Out Cold PT 2

Summary

Buried Bones: "Out Cold PT 2"

Hosts: Kate Winkler Dawson (journalist) & Paul Holes (retired cold case investigator)
Release Date: December 10, 2025
Episode Focus: The Dyatlov Pass Incident – The mysterious 1959 deaths of nine Russian hikers in Siberia

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Overview

In part two of the Buried Bones exploration of the infamous Dyatlov Pass Incident, Kate and Paul meticulously dissect the discoveries, autopsies, and prevailing theories surrounding the deaths of nine Russian students whose fate in the Ural Mountains has spawned decades of speculation. With new evidence, forensic interpretations, and modern investigative logic, they debate explanations ranging from Soviet military involvement to natural disasters—highlighting the limits of what can ever be known. The episode maintains a respectful, inquisitive tone, driven by Kate’s diligent research and Paul’s detective pragmatism.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Recap of Part One and Case Summary

(03:39–04:48)

• Kate reviews the case: A group of Russian students is found dead after establishing a base camp on a Siberian mountain. Four victims had non-fatal injuries and died from exposure.
• Paul summarizes: Two found by a campfire, two farther from camp, all with injuries but ultimately killed by the harsh environment rather than wounds.

2. The Search Continues: Discovery of More Victims

(06:57–11:21)

• The body of Rustem (Rhus teak) is found, displaying severe bruising and signs of exposure but no fatal injuries.
  • "His watch is 8:45." – Kate (09:00)
• Paul interprets postmortem signs (clenched hands, frostbite, ice under body) as evidence of the victim’s struggle to survive.
  • "He’s falling, his body's still warm, it's melting the snow...then his body goes cold and...that melted snow just turns to ice." – Paul (08:12)

3. The Manzi Indigenous Theory & Prejudice

(11:21–15:38)

• Locals suspect the local Manzi people, fueled by prejudice and myth about sacred lands or ritual murder. Both hosts dismiss this as unfounded.
  • "This doesn’t sound anything like the Manzi...That’s laughable as far as I’m concerned." – Paul (12:18)

4. Reports of Mysterious Lights & Possible Military Involvement

(14:32–17:12)

• Multiple witnesses (including Manzi) saw inexplicable lights—described as large fireballs or rings with tails—which leads to speculation about military weapons or secret experiments.
  • "Could that be a reason why...the Soviets were playing with [secret technology]...?" – Paul (15:38)
• Paul references modern terminology: "UAPs" (Unidentified Aerial Phenomena). He muses on overlap between conspiracy and plausible military activity.

5. Discovery of the Remaining Four Hikers

(19:56–26:36)

• In May, a Mansi shaman finds a den containing clothing scraps and a trail to the remaining four bodies—buried 8–10 feet under snow in a creek bed.
  • "They find clothing...scraps...and the right leg of black cotton sweatpants..." – Kate (19:56)
• The hosts analyze the constructed snow den, hypothesizing on survival strategies versus forced movement.

6. Autopsy Results: Unexplained & Violent Injuries

(26:36–41:17)

• Detailed descriptions of the final victims' clothing, positions, decomposition, and severe blunt force injuries:
  • Luda: Crushed chest, missing soft tissue, massive internal injury.
  • Kolya: Multiple skull fractures.
  • Sasha Z: Crushed ribs, scapula; internal hemorrhaging.
  • Sasha K: Less physical trauma, died from exposure.
  • "Her chest is crushed...like something you’d see in a high speed car accident." – Kate (41:17)
  • "Those injuries would suggest...she's being stomped. She's being kicked." – Paul (42:04)

7. Clothing Swaps & Time of Death

(29:59–32:30)

• Observations of clothing exchanged among victims, with watches stopping at different times. Theories about order/sequencing of death remain inconclusive.
  • Paul questions the forensic value of watch times, noting they're likely just when wound watches ran down.

8. Radiation Found on Victims’ Clothing

(48:32–51:24)

• Forensic analysis detects unusually high levels of radiation on a few garments—so persistent the testing was "bizarre" to Paul.
  • "I've never had a case...where the pathologist was going, well, we better check for radioactive material." – Paul (49:38)
  • Speculation that these hikers stumbled into a zone of military testing or radioactive secret experiments.

9. Prevailing Theories & Official Closure

(51:27–63:53)

• Theories discussed include avalanche, military intervention, missile tests, the Manzi, KGB, CIA, even Yeti and alien abduction.
• Families (and Paul) lean toward accidental or intentional exposure to secret Soviet military operations. Other points:

  • Soviet documents and journals were classified for decades.

  • Metallic missile fragments were later found at the site.

  • "My sense is...probably more than one offender...This just doesn't pass muster." – Paul (60:57)

  • "I think I agree with the families. This is what it seems like from my perspective." – Paul (55:26)

10. The Avalanche (Slab Avalanche) Theory

(57:49–62:52)

• The recent official Russian explanation is a "slab avalanche," where a layer of snow slides and forces the hikers’ flight.
• Kate and Paul are skeptical, citing absent physical signs of an avalanche; familial and indigenous witnesses confirm such events are unheard of in the region.
  • "Technically, yes, it could have happened. Did it happen? There’s no proof." – Kate (59:19)
  • "I’m skeptical about the avalanche theory... I want to see more. It just seems..." – Paul (62:52)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On the mystery's frustration:

  • "This is your baffling. This is the most baffling case I think we've had ever." – Kate (46:18)
  • "I'm not sure how much flexing I did on this one. The Russians did it." – Paul, on his detective ‘muscle’ (65:36)

• On the role of Soviet secrecy:

  • "I have to go back to the government classifying this case ... suggesting something more nefarious than a natural accident." – Paul (62:52)

• On the nature of the investigation:

  • "I'd have to roll up my sleeves and really dig into it before I maybe got confidence about one theory over another." – Paul (63:53)

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Timeline of Key Segments

• 03:39–04:48 – Recap & setup of case details
• 06:57–11:21 – Discovery of the fifth hiker and his condition
• 11:21–15:38 – Discussion on prejudice, Manzi theory, and wild early theories
• 19:56–26:36 – May snowmelt, discovery of the den and last four bodies
• 26:36–41:17 – Autopsies: specifics of injuries and survivor strategies
• 48:32–51:24 – Revelation of radiation on clothes
• 51:27–63:53 – Theorizing: military, missile, and avalanche hypotheses
• 57:49–62:52 – Avalanche theory, government response, family and expert skepticism
• 63:53–66:16 – Hosts reflect on open-ended mystery

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Conclusion: The Unending Enigma

Kate and Paul leave the episode unresolved, echoing the ongoing mystery that wraps the Dyatlov Pass incident. Paul inclines toward an explanation involving Soviet activity, while acknowledging the incomplete, frustrating nature of the evidence. The episode stands as a testament to the enduring pull of historical mysteries—and the limits of even the sharpest modern investigative minds.

