Prime Time Crime PT 1

Summary

Buried Bones – “Prime Time Crime Pt 1”

Hosts: Kate Winkler Dawson & Paul Holes
Date: July 9, 2025
Episode Focus: The 1978 murder of TV star Bob Crane in Scottsdale, Arizona – a deep forensic and historical dive, exploring the case’s complexities, the victim’s controversial life, and the investigative missteps that followed.

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Main Theme

The episode kicks off a two-part exploration of the unsolved murder of Bob Crane, famed star of Hogan’s Heroes. With journalist Kate Winkler Dawson and cold case investigator Paul Holes, the case is re-examined with a modern forensic lens, investigating what went wrong in the original inquiry, the sensational and complicated personal life of the victim, and the pool of possible suspects.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Personal Anecdotes & Setting the Stage

• Birds and Influence: Kate describes a family of birds nesting at her home, segueing into a discussion about habits passed down from parents. Paul reminisces about his father’s influence on his lifelong workout routine.
  • [04:11–07:54] “...starting at like, age 12, I started lifting weights, you know, and that just kind of has stuck with me.” – Paul Holes.

2. 1970s Background & Crime Scene

• Scottsdale, AZ in 1978: Known for affluence, heat, and relative safety, police in the area weren’t seasoned in handling major crimes.
• Victim Introduction: Bob Crane, former star of Hogan’s Heroes, was working a dinner theater run in Scottsdale.
  • [09:49] “We’re going to the 70s and we’re going to Arizona and Scottsdale. And this is a very big case. So it’s a two parter for us.” – Kate.

3. Discovery of the Body [22:24–33:59]

• Victoria Berry’s Discovery: Co-star Victoria Berry finds Bob Crane dead in his apartment after he failed to answer the door. She describes a shocking, bloody scene, with Crane in bed, bludgeoned and tied with an electrical cord.

  • [28:52] “At first I thought it was a girl with long dark hair because all the blood had turned real dark. The whole wall was covered from one end to the other with blood.” – Kate reading Victoria’s account.

• Paul’s Forensic Analysis:

  • Lack of blood smears or sign of struggle suggests Crane was likely killed while sleeping or otherwise incapacitated.
  • Two linear head wounds, likely caused by a blunt object.
  • Blood spatter and patterns suggest minimal post-attack movement.
  • The electrical cord was tied post-mortem, likely to guarantee death.
    • [34:43] “This is a common thing...the offender...doesn’t know if [the victim] is dead or not and is making sure...by applying a ligature.” – Paul.

4. Crime Scene Investigation Flaws [39:20–41:54]

• Police Inexperience:
  • Scottsdale PD lacked a homicide unit, didn’t secure the crime scene, allowed Victoria to remain, and the medical examiner disturbed evidence improperly.
  • [40:13] “...as you started talking about Scottsdale...they may have been in over their head. 1978 Scottsdale PD, it’s possible...medical examiner–why is a pathologist climbing all over this bed? That’s a no-no.” – Paul

5. Key Suspect: John Carpenter [44:36–48:19]

• Phone Calls Raise Suspicion:

  • Within hours of the discovery, a man named John Carpenter (not the director, but a close friend of Crane’s) calls the apartment. He’d been with Crane the previous night, then left for LA. His lack of curiosity when told something had happened raises police suspicion.
  • [46:35] “Do you think that not asking what this incident was...should be alarming? He had just been with this guy 12 hours earlier...” – Kate
  • [47:41] “That would make it suspicious if there was some sort of messaging...that Carpenter should have picked up on.” – Paul

• Timeline Problems:

  • Carpenter’s shifting account of what time he left Crane (initially 1am, later 2:45am) puts him in the likely time of death window.

6. Sex, Videotape, and Motive [50:58–56:03]

• Shocking Discoveries:

  • Police find hundreds of nude photos and videos of Crane having sex with women, some with knowledge, some not. Electronics expert Carpenter had set up the equipment.
  • Possibility of commercial or blackmail motive is raised.
  • [52:00] “Are they producing porn? Is this a business venture?...Is there any type of sexual paraphilia, unusual sex acts that they are filming?” – Paul

• Hauling the Evidence:

  • The sizable cache was surprising given Crane’s short stay in Scottsdale; it’s unclear whether he transported all the material from LA.

7. Additional Suspects

• Wife & Jealous Exes:
  • Crane’s tumultuous marriage and serial infidelity are discussed. A local woman’s jealous ex and her boyfriend (with a similar car to a reported sighting) are noted, but neither emerges as a strong suspect.
• Targeted Attack, Not Robbery:
  • No valuables stolen; only missing item is a tripod, suggesting a focused, personal motive.

8. Forensic Limitations [58:44–61:30]

• Paul cautions:
  • The absence of forced entry isn’t proof the victim knew the killer. Forced entry could have occurred with no external damage (e.g., a push-in or a weapon).
  • [61:15] “So that’s where it’s hard to draw a firm conclusion. Oh, Crane must’ve known the offender and let him in...” – Paul

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Notable Quotes

• On Forensic Crime Scenes:

  • “What Victoria is seeing is spatter, which comes from the blows to his head... to the inexperienced person... that may be overwhelming.” – Paul Holes [30:23]
  • “Climbing all over the bed? That’s a no-no…” – Paul Holes, criticizing the medical examiner [40:13]

• On Crane’s Lifestyle:

  • “Now they say this guy’s a pervert and has got some pretty big issues...” – Kate [56:03]
  • “Are they producing porn? Is this a business venture?” – Paul [52:00]

• On Police Focus & Flawed Inquiry:

  • “The Scottsdale PD does get a little bit of praise for just, for trying to sort through this scene...” – Kate [41:54]
  • “It’s a cluster. None of this should be happening.” – Paul [40:47]

• Episodic Hook:

  • “This case is turning out to be more interesting than what I realized.” – Paul Holes [62:16]

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Important Timestamps

• 04:11–07:54: Personal connections, generational habits
• 09:49–13:00: The 1970s setting, victim profile
• 22:24–29:05: Victoria Berry discovers the body
• 29:05–34:05: Paul’s forensic blood spatter analysis
• 34:05–37:23: Cord tied around Crane’s neck; forensic reconstruction
• 39:20–41:54: Investigation missteps
• 44:36–50:03: John Carpenter’s calls and shifting timeline
• 50:58–56:03: Discovery of sex tapes, implications for motive
• 58:44–61:30: Alternative suspect possibilities, critique of police focus

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Memorable Moments

• Paul’s forensic walkthrough – a play-by-play on interpreting blood patterns and crime scene photos, demystifying what “blood everywhere” actually means in context.
• Kate’s pop culture/generation reflections – relating the emotional impact of learning TV heroes aren’t always as they appear.
• Discussion of the sensational elements – clandestine videotaping, consent, and questions about sexual addiction, especially by today’s standards.

