Prime Time Crime PT 2

Summary

Buried Bones: “Prime Time Crime PT 2”

Podcast: Buried Bones
Hosts: Kate Winkler Dawson & Paul Holes
Release Date: July 16, 2025
Episode Summary:
In this second part of their deep dive into the murder of TV star Bob Crane, journalist Kate Winkler Dawson and retired investigator Paul Holes dissect the intricacies—and the failures—of the investigation into the infamous 1978 Scottsdale, Arizona case. Through forensic hindsight and modern investigative expertise, the hosts re-examine evidence, suspects, and police decisions, debating whether justice was ever really possible in Crane’s unsolved murder.

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Episode Overview

Kate and Paul continue their exploration of Bob Crane's mysterious death, focusing intently on the evidence against the prime suspect, John Carpenter, as well as the forensic and investigative missteps that hampered the case. Through insightful discussion and expert analysis, they reflect on what might have been if the case were handled with today’s standards, painting a vivid portrait of the pitfalls of 1970s policing and how vital proper evidence collection and open-minded investigation are to achieving justice.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Recap and Context of Bob Crane’s Murder

• Bob Crane, former TV star, was found brutally murdered in 1978, Scottsdale, Arizona.
• Circumstances: Discovered by a co-star in his apartment, hit twice on the head, cord from a VCR wrapped around his neck. Scene was very bloody, no signs of forced entry.
  (05:10–06:50)
• Crane’s secret life: Large volume of sexual material and equipment found, suggesting a hidden, possibly dangerous lifestyle.

2. Autopsy Details and Missed Forensic Opportunities

• Autopsy findings: Abundant dried blood, suspected semen-like substance on Crane’s body (never tested).
  “Police later theorized the killer may have masturbated over Crane’s dead body... but it was a theory. And they never tested the semen."
  — Kate Winkler Dawson (07:08)
• Paul criticizes inadequate evidence collection, especially the failure to gather sexual evidence from Crane’s body and bedsheets.
  “There’s all sorts of DNA from these various sexual encounters…so you need to collect that evidence up front.”
  — Paul Holes (08:17)
• Discussion on the limitations of 1970’s investigative practice and missed avenues for identifying possible perpetrators through evidence on scene.

3. John Carpenter: Relationship & Motive

• Police zero in on Carpenter: Electronics salesman, close friend to Crane, provider of video equipment, and participant in sexual exploits.
  (12:52–18:02)
• Crane’s son suggests Carpenter had become a “pain in the ass” to Bob, who was considering distancing himself—potential motive for Carpenter.
• Carpenter and Crane: Transactional relationship—Crane gets electronics for his hobby, Carpenter gets access to Crane’s Hollywood lifestyle and women.
• Carpenter’s shifting alibi: “He’s unaccounted for from 3am until 8am when he checks out of the hotel and goes to the airport. So there’s this five hour window... he could have absolutely carried out this murder for sure.”
  — Kate Winkler Dawson (17:18)

4. Forensic Evidence in the Rental Car

• Scottsdale police focus on Carpenter’s rental Chrysler Cordoba (similar to eyewitness descriptions, a possible white Cadillac).
  (20:26–24:43)
• Blood stains and potential tissue found in the rental car (passenger door, power window switch), but investigators failed to adequately collect or preserve bio-evidence.
  “They took a photo of it but never collected it.”
  — Kate (28:27)
• Paul points out the evidence is inconclusive, particularly the supposed “brain matter”:
  “This mass could be anything. I literally cannot conclude what it is.”
  — Paul Holes (29:08)
• Later, ABO blood testing from the car returns as type B (rare, matches Bob Crane), but Paul notes blood type is not conclusive—at best, weakly inclusive:
  “Depending on the ethnicity, who knows who’s been bleeding inside this rental car…”
  — Paul Holes (34:05)

5. Missed Evidence & Modern DNA Testing

• 1990s: Cold case detective discovers an uncollected biological sample in crime scene photos—leads to Carpenter’s arrest, but only based on photographs.
  “That was the brain matter one that you looked at. The point of that photo is that they didn’t keep the evidence. There’s no way of identifying what that actually is.”
  — Kate (36:23)
• Prosecution’s case collapses at trial in 1994 due to lack of physical evidence and inability to confirm blood/tissue identity.
• Modern DNA testing (2010s): Journalist John Hook submits remaining samples for analysis. Result: DNA does NOT match Bob Crane. Main profile is an unknown male; Bob Crane eliminated.
  “If Bob Crane’s blood is inside Carpenter’s rental car, I’m going, okay, yeah, he’s the killer. But if it comes back and it’s not even Bob Crane’s blood, then it’s just spurious, you know, and they got nothing on Carpenter, to be frank.”
  — Paul Holes (45:36)

6. Failures of the Investigation

• Police and prosecution heavily criticized for focusing solely on Carpenter and failing to explore other leads or collect/preserve evidence properly.
• Scottsdale PD described as “overmatched” and lacking experience in major crime scene handling.
  “This case was not handled right based off of what you told me. But I’m not going to cast … bad things about Scottsdale PD from 1978, but I can guarantee … Phoenix PD has very experienced investigators.”
  — Paul Holes (47:08)
• Lessons: Agencies should recognize their limitations and seek help from larger or more experienced departments in complex investigations.