"With some simple explanations to fill in the blank, we might both go, oh, okay. This thing might make sense here, but with missing pieces of information, it makes it so much more difficult." – Kate (63:53)

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Additional Notes

• Visuals: Listeners are encouraged to reference supporting images, diagrams, and evidence on Instagram @buriedbonespod.
• Next Week: Kate promises a less perplexing, more straightforward case, to Paul’s relief.

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For more: Visit Buried Bones podcast for sources, show notes, and further reading.

Transcript

[Narrator/Host (Ad and Promo Voice)]

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[Kate Winkler Dawson]

It'S.

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[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Dot.

I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who spent the last 25 years writing about true crime.

[Paul Holz]

And I'm Paul Holz, a retired cold case investigator who's worked some of America's most complicated cases and solved them.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Each week I present Paul with one of history's most compelling true crimes.

[Paul Holz]

And I weigh in. Using modern forensic techniques to bring new insights to old mysteries.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining.

[Narrator/Host (Ad and Promo Voice)]

Historical true crime cases through a 21st century lens.

[Paul Holz]

Some are solved and some are cold. Very cold.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

This is buried bones.

Hey, Paul.

[Paul Holz]

Hey, Kate. How are you?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I'm doing well. I had to take a little break. I didn't want to see any vodka. I didn't want to look at snow because this has been a heck of a case for us so far. Do you remember everything we talked about last week? Every detail, including the correct Russian names?

[Paul Holz]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You basically have a team of Russian students that are going out into the middle of nowhere, up in Siberia, in the mountains, at high altitude, it appears they establish a base camp and something happens where now they're being forced away from this tent. And we got to the point to where four of the nine from this team were found and they were found dead. Two were found by a campfire, and they had evidence that they had been beaten, maybe torture. And then you have two others were found even further away up the side of the mountain with similar types injuries. But however, none of the injuries to the four victims were determined to be fatal. And the experts said that all four probably lived through their injuries, but died of exposure out there.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yes, you did an excellent job, I would say, of wrapping that all up. And then we've got five more people and a lot of theories floating out there, starting in 1959 all the way until now, recently. So let's pick it back up with the search. So we know that we found Yuri and Kriva and Igor and Zena. Now we are back to our search. So this is now March 2nd. We found the four bodies on February 26th, and on February 27th. Okay, so about three or four days later, we have another discovery. There is another UPI group, which is the university where a lot of them went. Mansi shaman, you know, the Manzi group was an indigenous group that lived in the area also. And they find another tent that the group had constructed in late January before they went to that barren slope where the big tent was found. So nearby is what's called a labaz. Have you heard of that? I had not, no. So it's a large food storage platform above the ground. So it's a campsite A little more than half a mile away from that is a manzee chum, which is a little temporary dwelling, almost like a teepee. And I have photos of those, if you're interested. In looking at them, but we are not far also from where we find our next victim.

[Paul Holz]

Yeah, I don't know if I need to see the Mansi chum Unless there's actual evidence found in there for me. It's interesting that this tent, they determined was constructed before the other tent. So this is showing the sequence of how they traveled, if you will. And they left a tent in place and then moved on. Okay.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

And it sounds like nearby. I don't think they built this Labaz. I don't know if they were using someone else's. We don't know right now or this chum, but assuming they're reading this from journals. Also the description of the way the group has been traveling.

[Paul Holz]

Sure.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

So the day after the autopsies on the first four were done, they find another one of the hikers. His name is Rhus teak, and he is found on the slope that is just a half a mile from the cedar tree. So he's close to Igor and Zeena, but they did not find him initially when they found Igor and Zeena. Roose Teek is found lying face down, and it looks like he, too, had been trying to get back to the final shelter. So, you know, this is just like a mile from the large tent that had been collapsed and cut. And his head was pointed kind of towards that tent, and it looked like he had been kind of trying to get back to it, is what they say. His head is angled backwards. His left arm is drawn back but straight. His right arm is bent at the elbow. His fingers are clenched and both legs are bent. His body covers an icy patch, indicating that he remained alive for a short while laying in the snow. I don't know. Maybe you can tell me in a second what that means. His watch is 845.

[Paul Holz]

Well, you know, I think there. There really isn't anything that stands out about the. The actual positioning of these bodies. You know, this with what we're seeing with Rustique, and that just sounds like, you know, a position that he could have collapsed into. You know, that the clenched hands that we've seen with several of the victims, this just may be a result of them trying to keep their fingers warm. Right. So it's probably not indicative of any. Any type of fisticuffs that they were involved with at the time of their deaths. So I. I think the, you know, the ice found underneath Rustique, you know, and what they. The conclusion that they are drawing is that he stayed alive for a period of time. Well, he. He's falling. His body's still warm. It's melting the snow that where he's laying. And then, of course, and then his body goes cold and then that melted snow just turns to ice. That's how I'm interpreting that.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yep. And he is the most warmly dressed so far of this whole group of the five people who have been found. So he's got a hat and a jersey on and several different shirts and a cotton sweater. But, you know, I mean, he's still not the way he should be dressed, the way he should be out in this cold. He has socks on, but he has one boot, black felt boot. So here are the injuries that they can see. His head on both sides is badly bruised. Across his face and arms are abrasions and scratches as well as dry blood. The right half of his face and his lips are swollen. His fingers have third and fourth degree frostbite. The skin on his feet is water rotted. His May 8 autopsy shows that he suffered a fall or was hit on the head because his left frontal lobe had been fractured, causing an internal hemorrhage like the other victims. They say none of these injuries would have been fatal. And there is liver mortis on his back even though he was found face down.

