Take the Wheel PT 1

Summary

Buried Bones Podcast – "Take the Wheel Pt. 1"

Date: May 7, 2025
Hosts: Kate Winkler Dawson (journalist, true crime author), Paul Holes (retired cold case investigator)

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Episode Overview

In this first installment of a two-part series, Kate and Paul delve into the mysterious 1935 death of Hollywood icon Thelma Todd. Framed by the glamour and secrecy of Golden Age Hollywood, the episode dissects the circumstances surrounding Todd’s sudden death in her luxury car, found in a garage above her seaside café in Pacific Palisades. Leveraging modern forensic theory alongside rich historical context, the hosts probe whether Todd’s demise was suicide, accident, or something more sinister—setting the stage for a deep-dive into Hollywood conspiracy, conflicting autopsies, and gendered power dynamics of the time.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introducing the Case and Thelma Todd

• Background:

  • The setting is Pacific Palisades, California, 1935—an exclusive enclave for Hollywood’s elite (17:14).
  • Thelma Todd: A major film star at 29, known for “Lucy and Ethel”-style slapstick, 120 features and shorts, business ventures, and strong personal presence (17:14–24:25).
  • Todd was pioneering in branding—her “Sidewalk Cafe” used her name, unusual for the time (23:32).
  • Kate watched Todd’s films to “feel a deeper connection to our victim,” underscoring the importance of victimology in historical cold cases (19:58).

  "Who the victim is...sometimes can lead to the investigation to determine who’s responsible."
  —Paul Holes (19:58)

2. The Day of Discovery

• Sequence of Events:
  • Monday, December 16, 1935: Todd’s assistant/housekeeper, Mae, finds Todd dead—slumped over the wheel of her luxury Lincoln in the garage above the house (17:14, 38:15).
  • Mae checks several places, not alarmed initially due to Todd’s active nightlife—but grows concerned when Todd misses work at her bustling café (24:53–27:46).
• Witness & Victimology Discussion:
  • Paul emphasizes the role of those closest to the victim (“law enforcement needs to do a better job listening to the families”—27:46).
  • Importance of routine: Mae’s knowledge of Todd’s habits helps construct timelines and signals when something is “off” (27:46).

3. The Setting and Key Relationships

• Physical Geography:
  • The café/apartment is at the bottom of a steep hillside; Roland West’s house (director, Todd’s lover) is at the top—a difficult climb for Todd, who had a heart condition (34:45).
  • The complex living arrangements:
    • Thelma Todd co-owns the apartment above the café with director/lover Roland West, who still lives with his wife, actress Jewel Carmen. All are business partners (33:11–34:45).
    • Paul flags the "triangle" as potentially a motive source or red flag (33:11).

4. Discovery & Forensic Observations

• The Crime Scene:
  • Todd is discovered wearing her Saturday night gown and mink, with jewelry, consistent with last being seen Saturday night (42:23).
  • Car is off, key in “on” position, unaltered valuables, garage doors closed.
• Immediate Theories:
  • Broken nose and bleeding: Police theorize she fainted and hit her face on the steering wheel (39:10).
  • Paul lists possible causes for flushed complexion and injuries: “Could be carbon monoxide, heart failure, or a violent act like strangulation” (39:59).
• Notable Quote:

  "It is unusual to see a homicide victim just seated in a car, slumped over the steering wheel, if it’s not a gunshot victim."
  —Paul Holes (41:10)

5. Autopsy & Medical Details

• Key Findings:
  • Dr. JP Sampson examines body—concludes death about 12 hours prior (46:21).
  • Coroner offers different estimate: up to 30 hours dead (50:28).
  • Autopsy: Todd’s organs and blood are "scarlet red," and her blood’s 75–80% saturated with carbon monoxide—consistent with carbon monoxide poisoning, not trauma (47:44, 48:11).
• Scientific Context:
  • Paul explains that with old combustion engines, cars will cut off once air is depleted—supporting accidental carbon monoxide poisoning (43:40–45:41).
• Notable Quote:

  "This is almost diagnostic...the question is, is it accidental, is it natural, or was there violence that left her unconscious and then inside the garage?"
  —Paul Holes (48:11)