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Overall Tone and Flow

The episode is a spirited and empathetic exchange blending Paul’s insightful crime scene expertise with Kate’s storytelling and journaling instincts. Both probe the assumptions of the original investigation, patiently untangling facts from supposition, and resisting sensationalism in favor of evidence.

The hosts maintain a conversational, friendly tone, occasionally injecting humor and expressing wonder at the period’s attitudes and investigative gaps. The complex, human side of the case—victim flaws, police inexperience, the wild social whirl of the 1970s—remains ever-present.

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To Be Continued…

Part 1 ends with the case at an impasse: John Carpenter is the leading suspect, but other possibilities linger. With the promise of more revelations regarding Bob Crane’s life and legacy—plus further investigation of Carpenter—the hosts tease even deeper mysteries for Part 2.

“Don’t Google anything about Bob Crane.” Kate [62:34]

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For more case documents and images, visit @buriedbonespod on Instagram.

Transcript

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[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I always feel like I have to.

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[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who spent the last 25 years writing about true crime.

[Paul Holes]

And I'm Paul Holes, a retired cold case investigator who's worked some of America's most complicated cases and solved them.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Each week I present Paul with one of history's most compelling true crimes.

[Paul Holes]

And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring new insights to old mysteries.

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Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime cases through a 21st century lens.

[Paul Holes]

Some are solved and some are cold. Very cold.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

This is Buried Bones. Hey, Paul.

[Paul Holes]

Hey, Kate. How are you?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I'm doing well. I have these beautiful little baby birds, and I think I told. Did I tell you about them? These little birds that I have a gardening hat on my porch and a house wren. Decided to go ahead and make a little home there for her four little babies. I have never been that close because they're on the other side of the glass from us, so the kids can see it and everything. It's super cute. And my mom is really into birding. She's not the birder. Like, she goes on and she'll go out on a trek and note things and stuff, but we, you know, my old house has a beautiful backyard and they love sitting back there. And my folks like to watch the birds and everything. So what that made me think was, was there anything that you picked up from either of your parents just as like a. Not a hobby maybe, but I don't know, just something that just carries over into your adulthood and maybe you've kind of passed on to your kids, you know, I would.

[Paul Holes]

The one thing that comes to mind is when I was really young, like, my dad was stationed at Hill Air Force Base and he had an old rusty weight set that was at this, like, duplex house that was on base. And I remember him working out there and then moving that set to the basement when we were in Clinton, Maryland, and my dad was stationed downtown D.C. and, you know, just seeing him work out was something that I just glommed onto. And so starting at like, age 12, I started lifting weights, you know, and that just kind of has stuck with me. That's become just, you know, part of my lifestyle now.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Your dad's not still working out, I assume?

[Paul Holes]

No, you know, he's, he's had his health issues, you Know, he's in his later 70s now and he had a stroke a few years ago that's caused him some physical disabilities. And he's trying to, trying to get back from, you know, that aspect. But he was, you know, up until his later years, he was always involved with some sort of weight training or resistance training. And now he's, you know, having to resort to a different type of workout that helps with his mobility and stuff.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Okay, so the weightlifting. Seeing your dad getting into shape was a big inspiration. And you have kids, you've got what, four kids, is that right?

[Paul Holes]

Yeah, I have four kids.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Are they working out? I think they're in sports too. Well, maybe they were.

[Paul Holes]

So my two older kids were more involved in the athletics aspect, you know, the sports. And my oldest, my daughter, who, you know, grew up sort of like a tomboy type personality, she really glommed onto the working out. My two younger kids have both slowly embraced working out. You know, we were concerned that they weren't getting involved in sports. They weren't very active. But my, my son that's in college, he's routinely working out and he's, you know, got his, his own self motivation to keep going, you know, and, and my daughter is off and on, she's heavy involved with, you know, the musical side, but she's starting to get back into some sort of working out.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Okay. The kids are kind of picking up a little bit of the bird stuff. Hopefully I give them good habits and not bad habits. We'll see.

[Paul Holes]

Well, I mean, that was just such a. I guess you would just say it's almost like a privilege that the bird built a nest right there to where you can watch, you know, the young ones feed and sleep and eat and all of that. You know, I've had nests over time that I'd be able to peek in on the hatchlings and stuff, but I haven't had one built on the other side of a window.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Well, I cleaned it out after I was assured they all left because I couldn't see all of them. And I just thought, oh my gosh, what if I look at this, I'm sure they're gone. And what if I look at this nest and somebody didn't make it, but it was clean as a whistle. And, you know, I had read that there are not very many species of birds or there are not many birds who return to a nest. And so I cleaned it out. I hosed out the hat. I've now lost the hat. It's never gonna. I'm not, I'VE abandoned this hat and any bird that wants to continue to nest there will do it. So.

[Paul Holes]

So this hat is just a permanent fixture out there in your garden area?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

It is. It's right by the window. And the dogs ignore them. So we'll see, we'll see how it goes. But speaking of my childhood, we're going to the 70s for this case.

[Paul Holes]

So you were alive in the 70s?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I was watching Buddy was. I was alive. I was, I was born in 74 and this is in 1978. So I was a young four year old in this. When this case happens. How old were you?

[Paul Holes]

You were at 78. I would have been 10.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

You seem so much mature than me. I think sometimes is why I.

[Paul Holes]

I don't know if that's the case, but.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I have more wrinkles than you do. So I'm not gonna say you look at all older than me because you really don't.