[Paul Holz]

Yeah. So just like the other four, he's being beat. It sounds, you know, his state address is entirely consistent with. Probably he's in the process of taking off his heavy, you know, winter gear, you know, and is interrupted. He still has one boot on. It doesn't sound like, you know, whoever did this to these victims didn't allow Rustique to, you know, put a boot on, you know, so it s. That might be indicative that, you know, he had come in from the cold and has taken off his outer garments when being interrupted. Or he, you know, maybe he gets a chance to put. Put a boot on, but then he's marched out into the cold. And it sounds like. But maybe because he's a little bit warmer dressed, he was able to get further towards that original tent. But then he's found after he dies, the lividity sets and he's face up and then he's rolled over for some reason. And it may just be a check. Is this guy alive, you know, or is he dead?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Let's continue on because now we're missing four people and now we're having an investigation kickoff that is going to be prejudiced pretty quickly. Remember I told you about the Manzi people, the indigenous people who were there? I'll tell you about them a little bit. They are semi nomadic reindeer Herders, and they're fisher people. They're indigenous to western Siberia. And of course, because of what I told you about the chum and the food storage space that people knew was Manzi, they're immediately targeted. And there are rumors that they had murdered these hikers because maybe the hikers had trespassed on their sacred land. And there's another theory that the Manzi murdered the hikers for sacrificial use in a ritual. And so this, you know, kind of really gets into some of the wilder theories. But we still have four more people to find.

[Paul Holz]

Yeah. At least with the victims that have been found the way that they were, you know, beat and then die from this exposure. I mean, this doesn't sound anything like the Manzi trying to get people for their rituals. You know, that's. That's laughable as far as I'm concerned. You know, I don't know anything about the. The sacred land aspect, but also it's, you know, what has been happening over time at this location. Is there anything that predates this particular crime in which they can point at and say, well, this is something that we know the Manzi do, you know, And I think from just a pure investigative standpoint, you have to consider the Manzi because, you know, it's. It's really a limited suspect pool out here in the middle of nowhere in Siberia. Yeah. You know, but, you know, right now, I'm. I'm not feeling the Manzi, you know, unless, you know, we find these other four bodies. And there's something about what's happening to these other four bodies that go, oh, okay, let's reconsider what happened.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

And, you know, there's some sort of just practical aspects to crossing the Manzies off the list, one of which is, you know, they don't have any sacred places or stones at this location. And I think what Russians and the locals also think is that they've always been very kind people.

[Narrator/Host (Ad and Promo Voice)]

They've never been known to be violent, and they have been helping with the search.

[Paul Holz]

Yeah.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

You know, they helped guide these people in, to begin with, to this area. And so you have these people who are heavily involved in trying to find the missing hikers. So I. It's prejudice at that point, I think.

[Paul Holz]

Yeah. Potentially. I mean, with any population, you can have, you know, somebody that is, will you say, exceptional criminality.

[Narrator/Host (Ad and Promo Voice)]

Yeah.

[Paul Holz]

You know, no matter how peaceful a part a particular population is, you know, so I think that's something that would have to be considered. I just. I go back to the journals Being classified. If that is factual, why is the government hiding the details within these journals? It just doesn't make sense if, like, let's say, the Manzies are responsible for these homicides or these deaths, if you will.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah, well, hold on to your hat, Paul. The next theory is mysterious lights. Multiple people, including the Manzies, say that there were inexplicable flashes of light in the area around the time the hikers disappeared. So throughout February and March, there are multiple reports from the Russians and from the indigenous people of large rings or balls of fire. And you have to pay attention to this because this could lead to something actually significant. They're enveloped in a white fog some of the time. They're moving and changing in diameter and intensity. And one report described before, hiding behind the horizon, from the center of the ring appeared a star, which gradually increased to the size of the moon. It was wider at the front and narrower at the back with a tail. And there were sparks flying off of it, which I thought was a comet, but I think people knew what comets were in 1959, so it must not have been a comet. But this will play into more plausible theories later on.

[Paul Holz]

You know, it's interesting, from, you know, today, they're referred to as UAPs, unidentified aerial phenomena. You know, and there's been a lot of released military footage of craft that can't be explained. And some of these UAPs have, you know, these mysterious light aspects to them. You know, and of course, it's like, well, is this something that is, you know, secret technology that the United States or, you know, out there in Siberia, the Soviets were playing with, you know, and could that be a reason why, you know, the. This. These students end up going out to where the Soviets are conducting some sort of secret, you know, testing? I wouldn't dismiss that. I mean, the description of this light is kind of fantastic. But I don't know. I kind of. We still just. I think I just have to keep things grounded in the foundation that. Well, we have at this point, five victims that have been beat, they've been forced out of their tent. They die of exposure in addition to the criminal violence. They're not being vaporized by some spacecraft. You know, I. It's. I'll be curious to see how this story unfolds. I've seen enough on in the UAP side that it's like, oh, there might be some credibility there that I used to just dismiss.

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[Kate Winkler Dawson]

So this is what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna tell you about our next scene and then I'm gonna show you a map that shows all of the scenes together, because I'm trying to get a better sense of the distance between, you know, these spots. They don't seem more than a mile to two miles away from each other. And, you know, these are folks that are used to hiking very, very long ways. So we are in a holding pattern for basically all of March and all of April because the snow is so thick that nobody can find anything. So they haven't given up. It's just that they've had to suspend the searches for a while. In May, the snow starts to melt, and on May 5, there is a Mansi shaman and his dog. They see cut branches along the tree line, which form a trail. So they follow it about 165ft, and they find clothing. They find a pair of black cotton pants, and it's missing the right leg, and then the left half of a woman's sweater. And we now have the search team back out from this school. And about 10ft, 10ft below the snow, they find the bed of a den, like a hiker's den, and it's covered with fur and birch branches and scrapes of tattered clothing and the right leg of a black cotton sweatpants and some sweater parts and some trousers. And then 50ft from this den is a spoon. And then there's also a knife sheath. And then they find four more bodies. But this is 10ft of snow. The bodies are found 8ft below the snow and 65ft from where they found this den, where they were pretty certain these four people were staying. The only way they find the bodies is, is they use an avalanche probe. We've seen in variations. In some of these cases, they are punching around, and they hit flesh. And they find the other four. So they find Kolya and then the second woman, Luda, Sasha, and another Sasha. So I think I'm saying Sasha K. And Sasha Z, both men. And they are found laying face down in a stream, a rocky stream, bed of the Lozva River. And then I can tell you about their body positioning and all that other stuff. And then you can look at the map if you want. If this might be a good time for you to also look at the map.

