Dead Weight PT 1

Summary

Buried Bones – "Dead Weight PT 1"

Date: November 5, 2025
Hosts: Kate Winkler Dawson & Paul Holes

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Overview

In this gripping episode of Buried Bones, journalist Kate Winkler Dawson and retired cold case investigator Paul Holes delve into one of the most gruesome and mysterious true crime cases from the early 20th century: the infamous “Trunk Murders” of 1931. Using their trademark blend of historical research and modern forensic insight, Kate and Paul reconstruct a story that involves mysterious steamer trunks, decomposing bodies, baffling clues, and the chilling emergence of a suspect known as "The Trunk Murderess." As always, the hosts challenge each other—and their audience—to think critically about evidence, forensics, and the perils of speculation, with Part 1 ending on a tantalizing cliffhanger.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Modern Forensics in the Spotlight: Online Speculation and Media Responsibility

• Kate opens by discussing media coverage of a recent real-life case (the Idaho murders), praising Paul’s discretion as a consultant and warning of the dangers of unfounded online speculation.
  • Paul: “There is so much speculation... I will only comment when there's official information that is put out by law enforcement, the courts, etcetera... you gotta be careful” (05:28)
• Journalistic standards in fact-checking and the importance of consulting experts before reporting technical or forensic claims.
  • Kate: “You need to go back... call the people who you're interviewing and say, Paul, listen, can I go over some of the stuff that you said and make sure that I framed it correctly?” (08:12)

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2. Setting the Scene: The 1931 Train Trunk Murders

• The main case opens as a mundane train delivery gone awry:

  • Date: October 19, 1931
  • Location: Golden State Limited train from Phoenix to Los Angeles
  • Two large, black steamer trunks emit a foul odor and ooze a dark substance upon arrival at LA’s Central Station (14:21–15:35)

• Initial assumptions by staff include smuggled contraband meat (specifically, venison).

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3. Discovery of the Trunks' Grisly Contents

• A young man (Burton McKinnell, a USC student) and a woman arrive to claim the trunks but fail to provide keys and leave, never to return.
• After hours of waiting and escalating concern over the smell and leaking fluids, the police are called.
• Upon opening the trunks, police discover:
  • Large trunk:
    • A piece of a rug, bloodstained women’s clothing, quilt, and the severely decomposed body of a dark-haired woman in pink pajamas, curled in the fetal position. (22:36)
  • Smaller trunk:
    • Bloody papers, a cotton sheet, and the upper half (head to navel) of another woman’s body, plus bundles containing a foot and a leg—the rest missing.
    • Remarked absence of bloating in the dismembered body leads Paul to explain decomposition science:
      • Paul: “The dismemberment is really the reason they're not seeing the bloating” (27:07)

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4. Physical and Forensic Evidence in the Luggage

• Other discoveries include:
  • A serrated bread knife
  • Women’s purses containing spent .25 caliber cartridges, a bullet, and a picture frame with bloody hair stuck to it
  • Additional trunks found in the women's bathroom area: a tan suitcase (with the lower female torso, waist to knees, wrapped in pajamas and blankets) and a hat box (containing a surgeon’s bag, surgical instruments, a .25 caliber Colt pistol, cosmetic items, and ammunition) (33:57–36:40)
  • Paul suggests the inclusion of “evidence boxes” like the hatbox points to a hurried and not particularly organized perpetrator.

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5. Autopsy Findings and Dismemberment Analysis

• Victim 1 (Anne Leroy, age 32):

  • Cause of death: single contact gunshot wound to left temple (powder burns, downward and backward trajectory); no other marks.
    • Paul: “This is what we see in executions where the gun... is pressed hard up against the victim’s head and the shot is fired” (48:07)

• Victim 2 (Hedvig "Sammy" Samuelson, age 24):

  • Multiple gunshot wounds: one to left chest (lodged in arm), one through right ring finger (indicative of a defensive posture), and another to left temple, close range (fatal wound).
  • Dismemberment was performed within hours of death; certain body parts (intestines, bladder) missing.
    • Paul: “The fact that they are saying intestines are gone, the bladder is gone... The primary organ [in bisection]...they have a tendency to kind of be messy. This is going in a garbage bag and I’m going to dump it somewhere else” (39:05)

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6. Crime Scene at the Phoenix “Murder Cottage”

• Setting: Anne & Sammy’s shared duplex in Phoenix, where both had moved from Alaska and lived peacefully.
  • Evidence found:
    • Blood splatter near Anne’s bed, on floor and baseboards; Sammy’s bed and area are clean.
    • Both mattresses missing, deep drag marks in hallway.
    • A hacked piece of rug (matching one wrapped around victim), bloody thumbprint, ginger ale and whiskey bottles, and burned mop remains found.
  • Landlord sells tours of the crime scene the following day.
  • Paul: “The fact that two mattresses are gone…suggests to me that each victim was killed in their own bed...And then how does the offender get those mattresses out?” (64:13)

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7. Building the Suspect List and Psychological Profile

• The narrative builds toward the identification of the suspects who tried to claim the trunks:

  • Burton’s companion is identified as his sister, Winnie Ruth McKinley (“The Trunk Murderess”).

  • The case is left at a cliffhanger, to be resolved in Part 2.

  • Kate: “She will be tracked down and her explanation for all of this is something you’ll find interesting.” (70:19)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Paul Holes on media and forensic speculation:
  “Because they don't understand maybe the underpinnings of the science, they write things in their articles or they say things during the news broadcast, which is factually wrong...You gotta be careful.” (05:28)
• Kate on journalistic rigor:
  “You need to go back...call the people who you’re interviewing and say, Paul, listen, can I go over some of the stuff that you said and make sure that I framed it correctly?” (08:12)
• Paul Holes on state of the bodies:
  “Blood can assume a whole spectrum of colors from the very bright red to black and anything in between...if you get mold growing...you can have different appearances that the blood stain can assume.” (21:23)
• Autopsy detail:
  “The dismemberment is really the reason they're not seeing the bloating...when you bisect a body...the primary organ...is the intestines...they have a tendency to kind of be messy...This may be just a practical reason...” (27:07, 39:05)
• Kate on the immediate aftermath and the media circus:
  “This whole crime scene reporters are milling around...The next day, the landlord begins selling tours of the apartment for 10 cents ahead.” (63:27)
• Paul, on the possible motive for dismemberment:
  "For most offenders that resort to dismemberment, they are in a mode of self-preservation and they're trying to get rid of this body." (40:45)
• Paul, as the case cliffhanger arrives:
  “You have a woman and a college age kid coming to claim the steamer trunks. I mean, there’s a clue.” (58:27)
• Kate, teasing Part 2:
  "She will be tracked down and her explanation for all of this is something I think you’ll find very interesting." (70:19)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• Modern forensic science vs. speculation: 03:13–09:09
• The trunks arrive in LA and initial discovery: 14:21–20:08
• Police open the trunks; bodies revealed and discussed: 20:32–27:47
• Inventory of trunk and suitcase evidence: 31:12–36:40
• Hat box examined, links to suspect's skills considered: 36:40–38:45
• Autopsy findings & forensics: 47:13–54:07
• Discussion of dismemberment psychology and suspect profiling: 58:16–60:51
• Investigation at the murder scene (“Murder Cottage”): 60:51–66:38
• Suspect identities unveiled and cliffhanger: 69:33–70:41

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Episode Tone & Style

Kate and Paul’s discussion is equal parts clinical, historical, and conversational, with Paul providing straightforward, unvarnished forensic explanations and Kate balancing with narrative storytelling and curiosity. Their rapport generates moments of humor despite the bleak material (“Please don’t be eating while we have this discussion.” – Kate, 26:34), and both are quick to question assumptions and draw modern connections to law enforcement, journalism, and the true crime community.

