Horrors on the Homestead

Summary

Buried Bones: "Horrors on the Homestead" – Episode Summary

Podcast: Buried Bones
Hosts: Kate Winkler Dawson & Paul Holes
Episode Release: October 29, 2025
Case Discussed: The Bloody Benders, Kansas, 1870s

---

Episode Overview

In this chilling Halloween episode, Kate and Paul explore the infamous case of the Bloody Benders—a family of serial killers operating a homestead and general store on the Kansas frontier in the 1870s. Combining historical research and modern forensic insight, the hosts unpack the mysterious disappearance of the Bender family and their connection to a series of brutal murders discovered on their property.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Scene: Halloween Musings & Frontier Fears (03:20—12:00)

• Kate and Paul discuss Halloween traditions, the effect of graphic horror displays on children, and the cultural evolution of what scares us.
  • Kate questions, “Don't you have a right to put up whatever you want as long as it's not offensive?” (04:36)
  • Paul, drawing on his experience with explicit True Detective magazines and crime scenes, advocates balancing festive fun with consideration for young children:

    “...We don't want young children to have this type of imagery…but everybody has, you know, different experiences they want to have on Halloween.” (07:11)

• They segue into the case by contemplating the eeriness of the vast, isolated Kansas prairie, foreshadowing the unsettling events of the episode.
• Notable humorous detour: Kate’s Victorian chair woes and Paul’s “hemorrhoid pillow.”

2. The Disappearance on the Homestead (12:05—21:25)

• Kate introduces the case:
  • 1873, a remote family of four—John Sr., Elvira, their adult children Kate and John Jr.—vanishes from their cabin and general store along the Osage Trail.
  • The region is lawless and populated by drifters and fugitives.
  • Cabin is small (approx. 400 sqft), split into living quarters and a store for homesteaders passing through.
• Paul observes the remoteness:

  “If I were looking for a place to live, it wouldn’t be here, right?” (16:55)

• Neighbors are alarmed when the cabin is deserted, food and coffee left out, cattle starving, and the scene inside is chaotic.

3. Investigative Findings & Early Suspicion (21:25—31:15)

• A local search party, led by Sgt. Leroy Dick, splits to examine the property:
  • Discovery of a dozen bullet holes in the cabin, a bloodstained knife hidden in the mantle clock, and Dr. William York’s horse bridle behind the grocery counter.
• The secret cellar beneath the cabin emits the stench of decomposition, though no bodies are immediately found—only bloodstains and a passageway beneath the cabin to the orchard.
• Paul analyzes possibilities: a potential shootout, ransacking, and movement of a decomposing body from cellar to orchard.

“That body was in this little cellar room…somebody came back and moved that body…what they're smelling is the remnants, you know, the decomposing fluids that are still in the cellar room…” (35:47)

4. Connecting Past Disappearances & Victims (31:15—43:58)

• The community connects recent events to earlier disappearances on the Osage Trail:
  • Dr. William York’s body is found, face-down and bludgeoned, in the orchard.
  • Distinctive hammer wounds are matched to tools found on the property—a shoe hammer, claw hammer, and a sledgehammer.
  • Earlier bodies (William Jones and John Phipps), as well as several unidentified victims, had suffered similar brutalities.
• Discussion of forensic limitations of the era and the significance of local knowledge adding context.

5. The Gruesome Discovery: Mass Grave & Modus Operandi (51:48—59:12)

• Searchers uncover a mass grave in the Bender orchard—shallow graves containing the remains of up to 20 people, mostly men.
• Mutilations observed—many victims had their heads bashed, throats cut, and some had penises mutilated or removed. One victim, a little girl, was found without signs of mutilation but with dirt under her fingernails (possibly buried alive).
• Paul immediately notes:

  “Penis is being cut off…Now I start going into…a sexual predator…[but] it’s also possible the offender just needed clothing…” (56:32)

6. The Bloody Benders Exposed (59:12—66:40)

• Kate reveals: The missing family are the perpetrators—the notorious Bloody Benders, a German immigrant family infamous for luring, robbing, and murdering travelers in their frontier “inn.”
• Family Dynamics:
  • Mysterious relationships—John Jr. and Kate may have posed as siblings but acted more like a couple.
  • Kate Bender marketed herself as a clairvoyant and healer, drawing victims in.
  • Noted by Kate: “Kate is clearly the draw…She has ads in newspapers that say she can cure blindness, fits…”
  • The men would ambush victims from behind a curtain and the family would collectively dispose of bodies.
  • Murders marked in a prayer book: “Big slaughter day, January 8th.”
• Paul surmises:

  “There is a sexual aspect to these crimes, I'm absolutely convinced of that.” (64:05)

7. The Ultimate Vanishing Act & Enduring Mystery (66:41—75:55)

• The Benders vanish in April 1873, splitting up after leaving a hotel. Despite manhunts and sightings over decades, they are never found.
• The cabin’s tools and evidence are now in museums; the University of Kansas continues investigating and excavating the site.
• Paul laments:

  “It kind of galls me that they just disappeared and we know who they are…let's track them down.” (71:44)

• Discussion turns to modern forensic potential: Could DNA from handled weapons or artifacts shed light today?

8. Reflections, Profiling, and Lasting Questions

• Paul explores family dynamics—possible incest, sexual paraphilia, and the rare pathology of a family “murder team.”
• Kate summarizes the case’s enduring legacy and supernatural aura, especially as a uniquely “American Gothic” horror.

“It's maddening…to have a family like the Bloody Benders and not understand not just what their motives were, but also where the hell did they go?” (70:37)

---

Notable Quotes & Moments

• Paul on Graphic Displays & Empathy:
  “There's reasons why we don't want young children to have this type of imagery…” (07:14)
• Kate on the setting:
  “Open spaces like that, there’s almost like—where are you going to run?” (21:10)
• Paul on forensic possibilities:
  “Can we get some good DNA…do genealogy and see if any offspring…pop up anywhere?” (71:19)
• Kate’s Reveal:
  “They are some of, in the 1800s, probably the most well known in America, serial killers because of what they did…They are called the Bloody Benders.” (59:38)
• Paul on the family’s pathology:
  “All four of them could be interacting sexually with each other. But…I’ve never heard of a foursome like this.” (62:51)
• Kate on unsolved mysteries:
  “This is like a Jack the Ripper—that’s the lore.” (69:54)

---

Timeline of Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment Topic | | -------------- | -------------------------------------------------------------------- | | 03:20–12:00 | Halloween chat, case introduction, setting the tone | | 12:05–21:25 | Bender family background, the missing homestead | | 21:25–31:15 | Investigation, crime scene findings | | 31:15–43:58 | Historical victim connections, mass grave context | | 43:58–51:48 | Forensic analysis, hammer evidence | | 51:48–59:12 | Discovery of the orchard graves, mutilations profiled | | 59:12–66:41 | Major reveal: The Bloody Benders and their criminal operation | | 66:41–75:55 | The family’s disappearance, forensic hopes, legacy of the case | | 75:55–end | Credits, banter, post-case reflections |

---

Final Takeaways

• The Bloody Benders may be the U.S.’s most infamous family of serial killers, yet their ultimate fate remains an enduring, chilling mystery.
• Kate and Paul’s blend of historical context and modern forensic wisdom enhances understanding of both the known facts and lingering uncertainties.
• The episode probes the psychological motivators for familial murder teams and the limitations (and opportunities) of 19th- vs. 21st-century crime-solving.

---

For more on the Bloody Benders and this episode’s case photos, visit @buriedbonespod on Instagram.

Transcript

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

This is exactly right.

[SpinQuest Advertiser]

I'm here with spinquest where you can play and win from the comfort of your own home with hundreds of slot games and all of the table games you love with real cash prizes. Right now, thirty dollar coin packs are on sale for ten dollars. For new users. It's all at spinquest.com that's S P-I.

N Q U-E-S-T.com Spinquest is a free to play social casino void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.

[BetterHelp / Quince Advertiser]

This show is sponsored by better help. October 10th is World Mental Health Day. Better Help is celebrating by shining a spotlight on therapists, the ones who help people move forward every day. Better help has over 30,000 therapists and has helped more than 5 million people worldwide, making it the largest online therapy platform out there. And Better Help therapists work according to a strict code of conduct and are fully licensed in the US and it works with an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 for a live session based on over 1.7 million client reviews. Having a connection with that therapist is so important.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

And the great thing about Better Help.