[Paul Holes]

Oh, come on.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

But we're gonna go to the 70s and we're going to Arizona and Scottsdale. And this is a very big case. So it's a two parter for us. You know, with two parters, some people don't like them because they want to hear everything all at once and don't want to wait a week. But some of these cases, I mean, we would go on for four hours for one episode, I, you know, if we didn't do them as two parters and we cut a lot already out of our stuff. So that's why we've got this EPIC 2 parter in a really interesting case. And I think this is right up your alley. So you're going to like it.

[Paul Holes]

All right, well, I'm looking forward to it.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Okay, well, let's set the scene. 1970s. We have a lot of photos. You notice when I emailed you, there's actually two documents worth of photos. I thought you'd be happy about that. I've got scene photos and then I've got some autopsy photos and when we get to those, we'll talk about that. You know, I have seen them floating all over the Internet, some of these different photos, and I am just very aware of putting photos that I think are way too graphic on our posts. So I'll be a little bit more conservative. But for people who are going to be interested in this case, you can certainly hop online and Google and see these. But you're gonna like them, I think. Okay. Late June 1978 in Scottsdale, Arizona. Love Scottsdale. One of my good friends is from there and I used to go over there for Passover, to be with her. And it's so beautiful. I've never been into deserts. I always like the ocean. I've just, I don't know, just the vastness of a desert might scare me. Even though there's a vastness of the ocean. You like deserts or. I know you're a mountain guy, but do you enjoy deserts?

[Paul Holes]

No, I'm not into the desert, you know, I don't find it very visually appealing. And the heat, you know, kills me.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Oh yeah.

[Paul Holes]

Now I've been to Scottsdale, you know, I've been to several conferences early on in my career where we stayed at. I don't remember the names of the resorts but you know, they were resort hotels and it was very nice, you know, and the scenery with. I think it's called the Camel Mountain or Camelback. You know, something that's somewhat humped, you know, this small little hill relative to what I have here in Colorado. But you know, it was somewhat neat to be there, but there was just no way I could deal with the heat.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Oh yeah, and I'm talking about Texas. I'm from Texas. The heat in Arizona was rough. Okay, well, so in 78, as I think it is now, Scottsdale is a wealthy suburb of Phoenix. And you know, it's a really, it's like the sort of oasis of luxury in the Sonoran Desert. Lots of tourists, lots of snowbirds. It's also very hot and we'll see if that comes into play with this case. So on June 29, the temperatures have climbed all the way up to 100 degrees by noon, which that happens here. And I know people say it's a dry heat, but it's, man, it's hot, hot, hot. Entertainment Weekly said, well heeled residents took refuge in their heavily air conditioned villas leaving the wide streets as empty as any southwest ghost town. There you go. That's a description. So it's hot, everybody's inside. Okay, so I'm going to introduce our first person here. Her name is Victoria Berry. She's 28 and she is an actress. She's got a couple of, you know, credits under her belt. She was a Go Go dancer in Starsky and Hutch. Never saw that show. Did you ever see it? Yeah, it's a cop show, right?

[Paul Holes]

You know, I remember watching Starsky and I think you're right, I think they were cops. You know, I, the actors stand out in my head. I don't remember much about that show. Yeah, what was the other one? Oh, the Dukes of Hazzard is the one that comes to mind.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah, yeah. Which doesn't the Dukes of Hazzard. But when I was a kid, I played, we played in my neighborhood. I played Luke Duke. I did not want to play Daisy Duke. I played Luke Duke. And yeah, I love that. But this is the only thing you need to know is that Victoria had kind of a bit role. Okay. So she was a go go dancer, you know, so she's a small time actress. While she's waiting for her big break, she is making a living by acting on the dinner theater circuit to pay the bills. I've never been to a dinner theater, I don't think before, but there's a show running called Beginner's Luck in Scottsdale and it's a part of a bigger tour. So she's there and the theater company has put, you know, everybody up in different places. Mostly it's sort of these short term apartments because they're gonna be there obviously quite a while. She's supposed to spend time with a co actor of hers who's much more famous to the Winfield Apartments in Scottsdale on this day, June 29th. And they're supposed to do a voiceover recording track that is gonna be used in the show. So, you know, we've got an actor. And I will just be straightforward. It is not Victoria who is the victim here, it is the actor. So now think 1970s actor ends up dead.

[Paul Holes]

I know which case this is.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Well, it's sea smarty.

[Paul Holes]

You want me to say who the actor is?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I do, because I'm getting ready to say it if you don't.

[Paul Holes]

This is Bob Crane.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Got it?

[Paul Holes]

Yeah.

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[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I always feel like I have to.

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[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Did you read much about this case?

[Paul Holes]

I know of the case, you know, general circumstances. You know, I, I remember, you know, another show that probably hasn't aged very well, Hogan's Heroes. And he was, you know, kind of the lead actor in that. And so that's how I knew of him. And then I just remember, you know, when I into my career at one point I found out that he had been a victim and it was like what happened? You know, and I've actually talked to some production companies and said, you know, I'd love to dig into some of these higher profile cold cases. Yeah, you know, such as Marilyn Monroe, Natalie Wood, Bob Crane, you know that that's because I want to see the official information that law enforcement has and see if I agree with their conclusions or if there's something more that can be done in each of these cases. And so far, nothing has bit. But Bob Crane is one of those cases that. Yeah, I'd love to know more about it.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Got it. You're about to learn a lot more about it in two different parts. That's what I said when I saw my prep document from Maren. I said, oh, yeah, this is gonna be two parts. This is a big deal. And not because he was a star. So Victoria and Bob are co stars. He's, of course, much bigger than she is as a star. And she arrives. So let's just talk about Bob Crane real quick. As you said, he was the star of the hit series Hogan's Heroes, which is set in a German POW camp during World War II. Yes. Probably doesn't age well. I'm assuming you're right about it. I've never seen one thing. I know the very famous headshot of him, you know, wearing the uniform, and he has this. He's very handsome, and he has this really great smile on his face, but that's it. I don't know. I didn't even know it was set in Germany until I got ready to look at the case.

[Paul Holes]

Yeah. And, you know, you have sort of this ragtag group of POWs that the Germans, that the Nazis have imprisoned at this camp. And so there's a lot of interaction between these POWs and the. The Nazi characters that are running. You know, I remember this like Colonel Klink, you know.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Okay, now I know that name. I got it.