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Summary for Newcomers

For listeners new to the story—or the podcast—this episode is a textbook Buried Bones investigation: a tour through a little-known but shocking historical crime, explored with sensitivity, methodological rigor, fascination for forensics, and just enough grisly detail. The “Trunk Murders” serve both as a captivating whodunit and a vehicle for reflecting on the limits of period police work and the timeless nature of human depravity. The case is left unresolved at the end of this installment; tune in to Part 2 for the dramatic resolution and more insight into the mind(s) behind one of true crime’s most infamous mysteries.

Transcript

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[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who spent the last 25 years writing about true crime.

[Paul Holes]

And I'm Paul Holes, a retired cold case investigator who's worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Each week I present Paul with one of history's most compelling true crimes and.

[Paul Holes]

I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring new insights to old mysteries.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime cases through a 21st century lens.

[Paul Holes]

Some are solved and some are cold. Very cold.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

This is Buried Bones.

[Paul Holes]

Hey Kate, how are you today?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I'm great, Paul. How about you?

[Paul Holes]

I am hanging in there. What's been going on?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Well, I saw this little newspaper article that said that the company you worked for had been able to uncover the DNA found on the ninth Sheaf in the Idaho murders And you were very good at keeping secrets because I would have. I would have. I can't believe I didn't get that out of you. It didn't even occur to me. What can you tell us? I know some of this is still top secret.

[Paul Holes]

Right. You know, I'm very limited in terms of what I can say about that case and Othram's involvement. I will just say that Othram was involved. Idaho State Police crime lab did the initial processing and then of course, once they got a DNA a sample from the nice sheath, a part of that sample went to Othram who was able to develop the genealogy compatible SNP profile and started the genealogy process as generic.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

And non top secret way as possible. Can you explain how much do you need? Is this a misperception from people?

[Paul Holes]

Well, obviously there was enough to test.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Okay.

[Paul Holes]

Because with the law enforcement laboratory, you know, they generated a profile that went up into codis and then Othram was able to generate a profile. So there was enough to at least sample that DNA extract twice. Now I can't say how much they actually got out of that sample, but modern DNA technology is extraordinarily sensitive. So we are talking on the order of like 100 picograms. This is where I don't want to say single cell sensitive, but in essence we are at a level to where you have DNA from a few cells that under the right conditions you can generate a profile and be able to forensically go after the databases, whether it be on the law enforcement side with CODIS or on the genealogy side with like GEDmatch and family tree DNA.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

And this is where I think it gets a little tricky with all the online speculation about cases like these is. You know, I had been reading people saying you can't get enough on here. There's not. That's the only thing is indicating that Kohlberger is involved. And then of course we saw what happened where he pleads guilty and admits to all of it. So I feel like making assumptions where you are not properly trained and then spewing it out everywhere can be a little bit dangerous. I know it's probably exciting and fun, but still it really to me felt like this was too much speculation around that particular part of science.

[Paul Holes]

Correct. You know, and this is where like I get pulled in by various, if you want to call them online, but even news type organizations to be the talking head. And I in essence have said I will only comment when there's official information that is put out by law enforcement, the courts, Et cetera. So for the Kohlberger case, the only time I commented publicly about that case was when the affidavit for arrest was issued. And I only commented about the facts that the investigator wrote in the affidavit that went to a magistrate in order to get the, the PC the arrest warrant. There is so much speculation when it comes to looking at cases through whatever medium you're, you're consuming. I will tell you just cases during the course of my career which were covered by news organizations, you know, where you, you actually have reporters or journalists that are trying to convey the facts, but because they don't understand maybe the underpinnings of the science, they write things in their articles or they say things during the news broadcast, which is factually wrong from somebody who's got the forensics background. And you're going, nope, that's not exactly what that is conveying. I even way back during the O.J. simpson case, I was interviewed by a Bay Area news reporter and I saw them take an answer that I gave to one question and they splic in a different question and used my answer and it was factually wrong. And I was thinking, you're making me look like an idiot. And I don't know if that was a mistake. They thought, oh, that answer is better with this question, or they were just trying to make something more sensational, you know, which would be absolutely negligent. You want to report the facts. So that, that is where, you know, I've got a tremendous history with, you know, the online communities related to looking these cases, you know, whether it be Zodiac or Golden State Killer. And there are some amazingly bright individuals that are well intentioned in this online sleuthing community. But oftentimes the discussions that occur and some of the conclusions, opinions that the online people form just don't correlate with the facts that are in the case file. And they don't have access to the complete case files. They're just relying upon, well, what was reported in the media, whether it be a TV show or a newspaper article, et cetera. And again, it's just where, oh, you gotta be, you gotta be careful.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah, absolutely. And from the journalist's perspective, you know, we train our students at the University of Texas. You need to go back and you don't do just your own fact checking. You should always call the people who you're interviewing and say, Paul, listen, can I go over some of the stuff that you said and make sure that I framed it correctly? And I think a lot of people don't do that. And that's really what you should do. I remember submitting something for the New York Times. I was writing an article about something and it was unreal the amount of fact checking that they did and called me back and said, where did you get this source? And I was thinking that's the vigor. You know, I know it always isn't like that at every place, but that's what you should be looking for, especially something like this. So anyway, my whole point of this is that I was surprised when I saw it because you were so tight lipped. So now I think the audience knows. If you have a secret, a juicy secret, you can trust Paul Holes with that secret.

[Paul Holes]

Well, but that's, that's also part. If you, if you take a look at where I'm at, you know, even though I'm in this true crime genre, I am still consulting with law enforcement. And if I, if I burn law enforcement and let's say divulge something publicly that they do not want to have divulge, I'm shooting myself in the foot with my credibility moving forward as I want to continue working unsolved cases with law enforcement. So yes, I have, you know, I consult on a lot of cases. There's a lot of information on cases, some high profile, some not that I can't discuss. You know, those are facts and I may never be able to discuss them even after the case is solved just because of some of the aspects related to the circumstances of the case.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Well, now I know and I promise to divulge everything about this case coming up because it's a big, big case. I've actually, I normally will say this is a listener suggestion. This is multiple listener suggestion. I've heard about this. It's not Black Dahlia. I've heard about this case for a very long time and I had never really gotten into it. So I think that you'll find this one to be really interesting. So let's go ahead and set the scene. Okay. We are back on a train. We've had a couple of train stories now which I love. I love Agatha Christie loved putting people on trains and cruise ships and trapping them in different areas. It's a mystery. So anytime I see we have a train story, I get excited. Excited. So we, we're. And we've talked about. You haven't had a ton of train experience. I know we talked about the Pikes Peak, I think is the, one of the train things trams that you had.