[BetterHelp / Quince Advertiser]

Is you have so many therapists to choose from. This World Mental Health Day, let's celebrate the therapists who have helped millions of people take a step forward. If you're ready to find the right therapist for you, Better Help can help you start that journey. Our listeners get 10% off their first [e-mail] buriedbones that's better. H E L P.com buriedbones when you.

[LEGO Star Wars Advertiser]

Say LEGO Star wars, the first thing you think of is imagination or action. Or both. Definitely both. Like with Jango Fett's Starship. I mean, with Stud Blasters, seismic charges and three minifigures, your kid is gonna be creating stories until the Banthas come home. And for yourself, there's the Jango Fett's Fire Spray class Starship LEGO set from the Ultimate Collector series. Enjoy some Jedi Master level mindfulness during your building time. Shop now for Star wars lego sets on lego.com or in lego retail stores.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Kate I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who spent the last 25 years writing about true crime.

[Paul Holes]

And I'm Paul Holz, a retired cold case investigator who's worked some of America's most complicated cases and solved them.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Each week I present Paul with one of history's most compelling true crimes.

[Paul Holes]

And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring new insights to old mysteries.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true Crime cases through a 21st century lens.

[Paul Holes]

Some are solved and some are cold. Very cold.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

This is buried bones. Hey, Paul.

[Paul Holes]

Hey, Kate. How are you today?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I'm doing really well. Happy Halloween.

[Paul Holes]

Oh, you too.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

We're a couple days off, but we start. I've said this before, we start so early and I know you said you guys throw up some stuff and that's it. You're very anti climatic about Halloween. You're sort of like, meh, you know, we'll answer the door and give the kids some treats and that's it.

[Paul Holes]

There's aspects of Halloween that I could most certainly really get into, you know, but just really have never taken the effort.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

So I have kind of an odd internal debate that I have with myself every Halloween for a couple of years in a row. Tell me what you think about this. For a few years in a row, these are not our neighbors, but they're on a major road. It's a family that lives on the kind of a major road that go. It's near a grocery store and across the street from like a snow cone place. A lot of kids travel along it. For the last few years, this family, as many families do, they decorate the outside of the house for Halloween. But they've done something interesting, which is they sort of put up a reenactment of a scene that was from maybe like a Friday the 13th or Halloween, which, you know, is what I grew up with. I mean, I'm a Halloween fan. I don't like horror movies, but you know, I had seen the original. But it is that scene that you and I have actually talked about in True Detective, which is the screaming woman who's sort of flailing on the ground and, you know, the killer coming after her. And they had made this scene. And so it is a mannequin doll kind of thing that looks terrified and is screaming and then an ax murderer coming after her. And there were all sorts of complaints because it scares little kids. I mean, this is down the street from an elementary school. Sure, but it's also a legitimate part of Halloween. It's from the Generation X people, you know, who grew up with that. But. But I mean, it's also kind of in the true detective realm too, which is kind of gross. I don't know if Halloween aged that well. Young people having sex and then being murdered is kind of the way I summarize a lot of those stories. So what do you think about that? I mean, it's Halloween and you should be festive, but at the same time, little kids are crying and, you know, but don't you have a right to put up whatever you want as long as it's not offensive?

[Paul Holes]

Well, I guess, you know, first I've, I've never seen the movie Halloween, you know, so I, I can just envision, though, exactly what you're talking about. And you know, to clarify, when you, when you say, you know, out of True Detective, you're talking about the true Detective magazines.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Right? Magazines.

[Paul Holes]

And you know, for, for somebody who's worked the cases I've worked, you know, those True Detective magazines are characterized as porn for the sexual sadist because they literally get off seeing women in such compromised positions, screaming, the man holding a knife up against her, she's bound in some way, et cetera, you know, all these various permutations. And you know, on one level, I can understand the Halloween costume. It's in fun. You know, people kind of gravitate towards the spooky and the ghoulish. And so I think I'm torn about something like that because of this location. Maybe this type of setup would be something that should be a little bit more hidden from plain view. And I've seen some of these pretty extensive Halloween displays for trick or treaters. And people will have a fairly tame display up front that the little kids can walk through. And then there'll be a source of candy right there. And then there's also a secondary location for the adults to go into, and there's a sign that basically is saying graphic past this point. I think doing something like that maybe is, I don't want to use the term responsible because I don't want anybody listening to think I'm a fuddy duddy. Heavily involved. Yeah, that I'm just being a fuddy duddy. But I, but I just think it's also, you take a look at who typically is out and about on Halloween night and you are dealing with five and seven year olds. Yeah, you're right. You know, and there's reasons why we don't want young children to have this type of imagery. But I also don't want to, you know, go, well, don't have fun either, because everybody has, you know, has different experiences that they want to have on Halloween. So, you know, I'm kind of torn, but I think, yeah, maybe keeping something that, that's, that's that graphic a little bit more out of plain view may be a better way to do it.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

And, you know, it's interesting because, you know, there was a lot of outrage, which I understood, but there's so many horrible. What I would say are fun, but that are violent imagery for Halloween out there. But it is all fake stuff. It is like ghouls and goblins and the headless horseman holding his own head, which I love by the way. Like there's all that kind of stuff that legitimately will scare you, but it's not real. It's, you know, supernatural. That scene depicting some mass murderer going after a woman, that was realistic. I mean, it didn't look like real people, but it was depicting a scene that was definitely out of a slasher film. Having a six year old see that would be pretty awful. And the neighbors who did it really were pissed. I mean there's only. That's the only way I can describe it from the backlash. And they put up a. In dramatic fashion. They put up like a sheet, like maybe several bed sheets and covered the scene from the street. And then they had spray painted essentially the name of our neighborhood. Censored by the name of the neighborhood.

[Paul Holes]

Oh yeah.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I just thought, okay, so it was dramatic, you know.

[Paul Holes]

Yeah, it's, you know, and I know it's hard and I can see where people would really polarize with something like that.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah.

[Paul Holes]

Where I was living in California, there was this one couple that did this amazing Dexter scene in the garage where literally it's Dexter standing over a saran wrapped body and there's blood everywhere, everywhere and everything like that. But it was tucked back into the garage itself. You know, so you could see as a, as a parent walking your kids, you know, you're going, well, I'm not taking them in there.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I mean, I think if I had little kids, I'd be kind of offended too, for sure. But then I look back and I go, I love that kind of movie. But then I thought, yeah, but it just didn't age well. Especially when you and I. I was just telling my class this today about the true crime detective and you telling me that, you know, some of the most well known serial kill were found with these magazines and what that really means. And so, yeah, I mean, you know, that's the part of Halloween that I think can be really touchy for people.

[Paul Holes]

No, for sure.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

So, you know, let's scare the shit out of little kids, but in a different way. Maybe right now, save the horror films for later. And this was up for several weeks before Halloween even started. So of course, yeah, they were milking it for sure. But then hopefully nobody's offended by my pal back here, the one who's desperately still Hoping that Victorian chairs are comfortable, which they aren't. So if you see me shifting around, if you've ever noticed me shift around in this chair, probably about three quarters through basically every episode we've ever done, it's because my left butt cheek has fallen asleep. Oh, because. Because the chair needs to be somehow updated. But, yeah, I feel bad. I see why the Victorians could be so uptight.

[Paul Holes]

Well, you know, when I was having a lot of pain in my left hip, I was using one of those. To me, it looks like a hemorrhoid pillow. You know, just so it was softer and that would avoid some of the pain. Versus now my hip is better. So, you know, I don't have to have that hemorrhoid pillow underneath me anymore.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I can't believe we're talking about this. We went from Jason and Michael Myers to hemorrhoid pillars. That was a good transition. Well, I promised you a spookier story, and we're gonna have spooky stories here because this is a lot of missing people, and we're trying to sort out who's responsible and what is happening where. This is also a spooky time period. 1870s in the Midwest. I don't know if that's a spooky area for you, but I am scared of vast open spaces. Also, I'm scared of the countryside and the vast open spaces. Where am I not scared? I guess by the ocean. And so this is the Midwest in the 1870s, and it's a little bit of a. Hallo story.