[Paul Holz]

This would be scene diagrams, then.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yes. I find the first one confusing, but the second one, I think, gives you a little bit of a better idea of where everybody is.

[Paul Holz]

Yeah, I definitely was envisioning something very different in terms of how these bodies were located to each other. But fundamentally, this map. Yeah, I Guess I call it a map. It's showing the damaged tent in the upper left hand corner, and then in the lower right hand corner is the creek. And that's where this current four sets of bodies are found. And then in between the tent and those four bodies are the bodies of the other five that lead up to this cedar tree with the broken branches. So that linear pattern, I guess, would make sense in terms of they're being marched in a certain direction, the four bodies. It sounds like those four were able to construct a shelter in the snow and survived for a period of time.

Now, under that scenario, then I would not expect them to, you know, have been beaten and everything else. But you're going to be telling me, you know, what the autopsy results are, right?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I am. And I wanted to look real quick. There's a diagram at the end of that that talks about a wind slab, and I think that that is the den that they're talking about. Or do you think that's something different.

[Paul Holz]

That that makes sense? In essence, it looks like they found a. A ridge in the snow that they may have even, you know, enhanced. And then there's a tent that's put down into this. This gully, if you will. So they're using this snow bank as a wind shelter. So it's just maybe a survivalist skill, you know, that they knew how to enact.

[Narrator/Host (Ad and Promo Voice)]

Yeah.

[Paul Holz]

And, you know, I guess the question is, is, did they. Is this something that was built that they knew about and they headed in that direction after they got forced out of the other tent in their, you know, underwear, basically, or did they construct this after they had been marched out to that original tent?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Well, let me give you the autopsy results and clothing and all that good stuff, and maybe we'll have a better idea. I mean, I don't think that. I think they must have dug this den. And, you know, I don't know what the sequence is just yet. So I had said before, they're laying face down in a stream bed. The men's heads are in the direction of the stream's current. So going with the current. Luda is her name. Luda is laying on a natural ledge. Her mouth is agape, and her head is directed against the current. Water flows over her. All the victims are badly decomposed and all have suffered violent and catastrophic injuries, they say. And then I can give you more information. But the note is, nobody has a penetrating wound anywhere.

[Paul Holz]

If we back up to when this all likely happened back in, you know, end of January, beginning of February, that Creek is not flowing, right? That's solid ground. It's ice. It's snow. So my sense is that those bodies ended up at this location when it was just snow. And then, of course, now, out in May, things are starting to melt. There's now this creek, and those bodies are in the water. I guess I'm curious about the shelter. Did they live in that shelter for some significant period of time before they ended up dead? But with the catastrophic injuries that you're talking about, you know, maybe they got away after the initial abduction, and then somebody tracked them down later and. Sounds like. I don't know what the autopsy results are, but sounds like injured them.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

So let's start with Luda. Let's talk first about what she was wearing. She has a knitted, kind of under helmet, cap, cotton bra. She's in a T shirt, checkered shirt. She's got a sweater, you know, not particularly warmly dressed. One of the sweaters belonged to Creva, who was our, you know, first victim. At the top, on the bottom, she's wearing men's satin briefs, a gray woman's belt with garter bands. Lights, brown cotton stockings, black cotton tights, and cotton pants. And on her feet, she's wearing two pairs of cotton and wool socks. Her left leg is wrapped in a scrap from a wool sweater and a sock. Her tights and pants are both torn, and in some places, her pants are burned. And I was just thinking about the tent. We haven't found pieces of the tent yet. If they cut it themselves to wrap something in. You know, I have not read about the tent, so I don't know what happened to those pieces. Luda. Also, her face is a yellow brown. Extremely disfigured, soft tissues missing. You know, as would be expected, her left cheekbone and other facial skull bones are exposed. Her nasal cartilage is flattened. Her eye sockets are empty. The tissue of her upper lip is missing, exposing her teeth. Her chest is crushed. Her left thigh is bruised, and her hands and feet are gray and purplish in hue, and they have water rot. So is that all decode position, being in the snow for months?

[Paul Holz]

Yeah, there's. There's no question that there's a fair amount of decomposition happening. I wouldn't be surprised if some of this, you know, loss of tissue around the face, the eyes missing. I mean, there could be some animal activity that's. That's occurring, you know, and. And again, I don't know what types of animals are out there. You know, you could even have certain types of birds that May be, you know, feeding on these now exposed bodies with the injuries. You know, her chest is crushed is what you said, you know, that, you know, I'm not sure if that could be, you know, compression as a result of being, you know, buried under, you know, a tremendous amount of snow or if there's something else going on there. But it's just, you know, for me, I think what I want to try to tease out is, well, what exactly is this? The sequence? Their state of dress is just like the other victim state of dress, you know, and we know that they made it out to that what I'm going to call the base camp where all the, you know, the heavy gear is and the skis and everything else. And now these four appear to make it out to this secondary tent location. They're experienced hikers. They've been out there for a period of time. They probably headed towards that when they were afforded the opportunity to knowing that was their best chance to survive for as long as possible.

But the injuries that they have, you know, it's like, okay, how do all nine end up getting beat and then some are let to wander off? You know, it's a very curious set of circumstances.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

It is. And we have a couple of more watches.

[Paul Holz]

Okay.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Which is interesting. That gives us some time. So let me first tell you about Kolya. He and along with one of the Sashas, they're both the best dressed. Lots of clothing on, There's a warm sweater, you know, they've got fur lined jackets on and they're the warmest out of everybody. And I'll tell you about Sasha, one of the Sashas in a minute. He has a fur hat on Koya. Now the clothing is interesting. So remember I told you that Luda was wearing Crevo's sweater, right. And Kolya was wearing the fur hat and coat that belonged to Luda. So he's wearing Luda's clothing. And Luda was wearing something from Crevo, who was at a different location. He has two watches. One was Creva's and it reads 814 and the other one that's his is 839. And remember that Igor's was 531. So you might have to go back to your, you know, a diagram that shows where all the bodies are because it doesn't show AM or pm. But is that sequencing? It must be. Right.