[Paul Holes]

Been on maybe the, the cog railway which if you come to Colorado Springs. I highly suggest you you do that. Preferably in the summertime. Because when you get up to 14, 000ft, even in the summertime, it's freezing. And if it's in the wintertime, you know, it. It's miserable when you step outside, but it's an amazing experience to ride up Pikes Peak and go through the forest and then get above the tree line once you get to a certain altitude. So that's in terms of riding the train. That's one. And then of course, the Napa wine train I've been on several times.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Several times.

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[Ed Helms/Kal Penn]

Hey everyone.

[Paul Holes]

Ed Helms here and hi, I'm Kal Penn, and we're the hosts of Irsay, the Audible and I Heart Audiobook Club.

[Ed Helms/Kal Penn]

This week on the podcast, I am sitting down with Jenny Garth, host of the iHeart podcast. I choose me to discuss the new Audible adaptation of the timeless Jane Austen classic Pride. And this is not a trick question. There's no wrong answer. What role would I play?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

You know what?

[Narrator/Host]

I can see you as Mr. Darcy.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

You got a little Colin Firth.

[Ed Helms/Kal Penn]

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[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Anywho, we're back on a train. This is LA and it is 1931. So it's 7:45 in the morning and this is a train called the Golden State Limited which pulls into Los Angeles Central Station. And it came from Phoenix where I had departed at 8 o' clock the night before. I've always dreamed of being on an overnight train. I thought that sounded very romantic. I'm not sure this is the romantic train. I would be thinking this sounds like, you know, just sort of a typical train where you're falling asleep sitting straight up. But I don't know. But this is not a luxury train, it's my understanding. So it's coming from Phoenix. There were two large black steamer trunks that were loaded onto the train when in Phoenix the night before. And nobody really knew who left the trunks. They just knew. The porters just knew they had to load the trunks onto the train and they will become a central point here for us. So the train rolls in in the morning and the porters start walk where the carriage is that's carrying all of these pieces of luggage. There are the trunks and they smell.

[Paul Holes]

It's not a good sign.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah, it's not a good sign for the owner or for, you know, the people trying to unload it. Okay, so I mean, I know you know where this is heading, but I'll be dramatic and we'll talk about it in more detail. There's a large trunk and a smaller trunk. The larger trunk has been oozing and both trunks are emitting a foul putrid odor. And the night baggage man thinks that a passenger has tried to cross state lines from Arizona into California with contraband deer meat. And, you know, venison smuggling was a big deal. You weren't allowed to do that. And so they're assuming, I mean, we know for our show this is not deer meat, but that's the first assumption. They're not going to the depraved just yet. He alerts the district baggage agent to hold these trunks for further inspection. And they don't. Again, they don't know who brought them on board just yet, but they're assuming they're gonna get claimed hopefully at some point. So this is, this timeline to me is wild. So this train gets in at 7:45, let's say 8 o'. Clock. They smell things. Now we're at noon. So we're talking about four hours of sitting here in it's California, it's a little bit warmer and this stuff is smelling and nobody wants to open it because it's locked with a key. They can't pick it. And I've tried to pick my lock because I locked it accidentally on my trunk and I had no luck picking it. So now we're at noon and there's a woman and a college aged young man who approach the front office and they say these are our trunks. And a clerk recognizes this guy, the college age young man, as Burton McKinnell. So Burton McKinnell, and he is a USC student, University of Southern California. They recognize him because he had been kind of off and on again helping station agents load and unload baggage over the last Christmas holiday just to make extra money. So they say this smells to the man and the woman, to Burton and this woman. They say these are just personal items. I don't know why they smell, but they're leaking. They don't have a good excuse. There's a stain at this point on the concrete. They might still have been thinking about deer meat contraband, but there are flies swarming. The stench is nauseating. At this point, look at your photo packet that I sent you the PDF.

[Paul Holes]

So I see a photo that has two trunks, one that is larger, that is laying horizontally. So it's basically laying in a position that these trunks typically would be in order to open it. And then the smaller trunk is on its end so it's more vertical. These trunks appear to be black or very dark color with a lot of decorative beading around the edges of each face as well as ornamental latches and hinges and have the protective metal corner covers, you know, so they're, they're designed for shipping, there's no question about it. You know, these are true steamer trunks. In this photo, both trunks are completely closed. I don't see anything indicating that there has been attempt to open them at this point. There appears to be a sticker on the front of the larger trunk, but I can't make out whatever emblem or design is on that sticker. And then there's a man who is squatted down next to the larger trunk who is dressed in a suit and has a hat on. And I just don't know my hats, but it's one of those. It's not a top hat.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

It's just your standard cop hat.

[Paul Holes]

Right. He looks like he's in a position of authority, I guess that's all I can say. And it appears that he's focusing in on something on the larger trunk.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yep. And they are growing more and more concerned because it is spilling out all over at this point. And the district baggage agent says, open the trunks. And they say, we don't want to be liable for any kind of damage to the items. And so they ask this couple, but they say that the keys are at home and so we'll leave and then we'll come back. And they let them leave because they don't have proof of anything except a stinky couple of trunks.

[Paul Holes]

I think one of the questions that's gotta be going through their head if they're thinking this is, you know, smuggled venison, you know, it's only been less than maybe half a day, a little more than half a day since it left Phoenix. Obviously, whoever is smuggling this venison didn't package it appropriately in order to keep it preserved. So it's actually useful to whoever's going to grab it on the other end.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

And then this timeline gets even longer. 4:30, they haven't come back. So, you know, again, I go back to the timeline. They arrive at 7:45 in the morning. Now we're at 4:30 and the district baggage agent, the guy we saw in the photo, says, that's it. And they call the police nine hours afterward. Detective Frank Ryan comes at 5:00'. Clock. He immediately recognizes the dark ooze as blood and he picks the lock and he's gonna open up the trunk in a second. But at what stage of. Because you guys know, come on, there's body in at least one of these trunks, but at what stage of decomp does it turn brown? Where you have a guy who's in his mid-40s who doesn't recognize that this nasty stuff on the concrete is blood? I mean, I guess it really does. It turns that kind of brown.