7. Takeaways & Reflections

• Kate and Paul critique the consequences of prosecutorial overreach and poor evidence management:
  “You take a weak case to court and you get an acquittal, you’re done.”
  — Paul Holes (46:00)
• The importance of humility and collaboration in police investigations:
  “Get over yourself about taking the lead … call in help when you need it.”
  — Kate Winkler Dawson (59:11)
• The need for rigorous evidence tracking, professionalism, and experience as crime scene standards evolve.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the “brain matter” photo:
  “I literally cannot conclude what it is … that doesn’t look like what I have personally witnessed in actual homicide cases where I can test it and know what it is.”
  — Paul Holes (39:10–39:44)

• On the significance of weak blood evidence:
  “Depending on the ethnicity, who knows who’s been bleeding inside this rental car, Depending on the ethnicity background, one third … could be type B. … All it is is a weak inclusion from a physical evidence (standpoint).”
  — Paul Holes (34:05)

• On small-town agencies handling big cases:
  “…Agencies need to recognize what they’re good at and when they might want to reach out for help…”
  — Paul Holes (47:08)

• On the importance of thorough evidence searches:
  “Did you really look… or is your property technician just telling you, ‘there’s nothing on the shelf under that case file number’? Then I’d go, well, you need to go back and you need to look. You didn’t look.”
  — Paul Holes (60:29)

---

Important Timestamps

• 05:10: Recap of Bob Crane’s death, sex addiction, possible motives
• 07:08–08:17: Autopsy findings, untested evidence, critique of forensic process
• 12:52–18:02: Examination of John Carpenter’s relationship with Crane and motive
• 21:29–24:43: Description and critique of crime scene sketch and rental car analysis
• 27:21–30:55: Blood and “tissue” evidence in Carpenter’s rental car—discussion on forensic reliability
• 32:25–36:43: 1990s re-investigation, “brain matter” photo as weak probable cause
• 38:22–41:57: Trial, prosecution’s inability to prove tissue/blood is from Crane
• 45:36–49:42: Modern DNA testing exonerates Carpenter, evidence destroyed/exhausted
• 56:52–59:11: Lessons learned, reflections on police experience, humility, and collaboration

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Final Reflection

Kate and Paul leave listeners with cautionary takeaways about historical police work and forensic science. While both believe John Carpenter remains a strong suspect, they agree the failings of the initial investigation and a weak prosecution almost certainly doomed the case to its famous status as an enduring Hollywood mystery. The Bob Crane investigation now stands as a case study on the dire consequences of botched evidence, investigative tunnel vision, and the relentless passage of time in cold cases.

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Buried Bones continues to spotlight the intersection of history, expertise, and the evolution of justice—reminding listeners of the high cost when lessons aren’t learned.

Transcript

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[Kate Winkler Dawson]

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25 years writing about true crime.

[Paul Holes]

And I'm Paul Holes, a retired cold case investigator who's worked some of America's most complicated cases and solved them.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Each week I present Paul with one of history's most compelling true crimes.

[Paul Holes]

And I weigh in. Using modern forensic techniques to bring new insights to old mysteries.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime cases through a 21st century lens.

[Paul Holes]

Some are solved and some are cold. Very cold.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

This is Buried Bones.

[Paul Holes]

Hey, Kate.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Hey, Paul. You ready to go on Bob Crane?

[Paul Holes]

Absolutely. I want to hear it.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I'm surprised you didn't text me in the middle of the week and say, can you tell me a little bit more? I mean, it's a big one when somebody is not who you expect them to be. And now there's these suspects and people around and sort of a sleazy world in a way. So it's interesting.

[Paul Holes]

Well, I think, yeah, that was one of the takeaways from the first episode is the victimology because all I knew about Bob Crane is the actor. And now you start to see, well, everybody has their, their thing and looks like he's got this, whether he's making porn, but he's doing something that seems a little shady. And I'm interested to see how that world develops is that the reason he ends up dead is because of these affairs that he's having these, you know, sexual flings that he's having. And he's. You got jealous men that are coming after him, you know, so there's a lot of stuff going on with him.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Absolutely. Let me do a quick recap and, you know, catch everybody up. So we're in 1978, Scottsdale, hotter than hell, and it's June and Bob Crane is there. We don't know for how long, but it sounds like just for a few weeks, maybe a month. Staying in a little apartment, doing a dinner show. And he has a co star coming over. She discovers his body. The police then discover a large amount of photos of naked women on Polaroids as well as a lot of video. He's got video equipment everywhere. He's been hit twice in the head and he has a cord ripped from a VCR around his neck. And you know, this is A very bloody scene. There's no signs of forced entry. But at the end of the last episode we talked about, well, I mean, a gun pointed at you would not indicate forced entry either, so we can't really rely on that. But there are jealous boyfriends and there's a wife who, you know, thought that she was going to be reconciling. And now she finds out that it doesn't sound like he's gotten out of this sex addiction is what he claims it is at this point. So the police are investigating a good friend of his named John Carpenter, electronics salesman, we're assuming most of the electronics in this apartment and probably what he had in la, are sold to him or given to him by John Carpenter. So one of the big questions will be for us. What does John Carpenter get out of all of this? The mystery will deepen once we find out a little bit more about their relationship. Did I get everything right, or do you have any other questions or anything I haven't covered?

[Paul Holes]

No, I think that, you know, from the. The investigative side, that pretty much sums it up. You know, one of the questions that I have is what was the autopsy finding? You know, in terms of. You said there was two blows. I mean, I could see the two. Laceration. Was there signs of strangulation?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Okay, there's a deputy medical examiner, a guy named Thomas Jarvis, this is from John Hook's book. Who performed the autopsy. So he was almost 50 years old when he died. Type of death is listed as violent. No kidding. The manner by blunt instrument and cord. Here are the abnormal findings. Abundant dry blood on face, hair and upper chest. The autopsy report also noted a flaky white dry material on the pubic hair, right lower abdomen and right anterior thigh, which they said was likely semen, but they never tested it. Police later theorized the killer may have masturbated over Crane's dead body after the killing, which John Hook says is a final fuck you quote, unquote. But it was a theory. And they never tested the semen and never came to a conclusion about what it was. And that's all the information I have about what they found. Okay, what do you think about that? The way they described it, does that seem likely? If this is a man, isn't that fuck you masturbating over somebody? Is that what that is? I always thought it was sort of a sexual component.