[Paul Holz]

I guess I'm really confused at any type of emphasis being put on the time reflected on these watches. Of course, you think about a watch, there's select circumstances where the watch might reflect a significant event that damaged the watch. And so you know what time that occurred. See, I know nothing about what kinds of watches these are. Right now I'm thinking these are your standard, you know, wind up watches, you know, and, and so these, these times for, to me are only indicating when the watch is no longer running. It doesn't tell me anything about what happened to the victims. Unless there's something else going on with these watches.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

You're right. It's when it runs out. These don't look battery powered to me. These are the windup ones.

[Paul Holz]

You're right. Yeah, I, I, I mean, I think that's maybe a good point is, is that they would be pretty diligent about keeping the watches wound up, but each watch has probably got its own lifespan in terms of how long it's going to, you know, run before you have to wind it up again.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah.

[Paul Holz]

So, yeah, I don't think I can put any weight on what these watches are saying. I just know that, like what you've said is that the, the earlier victim, Igor's watch was at, you know, 531. And then these later watches found are all 839, 814, 845, right?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah, they're all clumped together.

[Paul Holz]

That's, that's interesting. You know, why are those three watches clumped that way? You know, you know, but I think I'd have to evaluate, you know, what kind of damage is being inflicted to these watches that could cause them to stop to indicate that, you know, a significant event happened to them at that particular moment.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Let me tell you about, you know, when the searchers find Kolya. They said their only observations were that his face and his body were greenish gray and his right arm was bruised. All of his extremities were water rotted. But the autopsy, if I skip down to that, says that he died of trauma to the right side of his head. Because his temporal bone is fractured in multiple places, extending to the frontal and sphenoid bones. Some of his skull had penetrated his brain.

[Paul Holz]

Okay. I wouldn't eliminate, let's say I fall onto a rock, but I mean, this tends to indicate that you have a significant blow being inflicted to his head. You know, but he's one of the ones that appear to have survived for some period of time, utilizing this den, living there. Right.

So there, there seems to be, if I'm looking at this, you know, I'm playing around, is there a, is there a chance that there's A different sequence of events than how you've told, you know, how this kind of transpired.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Right.

[Paul Holz]

Because you kind of started with the bodies that were found closest to the, the base camp. And then each time you have bodies that are being found further and further away.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah. You're moving downhill basically down that slope.

[Paul Holz]

Yeah. You know, I'm not sure that that necessarily is the, the right sequence on how these, these victims were killed by the offenders. Even though, though, you know, some of them died due to exposure. You know, I think we know with the base camp just because of all the items that are found at the base camp, they all made it to that location and they would not be going outside without their gear. You know, so that, that does suggest, I think that the base camp is probably the, you know, the origin and then there's this distribution. I don't know know, you know, to be frank, I'm not sure about the sequence, but maybe the way that you've unfolded the findings of the victims may also be the sequence in which these victims were killed. I'm, I'm not convinced just yet though.

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[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Just so that everybody knows, the distance between the big tent and this cedar tree that had broken branches in that little fire area. So that's where we found Zena and the other two men was 1500 meters. So between the base camp and the tree where the first grouping was found, the distance between the tree where the bodies, the other bodies were sort of strewn about and the stream where you've got these three bodies found is 75 meters, much closer. So what would that say if this is a crime? They're driven out 1500 meters away, but the last set of bodies, they have time to dig a den. Or maybe they didn't dig the den and it was there already. I'm just confused about where everybody is sleeping and for how long. But they, you know, then they said based on stomach contents, they were only alive for six to eight hours. Six to eight hours after they left that tent.

[Paul Holz]

Yeah. I think, you know, the. The distance we know based off of the. The impressions leading from the base tent. You know, these victims are. Are being forced out of that tent. They're not leaving that tent voluntarily. And it appears that all the victims are found in this somewhat linear pattern, some closer to that tent, but still, you know, the first one, the closest victim was this Xena. Yep.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Zeena's up first.

[Paul Holz]

Zeena, and then it's Rustique. So, but fundamentally, they're about. And I'm just going to guess because.

This diagram is not to scale, but it looks like Zeena being the closest to the base camp, she's found roughly 750 meters, halfway between the tent and the tree. Then you have another 150 meters, and then you find rustic there, you know, 150 meters. I mean, think about, you know, roughly one and a half lengths of a football field. Okay. And then another 180 meters. And then now you have Igor's body being found again. You. You have, you know, one and a half, maybe almost, you know, closer to two football fields away. So there's some significant distances between where these bodies are found. Then you've got Yuri and Kriva that are found at that, basically at that tree.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

And they're found first, remember Paul? So people are walking over Zeena and Rustique and Igor and they're not found for several days. So it's because they were close to the fire. Is that why Yuri and both Yuri's were found first in Kriva?

[Paul Holz]

It may have just had to do with the terrain, that their bodies were on the surface and the other bodies preceding theirs had been covered by snow due to weather, you know, so. But it doesn't indicate necessarily that Yuri and Kriva were the first ones. But I think what's significant is, is that Yuri and Kriva, as you mentioned, are by the fire. So there's. Did they build the fire or did the abductors build the fire? Don't know. And then you get past them by only 75 meters and then you got the other four that appear to have been, you know, possibly living out of this, this den. So it's that that linear pattern, I think, is. Is interesting. The further they got away from the tent, it appears that there was more time being spent at the locations where these bodies are being found.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah.

[Paul Holz]

And so is it possible that, you know, the first, you know, the ones that are. Are found closer to the tent died or were killed, you know, first, and that these other victims were allowed to live for a longer period of time, though they are, you know, being beaten on? And then why are those victims allowed to live longer? Why are the offenders interacting with them more? Is there anything particular about their victimology that would suggest that they had more and greater importance to the offenders than the other one?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Well, let me tell you the rest of the autopsy results and then about the two Sashas, which might help. So we established that Kolya had trauma to the right side of his head. And we talked about some of the skull had penetrated his brain. So Luda, the woman, her death had been determined to be a result from massive hemorrhage into the right ventricle, multiple bilateral rib fractures, and internal bleeding into the thoracic cavity. The examiner said that the force that he saw was something he would see in somebody who was in a car accident at very high speed. So does that mean she's just been beaten on and died from those injuries? There's nothing in nature that would have happened to her naturally?