[Paul Holes]

Well, there's a. I mean, blood can assume a whole spectrum of colors from the very bright red to black and anything in between. And then if you get mold growing on it or fung, you know, fungus, most certainly you can have different appearances that that blood stain can assume. Now if you have blood that's leaking out of this trunk and it's not bright red, then you know, it's. It, it is, it's sat for a while and with the smell, with the flies, there is, you know, putrefaction that has occurred. There's a decompositional process that is occurring and it's, it, it's hard to say right now just because the blood is dark. Well, how long has it been? Or what were they actually seeing? Was this something where you have blood that is seeping due to injuries to a body inside and then now it's leaking out through this trunk? It's not fresh. That's probably the only thing that I could conclude at this point, just due to the. But at what stage decomposition, I can't say just based off of the color of the blood.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Okay, so they look inside. In the big trunk there is a piece of a rug, there are books, there are assorted papers and there are shreds of blood stained women's clothing. They look under a handmade quilt and they find the body of a dark haired woman. I don't have a photo of this person, but I'll just describe it. So she's wearing pink pajamas. She is curled in the fetal position and she is in a terrible bad state of decomposition. It's hard to make out her features on her face because there's so much bloating. And this is a whole body, unlike who we're going to discover next.

[Paul Holes]

What time of year is this? It's 1931.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

It is October 19th, but it has been unusually warm both in Phoenix, which was the origination, and then in la, which is the destination.

[Paul Holes]

Right. And these trunks of course have been transported from Phoenix to LA in unair conditioned environment. So they. Even though it's overnight, there'd be some cooling, of course, you know, but it sounds like with the bloating, the smell that this woman was likely dead for a period of time before being put into the trunk is what I am guessing without actually seeing the photos.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Well, maybe this next bit will clarify things for you. There is in the smaller trunk, when they open it up, they pick the lock. There are sheets of paper smeared with blood and they are laying on top of a light cotton sheet. And there is a woman's body from the head to the navel only.

[Paul Holes]

Okay.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Her arms are crossed across her breasts. In the center of the trunk is where she is. On either side of the head there are two bundles of women's clothing. Each bundle contains a foot and a leg, and the rest of her body is missing. This is significantly less bloated. And the police say it's because there's less fluid in her. Now. I don't know why that's the case. And we will have photos of this woman. I just didn't know when you wanted to see them.

[Paul Holes]

Now when they are describing bloating when a body decomposes and, you know, you live in Texas and you've probably seen this, so I'm not sure you've paid much attention. But if you watch roadkill and animals on the side of the road, and then over the course of the next few days, you see that animal blow up like a balloon, its legs end up sticking out of like a raccoon.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I've never seen that and I hope to never see that, Paul, but thank you for that.

[Paul Holes]

Start paying attention.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Oh, my gosh, no. The vultures get to it, I think beforehand. They drag a deer off the side of the road here.

[Paul Holes]

So anyway, yeah, yeah, there. There could be mitigating factors out there, but. No, but, you know, a lot of that, that, that abdominal bloating is coming from the gases that are generated by the bacteria that are within the intestines. And so now you get a lot of these gases that haven't escape yet. And so the body bloats up and so the abdomen ends up being very distended here, in this case, with the part of the women's body. Well, now what you've got is you've in essence opened up the body, so the gases aren't being contained. So the bloating aspect isn't part of what that body is experiencing because it's already been, I hate to use the term popped. But in essence, that's what's happened. I've been in a morgue with a very bloated body and the pathologist came over with a scalpel and just stabbed the abdomen. And then it was just a poof. It's just like a balloon.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Oh, my God. You need a disclaimer at the beginning of this somehow. Please don't be eating while we have this discussion.

[Paul Holes]

But I think that that's what is going on here versus what did you say? They drew a conclusion that they said.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

That body had significantly. The second one had significantly less bloating because they had said there's less fluid and it's because she was dismembered and the blood must have come out at the actual scene versus this whole body in the first trunk.

[Paul Holes]

Yeah, you know, they're, they're not. They're not factually correct, but, you know, the dismemberment is, is really the reason why they're not seeing the bloating. Now, I don't. I don't know if the body is showing signs of decomposition that is equivalent to the other body in the large trunk or not. So there would be other signs that could be looked for, such as marbling through the blood vessels, skin slippage, et cetera, that might indicate that this dismembered body was possibly at the same stage decomposition as the whole body in the larger trunk. But right now, I don't know.

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[Kate Winkler Dawson]

It's beautiful, it's warm, and it's really nicely fitting.

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[Ed Helms/Kal Penn]

Hey, everyone. Ed Helms here.

[Paul Holes]

And hi, I'm Cal Penn, and we're the hosts of Irsay, The Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club.

[Ed Helms/Kal Penn]

This week on the podcast, I am sitting down with Jennie Garth, host of the iHeart podcast. I choose me to discuss the new Audible adaptation of the timeless Jane Austen classic Pride and Prejudice. This is not a trick question. There's no wrong answer. What role would I play?

[Narrator/Host]

You know what? I can see you as Mr. Darcy.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

You got a little Colin Firth.

[Ed Helms/Kal Penn]

Okay, that's really sweet. I appreciate that, but are you sure I'm not the dad? I'm not Mr. Bennett. Here, listen to Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Do you want to see photos of the body in what I will tell you is the most, to me, the most gruesome autopsy photos I've ever seen. And of course we will not be putting on social media.

[Paul Holes]

Sure.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Or do you want to hear more about what's found in other body parts and stuff like that in the other pieces of luggage? Which one first?

[Paul Holes]

Well, let's complete the luggage and then I can go and take a look at the autopsy photos.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Okay. So in these trunks there are photos of the victims and I'll tell you about them in a little bit. So a detective finds a green saw edged bread knife, so serrated knife I'm assuming, with a blade about 10 inches long. And two women's purses. One purse contains three.25 caliber shells exploded. The other purse contains a fourth shell and a spent bullet and a few wisps of hair sticking to the bloody glass of a picture frame. And then there's more, but I don't know if you wanted to talk about that stuff first.

[Paul Holes]

You know, this is where it gets suspicious is that you have in one purse you have three.25 caliber cartridge cases. You know, you use the term shell, but technically it's a cartridge case. So this is a round of ammunition that has been discharged. And the cartridge case, the shell is remaining inside the gun or if it's a semi auto, it's been ejected out. So somebody's taken time to scoop up these three cartridge cases and put them in this purse. Now, we don't know if these cartridge cases are related to the homicide of these victims yet or not. Then you have another purse that has a.25 caliber cartridge case plus a bullet. And then you said there was some hair associated.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

In this time period, it was common for you to kind of have there's like a favorite motto or favorite phrase and you would print it out or have it printed and then frame It. There is that kind of a frame with a motto that nobody can read because there's blood and broken glass all over it. And there's some hair sticking to the bloody glass of this picture frame. Frame, no.

[Paul Holes]

Interesting.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I don't know if they were hit by that, somebody was hit over the head with this frame, or what. How does it end up in the trunk? This seems messy.

[Paul Holes]

Yeah, that's. I think it's. It's hard to say without taking a look at the photos. You know, this is part of, you know, processing. This trunk is documenting every layer as you remove items, you know, and this may have been an item that was in this trunk before the body was placed in there. And that's the reason why it's broken. That's why it has blood. And maybe some hair got caught up, you know, on that, you know, or it was something that at the crime scene, you know, where the victim's killed, you know, whatever happened caused blood and hair to get onto this frame, if you will, and that the offender noticed and said, well, I got to clean things up and place it into the trunk. Who knows? You know, there's all sorts of possibilities right now.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Okay, well, let's talk about some more discoveries before we finally leave this awful crime scene. Inside of the.