[Paul Holes]

So that does happen. You know, you have these offenders that will masturbate after they've killed their victims. You know, is it a form of denigration? To the victim potentially, you know, but it's a sexual act. It sounds like they didn't collect these items. You know, it's like, oh, good God. We're talking about all the, you know, these, these photos of nude women and videos of women having sex. His bed sheets. That's a huge source of information. There's all sorts of DNA from these various sexual encounters. And most certainly there could be evidence from the offender and stains on that sheet for maybe a prior occasion if there had been a relationship between the offender. Right now, I'm assuming the offender is mal male. I don't know if Crane is having sex with men, but I wouldn't end up saying no, that's an impossibility because all the subjects of his photos and videos, as far as what you've told me are women, you know, but, you know, is, is Crane somebody that is, you know, crossing into homosexual acts? That opens up a whole other suspect pool and it's like, who has he had sex with? And you could answer that by swabbing his body, by collecting his bed sheets. You know, that is so huge. There's limited number of reasons why people are killed in terms of primary motives. And one of the primary ones is it's who they're having sex with, whether it be a man or a woman. So you need to collect that evidence up front.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

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[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Okay, well, let's talk about John Carpenter and his relationship with Bob Crane. And yes, we know they didn't collect anything. Another failing. They do some good things and some bad things here. I mean, I'm glad he had her answer the phone that one time, even though I know it contaminated even more of the crime scene. It was interesting that he called twice, you know, and what his reactions are and all of that, but at the same time, forensically, they're failing. Scottsdale police are not doing a great job right now.

[Paul Holes]

Yeah, there's, there's a struggle going on there. Yeah, things, things could have been done better.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Well, let's talk about the police interview. They are looking at Bob Crane's inner circle as any police would, and they start talking to a lot of people. They're getting conflicting reports because they really are focusing on John Carpenter for better or for worse. There were reports that they got along great, these two guys, and there are reports that they had been on the outs and a few days before Bob's death. They were in a heated argument. We don't know about what. And Bob Crane Jr. Who was close with his dad, gives police this quote. And I promise this is all going somewhere more than just they probably irritated each other every once in a while. There was an indication, just in a passing conversation with my father, that John Carpenter coming into town was getting to be a little bit of a pain in the ass. My dad expressed that he just didn't need Carpenter kind of hanging around him anymore. So let me explain what the relationship was like. John had cultivated this transactional relationship between Bob and himself. So for Bob, John has this access to equipment that I'm sure Bob is clueless about. So he gets all of this great equipment for something that he's obviously preoccupied with. And that's a big part of Bob's life. And John gets the proximity to Bob, so he gets Hollywood fun. He gets women and sex. And the men have even taped themselves. I'm assuming they found these tapes in threesomes. So there is some kind of intimacy. I mean, the range of two men and a woman in a threesome could go, you know, many different directions. But there's certainly an intimacy and a comfort level there with these two men.

[Paul Holes]

So it sounds like, per Crane's son, that Bob Crane was starting to say John Carpenter was more of a hanger on and not as desired at this point.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah.

[Paul Holes]

In the relationship.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

And he and his wife were getting back together, if we believe the wife. You know, he's in therapy, although I don't know if those tapes say that, but yeah.

[Paul Holes]

And so now this becomes interesting from potentially a motive, you know, was John Carpenter starting to sense that Bob Crane the celebrity was pulling away from him and that his lifestyle was going to be changing, he would no longer have access to the women, to the Hollywood, you know, lifestyle, whatever that was with Bob Crane. Did Crane tell him, you know, hey, stop coming around, you know, and now you could have somebody being very upset as a result of. It's basically a breakup, you know, and so Carpenter most certainly is. Is an interesting suspect, you know, and I'd say he's a suspect for sure. I just. Right now, you know, my fear is, is that maybe law enforcement so focused in on him that they didn't pursue other leads as rigorously as possibly should have?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah, I mean, it sounds like it. Let me give you a little tiny bit more insight. I mean, this is such a gross quote, but the Phoenix New times back in 1978 said women were drawn to the still popular Crane like Fish to a worm. And Carpenter didn't seem to mind dallying with the leftovers. Gross. And so, you know, the theory for the police, which they thought was the strongest of any of these suspects and any other theory they had, was that John was motivated, like you said, to kill Bob, because Bob was stepping back from their friendship. Bob apparently had been saying he was gonna try to get back together with his wife. John says none of that is true. He said, I came to Arizona on June 25th, and all of this happened on the 29th. So it sounds like he had been there for three or four days. And he says, look, I was there to do some business and to hang out with Bob. They said, what did you guys do together? He said, we try to pick up women. So much for therapy and getting back together with your wife. So this is a funny line from Maren. And then I want to hear from you. She said that they tried to pick up women. And then Bob was successful, John was not. And the last night that John was in town, he brought a woman back to the hotel and put the moves on her. And at 3am the woman asked to be taken home. So he dropped her off. And he's unaccounted for from 3am until 8am when he checks out of the hotel and he goes to the airport. So there's this five hour window, according to John, where he could have absolutely carried out this murder for sure.

[Paul Holes]

This also goes to where we know John Carpenter changed the time that he said that he left Bob Crane from 1am to 2:45am And I mentioned, well, it sounds like he's concerned about a witness possibly seeing him later than what he stated. He was there. And now there's this woman, and I don't know if she was ever identified. But his, from his perspective, he's seeing an homicide investigation unfold. And he's going, oh, they are tracking people down and they're going to find out about this woman. And she's going to say, I was with him several hours past the time that he said that he had actually left Bob Crane. One of the thoughts that I have, though, is if John Carpenter is truly enjoying the lifestyle with Bob Crane and Bob Crane is starting to pull away. Well, killing Bob Crane basically completely ends that lifestyle, you know, so there's an argument to be made that Carpenter would be more motivated to have Crane alive than dead if he wants to have any potential future relationship with Crane and all the various advantages that gives Carpenter in his life. You know, you could most certainly see where In a fit of rage, you have a homicide occur because of this, let's say a breakup between Bob Crane and John Carpenter and possibly if a tripod was used as a bludgeoning device. This doesn't sound like it's pre planned homicide. He's not coming in with a weapon. He's utilizing something that is found within the apartment. The electrical cord is something that is coming off of a vcr. And I think it's significant that, I mean, I've seen offenders pull electrical cords out of various devices and use them as binding and or ligature material. But it's significant that he's choosing an electronic device. The offender's choosing an electronic device versus maybe drape record or something like that. So would that kind of suggest, you know, Carpenter is familiar with this electronic equipment. He knew that possibly this VCR has a power cord that would be very easy to be able to yank out of it just the way it's attached internally. However, the victimology also just keeps the door open to the possibility that you have the jealous male coming in and taking Bob Crane out.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah, and I think that like I said, they are really, really focused on John Carpenter and just his, the squishiness of his timeline in general, I think is what gets them. So let's talk about evidence. That's what you and I care about. Also, police need to find the rental car that John Carpenter had used. He had been there four or five days. He said, I rented a car. So a few days after Bob is found dead, they finally locate this car and it's having mechanical issues and was being sent to a repair shop, which I think probably would have been a nightmare. Of course, having other people in the car because it's a rental car would have been bad too. But the police find it and they tow it and they start looking at some things. So in a minute I'll have you look at the car. Well, actually go ahead and look at the car now. It's not a Cadillac, but it's a Chrysler Cordoba. I don't know if that looks like a Cadillac. So look on your Bob Crane photos also, Paul, there's a. I don't, I guess I skipped over it. There's a little diagram in there from the police. I don't know if you're going to think that's helpful or not.