6. Emerging Questions & Surprises

• Clothing, Timeline, and Access:
  • Clothes unchanged since Saturday night—challenges the time-of-death estimates.
  • Todd had a heart condition, would not have climbed the hill (34:45, 56:04).
  • A driver dropped her at the bottom of the hill after her Saturday night event—so how did her car end up at the top garage, and how did she get there? (56:04)
  • Todd had recently received threats, suggesting possible motive for foul play.
• Manner of Death:
  • Paul: While homicide seems less likely based purely on autopsy, “all types of manners of death are on the table”—suicide, accident, natural causes, homicide (49:49).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On working cold cases:

  "Victimology is huge... sometimes can lead to the investigation to determine who's responsible.”
  —Paul Holes (19:58)

• On Thelma’s business sense:

  “She was one of the first celebrities to use her brand... That was not usual.”
  —Kate Winkler Dawson (23:32)

• On autopsy clues:

  “If the pathologist is doing proper documentation, if he's saying she's been dead for 30 hours, then he should be listing the characteristics.”
  —Paul Holes (54:38)

• On all possible theories:

  “Fundamentally, you've got a fractured nose, bleeding out of the mouth and carbon monoxide poisoning... all types of manners of death potentially are on the table.”
  —Paul Holes (49:49)

• On the mystery's complexity:

  “There are a lot of suspicions about her death. There were a lot of things that investigators thought were really odd and her mother really thought was odd.”
  —Kate Winkler Dawson (54:56)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Thelma Todd’s career, personality, and business ventures: 17:14 – 24:25
• Todd’s relationships and living/ownership arrangements: 31:21 – 34:45
• Discovery of the body and interpreting the scene: 36:20 – 42:23
• Garage, car, and engine technicalities: 43:40 – 45:41
• Autopsy and the carbon monoxide conclusion: 47:44 – 49:49
• Discussing timeline uncertainty and possible scenarios: 50:28 – 52:39
• Cliffhanger—Could it be suicide, accident, or murder? 54:56 – end

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Tone & Style

Conversational, accessible yet professional; respectful of the victim while maintaining the classic “whodunit” intrigue. Kate brings warmth, historical context, and empathy; Paul provides methodical modern forensics insights, cutting through speculation with grounded expertise.

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Summary & What’s Next

This episode lays out the complicated web around Thelma Todd’s final days—her Hollywood stardom, layered personal relationships, and the forensic ambiguities of her death. With evidence pointing toward carbon monoxide poisoning but plenty of murkiness around her last movements (particularly how she and her car ended up at Roland West’s garage), Kate and Paul agree that all theories remain on the table. The stage is set for the next episode to tackle further investigation—the origins of the threats against Todd, the movements of those close to her, and whether justice can still be found for a case nearly a century old.

"The plot thickens." —Paul Holes (56:06)

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For diagrams, maps, and pictures, visit @buriedbonespod on Instagram.

Transcript

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[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I always feel like I have to.

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[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I think everyone can benefit from therapy.

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[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I'm a journalist who spent the last 25 years writing about true crime.

[Paul Holes]

And I'm Paul Holes, a retired cold case investigator who's worked some of America's most complicated cases and solved them.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most compelling true crimes.

[Paul Holes]

And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring new insights to old mysteries.

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Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime cases through a 21st century lens.

[Paul Holes]

Some are solved and some are cold. Very cold.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

This is Buried Bones. Hey, Paul.

[Paul Holes]

Hey, Kate. How's it going with you?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

It's going well, and I'll tell you why. I want to tell you about an episode that I don't know if you've heard yet that I recorded for Wicked Words. I feel like I've interviewed some big names, including you, of course, like a David Grann. And, you know, all of these I feel like really big nonfiction folks. And then across my email comes, do you want an interview with Marcia Clark?

[Paul Holes]

Oh, okay.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

So I was just awestruck. I really was. And she could not be sweeter. And the interview is fantastic. You should listen to it. It is not about O.J.

[Paul Holes]

Okay.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Nor did she want, I don't know if she ever wants to talk about O.J. simpson ever again. I think she says she sort of blocked it out of her mind, essentially. Where were you when that case was going on? Were you in Northern California or Central or where were you?