[Quince Advertisement Voice]

In.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

In the waiting area of this train station, someone notices behind the door of the women's bathroom, there are two more items. One is a woman's worn tan suitcase, and another is a hat box. And in a minute, I have photos of all four of the items together. So you can kind of see size and stuff like that.

[Paul Holes]

Where are these found? These are found in the train bathroom area.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

So in the depot? Yeah. So as if someone got off the train, had these two items, and left them behind the women's bathroom. Or maybe they're not connected. I mean, but they think this is weird. Why would somebody have abandon these nice items?

[Paul Holes]

Exactly. You know, so you have to pay attention to it.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yep. Okay, so there's another detective who shows up. His name is David Davidson. Okay, David Davidson. He arrives on the scene at 11:20pm and so, I mean, I just. I don't know why I think this is incredible, but it is sort of that eight hours or something, almost 10 hours after this train first pulls in. In his report, he says that he opened the old tan suitcase and there is another section of the body that had been dismembered. It is the lower female torso. So waist to knees, clothed in pink pajamas and wrapped in a sheet and a blanket in this suitcase.

[Paul Holes]

Okay.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

And I'm gonna wanna see these pretty soon because I can't imagine being able to hide somebody in a suit, a suitcase. Are any of these items really that big? I guess so.

[Paul Holes]

You know, I don't know what size suitcase we're looking at. But a larger suitcase, if you package a lower body of maybe a smaller human. Absolutely can hold that. I mean, that doesn't surprise me at all.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Okay, let me tell you a couple more things and then I'll show you. I think it's going to be three photos in a row, and then we'll get to the autopsy stuff. So this torso is missing intestines and a bladder. And in the hat box. So the torso's in the brown little suitcase. In the hat box, there is an empty surgeon's bag which has also on the side, surgical dressing, one old kit of surgeon's instruments, one.25 caliber Colt automatic pistol, several pieces of women's wearing apparel, is what they called it. 40 rounds with one box Winchester. 25 automatic cartridges and miscellaneous cosmetics. What is happening? I mean, it's just like haphazard. Throw this in here and some makeup in here along with the torso. I don't get it.

[Paul Holes]

Well, you know, I would say at this point, obviously we have two dead females. The offender had access to a large steamer box that an adult female. I'm assuming these are adult females at this point, but I don't know that they are. Okay, so the larger steamer box he was able to place a whole body into, but now he's got another victim that in order to be able to transport, he's having to cut that victim up and distribute her body parts across the two, the smaller steamer trunk and the tan suitcase. And my understanding is no body parts are in the hat box, right?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

No, no body parts, as far as I know, are in the hat box. Right.

[Paul Holes]

So the hat box is containing the. What he's seeing as the evidence of the crime. He's got the pistol that at least caliber wise, is matching the spent rounds found in these two purses, presuming those purses are each of the victim's purses. So that potentially could be the murder weapon. We don't know how these victims are killed yet, but that's. That's a possibility. And then he's got the source of the ammo. He's got the box of Winchester.25 caliber ammo and then the surgeon's bag. And this is interesting. Does this mean that this guy actually does have medical training or is this just something he had access to. And utilize the implements in order to dismember the bodies. So he's trying to get the victim's body away from Phoenix. He's trying to get the primary items of evidence. Yeah. So he's. In essence, it sounds like he's trying to clean up a crime scene out in Phoenix. Just like, why put all this on a train and ship it? And then you have people coming to claim these items. So that's. That's intriguing, you know, but he's. He's leaving some clues. You know, there's definitely investigative leads that can be followed with this. That's definitely an intriguing case you got here, Kate.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Well, there you go. I know that's the goal. Pole holes, as I say often. Now, I have a question. The lower female torso that we were just talking about, waist to knees, and they say it's missing intestines and bladder. Is that significant or is that, whoops, it fell behind. And I don't have time to pack it up to these two things or. We don't know.

[Paul Holes]

Well, at this point, don't know. You know, the bisection of this second victim, who's in the smaller trunk, don't have an accounting for what all is present within the upper part of her body body. But the fact that they are saying intestines are gone, the bladder is gone, this is something that the offender, for whatever reason, did not include in the transport. Now, when you bisect a body, particularly, you know, below the stomach level, the primary organ that you're having to deal with are these intestines. And they have a tendency to kind of be messy. And I could see where this person's going. This is going in a garbage bag and I'm going to dump it somewhere else versus trying to package that up and try to squeeze it into the trunk. It may just be a practical reason why the intestines and the bladder just may be part of the person, you know, going down inside the body to, in essence, remove the intestines by cutting through the. The rectum area and is also taking the bladder out at the same time. You know, I see, you know, when you watch autopsies, you see how pathologists will go through and remove the internal organs and they're having to go down low, down to where, you know, the rectum and the bladder are in order to access those organs.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

What kind of person. Dismembers. I've never understood that. I can understand almost every type of murder. What's the word? Where you drain the blood?

[Paul Holes]

Exsanguination, I think is how you say.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I somehow can wrap my head around all of that, but not somebody who can dismember who's, you know, not a surgeon or somebody who's trained. And we don't know what that is, but it just seems like a totally different mindset to me.

[Paul Holes]

It's a mindset, I think for me, for most offenders that resort to dismemberment, they are in a mode of self preservation and they're trying to get rid of this body. I have a case, the Helzer case out in Concord, California and an elderly couple and then the girlfriend of one of the offenders, they were horrifically dismembered, but they were dismembered using power saws. The legs are being cut off at the thigh level. There was no careful dissection that is occurring at all.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

All.

[Paul Holes]

And that was literally to package them up in smaller duffel bags and dump them in the delta. So, you know, I think for most that dismemberment is just a practical aspect to be able to transport bodies. And some have the stomach to be able to handle that. Some may have some experience, whether they're butchers, medical training, have hunters dealing with dressing animals or serial predators that grew up torturing animals and dismembering those bodies. So they have sort of a couple comfort with dealing with that. But then you also have offenders that resort to dismemberment and they're going off and throwing up during the dismemberment process.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Okay, I have the boring photos, which I know you want to see. So if you look at, you like all photos, if you look at pages 2, 3, 4, you see the bag, that hat box? Yeah.

[Paul Holes]

So the photo of the hat box, this, this is a photo showing this circular case with the lid open. Open. The case looks like it's on the order of maybe 8 inches, 8 to 10 inches deep. I'm surprised at sort of the, the inner cloth that's, that's inside this case. It's got like a pocket that's been put into the lid. So I mean, this is a, a fairly nice travel case, if you will, for smaller items. You know, they're calling it a hat case, but you can, could definitely use this to transport all sorts of things. You know, looking at these, these steamer trunks and this hat case, these weren't cheap items. This does not look like riff raff type of items. You know, these look like somebody who is willing to pay decent money for, for travel purposes. You know, in this photo of, of the hat case, there is One of the purses.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Look at the, the photo on page three. It looks like that. I think that's a corset. And then it looks like there's some bullets posted up above. This is just. This looks just like a, a dump of all the evidence they found. I see a shoe and that second one, a jacket. Maybe it's like somebody packed to go to Vegas and just left quickly or something.