[Paul Holes]

All right, well, I'm looking forward to it.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Okay, let's set the scene. We are in 1873. It's May 6th, and we are outside of a wooden cabin on the frontier. This part of the frontier is 14 miles east of Independence in Kansas and a half a mile southeast of a couple places that I've never even heard of before. And so we are in what they would say then was Indian territory, which is a very treacherous place. And it's not because of the Osage Native Americans, but rather all of these criminals and fugitives that have run from the east coast out to, you know, the frontier to escape justice. So already we're in kind of a lawless area to begin with. And we're at this cabin, and we have a really. It's a small space. And the reason is because on the frontier prairies, the lumber is really scarce. And so everything was, you know, very small. When I was in Cape Cod a couple of months ago with my family, we stayed in a 18th century home. And my kids kept saying, the ceilings are so low. And I. And you and I had discussed this before where, you know, I thought, oh, maybe the men were of shorter stature back then. And I know that that can happen. But I had a listener email me, and what she said makes sense, which is just the lack of resources meant that they were not gonna make tall ceilings in the 1700s, potentially. And so, you know, they made them just tall enough. So anyway, this is a small cabin. The family that lives there squeezes into about 400 square feet. And they're using half of the cabin as a storefront, which is pretty interesting. So they took a canvas wagon cover and divided the space into two different rooms. And I'll tell you about the family in a bit because they're in trouble. They're missing. And, you know, the cabin, the front part of the cabin, just to give us some context, like I said, is a general store. And the kind of business they built was just something that was very profitable in this time because you have so many people who are just pushing west, literally pushing west. And so you have all of these homesteaders and frontiersmen who needed to buy supplies and provisions, and they want tobacco, and they can get all of it from this particular store. And it's on what's called the Osage Trail. And they could also grab dinner there if they wanted to. So a remote space, and I wanted to show it to you. And so there are quite a few for 1871. There are a decent amount of photos for this story. And so this might be a good time to just show you, because we do have a missing family, how remote we're talking about here. So the first photo and the second photo only check it out. And you could see this is the cabin. First one's a, you know, kind of a closer up shot, so you can kind of just see the size. And these are locals who are around the cabin because it does turn into a pretty bad crime scene. And then you'll see the second one, which is a sketch and a depiction. I just wanted you to see the wideness of what we're talking about.

[Paul Holes]

You know, this cabin looks like it's just on open plains. You know, if there's any vegetation, it looks like it's, you know, weeds and grass.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah.

[Paul Holes]

No trees anywhere in sight, really. The cabin itself, you know, this is a. You know, it's a single story gable roof. I mean, it's hard to call it a house. It's. It's tiny. I'm shocked about at how many different products that they are selling. Yeah, out of this. But, yeah, no, it is definitely remote. And it looks like you can see in any direction all the way to the horizon. There's no hill, hills, nothing that's really blocking it. And. And then the, you know, the sketch just shows the cabin with maybe a few other structures and then horses and various, you know, people, I'm assuming, you know, that are, you know, along this. What is Osage Trail, you know, passing through. So, you know, immediately, you know, of course, remoteness is significant. And then the transient nature of the population at this location, you know, because people are just constantly flowing along the trail.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah. And so for me, when I think about the dust bowl, that will happen decades later, this shows why it would happen. You know, with no vegetation, dry dirt, drought conditions, massive winds coming in and creating, like, a cyclone effect, nothing in this scene feels grounded to me. You know, I mean, just like a gust of wind could knock over this whole little homestead here.

[Paul Holes]

Well, and I look at this, and if I were, you know, somebody that was looking for a place to live, it wouldn't be here, Right?

[BetterHelp / Quince Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

So I'm glad that Allison, our crack researcher on this one, found the photos, because I had pictured off a trail, just rows of trees and kind of in a forested area, places where people could sneak around and jump the family and stuff. And. No, there's nowhere to hide with this.

[Paul Holes]

Not at all.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

You know, they are literally coming down almost like a desert stopping. And there's a sign that's not there anymore that said groceries. So when you're talking about being vulnerable, as this family would be, you know, you're in this open space, you're advertising that you have items that are valuable and maybe you have some guns, but with enough people, if they show up, if you've got a gang of criminals show up here, this family is wiped out almost instantly. There's four people living here. So there's Elvira, and you've got John Senior, and then Kate and John Junior.

[Paul Holes]

Okay.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

And those are their adult children. So you've got four people in, let's just say, 200 square feet, which this cottage is, you know, a little less than 200 square feet. And then you've got the storefront. I don't know how much the storefront is, but, man, this is. Isn't it ironic that all of that space and because of a lack of lumber, they have to make this little tiny house? They're the only ones around for miles and miles and miles?

[Paul Holes]

Yeah. And there's Also no services. You think about it, you know, something happens to this family, where's law enforcement coming from? How far away is law enforcement or any neighbors really to be able to help out?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

The people who come across this, you know, they're alarmed because again, we always come back to the. I always use the same example of the woman who left the laundry out overnight and it rained and she didn't bother to come pick it up. Something's happened to that woman. I mean, that's how we know. And in this time period, people were very alarmed because they had cattle roaming loose all over the property. I didn't. But there's apparently some kind of fencing that's up, you know, to keep the cattle in. They do have cattle. It looks like they've been unfed for at least several days. And without vegetation, I assume it's grain that they had to buy. So, you know, these are starving cattle. And so that what. That's what makes this really alarming for neighbors. They said that the cabin had either the people had been taken or they had left very quickly. There's half eaten food and mugs of coffee on the table still. Okay. There's pots and pans that are on the stove, like they had been cooking. Utensils are scattered all over the floor. There are insects everywhere. There's clothing all over the place. Furniture's overturned, that grocery sign has been pulled down. And this is bad news, I think, for this family in this remote area when you're surrounded by hostility all over the place.

[Paul Holes]

Yeah. So, you know, the disruption to the inside, that's where I'm wondering, is this a result of ransacking? Somebody's in there looking for something. Was there, was there combat? Was there a fight? You know, some of that attributed to, you know, maybe the. The family resisting, being abducted. If that's what happened with the cattle being unfed for several days once the discoverers get there. I mean, the trail is cold at this point, you know, because it happened several days prior.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

And you have to think, I don't know how popular this trail is, but you have to be a good planner to follow along this trail because it could be hundreds of miles before you see one of these, like we talked about way stations, you know, in one of our other stories where, you know, it's predictable. It's like seeing the gas in 10 mile sign up on the highway. So you have to know what you're doing. If there are people coming in and attacking this family, that's really. There are two adult children. I had Mentioned and by adult, I mean 20s, you know, very early 20s. And I don't know who's armed there or not. But like I said, it just didn't seem like it would be a stretch to have even a few people be able to come. And I don't know what the motivation is to take them or if they've been killed and they're buried different places, I guess we don't know yet. I just have to kind of give you some more information.

[Paul Holes]

Well, also with the fan, you know, the family itself, but also the storefront, there needs to be a regular delivery of product, you know, so that's also somebody that is going to be flowing through here, you know, how far away are they from the nearest town? Are they going someplace to get to restock their store or is somebody actually, you know, drive, you know, using a horse drawn wagon to do deliveries?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Well, it says 14 miles east of Independence, but they're a half a mile southeast of Morehead Station in Lubbot County. Okay, so they're half a mile from something that has a name, but where they are doesn't really have a name. It's sort of like Indian territory, quote unquote is what I see. So that's how remote they are. But again, you know, man, open spaces like that, there's almost like where, where are you going to run? But they obviously have been able to build a business. But I will say that this area has really spooked people for a long time along this trail. There have been quite a few people who have gone missing. And I don't mean specifically right in this area, you know, where the cabin is. But it's just been people who have said, I'm going to go on the Osage Trail. We've talked about this before, you know, it is not unusual. It's like going out to sea. It's not unusual to not see a loved one for weeks or even months at a time when they are pushing west and trying to find new territory and everything is brand new and they don't know what's around the corner. So it wouldn't have been unusual for somebody to go missing for a while and then they pop right back up.

[Paul Holes]

Yep, I could see that. And I could also see where this is a built in victim pool, if you will, for people that, you know, whether you want to say they have financial motive, you know, robbers, you know, they'll start picking off people as, as they're going along this trail. Wouldn't be surprised if you have, you know, predators that are sexually assaulting and killing. You know, some of these travelers, predators go to where the prey's at and here you have prey that are just in, in many ways going to be helpless. They might be armed, but everybody was armed. Back back in this day.