[Paul Holes]

No, I was working for the sheriff's crime lab at the time. In fact, I was somewhat following the case. It was a big deal in forensics because of all the evidence, particularly DNA that was being presented. And so we were following it pretty closely. In fact, I actually faxed information down to the LAPD crime lab because they're criminalists, obviously didn't know what he was talking about when it came to crime scene photography. And the defense was really exploiting him on the stand. And I was like, okay, you need to really understand how focal length with camera lenses can really change the front to rear aspect ratios. So I compiled all this information and faxed it down. But I distinctly remember that case. Of course I remember Marcia Clark. In fact, I've spoken with Marcia over the phone. She was getting involved with TV production, and I'm not sure if she still is. Or not. But, you know, we had chatted a little bit, then I actually sat next to Christopher Darden for dinner. I think it was an award ceremony at a crime con, you know, so I got to chat with him a little bit. Real nice guy. And. And of course, you know, they. They have this whole OJ Trial hanging over their heads for, you know, forever, in essence, you know, But I. I most certainly understand sort of how things kind of went awry for them and don't put a whole heck of a lot of personal blame on either one of them.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah, absolutely. I read there was an article, and I think the headline was something like, marcia Clark has been absolved. And it was kind of how she's gone from. I don't remember her being as villainized as this magazine. And a lot of other media has said back in 95, I was too busy working in a news station to really even pay attention to all that. But now she's become this feminist icon, which she is. After talking to her, it's probably my favorite interview of all the interviews. Sorry, everybody else that I've ever. Including you, I've ever done on Wicked Words. Because she's so engaging and much like you, you know, she had the case. She had O.J. simpson, you had the Golden State Killer. And she certainly could have taken money back from a big, you know, book deal that she had and then just sort of gone off. But she has just stayed so active. She has novels. She's got now two nonfiction books. And I was talking to her about. Set in 1953. As you said, she does TV stuff all the time, so she really has stayed active. And it was just so interesting to talk with her about the case that she was talking about on my show.

[Paul Holes]

Yeah, you know, I've completely lost track of her, to be frank, you know, so I didn't know. I don't know what she's been up to. So this is the first I'm hearing.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah, we talked a little bit about the misogyny that was happening, which was pervasive, of course. And she was told to soften her hair, and she was told to wear, you know, kind of less, I guess masculine was the insinuation. Clothing, which she said, this is what I wear to court. This isn't masculine to me, to use a softer tone. So there was so much stuff, you know, looking back on it, she just said it just takes so long to process things like that, that this is stuff that you're just trying to do your job. And that's the kind of thing that happens. She was investigating a case from 53 that the district attorney at the time was heading up this case. It was a huge murder trial of a botched home invas. And she said that this district attorney was an icon to her when she was working in LA as a prosecutor. Everybody knew who this guy was long after he was dead. And then she said, I looked in the case, and it was awful. He was awful. He did so many legal things then and now. And she said, it's really dispiriting to have this person in your head, like who you're trying to strive to be. And then when she actually looked and worked one of his cases, you know, 60, 70 years later, to just see how many times he failed and. And it was just really disheartening for her. It was interesting.

[Paul Holes]

Yeah.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah.

[Paul Holes]

Because I'm thinking 1953, so we're talking just a handful of years after the Black Dahlia case.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah.

[Paul Holes]

Out there in la, you know, so that kind of puts in perspective, because I've kind of dug into the Black Dolly a little bit from the investigative side, you know, and of course, law enforcement was, you know, so, I don't know, primordial, if you will, relative to today in terms of how they handled investigations and crime scenes and forensics. That case, of course, never to trial. But I can only imagine her assessment of sort of the legal mind that she held in great and high regard and now seeing. Oh, well, maybe not so.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah, absolutely. It was putting plants in jail cells with a young woman, not taking an account into her background, and then ultimately issuing a death sentence to a woman who was executed for essentially being a decoy. And that was it. And I said, would you do that now? And she said, no. Now they're accessory to murder. Accessory after the fact are all things, you know. But she got looped in with the other two robbers who ended up killing somebody, and she just said it was. It's a little stunning. And the district attorney, who she respected so much, could have said, you know, sort of mitigating circumstances with leniency. She was saying, with leniency. And he didn't do it. I mean, and this. This young woman really did very little. She knew something was going to happen, but she didn't suspect a murder would happen at all. And then you're executing a mother of three or four people.