[Paul Holes]

First, the, you, you, you commented about these bullets. So that's, that's actually a display of different calibers of bullets that are often found in laboratories, particularly back in the day. So what you'll see is, you'll see these bullets mounted on this board and they have a number associated with them. And then over to the right, you see the number and it's going to be the sort of the brand of the bullet, the caliber of the bullet, etc. So this would be like a reference chart that a firearms examiner back in the day would use and go, oh, this.25 caliber matches this make and model of bullet.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Oh, so they, sometimes they wouldn't automatically say, oh, that's definitely a.25, or that's definitely a.45. They would sometimes need a chart.

[Paul Holes]

There's measurements that they would take. You know, some of these bullets, when they're used in shootings and recovered out a victim's body or from a crime scene are deformed. And so they have to weigh the bullet. Do they have all the bullet? They have to pay attention. Is it just a lead bullet? Does it have jacketing on it? What kind of jacketing? Does it have any knurling? There's all sorts of characteristics that they would use to try to identify, you know, the, the make of that particular bullet as well as the caliber. And so that's what we're seeing here. But kind of in the foreground is, you know, other items of evidence. And you mentioned what would be described as a core set, which I'm assuming is this white object clothing item that's.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

In front, I think, but I'm not sure and I didn't read that on the Description. I'm not 100% sure.

[Paul Holes]

Yeah, I couldn't identify. It's obviously an item of, of clothing, but it appears that there are some blood stains on it that appear to be drops that have hit this item at an angle. Based off of these little pointers of the blood on the edges and in the photograph, a couple of these blood drops obviously hit this item, whether it be they were projected or this item just happened to be grazed by these blood drops from right to left. And then yeah, I see the shoe. There appears to be maybe a jacket with fur collar or fur something. And then other items appear to be piled this photo, oh, it's actually on butcher paper. So they have removed these items from one of the cases, I don't know which case, and dumped them on this butcher paper. This really isn't the way that you would document things.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

It's kind of a pile back off of the 1931. Detectives are doing the best they can, Paul.

[Paul Holes]

So anyways, okay. And then the next item, the next photo is just the two steamer trunks. And I'm assuming the tan suitcase that's.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

A lower torso is where that was in that smaller suitcase case.

[Paul Holes]

You know what's interesting with this photo, I've already described the two steamer trunks, but you can see all the scratches. These steamer trucks are well traveled. They're not brand new. They have been used in just normal daily life by whoever owned them. And then the tan suitcase, it's harder to say what it is composed of. Almost appears that it might have like a leather type type exterior with again the metal corner, protective corners, as well as what appear to be leather straps which might be used to help hold the suitcase closed in case, you know, the latches fail or something. But it also has extensive wear to it. This did not happen just on the train from Phoenix to la. This suitcase is also well used.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Let me tell you about the autopsy of the first woman who was in the fetal position. I don't have photos of her. I told you we'll have photos in a second of the other woman. So the LA's chief autopsy surgeon is a guy named Dr. A.F. wagner. So we'll just say Dr. Wagner, okay. He conducts the autopsy and he says that the woman in the larger trunk was killed from a single contact wound to the head. Head and the muzzle of the gun had been held so close to her left temple that there were powder burns around the entrance wound. And later a ballistics expert would also testify that the bullet had been fired downward and backward. There were no other bruises or scratches or nothing else with her body. And they identify her as a 32 year old woman named Agnes Ann Leroy Roy. And we're going to call her Anne.

[Paul Holes]

All right, and where is this contact wound to her head? Is it in the temple? The forehead?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

It said it had been held so close to her left temple that there were powder burns around the entrance wound. But what is the downward and backward kind of standing over her from behind?

[Paul Holes]

So the Downwards and backwards is relative to her body in the anatomic position. Everybody has seen sketches where you have a human body that is standing upright, arms are out, palms facing forward. And so the pathologist is looking at this trajectory. And when it's downwards, it indicates that it's going from high to low within her head and backwards is from front to back. Now, we can't position the shooter relative to the victim because we don't know the position the victim is in at the time she was shot. Is she standing up? Is she bent over? Is she sitting? Is she laying on her side? So the downwards and backwards is just a trajectory through her head at this point in in time. The contact wound to her left temple, this is, you know, what we see in executions where the gun, the muzzle of the gun, the front of the barrel is pressed hard up against the victim's head and then the shot is fired. What ends up happening is not only does the bullet go into the victim's head, but all the gas is gases from the firearms discharge go inside the head. And oftentimes if there isn't an exit wound where the gases can escape on the other side of the head, they will escape out that entrance wound. And so you'll see this tearing of the scalp around the entry wound. That's the gases escaping out the entry wound and the powder burns because it's so close. Now what you have is you have the singeing of the tissues. You have possibly fractured hair. When you start talking firearms, this is truly what we call an explosive level force. So hair will shatter. And so it's not uncommon to have shattered hair adhere to the gun or be found on the shooter's sleeve as an example. And you could potentially. And of course, there's potential gunpowder, both partially burned, as well as unburned gunpowder being being found within the entry wound. And the reason her head is intact is because this was a low powered weapon. It's a.25 caliber. If this had been something like a.357, her head would have been blown open.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Oh, okay, let's talk about the second woman because we will have photos. So let me just tell you what, what they say in the autopsy and then you can see the photos. She had also been shot. The woman in the trunk, her name is Hedvig, Sami Samuelson. So we're going with Sam. She is 24. She had also been shot. One bullet entered her left chest and lodged in her left arm. A second bullet penetrated the ring finger of her right hand. And a third bullet Was shot into her left temple at close range. The third bullet is the cause of death. There is also a superficial puncture wound in her left side of her knee, neck. It's not clear what the instrument would have been, who knows, but it was flimsy, so it could have been something in, you know, the small trunk or in the medium sized trunk. I don't know. Dismemberment, according to the surgeon who did the autopsy, had taken place within hours of death. And that is what we know medical wise about what happened to these two women.

[Paul Holes]

Yeah, as far, you know, in terms of the gunshot wound wounds, she has an entry into her left chest, but the bullet is found lodged in her left arm. So this is a, this is a round that enters into her chest, exits, and then goes into her arm. This is a common thing that it really, all it does is just indicate her arm is in wherever the exit wound was, was in the path of that bullet after it exited out her chest. The right ring finger having a, a bullet impact to it. It, that may be because she's in a defensive posture. It may not be, but that's something that we do see when, you know, somebody has a gun pointed at, at them, they put their hands up and now when the shots are fired, their hands end up getting hit by, by the rounds. And then she's executed. You know, she's got the gunshot wound to the left temple just like the first victim. Now, they're not describing it as a hard contact, right?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

That's not what I saw. No, not hard contact.