[Paul Holes]

Good. And in terms of aging, well, it's been so long since I've seen it. In terms of how it would portray various sensitivities, I don't know. I do remember as a kid, I enjoyed the show. And of course, Bob Crane, his character was always sort of like one step ahead of the Germans that were in essence, trying to keep him down.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yes. And I assume that any comedy set in a Nazi camp is probably going to age poorly, but listeners might prove me wrong. I don't know. But this was obviously, this was a huge show, and this was really his main thing. That's what he was known for. Go ahead and open your documents. I had asked you via email, please don't look at them. And then I unfortunately had put the name of our victim on one of them. So that's why I was glad that you are so busy that you couldn't even open my email. So there's two Documents. One is called Scene Photos and one is called Bob Crane Photos. So look at that. Just to remind you. He's so handsome. That's how I remember him in every headshot I've ever seen of Hogan's Heroes.

[Paul Holes]

Yep. I mean, that's just like yesterday watching him on the show. So know for sure the show went.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Off the air in the early 70s and he just didn't really recover from that. He never had a big hit after that. And now he's doing this sort of dinner theater, off Broadway type stuff. So it doesn't mean that he's gone downhill necessarily, but his career is not doing particularly well. So he has done this dinner theater where a lot of people recognize his name and he turns out to be a big draw, which is why I think Victoria is happy to be a co star in this. So the relationship, just to get it out of the way between Victoria and Bob is interesting and odd. So she at one point described it as sort of a brother, sister relationship, maybe mentor, mentee. But she also slept with him a couple times. And he's married. Unhappily, it sounds like, but for reasons you will hear about in a little bit. But he's married. And so she's the one that shows up at his door. And I know that you can guess on the other side of the store is some really bad things that happened to Bob Crane.

[Paul Holes]

Sure. Now, is Bob Crane living in Scottsdale, and his wife is also in town.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

He's from la.

[Paul Holes]

Okay.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

She is in la. He's in this sort of rundown apartment in Scottsdale just doing this dinner theater. I'm not sure how long the run is, but. But long enough for them to put him in an apartment.

[Paul Holes]

Okay.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

So I don't think the wife is around necessarily, but you know, their marriage is not a great marriage. And like I said, we'll talk about that in a little bit. Sure. So Victoria knocks on his door on June 29th. He doesn't answer. She says the door is unlocked. So this is part of the victimology stuff. Everybody said he was very security conscious and that this would not have been right. She also notices that nobody's broken the lock, but the door is open. Now, is this a good time for you to look at the exterior? I have a photo on that next page. Page two of the Bob Crane photos. After his photo, it shows you the apartment. I don't know how helpful it is, but there's a security door on the front of the apartment door. It looks like maybe not. I don't know.

[Paul Holes]

Yeah. You know, this apartment, I mean this is just like some little flat roofed single story, looks very tiny type of apartment. There are windows on either side that appear closed. And then the front door to this apartment. Yeah, it's got that security screen on it, you know, so that's a, you know, that's an effective barrier. Nobody's going to be kicking in that security screen. Assuming that, you know, Crane is, is dead inside and the front door is unlocked, you know, it seems like it's possible that. And with Crane's victimology of being security conscious, would he be inside and leave that front door unlocked? Was he expecting somebody, somebody was able to walk right in or did he let somebody in and you know, after the crime, then that person probably leaves through this front door and doesn't have a key to lock things up.

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[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Now I've asked you this before because I think you're going to know. Victoria says, oh shit. And she goes into the, into the apartment. Should she have called the police or the apartment manager or what do you, what would you do? Because if she doesn't go in, if he's alive, he could die in that time period waiting for the police or somebody else, you know.

[Paul Holes]

Well, I think, you know, it's hard to say what she should do because what is she thinking as she's standing outside? What is she observing? Is there anything that's really off putting, you know, versus oh, I wonder what Bob's up to. He's left the door open immediately. You know, there's that, that sense of that intrusion, that intruder, you know, that that is a dangerous situation.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah.

[Paul Holes]

With Victoria, you know, she's seeing anything that's, you know, from outside that is suggesting that there's something bad inside or it's just like, oh, Bob just forgot to lock the door this time.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Well, she's nervous and so she lets herself in and she scans around the apartment. Not a big apartment. She is looking for Bob. She doesn't find anything until she goes to his bedroom. And then she finds this what's described as a bloody nightmarish scene with Bob Crane, who you know is covered in blood and laying in bed. Let me describe what she says and then you need to look at the separate document which is called scene photos. She says, at first I thought it was a girl with long dark hair because all the blood had turned real dark. The whole wall was covered from one end to the other with blood. And I just sort of stood there and I was numb. He was curled up in a fetus position on his side and he had a Cord tied around his neck in a bow. And the reason I wanted to read the description first is because sometimes you and I talk about. Well, they say blood's everywhere. What does that really mean? Well, they say the cord was tight or in a bow. What does that mean? Now you actually have the first witness on the scene who knows him, walks in, gives the media or the police a description. But we have the photos, so it'll be interesting to see the contrast between what she thinks she saw or remembers and what. Actually, we have a lot of photos.

[Paul Holes]

Yeah. So I've opened up the document of scene photos. So I'm seeing Bob Crane laying on his bed. He's on his right side. There's a pillow that's somewhat behind his head. And then the zoomed in photos, you know, I'm seeing the blood pool underneath his head as well as the blood flows that are coming from under his, you know, from where his hair's at. So there's probably significant wounds like lacerations from blows, which now I see in the last photo. There's. He's got at least two linear lacerations that have split the scalp. These would bleed tremendously. And that very well could be the source of the blood flows on his face. And everything that I'm seeing with the blood flows are consistent with the position pretty much as found. You know, it's not showing that there's a lot of movement after he's received these bleeding injuries. And the blood flows are shifting as he's moving. So in all likelihood, he was in this position when at least those two blows were inflicted. Now when you say that, there's blood all over the place.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Okay, I don't see that, do you? I don't see it on the walls.