[Paul Holes]

Yeah. You know, and it really underscores, you know, the power that the elected DA has, you know, and I've been in the room where the death penalty is being debated for a particular case. And of course, that's led by the elected da, and then the prosecutor who's handling the case presents the case. And now you have very senior prosecutors, chief of investigations. I happen to be in a couple of these during the course of my career with the DA's office. And today it is taken very seriously. And most certainly, you know, this system scenario you're talking about where sounds like she was an accessory in California, maybe this felony murder aspect is what they used to go after her, but in essence, to apply the death penalty as if she's the one that's actually committing the murder. That sounds way over the top.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah. And I mean, he nicknamed her the defendant Bloody Babs in the courtroom, in front of the jury. And I said, is that legal? I feel like every other question was, is that legal? Is that legal now? Is that legal now? Every answer was like, no, no, no, no. And that's the issue.

[Paul Holes]

Well, the defense would. Would object. You know, that's prejudicial. That's influencing the jury.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

It was startling to me. So, anyway, Marcia Clark, I am a huge fan, and I even said it from the beginning. I said, I don't think I use the word fangirl, but I'm really going to try to not gush. And she said, well, thank you. I listen to your show, so very cool. Marcia Clark is a celebrity in my little world of celebrities. So I thought you'd find that interesting. And we are hanging out in Southern California, in the Pacific Palisades, actually, for this story. But this is not 1953. This is 1935.

[Paul Holes]

Okay.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

To me, I think you're gonna find this interesting enough. We're making this a double, and it involves Hollywood and an actress who I found so interesting that I actually watched one of her films from 1930. I think it was from 33 or so. So there's a lot happening with this story.

[Paul Holes]

No, sounds cool. Now, I don't think I've ever been in Pacific Palisades, but of course, I'm very much aware of it.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah, yeah, of course. Especially with the fires earlier this year. And I had been thinking about that. So I feel like every time I have a case where I see that phrase of that neighborhood, Pacific Palisades, I'm always gonna think about the fire. So we are really going far back. We're looking at 90 years ago. So let's go ahead and set the scene so we are in 1935. Remind me, black Dalia Happen. Because I actually have not looked at the case at all. I would love for you and I to talk about it, and I think we will. You're going to have to bring it up if you think it reminds you of this in any way.

[Paul Holes]

Okay. Well, Black dahlia was late 40s. I believe it was 1947. But right now I'm a little fuzzy on the exact year that it happened. I actually interviewed. There was an author, this Steve Hodel, who's former LAPD Homicide, Robbery Homicide. And he's written several books on the Black Dahlia. And he's. He's claiming his father is the offender in the Black Dahlia case. I'm not convinced, let's just put it that way. But it is a case that I'm highly interested in. And I actually did reach out to a professional friend at lada's office saying I'd be willing to help. And basically I got back from LAPD and the LADA's office. Well, not at this time.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

They have other priorities from something that was 80 years ago. I guess you're right. It was in 47. Black Dahlia was in 47.

[Paul Holes]

Yeah. Well, basically they said that they were looking at some things from the case, you know, so it sounds like they have an interest in pursuing it. But of course a 1947 case will take the back burner when anything else pops up.

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[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I always feel like I have to.