[SpinQuest Advertiser]

Forget whatever plans you have this weekend because you're staying at home and playing on Spin Quest. And there's never been a better time to sign up than right now. New users get $30 coin packs for just $10. All the table games you love with hundreds of slot games and real cash Prizes. That's at spinquest.com S P I N.

Q U-E-S-T.com Spinquest is a free to play social casino void where prohibited visits spinquest.com for more details.

[BetterHelp / Quince Advertiser]

When the seasons change, so does your wardrobe and it's the perfect time to invest in pieces that last. And Quint delivers designer level quality without the designer price tag. Quince has all the elevated essentials for fall. Think 100% Mongolian cashmere for $50, premium denim that fits like a dream and luxe outerwear you'll wear year after year. Check out their wool coats. They look designer level but cost a fraction of the price. The best part? Everything with Quint is half the cost of similar brands. By working directly with top artisans and cutting out the middlemen, Quint gives you luxury without the markup. I have a beautiful gray Italian wool classic single breasted coat.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I live in Texas. You wouldn't think I need a coat, but I do and I travel a lot and it keeps me warm. It looks beautiful and it's just so high quality.

[BetterHelp / Quince Advertiser]

Find your fall staples at Quint's right now. Go to quince.com bones to get free shipping on your order and 300165 day returns now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com bones to get free shipping and 365 day returns quince.com bones does.

[LEGO Star Wars Advertiser]

Anything go better than Lego and Star Wars? I don't think so. Kids will love becoming a part of the galactic action while playing out their favorite adventures. Like with Jango Fett Starship. I mean, this Lego set is fantastic. It features a detailed recreation of Jango Fett's starship with four stud shooters, a seismic charge dropping function and wings that rotate with gravity. Plus it has three Jango Fett with two blasters and a jetpack, Young Boba Fett and Llama Su, perfect for endless play. Now for the big fans, there's Jango Fett's Fire Spray class Starship from the old Ultimate Collector series. Packed with details and surprises for fans, this large scale set is perfect for anyone hunting for a mindful building escape. Plus you end up with a fantastic display piece. You can build this while your little ones build the kid set. You'll be like Django and Boba building an adventure shop now for Star wars lego sets on lego.com or in lego retail stores.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Now we have a little bit of a jumpy timeline, but I think you can keep up with me here. Okay, about, I would say a month earlier, this is where they start thinking about the different disappearances and discoveries in this area that could be tied to the missing family. So about a month earlier, there is a wagon found and a starving team of horses, one of which was lame. This wagon had been found about 12 miles north toward Thayer. There were no bodies found, but this was suspicious. People in this area, certainly in the frontier, would not abandon a wagon and certainly perfectly good horses. So they assumed that somebody had been taken. And we're still trying to figure out who owns that wagon. But you know, that was over two years, starting in 71. This was sort of the similar circumstances to what has happened before. So a few days before that wagon was discovered, there are a pair of brothers who are concerned about their missing brother. And they are actually well known. So Colonel Alexander York and his brother Ed York had traced the disappearance of their brother along this trail. He was named Dr. William York. They knew that he had stopped at the house, he had eaten a meal there, he had watered his horse, he bought some provisions, and then he took off and no one had seen or heard from him. And then of course, we can't ask the family. Cause the family's not there either. His brothers and his pregnant wife and his three children are in a neighboring county. And they're very nervous because they don't know what happened. But they do know that, you know, he had ridden away after spotting the loose cattle. The people on the prairie had assembled like a search party that had been led by a guy named Sergeant Leroy Dick, who was a Civil War veteran and he was a township officer, which is about as close as a, you know, to a sheriff as you're gonn. He divided the party into three groups. One group explored the stables of this family. So this would be John and Elvira's stables, kind of where the cattle and the horses would have been. And then another group, patrols spill out and drum creeks on the land. And then a third group, which includes the sergeant Searches the cabin. So you've got these three groups working kind of at the same time. So the group with the cabin reports this. They find a dozen bullet holes that have speckled the roof and the sides of the cabin. So somebody has shot, you know, there are dozens of a dozen bullet holes there. And they find a bloodstained knife with a four inch tapered blade. And it was in the mantle clock. So you know, the clock that's sitting on the mantle and it sounds really, really chaotic. So you've got guns and knives at a minimum here. And wedged behind the grocery counter is a horse bridle. And Ed York, who is the brother of Dr. William York, says that was his brother's horse bridle. Now, I mean, I didn't know that horse bridles could be that distinct. I don't see anything about initials or anything. But Ed York, who happens to be there, says, this is my brother's bridle and it's behind the counter of the grocery.

[Paul Holes]

So Dr. William York, his horse bridle is actually found somewhat hidden inside of this cabin. Like somebody's trying to tuck it away.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yep. And then you've got the bloody knife that's inside the mantle clock. And then you've got bullet holes, a dozen bullet holes in the roof and the sides of the cabin. And then here's where things get kind of graphic to me. There's a batter that pervades the room. And the searchers, Sergeant Dick says it's really particularly coming from a trapdoor, which is concealed by a straw mattress. Trapdoor is not unusual, of course, especially in the, you know, it would be for the Midwest in the 1800s and people would store stuff down there, blah, blah. You know, this is not anything odd. So they move the mattress and the search party pries open the door. And this is a awful stench that they all recognize is death. The joists beneath the trapdoor are stained with what appears to be blood. The door reveals a small cellar room. It is 6ft deep, 7ft square to the top and 3ft square at the bottom. I don't even know what math that is. That's enough for a body, right? The 6ft part for sure.

[Paul Holes]

Oh, yeah. No, for multiple bodies.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

So without ventilation, they can't. I mean, nobody's going in that cellar because it's disgusting and smelly. It's too strong and they're vomiting. So they set up a pulley system and they place the cabin on log rollers and tie it to a horse and pull the structure aside. I mean, ingenuity. It's like the. It's like the cop with the magnets on a string try to fish out a weapon in a river.

[Paul Holes]

Yeah, it's like the FBI collected the unawadimer's cabin.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I mean, so they shove this little cabin to the side using these horses. Even with the breeze, the rancid air leads two men to vomit. And, you know, I know you've dealt with a lot of dead bodies and a lot of different, you know, stages of decomposition. My first real, real experience was when I went to the quote, unquote, body farm at Texas State University to, you know, interview the head of the forensic anthropology program there. And he took me to the outside where the bodies were buried and doing research. And he said, you know, I know this is weird, but it's like, we solve crimes here. You know, we teach people forensics here. And there were students testing the temperature of the bodies based on how deep they were buried. There were bodies that had cages on them because the people had requested that. They didn't want, you know, vultures or deer or anybody to have access except for the bugs and stuff. And they were building a small house in which they were gonna put a body in to show a law enforcement agency, a federal one. I can't remember who it was, the FBI or who it was, what it would be like if you burned down a house with a body inside. And so they were doing real work. But, you know, it was 103 degrees and I was walking around and even exposed, it was so distinctive, I couldn't even. He said, oh, you're gonna get used to it. I did not get used to it, I can tell you that. But, you know, it was a good learning experience. But it is a distinctive smell, especially when there's decomposition there, you know.

[Paul Holes]

No, it definitely is. I mean, it's something that I immediately recognize. And I've been on scenes that are really, really bad in terms of the decomp and the circumstances or even at the morgue. You know, we. I would say the worst. And I'm not going to get. I mean, it's not graphic, it's just that we had to exhume up a homicide victim that had been found floating in the Sacramento river delta. And his head and hands had been cut off, and he had been weighed down in the water, but he was literally bobbing at the surface. And he had been buried, I don't know, for ten plus years at least. And his body was buried below the water table in the ground. And so he continued to soak in water while he was in the ground. So he was exhumed. And I remember driving to work that morning and I was blocks away from where my office was, which was just above the morgue. And I could start smelling him that far away. Oh, my gosh, it was, and it was, it was powerful. You know. Now, I mean, the smell is, is something that you just, I mean, you get used to. You have to deal with it. You know, I, I always laugh if you watch Silence of the Lambs and you have Jodie Foster, Clarice Starling going into where there's this, you know, body that they've recovered and her and her, you know, co workers are putting, you know, Vicks vapor rub underneath her nostrils. And I was like, oh, no, no.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

It'S not going to do it.