[Paul Holes]

To be frank, this, this crime scene sketch is quite artistic. This is unusual.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Looks like a, like a procreate drawing to me. Like a, like a really high level drawing.

[Paul Holes]

Well, this is, you know, this is where obviously the, the person who did this sketch for Scottsdale PD is a talented sketcher, but, like, if I were the mentor of this person, I'd be slapping him on the back of his head saying, you're taking too long because you're putting in detail that is not needed. He's got the, you know, wrinkles in the sheet and shading to the pillow, and it's like, no, you know, this is we to get moving on this, you know, collecting evidence. We can't be sitting here trying to make a pretty sketch. So this tells me there's a level of inexperience. As good as this sketch appears visually, it's like, no, it's too much. It's. It's overkill. We have photographs to fill in those details. Okay, so I'm looking at a photograph. It's indicating that this is John Carpenter's Chrysler Cordoba. So this was a, a rental car. And this is, you know, your typical boat of a car from the 1970s.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Paul Holes]

It's, you know, you got the, the massive trunk. You probably got a massive front bench seat. It appears to be a two door car. This photograph is showing the car from the, the rear. You know, so I'm seeing the tail lights. You know, it's a massive car. And I know we have this witness that sees what was described as a white Cadillac. White Cadillac looked like this back in the 1970s, you know, so this is where, okay, this car, this Cordoba, is probably something that would easily be confused for a Cadillac from this, this era. So I think you mentioned it when, when you were talking about the white Cadillac in the first episode, that, yeah, you could probably, you know, throw a, a rock and hit one because they would be so popular. So, yeah, it's not. I, I can't put a lot of weight. That Carpenter has a vehicle that I would say matches what that witness said about a white Cadillac. But it is important evidence in that. Okay, what is found inside here? Is there anything from the crime scene that can be, you know, inside this rental car? You know, that today maybe with DNA we could tie back, you know, is there blood transfer? Is there other aspects? Hopefully they did a thorough job processing. This.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

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[Kate Winkler Dawson]

So let me look and go back and forth so don't skip ahead. But we do have photos kind of everything. Every time I say something we've got a photo. So first up is going to be in the backseat of the passenger side of what's confirmed to be John Carpenter's rental car. Technicians find a small dry blood smear on the switch that rolls the window up and down. John Hook says they weren't Weren't drops of blood. These were more like streaks or smudges or smears. So that's what you see on page five of your doc.

[Paul Holes]

It's important that they're finding blood because you have a homicide victim that is bleeding. So is it possible the offender, you know, walked out from that homicide with blood on his person, on his clothing, on an object, let's say the murder weapon that is transferred inside the rental car? For sure. However, at this point, point it's a rental car. Who else has been inside this car and is bleeding until that blood is shown to be Bob Crane's blood with DNA, you know, for me it's like, yeah, it's important, but you need to do DNA in order to interpret it as having any relevance to this crime.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah, and there's a couple of other things. So there's a bunch of other stains. I guess if you kind of go through, you'll see there are a few other stains. Blood on a power window switch, you know, blood stains on the passenger door. There is a tissue speck on the door panel. And then there is going to be one more little bit down there that they believe is brain matter that was found in the car.

[Paul Holes]

Wait a second. So, okay, so this tissue spec on door panel believed to be from Bob Crane's skull, lost or never collected.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

So they took a photo of it but never collected it.

[Paul Holes]

What the hell?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Well, we've established, Paul, that Scottsdale PD is overmatched here.

[Paul Holes]

So I mean, how can they even say anything about this? Let's see here.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I do not know.

[Paul Holes]

So I'm zooming in and I see, you know, there's a. A ruler that's in, you know, inches, American Standard measurement ruler. And this red glob is about 116 of an inch in diameter. It's got three dimensions to it. There's a close up photo of this tissue speck on the next page. When it's initially photoed, you know, the coloration, it's looking bright red. And then this close up photo, it's looking brown. It's like this globular mass that to be frank, just from its physical appearance, I couldn't draw any conclusion as to what it is. I have processed, you know, know, thousands of items for blood, for tissue. Over the course of my career. I've seen them at crime scenes, seen it on items of evidence within the lab. And this mass could be anything. I literally cannot conclude what, what it is. And, and I will tell you, I've seen stains on physical evidence that I was like that's blood. And then I test it and it's not blood. And I've seen stuff, let's say, inside a car. I can think of one thing where I've got this, you know, reddish brown. It looked like dried blood. And tested it and it was not blood. And so that's where, you know, I have developed a level of cautiousness. I can look. I know what a crime scene looks like. I know what blood looks like fresh looks like when it's coagulating as it's outside the body. I know what it looks like when it's dry, when it's been subjected to environmental influence. But now there's a photo of this globular mass that they never collect. And they're saying it's coming from Bob Crane's skull.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

They're not sure. I know, I know.