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[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Well, this is a confusing case. I don't know if it's a cold case. So this is 1935, the morning of Monday, December 16th. There is a housekeeper named May and she's a little bit more of an assistant, I think, to an actress, movie star really. I'm not even gonna say actress, movie star named Thelma Todd. And you know, I really was curious about Thelma. I told you I watched one of her movies and I would say movie star. I mean, she really has a presence. She is very well known and I'm gonna show you a picture of her shortly, which sometimes I show you the people who are involved, sometimes I don't. If I think it's relevant, I'll show it to you and it'll be relevant, I think in this case. So her housekeeper shows up. She is at a house in the Pacific Palisades. As I told you, this is a neighborhood of la, if nobody knows that. It's a seaside community that over the past decade or so has emerged as a secluded neighborhood for movie stars and studio executives and they build these incredible Mediterranean style homes so they can get away from the hustle and bustle of Hollywood. It's very, very hilly. So the housekeeper Mae works for 29 year old Thelma Todd. She is a movie star. And I'm just gonna jump right to it. She's our victim. I think I wanna give you kind of a lot of context about her upfront because I do think it's relevant, especially with witnesses coming up. So she is not a small time actress. She was in 120 feature films, feature films and a lot of shorts over the last nine years. So she starred with names you're gonna recognize, right? Bus, the Marx Brothers, Laurel and Hardy, and then a whole list of people who I'm pretty sure are famous, but I had not heard of. She was slapstick. That was her specialty. And that's why I wanted to watch one of her films. So there's a film called the Tin man and it's a short and it was really good. I watched it on YouTube and she is very Lucy of I Love Lucy. She's paired up with a woman in the scene that I was watching. You know, they're very, very Lucy and Ethel. And so, so I watched it before I really dug into the story. Just because any opportunity, I know you do this too. Any opportunity I have to feel like I have a deeper connection with our victim I wanted to take. And so, you know, it just kind of left me sad more than anything. But sad's appropriate when you're looking into an investigation. Also, I assume I know you want to know everything about the victim. I'm not sure this movie that I watched was relevant to this case. Actually, no, it wasn't, but I just felt like I really wanted to see. Do you feel like that too?

[Paul Holes]

Well, you know, with the cases that I work, you know, one of the first things that I do is try to learn as much about the victim as I possibly can. You know, and I've said this over and over, victimology is huge. You know, so who the victim is, what the victim is up to, you know, where the victim is going, you know, all these circumstances surrounding the victim sometimes can lead to the investigation to determine who's the one that's the offender, who's the one that's responsible for, let's say, if it's a homicide, homicide. So that's, that's important, you know, for the cases that I primarily focused in on, you know, out of the 60s and the 70s, you know, oftentimes I didn't have video of the victims. Like, nowadays, you know, if somebody ends up being a victim, there's all this social media stuff that's been posted, and you can really see the victim in life.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah.

[Paul Holes]

In this case, you know, 1935 with Thelma Todd, you know, this is probably an unusual circumstance where now, you know, a homicide victim, you. You see in life now she's portraying somebody. She's an actress. Right. So it's not necessarily her and her personality, but it's still a living person that, you know, ended up dying for one reason or another.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah. One thing about Thelma that I think would occur with any Hollywood actress or actor, anybody who's well known, is this would be somebody who strangers would recognize. You know, we're often talking about that in all of my cases. It feels like I hear the same thing over and over again. Especially in the 1800s. It looks like, yeah, that guy looked like your suspect. But Thelma Todd was. And I'm gonna show you the photo in a second. Thelma Todd would have stood out even in Pacific Palisades at this time. So that's what makes, to me, this story really interesting, too.

[Paul Holes]

Well, it sounds like she was a highly successful actor, you know, so she was celebrity famous. You know, the name is tickling my brain, you know, but I'm not picturing who she is.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Well, you can picture her now, and this is a headshot. Let me know what you think.

[Paul Holes]

Oh, yeah. One of the things that I do that people might think is somewhat strange is there's a YouTube channel called Hollywood Graveyard, and it's very well done. And this guy, he goes to the various cemeteries around, and he's now doing it all over the world. But he started out there in the LA area, and he, you know, tell stories about the various celebrities that are buried or interred in some manner at these various cemeteries. And I believe that he's covered Thelma Todd, if she's out there, that she looks very familiar.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah. So Jean Harlow was considered the original Bombshell. And Bombshell now, I think, would be considered an insult for a woman or, you know, dismissive and really concentrating on her looks. But. But Thelma Todd was in that category for Hollywood in the 1930s. She was definitely considered the blonde Bombshell. I'm gonna skip right over that and just say she was an excellent actress, obviously incredibly successful. And she was also somebody who had businesses. And that plays into it a little bit here, too. Where we are when all of this stuff starts to happen with Thelma is at the time of her Death. She was shooting a movie. And she was starring in two Hal Roach films that were about to be released. One was called All American Toothache. I watched part of that. And another one was called Bohemian Girl. And that's on my list. So she lives in an apartment above the restaurant that she owns. She runs this place. It's called Thelma Todd's Sidewalk Cafe. And it's on what we now call the Pacific coast highway, right on the ocean. So this is sort of her retirement plan. And she was one of the very first celebrities to sort of use her brand. You know, put her actual name on a cafe. Rather than just calling it the Sidewalk Cafe. She put her name on it. And that was not usual. So that's what we mean by. She was sort of innovative and somebody who really wanted to be aggressive. Recognizing that at age 29 in the 1930s. She could have been not far another decade off of her career. Unfortunately, I don't know. But she was planning ahead. So now we've got a Hollywood actress who also seems to have some money. And she has an investment in a business. And it is well known. So that's where we stand right now.