[Paul Holes]

Well, I can see, you know, the one photo that's an overall photo that shows him laying on the bed and shows the wall behind him, you know, towards the wall that's towards the head of the bed. I am seeing what is likely blood spatter. And so that's, you know, maybe to the inexperienced person who's not used to seeing, you know, a homicide scene, that may be very overwhelming to see a fair amount of blood spatter that is up on the wall. But it's not like this room. Like there's just been this huge battle between two combatants that are bleeding and there's blood smears and furniture overturned. No, you know, this appears that it's very akin to possibly, you know, he was asleep and somebody came in and bludgeoned him. And there's no fight whatsoever. And the, the blood that Victoria is seeing is. Is spatter, which comes from the blows to his head. So when we start talking, you know, blood patterns, blood spatter occurs when there's a pooled blood source. So imagine if you have, let's say, a, a puddle, right, and you stomp in that puddle. Now you can get spatial with Bob Crane's head, he's going to have to have received a blow that would cause blood to pool in a wound. So that first blow does not create spatter. But now that he's bleeding, the second blow and the third blow potentially could produce the spatter that I somewhat seeing on the wall behind him. The pillow behind him is interesting. There's a very large blood stain on that pillow. That pillow has been moved by the time this photo was taken. And let me just at other photos just to see if it shows the pillow in a different position. So that very large blood stain on the pillow suggests that it was closer and possibly had had been up against his head or his head had been on it at one point after he bled. I would need to see more in terms of his injuries and the blood patterns to determine what the final resting position of that pillow was when the offender left the crime scene. But in essence, you know, he's received at least, you know, several blows. I'm seeing, you know, hemorrhaging to his left eye that suggests that, you know, he's got skull fracture, he's got, you know, cerebral hemorrhaging occurring. You know, it's possible orbital fractures. And so now you see the, you know, the extent, obviously this is a fatal bludgeoning. I don't know how many blows at this point or what the weapon is. There is a photo of what appears to be two linear blood deposits. I believe that's on top of the. Yeah, that's on the bed. That's on the edge of the bed with a ruler, suggesting that these linear blood deposits are roughly. One is roughly 8 inches long, the other is possibly 12 inches long. The shape of this linear shape. Shape possibly could be from the weapon. Let's say the weapon is something akin to a baseball bat or a, a wood dowel. And after inflicting the blows, the blood being transferred onto the weapon, it was placed on this bed sheet maybe twice. This linear blood pattern is too indistinct to draw any conclusion as to, well, what is the weapon, if that's even from the weapon. But right now, that would be my, my initial assessment.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Okay, let's talk about the cord, because what they determine is this is an electrical cord that was yanked from a vcr. Bob had a lot of recording equipment throughout, you know, his house in la, but also, you know, at this place in Scottsdale. And it's been tied around his neck. First I guess let's talk about the bow that she's talking about. It's on the back of his neck or the side of his neck. Just what does that hold the cord tell you about any of it? Because they determine that he's got two blows on the side of the head. They have an idea of what the object was, but they also say, of course, you know, there's strangulation.

[Paul Holes]

Yes. And so I am looking at the close up photo of the electrical cord. It's showing Crane's left ear with the blood flows and then this electrical cord, which it's tied from behind, you know, from the backside of his neck. Now, now I don't, in this photo I don't see anything that I would call a bow. This right here is a simple half hitch. Basically, you know, when you first start tying your shoe and you cross the two laces, that's a half hitch. That's all I'm seeing in this photo. Now maybe there's more of the knot that is deeper in the kind of embedded into the tissue of his neck that I can't see from here. But right now it looks like it's just a half hitch and it's been tied tight. The interesting thing that I'm see seeing about this is that if you look at the blood flows coming, you know, past his left ear and those blood flows are running underneath that cord. This is where at the scene I would be looking at that cord because it appears that if that cord is laying down on his, the side of his face where those blood flows are flowing, so it's resting on his skin, those blood flows are uninterrupted. That indicates those blood flows occurred before that cord was possibly applied. That sequencing information.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

So he was beaten first. Okay.

[Paul Holes]

At least with, with what I can see. That is my, what I am interpreting and I'm having to make a certain assumption because I, I don't have a photo that's showing how that cord is actually resting on his skin or not. But this appears from a sequence standpoint what seems to be logical is, is, is Crane is in his bed somehow. Other, you know, just doesn't appear that he is interacting necessarily with an intruder. Like in a fight, he's down on the bed, he receives these blows that are likely fatal and Then the offender, after inflicting those blows, goes and gets the electrical cord. And I've talked about this on other episodes is this is a common thing, is that the offender doesn't know was he dead or not and is making sure he's dead by applying a ligature. So when he walks away, he knows that this ligature is cutting off any possibility of Bob Crane coming back to life.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Now, if you look at that last photo, the autopsy photo that's got, you know, the two marks on the side of his head, you can see where the cord was. Does that tell you anything? Does that look, you see the indentation? Does that look deep to you or does that give you any information based on a photo?

[Paul Holes]

It. Well, you know, when we start talking about this furrow, you know, when, when a ligature is tied around the neck, you know, the tissue, tissue underneath the ligature gets compressed. And so there is a, at this time, after the, the electrical cord or the ligature has been removed, there is an apparent furrow. However, you know, the tissue has kind of expanded. So it's hard to interpret at this point exactly how deep or how tightly that ligature was applied. In the photo I was just looking at, it's not a, you know, from the side of his neck. Neck, it, it doesn't look like it is excessively tight. Now, it very well could be effective for strangulation, but it, I have seen far, far worse in terms of ligatures literally compressing the neck tissues to where, you know, it, it cuts into the tissue around the neck. That's how tight sometimes these ligatures are applied. And this is a narrow, this electrical cord is very narrow. It's just your, your typical power cord, you know, little two, two strand covered copper wire. If it were tied really tight, it would dig into his neck quite a bit. So one of the things I would want to know from autopsy is is there diagnostics present indicating strangulation? You know, does he have petechia in his eyes? You know, does that suggest that his heart is still pumping or is he absent any of the, the diagnostics of strangulation that possibly would suggest that he was already dead? His heart's not pumping when that electrical cord was applied.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Okay, let me look real quick. The medical examiner is a little problematic because it sounds like he climbed over the body to do certain things and it knocked the body around. And the investigation is criticized quite a bit.