[Paul Holes]

You know, I can't. I personally and I have a level of expertise. I cannot draw that conclusion. It seems like somebody's really reaching on this item of evidence. And there's these other blood stains in the car. Did they collect those and has DNA testing been done on those?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Let me get. You're jumping way ahead, buddy. So you just hang on. Remember, this is a two parter. We're not ending in 10 minutes. Let me tell you what they do. So thankfully they do pull a sample of the blood. It is type B rare. And Bob is a type B. John is not. Bob says, I have no idea how the blood got in there. I don't know what you're talking about. He volunteers to go back to Arizona. He does not get a lawyer. He says, I'll take a lie detector test and I'll take truth serum. Sodium pentothal.

[Paul Holes]

Yeah, sodium pentothal, which just sounds like.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

An interesting way to die, truth serum or even go under hypnosis. And he says, I don't have anything to hide. You know, the police are very frustrated. For years they remain focused on John Carpenter. The tangible evidence against him is scant. So every so often there's a tip. There's a housekeeper at the Scottsdale Hotel where John stayed. She found a bloody pillowcase and a washcloth in the room he had slept in. But these are thrown out and, you know, her dates are kind of off, so we don't even know if that's where John was. And then we get to the blood, tissue stuff. So, you know, you saw the photo and we talked a little bit about it. The reason this photo comes up is more than a decade later. So this is in the early 19, 90s there's a detective named Jim Raines and he looks at the case with fresh eyes and finds what Entertainment Weekly.

Calls a previously unknown, unseen crime scene.

Photo of the rental car. There's no sample. Nobody acknowledges this brain tissue is what they're calling it. And this detective, a decade or so later finds this photo that nobody recognizes. He finds medical experts who say that the photo. There's no negatives, Paul. He finds these experts who say the.

Photo shows what appears to be a.

Small piece of human tissue stuck to the interior side of the passenger door. Their theory is, is that John beat Bob Crane to death with this tripod, they're assuming, and then got in the car and carried all of this, you know, biological evidence with him. It might have bumped or rubbed against the car door or he tossed it in the back, who knows? And that is when they end up arresting him with this little discovery, right, of this photograph that you say we can't even tell whether this is brain tissue or not. But this to them a decade later is enough to arrest him. Just so you know, he had completed a short stint for molesting his girlfriend's 10 year old daughter, so they knew where he was.

[Paul Holes]

It sounds like at the very beginning of this case that they built against Carpenter and what you were laying out is that they did ABO blood testing on the blood stains and it came back type B and Bob Crane is type B. So I'm just having to go back to my ABO typing charts.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I was wondering you.

I knew you were listening to me, but I was wondering what you were doing at the same time.

[Paul Holes]

As an example then there's a reason why we moved away from ABO typing and it's because it's not very discriminating. Now type B, you know, it's a smaller percentage of the population so there's a little bit more weight that can be put on on it. But I'm looking at, I had to go, I have an old book, it's called the Source book of Forensic Serology. But on the fly, trying to find what I needed was going to be too much. So I'm just going online and this is pretty cool because I didn't have this back in the day, but they've actually got the percentages of the blood types per ethnicity, if you will, across the world. And I'm looking at type B and depending on where you're at, but it's anywhere from 9% of a population up to, I'm seeing as high as 35%, like 1/3 of the population of certain ethnicities are type B. Basically. They cannot exclude this blood as being from Bob Crane. But I can't put, depending on the ethnicity, who knows who's been bleeding inside this rental car, Depending on the ethnicity background, one third third of the the population of that person's ethnic background could be type B. You know, this is where hopefully they still have this evidence and we do modern DNA testing on it and then say, yeah, this is Bob Crane's blood inside John Carpenter's rental car. Now I'm on board right now. It's just like, well, you can't exclude. All it is is a weak inclusion from a physical evidence. I'm just talking physical evidence by itself. Itself, that blood type B inside the rental car is just like, well, I can't eliminate Carpenter on that.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

And you know, back then they said when they found it in the early 90s, they were saying the estimate was one in seven people had type B. But who knows, right? Are they looking at the different ethnicities? And who knows? Their point is that it's rare enough for John Carpenter to still be in their crosshairs. That it was just too weird. Weird, you know, sure.

[Paul Holes]

Well, then they, you know, I was listening, but they said this is where the, the investigator found a previously unknown crime scene photo. So let me hear what you were talking about with that.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Well, that was the brain matter one that you looked at. So the point with that tissue, I know I'm putting, I'm going to put quotes, brain matter. The point of that photo is that they didn't keep the evidence. There's no way of identifying what that actually is. But it was enough to arrest John Carpenter more than a decade after Bob Crane's death.

[Paul Holes]

Again, just speaking from the physical evidence that's been presented, no, there isn't probable cause on that. Now, you know, the investigative side, his movement patterns, statements he's making, you know, that all has to factor in as to whether they've actually built sufficient probable cause to arrest. I'm not convinced that they have that with what you've told me.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I mean, I don't know what it was like in the 70s, but if you rented a car and then returned the car, I would assume they would clean it and examine it in between each rental. I mean, okay, maybe not.

[Paul Holes]

Are you kidding? I, I travel a lot. I mean, rental car companies today are very, very good. But I have had some rentals that are dirty. They're, you know, they smell like weed. You know, it's, it's like really, you're you're, you're not even trying, you know, to clean the car. So. No, I. Are the rental car technicians really paying that much attention to maybe there's a red stain on, you know, the window lever? No, they're not. You know, so that's, that's just where we know that there's a transient population that has been in and out of this particular car. And so to, to put any weight on the blood and that globular mass as being related to the homicide, with the testing that they've done. No, you can't draw that conclusion. That is right now, I think that's on the level of almost absurdity. They need to find that evidence and do DNA testing to show it's from Bob Crane.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Okay, here we go. Let's talk about the trial. And we do talk about this quote, unquote, brain matter. So John Carpenter goes on trial in 94. Bob Crane was murdered in 78. So this is what, 16 years later? And two pathologists testify for the prosecution. They say that a piece of human tissue would shrivel up after a few hours on a hot day in a car. But based on these photos, you know, that were taken, I guess as soon as they found the car, which would have been a few days later, the sample appeared fresh more than a day after John turned in the car. So I think this was not good for the prosecution because they're saying we didn't find this car on the day that, that his body was discovered. We found it four or five days later. Right.