[Paul Holes]

Okay. But it's probably a very close shot. And so she's executed as well. But for whatever reason, you know, it appears that she's aware she's being shot and she is reacting to that shot before she's executed. The, the first victim isn't showing that at all. Is it possible to sequence these shots? And this is, this is just speculation. There's no harm. Hard science, if you will, in terms of this reconstruction. But with the first victim, you know, no reaction, no defensive posture wounds or anything like that. So it's possible you have these two women, maybe both, you know, asleep or both away awake. Whatever first victim is, is executed and then the second victim notices this, and now she's reacting and is now getting shot and it's taking multiple shots because she's moving. And then now the offender is able to come up and execute her as well.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Well, the time is here. Let's go ahead and look at the photos. There are quite a few of them. So you're starting on page five. This is Sammy, the woman who was dismembered. And feel free to give just enough information. These are terrible. And this did remind me of the Black Dahlia photos from the scene there too.

[Paul Holes]

So, you know, the first page of the photos is showing three photos of Sammy. And I'm going to kind of go in a counterclockwise manner with the photos as they're displayed on the page. So the upper right photo is Sammy's upper torso, which it looks like she is right. Maybe right at the belly button level. That's where she has been bisected. So her lower body was removed from the belly button level downwards. This photo is showing her upper body, including her head, laying somewhat on the left side. But you mostly on its back. Both arms are present. She's nude. Her. Her face doesn't look very disturbed. What's surprising to me is the lack of blood. So I don't know if this is after she's been cleaned up by the, you know, the coroner's office or if this is how she's found. She looks very fresh. She does not look very decomposed at all. I see the. The entry gunshot wound to her left chest, which is actually quite high up. It's. I would say it's maybe 2 inches below her left collarbone. And if that is actually found in her left arm, this is a shot that is going from her upper breast area and then is exiting probably around through her armpit area, maybe a little lower. And then is found embedded in her upper arm. But really devoid of any other types of, you know, major injuries that I can see. There's no stab wounds or doesn't appear to be anything to indicate severe beating. She has some discolorations in her face, but I can't tell what exactly those are. And then the next photo is her lower body, which is in essence from her roughly her belly button level down to her knee. Knees. And this is showing the. The wound that was used to cut the lower body off, as you had mentioned, the pathologist had noted. Or there's the lack of the intestines and bladder in this. In this lower body as well as in the upper body. So the offender is purposefully getting rid of those and is not including those within the suitcase. There is also a very large incision to her right hip that starts literally in at the upper part of the hip and then goes down into her groin area. I would say that that's the offender initially considering removing her right thigh.

[PayPal Advertisement Voice]

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[Paul Holes]

And. And abandon doing that. And then ends up just, you know, keeping this hole versus further dismembering it. And it's possible maybe he decided that he was going to do the whole leg first and, and thought, no, this is going to be too hard. Going through the hip. And then he goes down to the knees and cuts through the knees, which much easier process to do. But it looks like he, you know, at the knee level, he's going through the joint, and he's not like, trying to saw through the long bones of the legs. And then the photo below that is also the lower body, as I just described, sitting on its right side next to the smaller steamer trunk. And so I'm assuming they're just trying to show the origin of where this lower body was, was found. And then below, below that is the next page. And this is just showing Sammy's body parts being pieced together. Both, you know, her laying on her back as well as her laying on her left side. It appears that her entire body, except for the intestines and bladder, look like they're accounted for. And the lower legs are in the photo in the upper left hand corner of this page. And it's just showing the wound wounds where the offender cut through the knees, you know, and it's pretty obvious looking at some of the fat layers, subcutaneous fat layers. There's no hemorrhaging during this incision. So she's dead at the point that her lower legs are removed.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

What does all of this say to you about the killer who we're now going to try to figure out the identity of? Is this somebody who's strong, physically strong, to be able to do all of this?

[Paul Holes]

No. You know, this in terms of the dismemberment process, again, is really for convenience of transport. It's a lot easier to transport smaller body parts than a whole body. And in this case, the offender chose to use steamer trunks and suitcases, you know, in order to fit the body parts in. So he just had to get Sammy's body small enough to fit within than the. The items that he had available for transport. The first victim is not cut up because he had a larger steamer trunk. He probably would not have dismembered Sammy if he had another large steamer trunk, but he didn't. That's. That's what that tells me. Now, the offender, of course, had to move these steamer trunks and Sammy, you know, I'm guessing she's. I mean, she is not overweight. Of course, we don't have photos, but she's in the large Steamer trunk. So you have a whole body in there. So I'm going to say, let's say another 100 pounds. So now the offender has about 240 pounds worth of, of body between the two bodies to move around. He could do that singularly. Or maybe he has some help moving the, these steamer trunks and the suitcase. I would say he doesn't need help. He just has to, you know, travel with the suitcases to get it to the train and get them on the train. The suitcases probably aren't anything unusual in terms of their, their weight relative to other steamer trunks, you know, that are, that are being put on there, that may have other, you know, lot of paper in them or something like that. You know, the dismemberment does not indicate anything about the offender, you know, his, his physical characteristics. You could have a very, you could have a woman doing this. This is, you know, there's nothing that I can discern from that. The way that these bodies are dismembered, as we have talked about on numerous occasions, you know, it doesn't necessarily indicate that the, the offender had any medical training. The only thing gives me pause is the fact that there is a surgeon's bag, if you will, but anybody could potentially possess something like that. You know, right now, you know, it's, it's wide open. It's, it's just the offender, you know, the, the puzzling aspect is why is the offender killing these two women and then transporting them on, on a train out to la, and then you have a woman and a college age kid coming to claim the steamer trucks. I mean, there's a clue.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Well, let's talk about Ann and Sammy and how they knew each other and that'll probably be helpful. They were good friends. They met in Alaska. Ann was a nurse and Sammy was a teacher. In 1931, they both moved to Phoenix and rented a cozy little duplex on north second street just on the outskirts of town. Ann was divorced twice. She was also not just a nurse, but an X ray technician at a local clinic. Clinic. Now we're going to talk about 1930s. Sammy was what is called a lunger. And I've heard this phrase before. This is someone who had tuberculosis who came to Phoenix in hopes that the Arizona heat, the dry heat, would help with the illness. So she came there to get better. She had tuberculosis sometime in the evening of when these trunks were discovered. While detectives in LA are collecting evidence at the train. And of course the autopsy's gone on. Policemen in Phoenix investigate this duplex which they would call disgustingly in the press, the murder cottage. In the bedroom, there are two rings of blood near the door. So there's one bedroom. Anne's bed is on the north wall of the room. Sammy's bed is on the south wall of the room. Detectives find blood splattered undone Ann's bed dotting the floor and splashed onto the baseboards. But the walls are clean. There is no blood on or around Sammy's bed. Both mattresses are missing. And the one photo I have that would be helpful is of the hallway with very deep scratch marks of where it sounds like the trunks were being dragged across. So presumably somebody who has access to this apartment. Let me just say one more thing about this error. There was a corner of a bedroom rug that had been crudely hacked with a pair of surgical scissors. They say they, you know, of course, compare this chunk of rug to the one in the trunk that they found and it matches. They find a bloody thumbprint on the window shade. Looks like someone left while pulling down the shade. This fingerprint, Phoenix police fingerprint. Three ginger ale bottles which had been found next to a partially consumed bottle of whiskey in an ice box refrigerator. It is unsecured. This whole crime scene reporters are milling around. I mean, not shocking for this time period. The next day, the landlord begins selling tours of the apartment for 10 cents ahead.