[Paul Holes]

Okay. Yeah. So in essence, this celebrity aspect is, of course, going to draw attention. And just from her, you know, the prolific nature of the number of films she's been in. You know, people that may have bad intent, of course, are going to assume she's got a lot of money. And it sounds like with some of the business aspects, she's utilizing her money wisely. So she even has more money than maybe the average actress at that time.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yep. So let's talk about her as a person. So Mae, the housekeeper, wants to find out where Thelma is. But she also kind of understands that Thelma is a young woman who likes to go out a lot. She stays out late at night. She might not come home. And so I don't think she's particularly alarmed just yet. It's not out of character for her to sleep away from home, especially on a weekend. She has a really active social life. And we have some more details on what her social life was like coming out. May looks to this apartment. There's no one there. Then she goes to the house up the hill. And this is where Thelma stays. Sometimes she is not there either. Now, here is just sort of a theoretical question, I guess. May has not decided to call the police yet. And, you know, I know it's because she's thinking in her head, well, she doesn't have to report to me when she's doing what and when. But at the same time, you know, at what point should somebody call the police? Is it if somebody has not come home and it's completely out of their character? I just don't know what. At what point do you sort of draw that line? It's intimidating to call the police, Paul, to me, at least, because, you know, if somebody walks through the door, you feel stupid. You have to explain stuff. So I think probably a lot of people feel like that.

[Paul Holes]

Yeah, I can see where there would be some reservation. You know, it's so variable as to when somebody should call the police. You know, here we. With May, it sounds like. I mean, you described her as a housekeeper, but it sounds like she was more of a. Like an assistant, you know, helping Thelma with all her day in and day out activities, coordinating things, et cetera. So more of like an executive assistant. And so I would say, you know, under that set of circumstances, you know, it sounds like Thelma not coming back to the apartment that particular night.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

It's a Sunday night, and, you know, we're going to find out that she was last seen Saturday. Okay, so as far as May knew, Thelma went out and I'll tell you with who in a little bit, Saturday night. She hasn't talked to her since. And it's Monday morning. And she. I think she's thinking, well, I don't know, because it's been Sunday and Monday. I'm surprised she's not here Monday morning because she would have been working at the cafe and doing stuff at the cafe.

[Paul Holes]

I would say, you know, May's insight into what Thelma's normal routine would be because of May's position with Thelma where she's now seeing Thelma is not doing what she normally would, you know, now it's stepping outside the routine, depending on, like, if Thelma is not showing up at the restaurant, that the restaurant ends up having to be closed or whatever, or Thelma has some sort of meeting with a network executive or whatever it is, and May's going, oh, Thelma wouldn't do this. Now, at this point, then there should be conflict, concern.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah.

[Paul Holes]

Because now this is outside of the. The victimology that we know of for Thelma, that May knows for Thelman. And I would say that's. That's kind of the same for anytime somebody goes missing. You know, law enforcement needs to do a better job listening to the families, because the families go, this isn't right. Right. But oftentimes they're reporting an adult missing. And so many times when that happens, law enforcement, you know, goes well, well this person has just left and they have an absolute right to leave. And we're not going to spend resources to try to track that person down until there's a set of circumstances in which now we think there's an endangered aspect to this missing adult. But with Thelma right now it seems like Mae is recognizing Thelma would not normally be missing at this particular time during the day.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Absolutely.