[Paul Holes]

Well, let me, let me make a comment on that because, you know, as, as you started talking about Scottsdale and I have some familiarity you know, this is an upper end community. You know, they don't deal with a lot of violent crime. Like maybe, you know, investigators down in Phoenix are dealing with. And I'm assuming this is a Scottsdale PD case, you know, so from that perspective, you know, they may have been in over their head. 1978 Scottsdale PD it's possible. They probably hadn't had a homicide, particularly one like this, for, for many years. And then the other thing is, is the medical exam. You know, he may be a very, very competent pathologist, but is he good at crime scene investigation? Why is a pathologist climbing all over this bed? That's, that's, that's a. No, no, you know, listen to this.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

And it's like you're reading from my prep document from Marin. So obviously Victoria had called the police. Scottsdale comes. They don't have a dedicated homicide unit. Yeah, they don't deal with, with, you know, homicides in this way. And of course, they don't secure the crime scene, which would be the first assumption I would make. They don't know how to do that. Victoria hangs around in the apartment the whole time. You know, they don't boot her out. And the ME as I said, climbs.

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[Kate Winkler Dawson]

So he could look at the injuries right then and there.

[Paul Holes]

Yeah, this is just, it's a cluster. You know, there's none of this should be happening. It doesn't sound like this coroner's or this medical examiner's office have death investigators because typically the sequence is, you know, of course you, you have a homicide, you set up a perimeter. You know, somebody like Victoria absolutely is, is out. She needs to be taken back to the office and interviewed, have a formal interview at that point. But then you have to get a warrant and then there's a success session of. Okay, once you have a warrant, then you get competent csis that are now documenting the scene, you know, as soon as they possibly can get inside without anything being disturbed. And at a certain point, once the scene is documented and transient evidence has been documented and collected, you know, like some trace evidence or let's say impression evidence that could possibly be stepped on by, you know, know the death investigators. But then that's when you get the death investigators out because they have their own role about documenting Bob Crane's body.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

The Scottsdale PD does get a little bit of praise for just, for trying to, to sort through this scene. Nothing's missing, as I had mentioned before. Nothing of value at least, except for this tripod. They don't find any signs of forced entry. The front door was unlocked. And the sliding glass door that leads to this pool, this public pool, are both unlocked, locked. Okay, so Bob was a security freak in the 70s. He locks his doors, which sometimes we didn't lock our doors in the 70s. Definitely not when we were on our farm. So that makes of course investigators think that the killer knew him. Perhaps it was a friend. Of course they're going to look at the young woman who was coming to his house. So, you know, there's a. A lot of possibilities, but this is where they're heading so far. They think that the killer fled through the front door after killing Bob. And I'll tell you why. So there's a reporter named John Hook who I'll mention several times. He ends up writing a book about this. And he says that there were small spots of blood on the inside doorknob and the lock. There's a coroner's report that suggests that he died between 3am and 8am but likely closer to 3am him. Let's get to our first suspect. And it is not Victoria. Victoria is never considered a suspect at all. So around 3:15. So she finds him around 2. She calls the police around 3:15, Victoria is giving the police her statement in the kitchen. She hung out for quite a long time there. I mean, okay, sorry. I'm sure they learned a lesson with that. Although I don't know if she disturbed anything. But still, you know, you're right. All of the blood deposits and everything. She's in the kitchen and the phone rings. His home phone. On a hunch that Bob's killer could be calling to figure out what's going on, there is a police detendant who says, go ahead and answer the phone, but don't say anything about Bob's death. She picks up the phone and the person on the other end is a guy named John Carpenter. Not the horror film director, but a different John Carpenter. So Bob and John are friends and Victoria knows John. And John works in sales for some big electronics companies. So he works for Sony and Kenwood. And he's got some big celebrity clients, including Bob. That's how they met. And I just thought to myself, I did not know that celebrities needed a electronics go to guy. Maybe they do.

[Paul Holes]

Does he have like a hobby where he's got recording equipment in his apartment or something like that? So that's interesting.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yes, he does have a hobby. And I'll tell you about it in a minute. So Victoria and John have a very short conversation and remember the lieutenant says, don't tell him that Bob's dead. And John lets her know that he's back in Los Angeles. So he was in Scottsdale and now he's back in la. And that's important because the night, night that Bob died, he had been hanging out with John Carpenter. So whatever happened, if John's involved, he ended back up in LA very, very quickly. And before you react to that, let me say that the lieutenant takes the phone from Victoria. He says that the police are looking into an incident, quote, unquote, incident that happened at the apartment. And John says that, well, I was out with Bob around 1am later, he'll change that to 2:45 before. He then eventually heads to the airport and he catches his flight back to California. But he doesn't ask what this incident is. This is a good friend of his, he's known for quite a while. And of course the lieutenant thinks that that's pretty odd. So John Carpenter ends up at the top of the list, even though there's a woman who found him, you know, and obviously had access to the apartment and was supposed to go over there, that. We've got the phone ringing in Bob's apartment three more times. One's a female friend, quote, unquote, who is described by the Phoenix New Times as a friend and a girlfriend of Bob's.

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One is his son, who is Bob.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Crane Jr. Who's just calling to check in on his dad. And then John Carpenter calls again, and this time he wants details of this incident at the apartment. Do you think that not asking what this incident was at the apartment is alarming or should be alarming? He had just been with this guy 12 hours earlier by his own admission.

[Paul Holes]

Well, do we have a history of law enforcement responding to Crane's apartment prior to this?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

No, because he hasn't been there very long. Remember, he's just in town for a month or however long this dinner show goes.

[Paul Holes]

You know, I guess. Guess, you know, that's hard to say if it's suspicious or not. Not asking about the incident. Part of that, at least the way I'm thinking about it, is, well, what is the conversation like? H. How is. How is Carpenter hearing Victoria? Is there panic in her voice? Is she crying? You know, how is Lieutenant talking to him? You know, is he assuming maybe it's just a minor thing? Maybe somebody threw a brick through the wind window, you know, or, you know, is there anything with over the phone that you would expect Carpenter to go, oh, something really bad happened, you know, so it's all kind of that interchange is what I would. I'd kind of want to know more about in order to say, oh yeah, he probably should have been victorious crying, you know, why isn't he asking about the incident? You know, why isn't he asking her what's wrong, wrong, you know?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah.