[Paul Holes]

You. And quite frankly, you'll be ridiculed. You're showing weakness. There's a certain aspect where you just have to suck it up and deal.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

You know, I'm going to tell you what you could expect, which is clotted blood stains in the cellar floor. And there's a narrow passageway that leads under where the house had been into the backyard vegetable garden and apple orchard. So, you know, you've got these places where bodies can be. They had, you know, had this awful smell, but no bodies when they pulled out the house. But they, you know, now see this passageway that goes to the orchard and the vegetable garden. So now are we. I mean, where do you stand with this? It's a big mystery and you probably don't even have enough information, but you've got a missing family, a wagon that's been abandoned a month earlier. There's all kinds of pieces. You see, this is why our Halloween. This is what our Halloween special gets us into.

[Paul Holes]

Well, I think that, you know, first, just from the, the crime scene of the house, you've got these, you know, 20 bullet holes in the roof and the side of, of of the cabin. You know, I'm kind of curious, are those bullet holes all being shot from within the cabin going out? Are they being shot from outside the cabin going in? Or do you have a combination of both? Like maybe you have a gunfight going on with offenders on the outside of the cabin and you have the family trying to ward them off, but obviously they have at least a dead body that some of the blood and who knows if there's decal fluid soaks down from, let's say the trapdoor area onto the joists. And then that body was in this little cellar room. For a period of time, decomposed 103 degrees outside, very warm area. So probably started to bloat and give off the decomp smell fairly quickly. And then somebody came back and moved that body, you know, so that what they're smelling is the remnants, you know, the decomposing, you know, fluids that are still in the cellar room, but the body isn't there. And now why would somebody feel compelled to do that? So that's, you know, one of the questions. And then the other thing is, is this connection to the, the missing Dr. William York and the horse bridle. So that would suggest that there is a connection between those two cases also.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Kind of once we get deeper into this, I don't think anybody would be surprised about a trap door. I certainly don't think anybody would be surprised about a passageway leading from, you know, the basement area, storage area, to an orchard or a garden. Because that's just the way these were built in some ways. You know, obviously it's an easy passage where you can kind of just shove, you know, food down and you're not holding things all over the place. These were practical people, so. And you know, they were raising animals and farming and all of that kind of stuff. So don't be suspicious of that if you were in any way.

[Paul Holes]

No, not at all.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

So Ed York is, I mean, this is so unfortunate. He's searching for his brother and they go over to the apple orchard. We've had stories about, you know, things happening in apple orchards before. And he has a metal wagon rod and he's probing the earth and it hits something just a few feet below the surface. There's a body. And it does turn out to be Dr. William York, who's buried in this orchard. And I mean, how awful for his brother to find him there. Here's the condition. Dr. York was buried face down. He was only wearing his underwear. The back of his head was smashed in. His throat had been slashed ear to ear. And when the search party exhumes the body, he sees what he says is clearly, you know, a death by blunt force trauma. Although my guess is that the slashing from ear to ear could have just as easily done it. The investigator finds some hammers and they are beneath the cabin stove. And I wanted you to see the hammers. So there's a shoe hammer. Had never seen one three inch claw hammer. I've seen one. And a handmade five and a half pound sledgehammer hammer. Sounds petrifying.

[Paul Holes]

I'm looking at it. So I'm. What I'M looking at is what appears to be a glass display cabinet. So I'm assuming this is like in a museum somewhere. And then you have these three hammers that are inside a blue box, and they're, they're mounted in this blue box. And you know, these hammers, you know, I'd say there's a small, medium and large one. You know, you see the, on the left hand side, you see a small hammer with a very, you know, narrow face and short claws. And then on the right side, you see a medium sized hammer that has a very large face and then just a single claw, if you will. And then in between those two hammers is one, I'm going to say as large, which is a, you know, short handled sledgehammer. And all three of these weapons are capable of inflicting pretty significant damage to a person with, of course, the sledgehammer being able to inflict the most damage just due to its sheer size and weight.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I went down a pretty weird rabbit hole thinking about these three hammers and what were the. I mean, I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks like this, but, like, what would inflict the most damage versus what's the easiest to use and conceal? You know, is it like the small pointy hammer which could really pierce, or is it the blunt of this sledgehammer? And then I said, Halloween needs to be over with sooner rather than later for me. Thinking bad thoughts here.

[Paul Holes]

No, but, you know, let's say on Dr. York's skull, you know, if these hammers had been used, there's some distinctive features of each of these hammers. So you might, let's say all three had been used on, on the back of his head, but there's also blows on other parts of his head. You might be able to tie select wounds and skull fractures to each of these hammers.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Well, from your mouth to someone's ear. That's what they did. So there was a round wound on the back of Dr. York's head, and they said it matched perfectly to the shoe hammer.

[Paul Holes]

Okay.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Which was the medium one that you had mentioned. So as a very round head, the search party loads Dr. York into a coffin, then puts him on the wagon. And the searchers are talking. And this is where the experience that you and I have talked about over and over again, people who know the area, and especially people who know the history of the area, who have been there a long time, you know, like the case of the serial killer who was caught because someone in Canada recognized, you know, a Crime that sounded very similar to what happened in, I think it was Vermont. You know, this one guy made the connection, a judge made the connection. And so that's kind of what happens here. So the search party is standing around and one of them says, okay, this reminds me of the wagon that no one believes is some innocent wagon with perfectly good horses that has been abandoned. But they said, this is even weirder. So in May of 1871, so this is two years earlier, two little boys discover the body of a guy named William Jones in Drum Creek, which is around this property. And they said that there were distinctive wagon wheel tracks that had been found near the body. One of the back wheels was, they said, dished the wrong way. And then they concluded why, which is that it had been carrying a load that was way too heavy and the load had been shifted and it kind of twisted the wheel. Again, historical context, that's not something I would have thought of. And so they said they've got this distinctive track. We know exactly what caused it, but no luck. They couldn't find who it was. Again, they're on this remote trail in the middle of nowhere. Then we've got about, let's say, seven months later, no longer than that, February of 1872, after the snow thawed around Drum Creek, where William Jones was found, the body of a guy named John Phelps was found. But they weren't getting a ton of forensic, if you could even call it that information because wild hogs had mutilated his remains. So it was difficult to figure out the cause of death. But I guess it could have been suicide or starvation. They didn't know. But his father, of course, was convinced that he was murdered. But no one's connecting it to the cabin. They're just. These are people who are found on. These two guys were found on the property. So, so far, now, what do you think? Now we're talking about, you know, Dr. York, and then you're talking about William Jones, you know, in Drum Creek, which is very close by. And then you've got this guy, John Phipps. But they're spread out. They're years apart.

[Paul Holes]

And this is just where. What is. What is the. I guess the typical pattern of crime or deaths in this particular area, you know, so. Because that's critical for an investigator to go. Okay, hold on. I remember these cases from two years ago, but I imagine in the Wild west or in this period of time, there's probably a lot of accidental deaths. There's exposure deaths. Somebody's out there working in the field and isn't hydrating and ends up dying. So it's hard to say that there's anything conclusive about these two bodies, William Jones and John Phelps, to say that it's related. I think William Jones is interesting just from the what appears to be the presence of a wagon that they're convinced is somehow related to his death. And you fast forward two years and then you have Dr. William York, and then you have the family, Elvira John and their two adult children who are just missing. And then Dr. York is found literally buried on their property.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah.

[Paul Holes]

So I think it's possible that you have, and I'm just going to use the term predator very loosely. I'm not, I'm not connotating that I'm dealing with a sexually motivated predator, but I think it suggests that you have somebody who is preying on people in this area over the course of several years, potentially. And then what is that person's motive? You know, Dr. William York has found it just in his underwear. Well, is that because there's a sexual aspect to this, or is that because the offender needed a change of clothes for one reason or another and took those or utilized. Now, I was going to say, you know, is this a way to further control Dr. York by rendering him in essence, naked outside of his underwear? I think that's less likely. I think the offender possibly just needed his clothes maybe to dress up in something else than what he'd been seen in previously. But even though it's a male victim, it doesn't eliminate the possibility that there's a sexual motive. So right now I think I'm wide open. I just think it does sound like somebody is preying on people in this area and they took over the commandeer to the cabin. Seems like they had Dr. York with them them when they did commandeer that cabin. And chances are the family is dead and buried either in the same apple orchard or somewhere else.