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[Kate Winkler Dawson]

So May knows there are a few more places she can check. She's not in the apartment down below. She's not up the hill at this place in this, this is a big hill too. You know, where she would kind of go back and forth between staying at the house at the top of the hill, staying in her apartment. So Mae decides she needs to look a few more places before we talk about, you know, where else she looks. I wanna say that the reason that Thelma stays at the house on the hill sometimes is that she's been dating a movie director for quite a while. His name is Roland west and he's the one who owns that house. Nobody's at this house. And Mae has apparently a key to be able to get in. Roland and Thelma. This is where things get a little complicated. Roland and Thelma own the apartment above the restaurant together, but they have separate bedrooms which are divided by a sliding wooden door. And Roland is still technically married to another actress named Jewel. Carmen Jewel is not a big Hollywood star. She's a small time actress. And it sounds like her career acting might be somewhat over. So she is married to Roland and technically, while Thelma owns part of the restaurant Thelma Todd's Cafe, Roland and Jewel together own part of it also. It's a little murky what this whole relationship thing is like, but it doesn't sound like there have been public blowoffs. They're not in the press. It seems like whatever is happening seems, seems kind of cordial in a way, or maybe they've worked out some kind of an agreement. But now you've got Thelma involved with another Hollywood actress and then a director, and everybody seems to be kind of sharing residences. It kind of gets odd after this.

[Paul Holes]

Yeah, you know, of course, you know, this sounds like the typical lover's triangle, you know, in which you could potentially have jealousies arise. And it really does come down to, you know, what does Jewelry, Roland's wife, know about his relationship with Thelma? Is this something that she has accepted? You know, so of course, early investigations into the victimology. And once this is found out, then it's, you know, talking to Roland, talking to Jewel and okay, what's going on Here, you know, is this something that's just an open type of marriage, and this was an accepted relationship. There's financial aspects that bind the three together up and beyond the relationships, you know, with the ownership of the restaurant, et cetera. So that's interesting.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

What do you think about the separate bedrooms thing? Is that surprising to you, knowing he's married? And I do think Jules stays there.

[Paul Holes]

I don't know. I don't think I. You know, I'm not overly surprised by that. I think it just depends on what Thelma and Roland's relationship really is like, you know, and it could just be a convenience aspect, you know, whether maybe these rooms above of the restaurant are very small, you know, or they just prefer to sleep separately when they're not engaging together, you know, I don't know. You know, I don't put a lot of weight on that right now. You know, I think just the dynamics of the Thelma, Roland and Jewel triangle, of course, is. Is. Is a red flag, at least at this stage.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Okay, let me tell you about the connection and how you would travel from the apartment, which is by the ocean, up to this hill to get to Roland's beautiful house. The restaurant and the apartment are directly downhill from Roland's house. And I will have two incredibly confusing maps for you in just a few minutes. Thank you. You're welcome for that. Sometimes I think that these are awful maps. And then you look at them and go, well, this is the best thing I've ever seen. Kate, thank you. Bring me more of these terrible maps. So we'll see what you say. Okay. But to get from the apartment or the cafe up to Roland's place in a car, there are a lot of little hairpin turns that you would have to get to. It's not easy. It's not a straight shot. And then if you're going by foot, it would have been a hell of a climb. It's several steep staircases in the hillside. Thelma and I'll tell you a little bit more about this in a second, had developed a heart condition. And May used to drive in her car to get to the top if she wanted to spend the night at Roland's house. And then Thelma would drive down, or maybe Mae would walk up. And it didn't seem like a huge deal for May, but it was substantial. I don't know if you want to see that now, but it does come into play about Thelma and how she would have gone from one place to the other if she had a heart condition or we could get to her. What happens to her?

[Paul Holes]

Yeah, let's get to sort of the heart of the matter and then we can expand out.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

There's no sign of Thelma anywhere. May looks in the house's two car garage. So I think I said this before, on most days, Mae is gonna park her own car in this garage. So she'll drive up, she'll park her car or walk up or whatever, and then she'll drive Thelma's car to the bottom of the cliff where the cafe and the apartment are so that Thelma doesn't have to make this trek because she fainted on the set of a film. And her mom says the doctor diagnosed her with this heart condition. So what would that be? Is that just a slow heart rate or low? I don't know what that would even be. It could be anything, I guess, just.

[Paul Holes]

Low blood pressure, you know. You know, she stood up too quickly and, you know, so it just depends. But of course, you know, the heart condition is something that has to be weighed in, in terms of, you know, what happens to Thelma down the road. You know, is this something where she could have had a fatal incident and is found dead? Right. Right. Now, of course, I know nothing about what's going on with Thelma.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

So in the garage, Mae finds Thelma's total kick ass car. And I liked it so much that I included not it because I couldn't find a photo of it, but I included this type of car. So you probably know it because you're a smarty about cars. This is a chocolate brown Lincoln Phantom. Have you heard of that?