[Paul Holes]

So that would make it suspicious if there was some sort of messaging from Victoria or the lieutenant that Carpenter should have picked up on that something really bad happened to Bob Crane, his good friend.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

You know, I mean, Dean asked him that. Lt. Dean asked Victoria to pretend like everything is okay. So I'm assuming there was no crying or anything. And I don't know what the tone was, but, you know, I'm. I was thinking when I was reading that he was probably sort of mysterious on the phone to see how much is John Carpenter going to pursue this, you know, how curious is this guy.

[Paul Holes]

So I think that Victoria's interaction with Carpenter over the phone kind of lessens why he should think something bad has happened because she's abiding by the orders of the lieutenant. And then it sounds like the lieutenant is not trying to convey the seriousness of the crime to Carpenter. Carpenter. So there's also a, a level of intimidation, right? This is something where, like if you, if you interact with an officer that's in uniform, that uniform has a certain intimidating effect on people. So maybe that you're talking to an officer and the officer says, well, we're investigating an incident and you may not feel that you can ask about the incident just because of this, this person is not divulging it. So therefore he probably doesn't want me to know. And he's got a uniform on here. Carpenter is talking to a lieutenant, you know, from law enforcement who's not divulging the details. And so he possibly goes, I can't ask this authority figure more information due to that sort of that intimidation aspect that I'm referring to. But I think, you know, I want to know so much more about Carpenter, you know, what did he say him and Bob did, you know, for the time that they hung out? Was his flight already prearranged, you know, or was this a last minute thing like he's trying to get out of town? So, you know, there's a lot more information that I need before I start getting suspicious about Carpenter. Right now, I think the biggest suspicion I have is the timing. You know, he's with Bob Crane to 1am changes that 2:45am so he's now right within that window potentially of when Crane was killed. Killed.

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And I wonder why he changed that.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I mean, if he's involved and it really is happening based on the rigor when the. I mean, he thinks it's happening, why make it so that you're closer there, you know?

[Paul Holes]

Well, I, I think either time is within the window. Any time of death estimate from, let's say, rigor mortis or whatever the pathologist is using, that's a rough estimate. So it's possible Bob Crane could have been killed, killed at 1am okay. With Carpenter's initial statement, I also think let's say Carpenter is responsible and he's changing the time as he's sitting and thinking, he's going to go, oh, I was seen at the apartment at this time, and they're going to find that witness. So I better make sure I offer up this new time to account for being seen by this witness, to make it look like I'm not trying to lie and distance myself from the crime scene.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Well, this is when things get real wonky with this case. So they look around, they're trying to find clues, nothing's missing. Then they start digging through some of Bob's files. They find hundreds of nude photos of different women which were taken with his Polaroid. They also find countless home videos of Bob having sex with women which were presumably filmed on cameras that John Carpenter sold him. And we eventually find that out that John was pretty involved with this world. There's a photo of a camera. I mean, if you really want to see it, I can show you, but I mean, it's literally a video camera set up, pointed at the bed. There are many women who consented to being filmed. They went through and tried to find all of these women. And there were others who had no clue that they were being recorded. And of course they want to know, does this have to do with his murder? Do you want to comment on this or do you want me to talk about sort of the possibilities of people who could be pissed off at him for various reasons?

[Paul Holes]

You know, my initial thought is, are they producing porn? You know, is this a business venture? It's like, okay, is there anything unusual in terms of the photography? Is there any type of sexual paraphilia, you know, unusual sex acts that they are filming? You know, does Bob Crane, from a victim cosmology standpoint, is this something that he's been doing for a long time, maybe for his own personal use, if you will? But also now with Carpenter, this relationship that Carpenter has access to a variety of different types of electronics that could be needed in order to produce this pornography. And in 1978. Oh, geez. This is. This is around the era of when the Betamax and the VHS tapes were coming out. I can't remember exactly when they came out, but if you're going to produce something, you need to be able to put this on a medium that you can sell. It's not like you can upload it to the web. So are they seeing anything like that within Crane's apartment or. They most certainly should be doing a search warrant on John Carpenter's residence, you know, wherever that is. It sounds like it's out in la. And. Yeah, you know, where was he staying while he was out in the Phoenix area, etc. Yeah. So there's lots of questions here.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Let me see. I did not think you would want to need to see that camera, but it sounds like that would be helpful. So hopefully you can see this. So you'll see on, you know, the kind of the bottom, the middle, there's.

[Sponsor Announcer]

A lot of equipment.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Oh, and this is in his apartment. This is more than a nanny cam for some pervert who's recording women without them knowing. Knowing. Yeah, but he's in a. He's in a show at the same time, you know, who knows?

[Paul Holes]

Sure. You know, you know, part of. Yeah, his, his professional career is, of course, you know, being in front of the camera, being recorded, you know, audio recording. You know, this is not a small little camera. You know, this I'm looking at a photograph of, you know, a boxy camera on a tripod. The tripod is not very tall and this appears to possibly be at. Out more in the living space. It's not, it doesn't. It's not in the bedroom. It doesn't appear to be.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah, because I think that's a fireplace. Does that look like a fireplace in the background to you?

[Paul Holes]

Yeah. So, you know, is it possible that maybe, you know, they. They practice some of the. The acting skits and record themselves and watch it on the TV to get that sort of that immediate feedback, you know, that is a possibility. So that, you know, he's got video and photos of. Of nude women. Women, some consenting, some not. You know, they're. These videos are being made. These women have no idea they're being filmed. So that would suggest that either they're not recognizing that this camera is actually on or don't even know what it is if they're looking at it, or he's got it hidden and turned on while there's sex acts occurring. You know, it does make me suspicious about the possibility that they're recording these women for commercial purposes.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I was trying to figure out if.

[Sponsor Announcer]

We knew how long he had been.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

In Scottsdale, because 500 videos and photos. Did he drag those all from LA? So what's happening? I mean, maybe he drove, I don't know.

[Paul Holes]

Yeah, possibly, you know, you put all the electronics in the car and move out. But if he's, you know, if he's out in Scottsdale for just a handful of weeks, he's obviously taking advantage of the time that he's out in Scottsdale to continue utilizing the camera and having the materials, all the photos and these videos. So that does seem odd. And of course it's like, well, what does John Carpenter say about all this?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah, let me just say it looks to me like, yes, he was only there for the run. It's not like he had.