[BetterHelp / Quince Advertiser]

When the seasons change, so does your wardrobe. And it's the perfect time to invest.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

In pieces that last.

[BetterHelp / Quince Advertiser]

And Quince delivers designer level quality without the designer price tag. Quince has all the elevated essentials for fall. Think 100% Mongolian cashmere for $50. Premium denim that fits like a dream. And luxe outerwear you'll we wear year after year. Check out their wool coats. They look designer level but cost a fraction of the price. The best part, everything with Quince is half the cost of similar brands. By working directly with top artisans and cutting out the middlemen, Quince gives you luxury without the markup I have a beautiful gray Italian wool classic single breasted coat.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I live in Texas. You wouldn't think I need a coat, but I do and I travel a lot and it keeps me warm. It looks beautiful and it's just so high quality.

[BetterHelp / Quince Advertiser]

Find your fall staples at Quince right now. Go to quince.com bones to get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com bones to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com bones when you say Lego Star.

[LEGO Star Wars Advertiser]

Wars, the first thing you think of is imagination or action. Or both. Definitely both. Like with Jango Fett's Starship. I mean with stud blasters, seismic charges and three minifigures, your kid is gonna be creating stories until the Banthas come home. And for yourself, there's the Jango Fett's Firespray class Starship LEGO set from the Ultimate Collector series. Enjoy some Jedi Master level mindfulness during your building time. Shop now for Star Wars LEGO set sets on lego.com or in Lego retail stores.

[Mint Mobile Advertiser]

Mint is still $15 a month for premium wireless. And if you haven't made the switch yet, here are 15 reasons why you should. One, it's $15 a month. Two, seriously, it's $15 a month. Three, no big contracts. Four, I use it. Five, my mom uses it. Are you playing me off? That's what's happening, right? Okay, give it a try. @mintmobile.com Upfront payment of $45 per three month plan.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

$15 per month equivalent required. New customer offer first three months only. Then full price plan, options available, taxes and fees extra. Cmno.com so I messed up one date. Okay, so and let me just. And it actually I don't think is going to make a difference. But the body count is different. So in May of 1871, that's when they find William Jones. And that's the weird wagon tracks. And that's in Drum Creek. Then In February of 1872, the snow had started to thaw and they found two more unidentified bodies. It just says on the prairie, but they mean off this trail. So in this area enough where they go, okay, they can call this an area. They're all men. Then in December of that same year, you have John Phipps. He was the one who was attacked by the wild Hogs. We don't know his cause of death. I can say the three men. So that is William Jones plus the two Identified men, their bodies were intact. And the same thing that happened to Dr. York happened to them. Heads bashed, probably by a hammer, throat's cut. So now you've got all of these.

[Paul Holes]

Bodies here and their state addressed. Do you have any information as to that?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

No, it's not, they're fully dressed. It's not the same situation. And you know, you've got York, where the house is, where that orchard is, and these people, these other three people are there, but they're not directly, you know, where the cabin is. So we have all of these searchers talking about it. And in the meantime they're also searching the stable. Now we're back in 1873 at the homestead. That's, that's, you know, this family is gone. The wagon and the team of horses are gone in the stable that normally would have been there. I will tell you, it turns out that the wagon that had been abandoned was their wagon, the family's wagon. So John and Elvira's wagon is the one that looked like, you know, it had been totally abandoned. And that was found about a month ago.

[Paul Holes]

So now you're dealing with a month long trail that's gone cold, or a trail of the offenders that's been cold for a month. So they end up interacting, abducting Dr. York, they kill him. And we don't know if he was killed on the property or if he had been killed and transported to this property. And it's possible that he was the one that was put down in the cellar room and that his body was moved out to the orchard and buried. But it's also possible, you know, you could have had one or more of the family members killed and put down there and then their bodies were moved. The fact that you have the decomp smell now, a month later, I can't say that those bodies were down there for any period of time and decomposed and then moved. It's possible they were just put down there and then maybe later, a day later or two, they're moved out and then the fluids from their wounds is what's causing this horrific smell.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah. In the stable they find the family's, one of the family's calves. Well, it's the only thing they find really. And it's dead, starved to death in the pen. So the family, it looks like, has been gone for a solid month from April. And so, you know, again, that matches the wagon. There is soil around that over the last couple of months has been moved. And the men start looking around the prairie where this property is. And they start to see indentations in the earth. But they're scared because it's nighttime and there's a serial killer around here. So the next day, they don't do anything about it. And then the next day they come out and Colonel York, I mean, bless that guy, even though his brother has been found, he says, I'm gonna help. So he comes back out and they find at least seven more victims in shallow graves in that apple orchard. Now comes the weird part. Okay, this was pretty weird all the way up, but this is the weird one. And now this is your criminal profiling part. Some of the victims have been mutilated. Their penises were cut off. One victim is found wedged six feet down in an upright position in a well. Other bodies were dismembered. Then they don't know the number of victims because they aren't able to match, you know, all of these body parts together. But they think it is somewhere between 11 and 20 people on the this property. And if you look at your photo packet, you will see them discovering the graves and just how deep these poor people had to dig.

[Paul Holes]

Yeah, you know, typically when bodies are buried, you usually see the term shallow grave because it's hard to dig down deep. Most offenders think, oh, I'm going to, you know, put them six feet underground. And then when they start doing the digging process, it's a lot of manual labor. They start getting into that hard path, pack dirt, the deeper they get, and it takes a long time and they start panicking and they speed things up or, you know, maybe a witness drives by. So here, obviously, this one photo which appears to be behind the cabin.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Boy, you see how open that is? That's another preview of. Look at that. I mean, there's nothing there. There's nothing out there. So.

[Paul Holes]

But obviously they. They had to dig down. I mean, you have a man standing in this open pit, and, you know, that pit goes up to his elbows, almost chest height. You know, who knows how tall he is? I'm going to assume he's my height, you know, so that's down a ways. You know, that's down four to five feet. And then this other photo, not sure what I'm looking at. So there's a photo which shows a crowd standing in the backdrop. There appears to be a wooden. What I describe as a casket with the crowd.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I think these are bodies that are covered up maybe. I don't think those are holes. I think those are bodies, you know, sorry. About 19th century photos.

[Paul Holes]

So all seven of these the family's not included in these seven bodies.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

They aren't sure because of the. They haven't found heads necessarily. They can't come up with the right figure. You know, they're saying between 11 and 20 because there aren't 11 heads or 20 heads.

[Paul Holes]

Okay.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Some of the stuff is missing. Of course, you know, they could have left it out and animals could have taken. We don't know. There is one unusual part of this, besides, of course, the penises being lopped off on some of these people.

[Paul Holes]

I'll comment on that.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

So this is not the unusual one, but the guy found in the well was so badly mutilated that the cause of his death couldn't be established. But everybody else had died by hammer, and then their throats were cut and they were all robbed. And, you know, these were young husbands and fathers who were looking to establish a homestead. They were looking for property. So there is one victim that doesn't fit this profile, and it's a little girl. It's a child, and she's a daughter of one of the victims. They did not do anything. Whoever did this didn't do anything that could be seen to this girl. So there's no mutilation or anything like that, but there's dirt under her fingernails. So I didn't know if either she was buried alive or maybe it, you know, came when she was being dragged, but I don't know.

[Paul Holes]

Yeah, you know, I'm not sure you can even draw a conclusion. Just I think bearing a dead body, there's. There's a chance that you're going to, you know, have dirt.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah.

[Paul Holes]

Underneath the fingernails. There appears to at least be a financial motive as part of the offender committing these crimes. Now, I'd be interested in seeing the specific types of mutilation to the bodies.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

But.