[Paul Holz]

No, that's. I would say those injuries would suggest that she is, when you say beaten. Yes, but she's being stomped. She's being kicked. That's what it sounds like to me.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

This is where the Sashas are found. They're holding each other. So Sasha K. Lies curled behind Sasha Z, as though he's trying to keep him warm. Sasha Kay is wearing a velvet undershirt, checkered shirt, a sweater, couple of sweaters and a ski jacket with a torn zipper. And there are burn spots like from the fire previously, and tears on the bottom half of him. He's got a blue satin briefs and some underpants and ski trousers and. And he seems to be pretty warm, too. And some overalls that belonged to Yuri, who was at the first place. So on his right foot he wears cotton socks and burned wool socks. And his left ankle is bandaged in gauze. So that is Sasha K. So he's the one holding Sasha Z. Sasha K. His neck is twisted. His face is yellow gray with purple spots, which we expect. The skin around his eye sockets and eyebrows has been torn off, revealing the bones of his face. His eyeballs are wrinkled and sunken. His nose is flattened. His fingers, everything is bad because of the wetness. Now, let me tell you what they say he died of. His autopsy indicates that low temperatures caused his death. There's no speculation on how his other injuries, particularly the deformation of his thyroid cartilage influenced his death.

[Paul Holz]

Deformation of the thyroid cartilage?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I'm seeing. I'm trying to figure out where that would even be. So the eye sockets and the eyebrows have been torn off, revealing the bones of his face. His eyeballs are wrinkled and sunken deep into his eye sockets. His nose is flattened, and his fingers and feet are putrefied in the wet environment.

[Paul Holz]

Yeah, you know, everything there sounds like, you know, decomposition, maybe some, you know, mild animal activity on the face. Anytime there's damage in the neck area, that's where I'm going. Was there a, possibly a blow to the front of his neck? Was he strangled? It sounds like exposure is what killed Sasha Kay. Right.

[Narrator/Host (Ad and Promo Voice)]

You're right.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

And don't you think that's odd? So far, this is the only person who hasn't had the life beaten out of him. Basically. They don't find any other injuries, and he's holding one of the other people. I'm just saying I don't want to be a conspiracist here, but I think it's weird for some reason.

[Paul Holz]

Yeah. You know, and, you know, the thought has fleetingly gone through my head. You know, could somebody within this group have been responsible for. In essence, this is a murder, suicide, you know, and so if you have somebody that isn't showing, you know, violence being inflicted on them, then you start speculating that maybe that person is responsible for killing the others. It's just that how does one person in this group get this entire group to march out of that tent. I just don't see that happening.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

And they didn't find weapons or anything like that. There's no gun or anything like that.

[Paul Holz]

So I think that, you know, the abductors, they had a level of control over all these victims. All these victims knew as soon as they left that base tent, you know, they could not survive very long at all, yet they were forced out of that tent. So these offenders. And, you know, could one person do this? You know, with nine. Nine students, though, you know, if this, if the one offender has. Has a gun, I mean, it's. It's possible. My sense is, is it's probably more than. Than one offender. The campfire is. Is intriguing, particularly with. You have at least one of the victims of the four that are found in the creek were showing evidence of sooting or burn marks, you know, so that would suggest that they were also at that campfire. You know, did the offenders lose control of those four at the campfire and then had to track them down? There may be some sequence information there.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

This is your baffling. This is the most baffling case I think we've had ever.

[Paul Holz]

You know, and I think it's because of the environment that they're in. Is. Is. Is part of the complexity. You know, I even thought, is it possible the reason the. The abductors, the offenders, are marching the students towards that cedar tree, towards that campfire, is knowing that there was that den out there? Did the offenders actually build that themselves? Is that where they originated out of? You know, and then the four just happened to, you know, play hide and seek with the offenders there for a period of time. Who knows?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Who knows? Let's get back to the person being held in this embrace. The other, Sasha, because that's the final person. So we have all nine people accounted for at this point. Let me tell you his injuries. So Sasha Kay, you know, as we know, didn't have any injuries. Sasha Z is wearing a lot of clothing, you know, one of the top three wearing a lot of clothing. He has a compass on his wrist and, you know, various quilting. He has quilted boots and several different layers. So his face is greenish gray. I think you're gonna say decomp on all of this. There's an open wound on the right side of his skull, exposing a 2 and a half by 3 inch area of the bone. His eyebrows are missing and his eyes are absent from the sockets. His nose is flattened at the base, his chest is crushed, and his limbs have putrefied in the water. Now, the autopsy on Sasha Z. Is. His right ribs and scapula are fractured in multiple places. And like Luda, Sasha died from internal hemorrhaging. So Sasha's been hurt, too. There's only one person out of this whole group who hasn't been injured.

[Paul Holz]

Considering that the one person that doesn't have any significant injury, Sasha K. Is sitting there holding on to Sasha Zach. Now I'm going. Well, is it possible Sasha Kay could have done all of this? I just. I don't see how Sasha Kay could get this entire team to voluntarily walk out of that base camp. That just doesn't make sense to me, because everybody knows no way are we going to survive.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

And it gets a little more complicated, too. So let me tell you about some of the tests they ran. They did toxicology. They ran all kinds of tests, including radiation. The forensic analysis of this group of nine indicates that some of the clothing contained traces of radiation. The brown sweater worn by Luda, the one that belonged to Crea, and there's a belt from another sweater, and the bottom of the part of the trousers worn by Sasha Kay all have traces of radiation. Now, here's the thing. Because Luda and Sasha Kay's bodies were found in running water once all the snow melted months after they died, researchers are saying what the forensic scientists are saying is that the radiation level when the radiation was exposed to these people must have been incredibly high, because running water would have wiped away radioactive contamination from clothing. It doesn't totally eliminate it, but they.

[Narrator/Host (Ad and Promo Voice)]

Said from it still being on their.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Clothing, the radiation had to have been high when they were exposed to it. It.

[Paul Holz]

This is bizarre.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Bizarre. I know.

[Paul Holz]

I've never had a case in which the pathologist was going, well, we better check for radioactive material. Right?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

But you're not. You're not an investigator in the Soviet Union, right? Radiation's everywhere.