[Paul Holes]

Oh, wow.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

So what do you think? The ginger ale I thought was interesting.

[Paul Holes]

You know, well, the most interesting thing, of course is the bloody thumbprint. You know, if that actually is blood from one of the victims, then that's going to be, you know, very critical in terms of identifying who the offender is. Now, the ginger ale bottles, the bottle of whiskey that has found. Are Sammy and Ann entertaining somebody? Did they have somebody over and then something goes sideways and now they're killed. Do you have potentially offender prints on the ginger ale bottles? Of course. Would today would be looking for DNA as well as the whiskey bottle. Did either Sammy or Anne drink whiskey? You know, I know you don't, you.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Know, and yet you're still friends with me. Thank you.

[Paul Holes]

I know. You know, even though, you know, the photos of Sammy at autopsy are showing her unclothed initially when her body was found, as well as Anne's body is found, it indicates at least they had pink pajamas on. At least with Sammy, the lower part of her body had the pink pajamas on. Is that indicative that there isn't a sexual aspect to the case? Maybe. You know, I wouldn't necessarily draw a firm conclusion, but they had gotten ready for Bed. And the fact that two mattresses are gone out of this apartment suggests to me that each victim was killed in their own bed. And the offender is seeing blood on each mattress, and that's why those mattresses are gone. And then how does the offender get those mattresses out of this condo complex? Are those just found in the dumpster to the complex or does the offender have a vehicle there and that's something that he takes to, to the landfill or whatever, some restaurant dumpster. But he's also cleaning up the crime scene and in essence, taking the victim's bodies and the smaller items from the crime scene, packaging them up and shipping them out to la. It's so bizarre.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

It is, I'll tell you, a little bit of evidence that Phoenix police, as they're searching for physical evidence, there is a vacant lot miles from the north, north second street duplex. They find one of the missing mattresses. It's clean, clean. Nothing on that mattress at the duplex. They find blood stains in the bathroom. So everything had been in the bedroom until now, blood stains in the bathroom and a mop handle in the garbage. And they think that the mop had been burned after Sammy's body had been dismembered in the bathtub. So that's what they think happened. And I had wondered about that too, also. Before you react to that, I wanna ask you about the timeline. The train that was going from Phoenix to LA was an 8 o' clock train. 8, 10 that night. So it's October and it could be still light outside, a little bit dusky. I don't know how long it would take to do all of this. You know, the mattresses being deposited places, the dismember. Does it make sense that this might have happened the night before the train happened?

[Paul Holes]

I would say the homicides occurred the night before. You know, who knows when the dismemberment happened? You know, this is where now the offender has killed these two women. And right now I'm just going to use the term offender very generically. I can't say it's one offender or more than one offender, but you have a single gun that's been used, right? They are killed sometimes time, you know, that nighttime before, whether it be the day before or it's after midnight and it's the same day. But the offender is. Now he's, he's calculating, how do I get away with this? And does he leave and come back? You know, are these steamer trunks something that belong to these women? You know, and so he's Utilizing what's present at the crime scene? Or does he bring something from his own residence in order to get, get rid of the victim's body and, and, and the other items of evidence? So that's a very significant aspect to this case. Steamer trunks, a tan suitcase, the hat case belong to. But the clean mattress is found in a vacant lot a distance away. The offender has access to a vehicle. Now, why is this mattress even being removed from the condo? It's not to get rid of blood evidence. That mattress is being used for another purpose. That mattress may have been used to cover up things inside the offender's vehicle. Could have been used to kind of stuff. Let's say he's got the back, back of a pickup truck and now he's putting this, you know, the various objects on top of a mattress, you know, and creating a sandwich to hide things. There's so many possibilities, but there's no reason for the offender to have removed a clean mattress from the condo. And I, I always say anytime the offender does something that is not necessary to commit the A crime, why is the offender doing that? So that's a pretty significant thing right there. He's taking time to burn the mop that he's using to mop up evidence. They must see some evidence that Sammy had been dismembered in the bathtub. And that's pretty typical. You know, that's where a lot of dismemberments occur. So, yeah, he's spending some time after the fact in terms of packaging the victim's bodies, getting the, you know, the steamer trunks, suitcase, the hat box, and then he gets them loaded into a vehicle, he cleans up the crime scene and he gets things transported out to the train. And he's also now, at least with the one mattress, he's taking the time to dispose of it. And we can't say he disposed of that before or after he gets the victims up into the train. You know, don't know at this point what the sequence is, so. But he's spending a fair amount of time trying to cover his tracks. And again, I'm using the term he just generically. I'm not drawing a conclusion as to the gender of the killer just yet.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Well, that was quite smart of you, Paul, because Burton and his female friend are both persons of interest. They identify the woman. This is not his girlfriend or older friend. This is his sister. She's 26 and her name is Winnie Ruth McKinley. And anyone who's into historical true crime, like myself, knows this name. She actually becomes known as the Trunk Murderess. She is their recent ex roommate. Okay. She has a story to tell. And now hold on because this is. We've got a part two judges. Simmer down, Pepper. We've got part two coming up here.

[Paul Holes]

All right, I'll restrain myself.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

She and Burton are into one. The police are trying to find them. They find out that she once lived with these two women. She has a very complicated story. She will be tracked down and her explanation for all of this is something that I think you'll find very interesting.

[Paul Holes]

All right, well, I'm on pins and needles, Kate.

[Narrator/Host]

Good.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I'll see you next week.

[Paul Holes]

All right, sounds good. Thank you.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

This has been an exactly right production.

[Paul Holes]

For our sources and show notes, go to exactlyrightmedia.com buriedbones sources.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Our senior producer is Alexis Amorosi, research.

[Paul Holes]

By Alison Trouble and Kate Winkler Dawson.

[Quince Advertisement Voice]

Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

[Paul Holes]

Our theme song is by Tom Breyfogel.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac, executive.

[Paul Holes]

Produced by Karen Kilgariff, Georgia Hardstark and Daniel Danielle Kramer.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook @ buriedbonespod.

[Paul Holes]

Kate's most recent book, all that Is Wicked, A Gilded Age Story of Murder and the Race to Decode the Criminal Mind, is available now.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

And Paul's best selling memoir, Unmasked My Life Solving America's Cold Cases, is also available now.

[Paul Holes]

Listen to Barry bones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

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