[Paul Holes]

But penis is being cut off. Now I start going into. Okay, you're dealing with potentially a sexual predator. And this predator's preferred victim are what appear to be adult men. And it's very possible that this type of mutilation and the penises being cut off, it is very reminiscent of a serial killer out of the Los Angeles area, known as Randy Kraft out of Orange county, and who targeted, you know, like, Marines and stuff. And he would typically drug them, but, I mean, he would, you know, cut their penises off, stuff it down their throats, you know, do all sorts of genital mutilation as well as other types of torture. There's a sexual sadistic aspect that's happening, happening now. I'm starting to kind of gravitate towards. You have an offender that is taking advantage of these men that have isolated themselves and we still have the families to deal with somehow taking control. And I don't know how many offenders. This could be more than one person acting in concert. And then the mutilation. Is that torture to get these men to talk about where they're their valuables are or something like that? I mean, that's a possibility. And even the cutting of the penises off could potentially be along those lines. That it's more of an MO Based to accomplish the crime versus a fantasy aspect. It's just that it's really starting to sound like the offender or offenders are going, well, we can make money off of these men. Nobody will ever know where they're at and potentially sexually interact with these men. Kill, kill them the same way, you know, crush their heads in and cut their throat and, you know, stick them in graves.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

But where is this person living? I mean, there's nothing out there except this cabin. What is he doing just sort of waiting behind a hill for days and days to find these people who are wandering down this trail. These aren't locals. These are people who are, you know, wandering through. How would that even work?

[Paul Holes]

I mean, I don't think we can eliminate John Sr. Or John Jr. As being the offender. They could be living in the cabin selling products out of the store and one of them's going out, or both of them are going out and killing men and they're burying them on their own property. You know, right now, I think the family still. The fact that they're missing and haven't been found, I think that that's, that's kind of compelling in terms of. Okay, what is going on with this family?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Well, let me tell you what's going on with this family.

[Paul Holes]

Right, Here it goes.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah. So, you know, this is why I love working with someone who doesn't know about historical cases most of the time. I mean, I was grateful you had heard of the Lind case. What's going on is this family is they're very famous. And I wonder how many of the listeners and viewers had guessed this, you know, partway through. They're very famous because they are called the Bloody Benders. Have you heard of this case before?

[Paul Holes]

No. Benders, Is that their last name?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Uh huh.

[Paul Holes]

Oh, okay.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

John and Elvira. And it's the whole family that does this. And they are some of, in the 1800s, probably the most well known in America, serial killers because of what they did. So the Reason that this area was so creepy is because all of the people around were creeped out by the Benders. And it is a very kind of weird, complicated family. But I'm gonna try to streamline it. Okay. They're from Germany. They settled in this county three years earlier. And so you've got John Sr. And Elvira. They are 55 and 60, and they had very, very thick accents. Now, I've actually heard people describe them as almost guttural, like they didn't actually speak any kind of a language whatsoever. But, you know, we have some great sources that are on the show. Notes that are from books, and actually an author that I interviewed who tried to kind of suss out what was going on with this family. So they've got a son that is 30, John Jr. And Kate, who is 20. We don't know if Kate and John were actually related to John and Elvira. And we don't know if they're related to each other because they seem more like a couple than John and Kate, you know, a brother and sister. And so it all creeps people out. And then when these folks start going missing, then it really gets scary. And then when the Benders go missing, people are scared of, where are the benders? I think at this point, no one feels like they're the ones who are murdered. They feel like they thought maybe the jig was up and they took off. So had you heard of this a family? I mean, the Manson family doesn't count. A family of killers who draw people into their place and kill them with a hammer and drop them down to the trap door, store their bodies, and then drag them to the orchard or different places at night and bury them. I mean, happy Halloween, Paul.

[Paul Holes]

Yeah. No, this one. This. This is a good one. I am familiar with either male female couples that are victimizing or males who have partnered up this family. So John Senior and Elvira are truly a married couple, right? Yeah. Okay. So that would be like some of these male female predators, you know, that have. That are truly in a relationship, and then they go out and kill. And there's various different types of personality aspects to each couple as to, you know, maybe the male's dominant and the female is just following along. And sometimes the female is more involved. And I think there's one couple in Britain, you know, where she really seems to be the one that's driving, you know, the criminal activity. Now, the younger pair, John Jr. And Kate, if they're truly related or not. Even if. Even if they are true siblings, brother, sister, you know, they could be in an incestuous relationship.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yep.

[Paul Holes]

And I would not put that, you know, outside of the realm of possibilities with this family. This, all of, all four of them could be interacting sexually with each other. But, but I've never heard of a foursome like this that I can think of. So that's fascinating to me. And then of course, I'm kind of curious in terms of who's doing what to which victim. That would be part of evaluating the psychology of these offenders. You could see where you could have a woman in distress on the side of a trail and a guy, know, horse drawn wagon pulling over, trying to get, you know, say, do you need help? And then the family ambushes that guy, you know, so it's very easy, you know, for, for, for working in concert to be able to do that. Anyways, I think that's right now. I think that's sort of off the top of my head, some of my thoughts. But there is the financial aspect, but they're deviant, right? Yeah, there, there, there, there is a, A, a pathology going on with this force and there is a sexual aspect to these crimes. I'm absolutely convinced of that.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I'll tell you, you know, Kate is clearly the draw. I mean, provisions are a draw for some of these people, but Kate is the draw. There's a photo of her. It's the very last photo you have. She is described as mesmerizing. She's tall, she's a redhead. She's a clairvoyant.

[Paul Holes]

Okay.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

She has ads in newspapers that say she can cure blindness fits, which are, you know, seizures, basically deafness and all such diseases. And so the theory goes that she would sort of draw these men in and that behind a curtain would hide the two men, you know, the brother or whatever and the father, that they would have hammers. They would beat the guy, drop him down into the floor. Well, beat him to death and then strip him and then drop him under the attic. And then after nightfall would take them to the orchard and bury them. I don't know anything about who mutilated who, but I will tell you, Kate has a pretty awful reputation. She had threatened a lot of people in town with a knife, probably the knife that was hidden in the mantle clock. The men had been known to conceal hammers in their clothes. So, you know, I told you she's a clairvoyant, but also they were Catholic. And the sergeant. I held this from you. Sorry. You know, police do it.

[Paul Holes]

It's called a holdback. Yes.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah. This is My holdback that Sergeant Dick uncovered something hidden. It's a Catholic prayer book, and it was hidden in the cabin. The notes in German were this, quote, big slaughter day, January 8th. And then the phrase hell departed. I don't know what that means. They took off, it looks like in April. Yeah. And see, these are. We don't know when people were murdered. It's just when they were discovered.

[Paul Holes]

Sure.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Who knows when they were murdered?

[Paul Holes]

Yeah.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

So there you go. What do you think of all that?

[Paul Holes]

The idea that, or sort of the. Sort of the generic sequence that the two men, you know, jump the guy, bash his head in, cut the throat, stripped them, and then dumped them down into the cellar. That's all that's happening. I don't buy that at all. You know, obviously there's dismemberment going on. They've got bodies that are missing heads. You got penises being cut off. You know, one or both men are probably getting some sort of having sexual interactions with these male bodies, whether they're dead or alive, who knows? And. And I wouldn't put it outside the possibility that the two women may be participating sexually with. With these victims in some level. So now I guess my question is, is were the Benders ever found?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

No.

[Paul Holes]

You're kidding.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

That's why this is such a well known story for those of us who geek out on 1800s crime. So this is what they do. They track down a partner of theirs who is a German immigrant and had worked with the Benders on getting supplies. And that was about it. He said, I have no idea where they are. They hang this poor guy from a beam until he's unconscious. They wake him up, interrogate him. He denies any, you know, any. Any involvement at all. Hang him again. They just keep going back and it's like waterboarding or something. It was awful. He doesn't know anything about it. What they do. Let me tell you what they do know happened. The family leaves in April. They take the horses in this wagon. I'm presuming the reason they abandoned the wagon. The grocery sign that everybody knew was at that store is in their wagon. So I don't know if they were gonna re establish somewhere else or what they were gonna do, but there was a mention of a lame horse connected to the wagon. I think the horse went lame. They realized that they weren't gonna be able to do anything. They abandoned everything, but they still stuck together, which I thought was interesting. They end up hiking and they go to a place called Cherryvale. And then they caught a train and they went on to Leavenworth, and they are eating breakfast. Last seen confirmed sighting eating breakfast at a hotel in a part of Kansas not far from Leavenworth. And then they split up. And that is it. There have been sightings. There have been people who were arrested and spent jail time, but it turned out it was definitely not them. There was thought that there were two women, an older one and a younger one, who could have been Kate and Elvira, but it just didn't. The timelines didn't match up. They just couldn't. The math wasn't mathing. They couldn't make it work. And so, you know, when John Sr. And Elvira left, it sounds like they went to St. Louis. John Jr. And Kate went south to the Missouri, Kansas and Texas railroad, and they went to Denison, Texas. Right here in Texas. And then they went to the border. The rumor is that John Jr. Died of a stroke shortly after that. So he was in his 30s. You know, two women were put on trial, but the cases were dismissed and there were sightings for the next 20 years. There was a guy in Colorado in 1901 who claims he had married Kate Bender. The next year he's murdered. Seems on brand for her. I mean, and then there's a California woman in 1910 that claims that she is Kate Bender on her deathbed. But again, circumstances. Her family is like, no, she was never in Kansas. We can prove that. I mean, the Benders were there for three years. They started doing this shortly after they arrived in 1870. And then that was it. The crimes fade into Kansas history. That's why you have that case with the three hammers, because it's on display in a museum. There's museums dedicated to this family. So since 2024, the University of Kansas has been formally excavating the site. They're looking for more information because it was never fully excavated.