[Paul Holz]

There, There. There. There's. There's a reason why this. Why the authorities needed to run this test. They were aware that there was that possibility. Now, now, they're not indicating what type of radioactive material they found, are they? You know, are we talking uranium? Are we talking plutonium? You know, things that you go, oh, that's significant. Are you. There's many other elements that possess, you know, radioactive isotopes, you know, and it could be something that is commonly found in the environment out there, you know, so that would have to be eliminated. And I would imagine, you know, they had a sense of, well, what is the radioactive material that these bodies are found? And it's got to be something that's foreign to that environment if they're looking to see if that's present. And so I think, from my perspective is I'd want to know more about what this radioactive material is and, you know, what kind of sources exist for that type of radioactive material. And is it something, again, going back to the journals being classified, is it something that the Soviets were experimenting with using at the time? Is this an area where the Soviets were doing atomic bomb tests and there's just foreign radioactive material all over the place? So I think that that deepens my suspicion that the offenders in this case probably had some affiliation, whatever the Soviets were doing at this location.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

You're about to get a lot more information about that.

[Paul Holz]

Okay?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I'm not sure we're ever going to get a satisfactory answer, but here's where it comes from. Okay? There are 75 different theories about how they perished. The theories range from avalanches and high winds to the military to the Mansea, the indigenous people attacking them, the paranormal explanations like alien abductions, Yeti. There's Yeti attack, of course, thrown in there. Had the Manzi killed the group because they were on sacred land? Had they gone mad after eating hallucinogenic mushrooms, these hikers, the Manzi would dry out these mushrooms and they would hang them on the trees to dry. Did they find all these mushrooms and eat those? Had the hikers stumbled into a secret zone for testing nuclear weapons? Were they the victims of a military experiment? Had they been incapacitated by poisonous rocket fuel and then staged to look as though they had died of hypothermia? Is it the kgb? I mean, there's. They even blame the CIA, you know, so they were all over the place. So they closed the case in 1959, and the Soviet Union says that they died from a compelling natural force.

[Narrator/Host (Ad and Promo Voice)]

And they blamed the leader, who was Igor.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

So Igor's last name was Dayot Love. They named this part of the mountain after him. They named it Dailuf Pass. But the government ultimately blames Igor for leading them in the wrong direction, where they had intended to go. So they closed this case. But then weird things start to happen. The lead investigator gets transferred to a small town in a completely different country. There's an inspector, another person who's fired when they shouldn't have been. The area becomes off limits to the Mansea hunters and skiers and hikers for years after that. And then, of course, I told you already, all the files and the photographs and the journals, everything is classified. They made it Classified. When they closed this case, it was of course very suspicious. But now there are more theories because they did open up the files in 2009. Okay, so there are investigators even into the 90s who think it was just aliens because of. There were burn marks on the trees also, which I just thought, I guess was gonna be from the fire. But there were odd burn marks around. There was a hiker who didn't go. Remember I told you he got sick. And the hiker's diaries all entered the public domain. So Yuri Yudin, who was one of the hikers who, you know, had to bail out, he published his memoirs and he thinks that the party was killed as the result of military testing. He said it's obviously a Soviet cover up. And to support the theory, he says that and this was something that was covered up also, that the mansi hunters in 1959 and then in 2008 found some strange metallic fragments at the scene. There was also a three foot long piece of metal that was not part of the hiker's equipment. They were the components of a Soviet ballistic missile. And so Yuri, his feeling is that they were hurt or killed by this missile and they were forced to flee at gunpoint or because their injuries were so extreme, potentially. You know, maybe the military came down to see what happened and they either froze to death or were murdered by military operatives. And that is the theory of the families. That's what they think happened. Better than aliens for sure. But that's what they think happened.

[Paul Holz]

I think I lean in that direction, is that.

There was something going on at that location that these students ended up being in the middle of and they weren't supposed to be there. Maybe they witnessed something that they shouldn't have seen. And now you have them being eliminated.

The abductors marching them out of that tent now knew as soon as they got out of that tent that they would not survive. So in some ways, maybe the original intent was just to have all of them die from exposure, just to kind of keep it as sanitary as possible and as unsuspicious as possible. But some of them put up a fight and now they're having to inflict violence and some of them are trying to run away. Maybe the offenders lost some, some control. This seems to make sense with me just from the classified nature. The way the case was was originally closed very quickly back in 1959. You know, authorities wanting to test for radioactive material. That all just seems to add up now. They didn't. They weren't injured because of a ballistic missile. I don't buy that at all. You know, maybe there was a ballistic missile that, that detonated and there were some military personnel that were part of that experiment and then saw the students and go, they can't be seeing this. There's top secret stuff going on here. So I kind of am on board with that theory for sure. I'd be more comfortable if I could better sequence what's going on to try to figure out exactly how the offender, you know, ultimately got all nine of these students, you know, and controlled them and killed them. But, and I'm just uncomfortable with, you know, what I know about this at this point in time. But I think I agree with the families. You know, this is what it seems like from my perspective.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Well, let me tell you, they did launch missiles in this area, but the Soviet government says they didn't land anywhere near that location. Yeah, take that for a grain of salt. Obviously, the case is reopened in 2019, just a few years ago. Of course, it is the Russian government who's opening it. And because there's so much public interest. Okay, so the prosecutor has a theory, and that theory seemed outlandish to the families and they don't believe it. It's about an avalanche, and I'll explain it to you. But before you talk about avalanches, I'll tell you that there were quite a few experts who ran simulations on the prosecutor's theory and it was possible that it happened. But I gotta tell you what the theory is. So you ready for that theory?

[Paul Holz]

Let's hear it.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

The prosecutor says that it was caused, all of this was caused by what's called a slab avalanche. And that is a type of snow avalanche. That is a cohesive layer of, you know, a slab of snow. And it breaks away from the underlying snowpack and slides down a slope as a single unit. And on your little package that I sent you, it talks about, you can see what they mean by the slab coming straight down, because they do seem like they're kind of in a straight down path. Coming straight down and essentially burying all of this initially. We can talk about sequencing in a second. But let me tell you what the rest of what he says. So the families and a lot of other people call BS on this. They said the 30 degree slope of the mountain isn't steep enough for an avalanche to form. There's no evidence that the avalanche degree is anywhere at any of the sites where the bodies were found. There were not any other indicators of an avalanche like broken trees or swept snow fields. The skis and the Tent poles were sticking up in the snow, and the Manzies had never even heard of an avalanche in the region. And the prosecutor refutes that, and these experts put together simulations. But there's a big difference between could this have happened? And did it happen? So they say, technically, yes, it could have happened. Did it happen? There's no proof. And the Manzies, who have no dog in the fight, say no. We've never even heard of an avalanche happening during that time period. Had you heard of that? A slab avalanche?