[Paul Holes]

And that was my observation. I talked about how bright red that initial photo was. And then when they had the close up photo, it's all shriveled up and like this brown, globular. It almost looks like, like these, this little globular amber like substance. And you know, this is where, you know, I have to be cautious. I can't say it's not tissue, but I'm looking at it going, going, that doesn't look like what I have personally witnessed in actual homicide cases where I can test it and know what it is. You know, it's like I can't draw any conclusion as to what that mass is.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah, well, let me tell you, I mean, the prosecution just gets shamed. I think through this whole trial there are technicians they put on the stand who, you know, process the car as a crime scene. And they can't remember hardly anything about doing this in 78. And they barely remember seeing any blood, even let alone this tissue on the passenger door. So they're Useless. So they're out the door. The defense then says, you guys can't identify any of this stuff based on these photos. And they put a DPS lieutenant colonel on the stand who is supposedly an expert, who says, according to the crime laboratory, even under the best of circumstances, it's unlikely that stains or substances can be identified as blood smears or tissue just by looking at photographs. Therefore, a confirmation of any stain as being blood or tissue requires extensive laboratory testing. Therefore, it must be assumed that personal examination of the door panel did not reveal tissue, that no evidence was destroyed. So I don't know what that means. Like, what was that, a kernel of popcorn? I mean, what is he saying?

[Paul Holes]

No, well, I mean, he's saying, what I'm saying is that you can't draw any conclusions from these photographs. You have to do testing. The undercurrent about that is for people, people like myself and like this lieutenant colonel out of Arizona, DPS lab. We've seen the spectrum, let's say, of blood stains and various colors and forms it takes. And that's where you can't say, well, hold on, I've got this here, this mass as an example, and that looks like this. So therefore, it's got to be human tissue. And from Bob Crane skulls, there's no way you can jump to that conclusion. We have also been fooled ourselves when we go, wow, that really looks like blood. And then we test it and it turns out it's not blood.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah.

[Paul Holes]

You know, so that's fundamentally what he's saying now, that the last phrase that you read, I didn't understand the meaning of that. And what. What did he say at the end of there?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

So he says, you know, the confirmation of any stains as being blood or tissue requires extensive laboratory testing. Which you said, Golden.

[Paul Holes]

Yep.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yes. He says, therefore it must be assumed that the personal examination of the door panel did not reveal tissue and that there was no evidence that was destroyed because it wasn't there to begin with, is what he's saying. And then let me tell you what another person says that gave me a little bit more perspective. Prosecutors can't explain why Police reports in 78 didn't mention the tissue photo or the spec itself or why there are no negatives. A jury is going to be asked to believe that an untold number of investigators and prosecutors for whom a solution to the famed Crane murder would have been career crowning as an achievement, never noticed that stinking photo. So I don't know where they think the photo came from, but it doesn't Sound like it's even remotely a possibility that there was a brain spec found in the back of the car? Because that guy would have been under arrest much sooner, most likely.

[Paul Holes]

Yeah. So I'm going back to these photos. So one of the things that I'm looking for is. Is definitely, you know, in the lab, when we take photos of physical evidence, you know, we'll use a scale so you have a sense for the size of the stain or whatever you're looking at. But oftentimes the scale will have the lab number or the case file number and the item number written on it. So the photograph shows it's from this case and it's from this item. And so, you know, with what I'm seeing of these photos, there's a. There's a steel ruler that is being used to show size of various stains, but there's no markings anywhere in these photos within the photo itself to indicate what case it's associated with. And that's not to say it's these photos are from some other case. It's just that that would be something that I, as a reviewer of the processing and of the documentation, would be noting. And I also think it's notable I mentioned. It's a steel rock ruler, this steel ruler. And this is something, you know, back in the day I'm guilty of. We had plastic ones, but this is a. This is a ruler that is being used from case to case to case to case. It's a source of contamination. In this day and age, we would use something that's disposable, so we don't track, let's say, DNA from a previous homicide into a current homicide that, that we're working. But it looks like this, this photo of the. The car door, the inside panel, you know, it's so cropped, but it doesn't look like that's currently attached to the car. So it's like it was removed and possibly the entire panel, if not the entire door, was collected, you know, so this is where, okay, they say they can't find this evidence. Well, is there a paper trail? You know, where did it go? If it went to the lab, did it go from the lab back to. To property? Where on property was it placed? You know, how, how. How rigorously have they looked for this evidence? I've got my own cases, you know, from back in the day in which, well, we can't find the evidence. And then you find it and it's been placed in the wrong box. You have to start rolling up your sleeves and start Going through where it most likely is going to be. Have they done that? This is such a critical. These bloodstains inside Carpenter's rental car are so critical they have to exhaust. Lost everything in terms of trying to find it because it could prove the case and show that, yes, if Bob Crane's blood is inside Carpenter's rental car, I'm going, okay, yeah, he's the killer. But if it comes back and it's not even Bob Crane's blood, then it's just spurious, you know, and they got nothing on Carpenter, to be frank.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah, absolutely. And I think you hit the nail on the head because the prosecutor's case fell apart and in 94, John Carpenter is acquitted by the jury.

[Paul Holes]

You know, and this is, this is.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

A problem and this is not the end, Pole hole. So don't tell me your statement, but don't think this is the end. Don't say, bye bye, I'm gonna go have a drink of bourbon now because there's more of this.