[Paul Holes]

More bodies.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

They had never found any bodies officially after that. Yeah, I guess they're looking for more bodies, sure. So we'll see. I mean, this is just gonna add to. This is like a Jack the Ripper. That's the lore. And I know maybe a lot of people hadn't heard of it, but this was the scariest family, you know, that I had heard of. And so sometimes I do hear over and over again people claiming I've done a book or I've written an article about, you know, the first serial killer. The Harpe brothers were likely the earliest serial killers. They were in the 1700s, and they were. Were in the American revolutionary Warren Raping and murdering people. But of course, we know there were serial killers working for thousands of years that we don't know about.

[Paul Holes]

Yeah. They were just attributed to being werewolves or vampires. Kind of going into the Halloween thing, right?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yep. It's very spooky, but the idea that you have this kind of collusion with a family and I don't know what the motive was. I mean, we've talked about the sexual component and the weird quote and the clairvoyant. It's maddening when you like crime history to have a family like the Bloody Benders and not understand not just what their motives were, but also where the hell did they go? So it's a Halloween mystery.

[Paul Holes]

Yeah. I'm looking at the photo of the three hammers, and I'm kind of curious to see what else they got out of the Bender house, because I'm looking at these three hammers going, well, you know what the Bender family was. They were touching those.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah.

[Paul Holes]

Hammer handles a fair amount. You know, can we get some good DNA that's representative of one of the. One of the Benders and do genealogy and see if any offspring, any descendants pop up anywhere or do they have any clothing items that the Benders wore out of the. Out of the cabin, you know, that we might be able to go after. Or a hairbrush, you know, what all did they collect?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

We have an item.

[Paul Holes]

Knife. You have the knife. You know, and I'm assuming it's just like the, you know, the. The working end of the hammer as a weapon is going to be mostly coming back to victims. And I imagine that the knife blade is going to be coming back to a victim, but, you know, the handle possibly could. It's just that these things have probably been handled by so many people, you know, before being put into a display case. But I don't know. You know, I'm just trying to of. It kind of galls me that they just disappeared and we know who they are. You know, it's like, well, let's. Let's track them down.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah.

[Paul Holes]

Oh, you're showing me the knife.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Couple of knives that they have in there.

[Paul Holes]

You know, that knife is just showing. Dripped blood on the. On the blade. The handle is looking unstained. I mean, it looks like a smaller light. It's like a paring knife in a way.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah, it's a paring knife.

[Paul Holes]

You know, this isn't something that's. It doesn't look like it was used to stab or cut a throat. It had some blood, you know, drip on it, and you know, most certainly that blood could possibly be. I mean, it could be from one of the benders who got cut.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yep.

[Paul Holes]

You know, in a battle with the, with the. The victims. It could be an unknown victim's bloodstain that today we might be able to identify who that person is.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I mean, I would be down for working on a case like this. That would be amazing. This case is so just, you know, it's mesmerizing for so many people.

[Paul Holes]

It's weird to say that, you know, I kind of. I like to go on the hunt. And this is going on a hunt, right?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah. I mean, this is an enduring mystery, certainly in the Midwest. And people have asked me about the case and I just thought, okay, fine, Leon, just fine. We'll stick Paul on it and see what happens.

[Paul Holes]

Well, I just, you know, you mentioned that, you know, one of the bodies found was a little girl and she hadn't been. I mean, there was no obvious cause of death. She hadn't been mutilated.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Right.

[Paul Holes]

I mean, I think I initially presumed that she was a daughter of one of the adult male victims. Is it possible she's related to the benders?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Well, they identify her as a victim's. Her name was Mary Ann Longcar and her dad was one of the male victims.

[Paul Holes]

One of the male victims. So she just happened to be with dad when they abducted him. You know, as they're excavating this property, I would think that there's a chance that they may have either aborted remains or actual infant bodies that were product of conception between these four people. Because I think they're this type of psychology, this type of pathology. All four of them could be having sex with each other. So who knows? And it's possible that these women, Kate or Elvira had conceived either from John Sr. Or John Jr. Or both and, you know, killed the kids.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Well, with that pole holes, that is less spooky and more disgusting. Thank you though. I appreciate that. But listen, I wanted to give you one of the weirder cases that we have. I'm relieved. I almost kicked myself when I sent you the photo of the case with the hammers because it said. And I thought, oh my God, this. Paul, some kind of weird thing happened.

[Paul Holes]

My eyes just tunnel visioned on the hammers. I didn't even read what it said.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I hated when. When you revealed that you knew the Miranda case, I was thinking, oh, no, I don't want him to know about Miranda. But this is good. I'm glad I got you any.

[Paul Holes]

Anybody involved, you know, anybody who's been through the police academy knows about the Miranda case.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I know. Okay, well, I'm glad I got you with the benders. Okay. Next week. Probably not a murderous family, but I welcome those stories because I do think the dynamic is so interesting. I just would like them caught next time. So I'll work on that for the next case.

[Paul Holes]

All right, sounds good. Thanks once again, Kate.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Thank you, Paul. Happy Halloween. This has been an exactly right production.

[Paul Holes]

For our sources and show notes, go to exactlyrightmedia.com buriedbones sources our senior producer is Alexis Amorosi, research by Alison Trouble and Kate Winkler Dawson.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

[Paul Holes]

Our theme song is by Tom Breyfogel.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac, executive.

[Paul Holes]

Produced by Karen Kilgariff, Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at.

[Paul Holes]

Buried Bones Podcast Kate's most recent book, all that is A Gilded Age Story of Murder and the Race to Decode the Criminal Mind, is available now.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

And Paul's bestselling memoir, My Life Solving America's Cold Cases is also available now.

[Paul Holes]

Listen to Barry bones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast.

[BetterHelp Advertiser]

This is an ad by BetterHelp. We've all had that epic rideshare experience halfway through. You're best friends and they know your aspirations to go find yourself in Portugal. It's human. We're all looking for someone to listen, but not everyone is equipped to help with over a decade of experience. BetterHelp matches you with the right therapist. See why they have a 4.9 rating out of 1.7 million client session reviews. Visit betterhelp.com for 10% off your first month.

[LEGO Star Wars Advertiser]

Does anything go better than Lego and Star Wars? I don't think so. Kids will love becoming a part of the galactic action while playing out their favorite adventures like with Jango Fett Starship. I mean, this Lego set is fantastic. It features a detailed recreation of Jango Fett's starship with four stud shooters, a seismic charge dropping function and wings that rotate with gravity. Plus it has three Jango Fett with two blasters and a jetpack, Young Boba Fett and Llama Sue. Perfect for endless play. Now for the big fans, there's Jango Fett's Firespray class Starship from the Ultimate Collector series. Packed with details and surprises for fans, this large scale set is perfect for anyone hunting for a mindful building escape. Plus you end up with with a fantastic display piece, you can build this while your little ones build the kid set, you'll be like Django and Boba building an adventure shop now for Star wars lego sets on lego.com or in lego retail stores.

[SpinQuest Advertiser]

Get ready to power up your play with Nintendo Switch 2. Power up the visuals with 4K support and a bigger, more vivid screen. Power up the fun with with exclusive new games like Mario Kart World and Donkey Kong bonanza. Nintendo Switch 2 altogether, anytime anywhere games rated E to E10 plus games and systems sold separately. Compatible TV required for 4K display.