[Paul Holz]

You know, I may have. You know, of course, I'm more familiar with these avalanches where you have a whole. This huge snowpack that comes down the side of a mountain. I'm really just not buying that. You know, I've gone back to the, you know, the overall photo of where that base tent was found, you know, where you can see the tent and you see, you know, it looks like 9, 10 pairs of skis sticking vertically up out of the Snow, like by 5ft. It's not like they're buried. They're literally on, you know, they just. Like somebody has just stuck them down there. You know, I did, you know, early on comment about the snow on top of the tent fabric. It looked chunky, like somebody had put that on top. But going back to, you've got that cedar tree where somebody has built a fire. You have two bodies that are there. Then you have the two other body or the four other bodies where it appears that they may have been trying to live out of that den for some period of time. Time. So under the avalanche theory, you know, the first three victims that were closest to the tent, did they succumb to the avalanche? And then the others survived it, but they just didn't have sufficient gear to. To handle the elements. But when you start talking about crushed rib cages and broken scapula, could that have happened in avalanche? Sure. But how long is somebody like that going to survive afterwards? I think I agree with the families. That's just not passing muster from my perspective.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Let me tell you what the prosecutor. I've never heard about sequencing what you and I have been talking about, but this is what he says he believes is the sequence of events that explains where everybody is. Okay, so what he said, that is a slab of snow slid over the tent. This was not part of the avalanche. This was like an initial slab of snow which would have indicated an avalanche. The hikers evacuated the tent. They headed to the safety of the tree line, and they started a fire near the cedar tree. So there were different levels of broken branches. He said that maybe they found it too hard to start a fire with the young tree branches below, so they felt compelled to climb the tree and break off the larger branches, which, you know, they're trying to explain why, like I said, there's different levels of broken branches. He does say that he thought the biting of the flesh from Kriva was Kriva basically going crazy, you know, from frostbite and everything else. But he thinks that the skiers cut off their clothes to stay warm from initially whoever died first. And that's why we end up with all of this switching of clothing. Three tried to return to the tent, who we talked about before on the slope, but became discombobulated and froze to death. He said he blinded two people and led them 90ft downhill from where the tent had been discovered. And he asked them to find their way back. And of course, they couldn't. The remaining four hikers dug out the snow den, but it was hollowed out by the river, and as a result, it collapsed. And this is where the severe blunt force injuries came on the hikers that were found there. And then, of course, you've got scavengers and everything else. Else. And so there. That's why he was saying there was a difference between the times when maybe when people died. So he's trying to sequence it, and that's what the prosecutor says.

[Paul Holz]

I'm skeptical about the avalanche theory. I want to see. See more. It just seems. I think I still have to go back to the government classifying this case, classifying the journals, authorities knowing to look for radiation. There's something along those lines that suggest something more nefarious than a natural accident. I just, I will agree that the totality of the injuries across all the victims, I can't say with confidence. Well, this is definitely homicidal violence. And could much of it be accounted for by, you know, being in an avalanche? Possibly. You know, I. I think I've. I've just got a healthy amount of skepticism on on that as I do on. On everything else on this case. You know, this is one where I'd have to roll up my sleeves and really dig into it before I maybe got confidence about one theory over another.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

It's a. A mystery that, I mean, there are websites built on this story. And I know Allyson had, I think, double the amount of research. We just couldn't get through all of it. I mean, there were loads of other things, and so I had to stick with the things that I thought were the most important. But, yeah, this case is a really big mystery. And we've done some cases where we just kind of say, I don't know what happened. Remember the guy who was found dead between the two haystacks in England and these sort of strange phenomena that could go either way. And I remember, with that guy, how did he get out there to begin with? And it was a long way away from where he was going to school. And so with some simple explanations to fill in the blank, we might both go, oh, okay. This is. Is the thing that might make sense here, but with missing pieces of information, it makes it so much more difficult. So I know how frustrating it would be for forensic scientists and for investigators on anything like this. This is an obsession for a lot of people.

[Paul Holz]

Yeah, yeah. No, I. I can understand. It is a big mystery. It. It's, you know, whether or not there's sufficient documentation to truly get to the bottom of it. I. Who knows? You know, it's just. And to say this is caused by an avalanche. Maybe.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

So do you need vodka now? You don't like vodka? I'm pretty sure you like vodka.

[Paul Holz]

Well, I can drink vodka.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Okay.

[Paul Holz]

All right. Yeah. No, for sure.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

So you could celebrate the end of this flipping case.

[Paul Holz]

That's right.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I don't. We're not going to talk about Russia. I know we're not going to talk about Russia next week. So that's it. I would like a more straightforward case next week.

[Paul Holz]

Week.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Because I don't like unsolved cases. I know you do, but this feels so unsolved to me. But I love throwing them in there. So I'm glad that you were able to flex your investigative muscles on this one especially.

[Paul Holz]

I'm not sure how much flexing I did on this one. The Russians did it. Yeah. You know, it's definitely outside my wheelhouse. But, you know, maybe. Maybe over this Colorado winter, I'll start paying closer to attention to evidence of. And snow and see if I can get greater insight the next time you bring me a Siberian homicide case.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

What if the avalanche is the real color? What if it's Mother Nature?

[Paul Holz]

No.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Is a. She's a real killer out there. So. So, Will. On that note, I will see you next week with a different case.

[Paul Holz]

Awesome. Looking forward to it. Kate.

[Narrator/Host (Ad and Promo Voice)]

This has been an exactly right production.

[Paul Holz]

For our sources and show notes. Go to exactlyrightmedia.com buriedbones sources.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Our senior producer is Alexis Amorosi.

[Paul Holz]

Research by Alison Trouble and Kate Winkler Dawson.

[Narrator/Host (Ad and Promo Voice)]

Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

[Paul Holz]

Our theme song is by Tom Breivogel.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac, executive.

[Paul Holz]

Produced by Karen Kilgariff, Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook.

[Paul Holz]

Buriedbonespod, Kate's most recent book, all that Is A Gilded Age Story of Murder and the Race to Decode the Criminal Mind, is available now and Paul's best.

[Narrator/Host (Ad and Promo Voice)]

Selling memoir, My Life Solving America's Cold.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Cases, is also available now.

[Paul Holz]

Listen to Buried bones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

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