[Paul Holes]

No, but, but this is where, you know, you take a weak case to court and you get an acquittal, you're done. Don't take a weak case like that, this to court because now let's say they do test, they find those, those blood stains out of Carpenter's rental car and it comes back to Bob Crane, they can't prosecute him. All they can say, well, we now know who the right killer, the right guy is, but he's free and clear.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Well, he was free and clear for four years and then he dies. So, you know, after that there are, of course, lots of people who say that John definitely was the one who killed Bob with, with a tripod and a VCR cord. And, you know, he probably took the tripod and folded it up and put it in his case and took it back home to LA with him. And then there are other people who say, listen, the police really dropped the ball here. I don't know if they should have called the state police or what, but that they dropped the ball and they didn't investigate enough. And then there are more developments. But what I can tell the way you sit up that usually I can. When you sit up like that, that's how I usually can tell you've got something to say, say, well, I think.

[Paul Holes]

You know, this is where agencies need to recognize what they're good at and what they might want to reach out for help, you know, and this case was not handled right based off of what you told me. But I'm not going to Cast. I'm not going to say bad things about Scottsdale PD from 1978, but I can guarantee that the agency right next to them, Phoenix PD has very experienced investigators, very experienced csis. This is where you have agreements when you're a smaller agency. Recognize your weaknesses and get MOUs in place with the resources that you can pull in when you have a case like this. And, you know, this is something that I've seen over and over again, and notably, let's say JonBenet Ramsey, where you have a smaller, inexperienced agency who probably should have called in Denver Homicide, to be frank. You know, kind of a similar type of scenario where from the very beginning, it really underscores that you have to do it right from the very beginning, otherwise you can possibly just completely kill the case.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Well, let me tell you, John Carpenter dies and this case goes very cold. So in the mid 2010s, the reporter I told you about, John Hook, who wrote the book, was given permission to submit the blood samples from John's car using more updated or using updated DNA processes which were available during earlier phases which were not available during earlier phases of the investigation. Investigation. So according to Hook, this is what the testing concluded. And this is from him. John Hook really did think that John Carpenter was responsible for this. The DNA found on the door of John Carpenter's rental car is not from Bob Crane. The test actually picked up two DNA profiles. A major contributor is from a man. We don't know who he is. The second is from a partial profile too degraded to reach any conclusion. Conclusions. So what John Hook says is, I still think he's the guy, John Carpenter. But, I mean, the DNA detected in our test might be completely unconnected to the crime. Might have been deposited before or after, you know, who knows? It's unlikely this has anything to do with the crime in general, but that was the conclusion. And just as a note, Paul, they said that. And I don't know if you want to call somebody and double check that this is the truth or not, but they said that all of the samples in Bob's case are still done. You can't use them anymore. They've all been used up. So there's no further DNA testing possible.

[Paul Holes]

Well, and I, you know, when you start talking about DNA technology in the mid-2010 range, we're talking modern DNA technology. This is where now you have the discriminating power. At least with the sample that they got results on, they've eliminated Bob Crane as being a contributor to that bloodstain. Just like what I was saying before, it's like it's somebody else's. It could be somebody else's. It's a rental car. So, you know, it's unfortunate if they've completely consumed the samples that they don't have results on, because the technology from a sensitivity standpoint has greatly improved since the 2010 timeframe. It's possible with the current law enforcement type of DNA testing that maybe they could get a result. I guess my question would be is why are they saying it's now consumed? It's because they consumed the entire extract. Have they consumed the swab that they used to collect it? Do they still have, let's say, the door panel? Can you go back and re. Swab that area? But absent being able to do that, I think that one test in and of itself, pretty much in all likelihood, okay, you've got a bleeder inside this rental car, and that blood is not coming from Bob Crane. Well, likely the other blood stains, which have very similar color appearance, you know, they, they don't look like they. You know, from a temporal standpoint that some of these stains have been there much longer than other stains. Likely all those stains are from that same bleeder. That's not Bob Crane. You know, so this is where the physical evidence against Carpenter, at least from that rental car is. You know, you have to throw all of that out. You can't rely upon that at all. All, you know, the circumstantial case. He is, he's a, he's a suspect. I just don't think that they have enough to be confident he is the one responsible. Do you know, did they ever go out to LA and search Carpenter's residence? I have an issue maybe with Carpenter bringing the murder weapon back home with him flying it. You know, I think he would have gotten rid of that somewhere in the Scottsdale Phoenix area.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah.

And I was thinking, Paul, what would.

Make those stains in the car like. I guess the theory is, is that he uses a tripod, he beats Bob Crane to death. It's not that he's using a knife and he's cut his hands. It's that the blood was transferred from the tripod somehow in the car. But do the patterns that you saw make sense for flinging a tripod into the back of a car?

And would he do that to begin with?

Why would he do that? It's a rental car, you know.

[Paul Holes]

You know, you have one blood stain where obviously you have a finger that has blood on it that is being used to operate the window switch. Right. That's obvious, you know. So I would say that chances are as those blood stains are being transferred because the person has blood on their hands and not so much that it's because you've got a bloody tripod that's being floated flung back there, it's not going to be touching that part. If it's a tripod that's leaving those linear, those parallel linear stains on the bed sheet, that's a significant amount of blood on the legs of that tripod. And if that is not cleaned off and that's thrown in the trunk or that's, you know, thrown into the back seat or something, you'd probably see some fairly significant transfers. If those particular legs with blood on them are contacting surfaces within the car versus what I'm seeing in those photos is, is more consistent with somebody transferring blood from their fingers. And it may not be the person's own blood. It could be some. Somebody else, you know, maybe, maybe this car was used in a different homicide. And, you know, who knows, you know.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Or someone with a bloody nose. My kid gets bloody noses a lot, so who knows, you know.

[Paul Holes]

Well, sure, you know, if they've got. If they put a bloody nose and transfer that onto their fin. But right now that blood is irrelevant. It's not related to the crime per modern DNA testing. So now it's okay, you think it's John Carpenter. How do you prove it's John Carpenter in this day and age? You know, are they going to get any further circumstantial evidence against him? You know, it's going to be tough.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah, and I don't see that. I'm assuming they did search his apartment and didn't find anything. They never found the tripod, which was Bob Crane's tripod, if that's what was used. And so, you know, this just becomes a big mystery. And that's why it's an unsolved case. I guess the big movement would be if somebody like a Paul Holes calls, you know, Scottsdale PD and says, do you guys still have any biological evidence anywhere, any kind of evidence at all from this Bob Crane case?