[Sponsor Announcer]

I just thought maybe he moved there or something.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

That's a lot of equipment and all of that. And it says it looks likely that he was just there. It could have been even just for a few weeks. We don't know. So let me, let me go through and tell you some other stuff that's going on here. So now they say this guy's a pervert and has got some pretty big issues. And of course, John Carpenter, being his electronics guy, is going to get pulled into this. So they start asking questions about his wife, who is an actress named Patricia Olsen, who goes by Patty. Marriage was on the rocks. She knows all about his serial cheating. She says that the two had actually tried to. In their marriage. They were going to, but. And they had been talking about this, it sounds like, for a while, because he was cheating and she was tired of it. I don't know if she knows about all these photos and videos. I don't know if she's one of the people on these photos or videos. So then she says, and this is where John's involvement could come in. According to the police, she says that they were recently reconciling. They wanted to make the relationship work. That he went into therapy trying to get a handle on what is described in, I think, the newspaper reporting as a sex addiction. I don't even know if they used that phrase in the 70s in therapy maybe. In any case, the police don't consider her a viable suspect. She's not there. And, you know, I'm sure she was shocked about hearing about these 500 photo videos happening. Bob had slept with another suspect, a Scottsdale woman who had a really jealous ex boyfriend at One point, this guy taped a mutilated newspaper photograph of Bob Crane to his ex girlfriend's back door after this guy found out that she was sleeping with Bob Crane. But the man, you know, who's not named by reporters, isn't ever really considered a strong self. There are also reports from a furniture mover who says that police saw a man leaving Bob's apartment that morning, June 29th, and he was found at 2:00 later that day. According to this tipster, the man had left the scene in a white Cadillac with a California license plate. So I will say I'll put this one more thing in here. Victoria, the Victoria, her boyfriend, who she ends up marrying later on is a guy named Alan Walter Wells. He drove a white Cadillac with California plates, although probably in the 70s, you could throw a rock and hit one of those. He was never tied to this. So, I mean, this is, what I'm saying is there's this array of people, plus every woman who, you know, found out that he was a sleazebag, who.

[Paul Holes]

Knows, you know, obviously Carpenter's association with Crane the evening before and the timing that Carpenter says he hung out with Crane, you know, know that puts him in play. But I wouldn't dismiss, you know, these other suspects. You know, I, I don't know what law enforcement found out. Are there good alibis for some of these other, you know, the boyfriends of, you know, these women that, you know, Crane slept with, like that Scottsdale woman, You know, part of assessing this crime. And early on you informed me there was nothing taken except maybe a tribe tripod. Right. So this was a targeted attack. The offender's not going into this apartment and, and tossing things around looking for valuables. There isn't a lot of valuable stuff that has been taken. You know, think about the, the expense of some of that electronic equipment. You know, some of it is portable enough that if somebody wanted to take it, they could, but they don't. They literally go into this apartment and it just does not like there's like a fight between Crane and the offender. In this, in this case, this is either Crane is asleep, how much interaction Crane had with the offender ahead of time. You know, are they in bed together?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Right.

[Paul Holes]

And then, you know, Crane falls asleep and the offender kills him. You know, there's always, you know, scenarios. But this appears to be the offender went into that appointment apartment and at some point decided to kill Crane and left the apartment. And there's no other type of motive outside of the homicide.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Well, the police to wrap up Part one here are very focused on John Carpenter. Part of it is, you know, the, the doors that were unlocked, no forced entry, as you had said. This sounds, I don't know about personal, but it's not robbery. It's not punk kids most likely breaking in here, here. But somebody that he likely let in, they are focused on this guy. And John Carpenter, I'm sure, is getting very nervous in this situation.

[Paul Holes]

Sure. I just want to underscore what no signs of forced entry means. We talk about different scenarios, how he could have let the offender in because he knows the offender. But you also could have a knock on the door and Crane goes to the door and the offender pushes it into. This is forced entry, but there isn't the physical damage.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Right.

[Paul Holes]

That law enforcement can use to assess. Oh, yes, Somebody forced their way in.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah.

[Paul Holes]

And so that's where it's hard to draw a firm conclusion. Oh, Crane must have known the offender and let him in. You know, it could be a stranger that forced his way in.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

It could have been this ex boyfriend holding a gun. So there's not even a push. So there. Nobody even hears anything. He says, get inside. And then. Well, there's a lot on the table. This also should have been like a three parter, probably because there's a lot more that happens with this case. So we, you know, next week we'll talk about Bob Crane, how he is not even. It seems remotely like the lovable character that we see in the comedy series Hogan's Heroes. And I think this was very shocking to a lot of people when it came out. And we'll talk about John Carpenter and where this story goes because it is such a Hollywood mystery still. But you asked for it, buddy. You wanted to talk about Bob Crane with somebody, and I am somebody.

[Paul Holes]

Yeah, no, I will say yeah. This case is turning out to be more interesting than what I realized.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Oh, very good. If I could just get past that threshold with every case we talk about, that's all I need. Oh, a little better than I thought. Just kidding. Okay.

[Paul Holes]

All right, well, I'm looking forward to the next part.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

And don't Google anything about Bob Crane.

[Paul Holes]

I won't.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Okay, I'll see you next week.

[Paul Holes]

Sounds good.

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This has been an exactly right production.

[Paul Holes]

For our sources and show notes, go to exactlyrightmedia.com buriedbones sources.

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Our senior producer is Alexis Amorosi.

[Paul Holes]

Research by Maren McLachen, Allie Elkin and Kate Winkler Dawson.

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Our mixing engineer is Ben Tollin.

[Paul Holes]

Our theme song is by Tom Breivogel.

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Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac, Executive.

[Paul Holes]

Produced by Karen Kilgariff, Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer.

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You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

And Facebook @ buriedbonespod.

[Paul Holes]

Kate's most recent book, all that Is A Gilded Age Story of Murder and the Race to Decode the Criminal Mind.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Is available now and Paul's best selling.

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Memoir, Unmasked My Life Solving America America's.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Cold Cases, is also available now.

[Paul Holes]

Listen to Buried bones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

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