and 'Green Man' cases involved sexual assault without murder—vastly different from the Boston Strangler's violent killings.
- Paul: "The Boston Strangler is very, very different than the Measuring Man... I think you have two different offenders" [40:25].
- Skepticism from Authorities:
- Police and psychiatric professionals doubted DeSalvo’s confession, noting his personality and inconsistencies in details [42:09].
- Lingering Doubts & Alternative Theories:
- Some suggest multiple offenders responsible, or that DeSalvo might have had details fed to him by his cellmate Nassar, who some have theorized as the real killer [55:50].
- Final Word:
- Paul: DNA evidence ties DeSalvo definitively to Mary Sullivan’s murder but does not conclusively prove responsibility for all the Strangler's victims [54:05, 52:51].
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
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On stereotypes about serial killers:
"You sometimes can see a pattern. Sometimes there's no pattern. But I think you especially always dispel myths by the end of it..." - Kate [03:45] -
On the possible escalation in violence:
"This level of violence on Mary suggests to me there is something going on in the offender's life that has made him angry... at this point, I would ... call an anger retaliatory type of offender." - Paul [12:29] -
On ritual actions at the crime scene:
"Anytime the offender does something that is unnecessary, you have to pay attention to it. Again, he's got a compulsion about ligature strangulation. This is core to the fantasy..." - Paul [30:20] -
On skepticism over DeSalvo's confessions:
"He wants to be important. He likes to brag... but he gets things wrong that the press had also gotten wrong." - Kate [42:09] -
On DNA closing at least one door in the case:
"Now you have semen from Albert DeSalvo off of Mary's body, proven by DNA. So this now suggests... DeSalvo's the Boston Strangler... unless there's other DNA that differentiates it." - Paul [49:28] -
On the tragedy and frustration of unsolved serial crimes:
"You have innocent people whose lives were taken away in brutal fashion and for what reason? It's for the self-gratification of the offender and it's a very selfish type of crime." - Paul [62:19]
Important Timestamps
- 03:17 - Kate and Paul summarize the scope and victimology, discussing serial killer myths
- 06:25 - Paul discusses possible changes in victim selection
- 12:29 - Discussion on the escalation of violence with Mary Brown's murder
- 20:45 - Paul debunks claims about strangulation difficulty in the opera singer victim
- 25:31 - Discussion about the perpetrator’s preference for apartments
- 29:15 - Final victim, Mary Sullivan, and the “Happy New Year” card clue
- 33:25 - Forensic evidence and the potential for modern DNA to solve old murders
- 40:25 - Comparison of Boston Strangler, Measuring Man, and Green Man series
- 47:33 - The DNA journey: Mitochondrial (2001) to nuclear DNA (2013)
- 54:05 - Paul on mixed DNA, the legal process, and law enforcement's priorities
- 62:19 - Reflections on the tragedy and unresolved aspects of the case
Conclusion & Reflection
Throughout the episode, Kate and Paul weave together historical evidence and contemporary forensic expertise to re-examine the Boston Strangler case and the confession of Albert DeSalvo. The episode emphasizes the importance of scientific evidence, especially DNA, in overturning or affirming historic assumptions. Despite modern developments, some mysteries remain—particularly concerning the full scope of DeSalvo’s crimes and the possibility of additional perpetrators. The hosts close by expressing a shared sense of sadness for the victims and the families who may never get all their answers, reinforcing the emotional weight underpinning cold case investigations.