[Paul Holes]

Well, and that's where I would be going back to the original. You have to go to the origin of the crime, which is Bob Crane's body, where Bob Crane is killed. And then an outer circle, if you will, is whatever they collected out of the apartment. How much latent processing did they do? Do they have any latents that are unidentified today? We always get latents out of houses. If we pro. If we do a Decent job. And we always find latents that we can never identify because you have so many people that flow in and out of that, that apartment. But we have technology today that if they have unidentified latents, they could identify that person and go, that person was, you know, like I had one case in GSK where we got super excited because on the bottom of the victim's phone there was an unidentified latent that one of the examiners identified, you know, 40 some odd years later. And then investigation showed that turned out to be a telephone repairman. That's why his latent is on that phone. It's not gsk, but you have to go through those motions. And so this is where, if I were to look at this case today, it's like I, I want everything, I need to see the entire case file and I need to see the entire evidence list of what was collected back in the day, what should be in the case file. I would also need to go to property and start auditing the property room, like my old property room. For these old cases, they use 3x5 index cards. Really kind of a pretty good file system for back in the day that wasn't computerized. Do you still have those cards? And on the back of the card would be written information as to this evidence was destroyed on such and such a date, whatever, you know, so you establish a paper trail. If you don't have the paper trail, that's like, well, where would this evidence normally be kept? In the property room. And are there, are there cases from this era that are in this area? Have you guys opened up the boxes to see? Is there Bob Crane evidence that got just put somewhere else where it shouldn't be? Yeah, you know, that's just the reality of what happens with these old cases. And so this is part of if I get involved in the case, that's all to compile the current state of the case at this point in time and the current state of the evidence that exists and then make decisions on how to proceed from there.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

It's been a while since I think you've gotten this excited about a case that we talked about. And I understand why. You know, I'm always trying to think about what the lesson is when we do these cases. Things that I think about, you know, with historical cases and sometimes I put them in, in a couple of different categories. There's one category where it's clear. The police in the 1800s, early 1900s, or even the 1970s want to do everything they can. They know they don't have the technology to solve this. Now they collect everything in the best way they know how. And then there are the investigators and the prosecutors who are doing things that, where they should know better and they're not doing them. And we've got talked about climbing over the body to shave it right then and there. You know, putting on a case that is clearly weak based on a photograph that's not gonna lead you anywhere and is ruining any chance of being able to prosecute this guy later on. So, you know, there are these balances where I look at the investigators in the past and just go, man, I'm so sorry that you all that you had to attach a magnet to a fishing line to try to find a gun in a river. I mean, that was fortit. But then there are other times where I just think, yep, you really didn't even think about what was going to happen, what the consequences were of your decisions.

[Paul Holes]

I don't want to just call out incompetence. I think oftentimes you have very well meaning individuals that are working a case, but they don't have the experience, they don't have the expertise. And, and that goes back to when you say the, the message, you know, this case here, if Properly done in 1978, sexual assault kits were being done on victims bodies, fingernail scrapings were being collected. Crusty material from pubic hair was being collected out of, you know, the agency I worked for in the Bay Area. If they didn't do that, this is where you go, okay, they were in over their heads. And that's where agencies just need to know, know what they don't know and be prepared when they have to recognize. I've got a case that my agency cannot fully handle. I need outside help in order to do this right from the very beginning.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

So that's maybe a better takeaway. The better takeaway here is get over yourself about taking the lead on a case because it's your jurisdiction or it's your town and call and help when you need it. Here they call the Texas Rangers also, you know, I mean, there are resources that everyone has certainly more than they used to have, I'm assuming. So. Okay, I like that too. So, you know, as we move along in our seasons here, I want to definitely keep an eye on the really good performances that we see. The impressive people. Sometimes you say, I didn't know that pathologist would be able to figure that out. And I've done that too. So I'm surprised sometimes. And then sometimes I go, no, what is going on with These people. So it's good for you to tell me the difference between just people who are malicious or don't give a shit versus the people who just clearly are sort of drowning in a case that has, you know, more to it than they can handle. Yep.

[Paul Holes]

Nope. That's for sure. You know, and most certainly there are just negligent individuals in law enforcement that purposely are just lazy and they don't try, you know, but oftentimes what I see, you know, the general population is going to blame that. But oftentimes it's what I think is going on here is just that, you know, it's an experience.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah.

[Paul Holes]

And maybe, you know, certain things like, you know, evidence tracking within the evidence room, property room could have been more robust back in the day than what it sounds like they have, you know, but I'm not convinced just because I've seen it before. Where. And it's. It's because of. Of experience, is that, nope, we can't find the evidence, so the case is done. And I was like, did you really look, you know, or is your property technician just telling you, hey, there's nothing on the shelf under that case file number? Then I'd go, well, you need to go back and you need to look. You didn't look.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Well, next week, can I guarantee you that we're not going to have lazy investigators? No, I can't tell you that. Will there be investigators? Yes. That's about the only thing I can say that we will have people looking into a crime and that's it. But every, you know, week to week, I'm always interested in seeing how you rate these people. And, you know, some of them impress us for sure. So we'll see what happens next week.

[Paul Holes]

All right. Again, I'm looking forward to it and thank you again for bringing this case to me.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

You got it.

This has been an exactly right production.

[Paul Holes]

For our sources and show notes, go to exactlyrightmedia.com barrybones sources.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Our senior producer is Alexis Amorosi.

[Paul Holes]

Research by Maren McLachan, Ali Elkin and Kate Winkler Dawson.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

[Paul Holes]

Our theme song is by Tom Breyfogle.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

[Paul Holes]

Executive produced by Karen Kilgariff, Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook @ buriedbonespod.

[Paul Holes]

Kate's most recent book, all that is a Gilded Age Story of Murder and the Race to Decode the Criminal Mind, is available now.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

And Paul's bestselling memoir, My Life Solving America's, cold cases is also available now.

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