[Paul Holes]

Oh, yeah, I've heard of that for sure.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I just wanted to show it to you. I mean, this car. And not to talk about her looks, but she would have looked gorgeous in this car. And she had a driver much of the time. I mean, this is what I mean by later on when we have witnesses to different things. She would have stood out on so many different levels. And I know that this is still Hollywood, but this was a beautiful car.

[Paul Holes]

Yeah. No, that's a head turner. Thelma's a head turner. So of course, you know, she's, you know, she's driving around in a vehicle like this. She's not trying to be disgusting. And you know, she's like, here I am.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Okay. Mae sees her car. She is alarmed because she couldn't find Thelma anywhere else. She looks inside the car and this is where we see Thelma's body. Mae does not examine her at all. She just sees her slumped over. And she gets very upset, of course. She runs down to the cafe, flying down those steep steps, she finds a general manager.

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He calls the police.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

So this is all Monday morning, and she was last seen Saturday night, as far as we know right now. So I can tell you what her body looked like, but I also can immediately talk about the autopsy, too. So you tell me. I know you like autopsy stuff, but what do you think?

[Paul Holes]

Yeah, well, let's get into the crime scene first in terms of understanding, you know, her body in context, you know, insit in the back of this car and then go into the autopsy.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

So she is found slumped over the steering wheel. We find out that her nose is broken and she was bleeding from the mouth, but police think it's because she passed out and hit her face against the steering wheel. I think one of the reasons is this is an interesting bit here. Mae said the garage was closed and that when she saw Thelma and she saw, you know, a little bit of bleeding and she's laying over the steering wheel, that she was unusually red. Her face was really red. Let's kind of start there. They're not saying trauma, and their immediate response is not, this is, you know, somebody who's been beaten up. But what do you kind of think so far, the way that I've laid it out, or do you need more info?

[Paul Holes]

Well, I think with sort of the thumbnail sketch, broken nose, bleeding out of the mouth, mouth which, you know, possibly can occur as a result of, you know, the trauma to the nose. In terms of evaluating the fracture to the nose, you know, is, you know, how much damage is truly there? Is it consistent with somebody who's just now passes out and nose hits a hard steering wheel, or is there more damage to that? And so that'd be something that would be determined at autopsy as well as what other injuries she has on her body. You know, the red head kind of. It sounds like her face is flush. And, you know, there's a variety of reasons why that can occur. You know, one of the first things, just due to the context of where she's found in a car inside a closed garage, is is it possible that there's a carbon monoxide poisoning? Accidental, potentially. You know, she was sitting in that. That car for too long. Is the car still running when May, you know, know, enters in? Does she detect something's wrong? Is the car completely out of gas, but the. The ignition is turned like it's still running? You know, then that might suggest that, you know, she, for whatever reason, drove into the Garage, closed the garage and stayed in there too long and then ultimately succumbed to carbon monoxide. So there's that aspect, you know, is there potentially. Does the heart condition weigh in? Is there a circulatory type of issue that's causing the red flushing? And then, of course, there's. There's different acts of violence, such as strangulation, you know, which could cause that. That red flushing. So at this point, I think, you know, the investigators are. They're evaluating what's going on. It is unusual to see a homicide victim just seated in a car, slumped over the steering wheel if it's not a gunshot victim. You know, we often see that today with shootings, but I'm assuming right now she's not a gunshot victim or a stabbing victim or something like that. And so now they're assessing things and reconstructing, and they're probably going, this very likely could just be an accidental death or it could be a natural if she had. If the heart condition weighed in as to the reason why she, you know, ended up deceased inside this vehicle.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah, and I think there's a lot of speculation about that. Was it the heart condition that contributed to this? Did she climb up all of those stairs herself? And then something happened. She got into the car. So let me just tell you a couple of facts that are important, and then we can get to the autopsy. Number one, Mae saw Thelma Saturday night before she went to an event. And she said she's wearing the same clothing. She was wearing a mauve and silver dress and a mink coat and lots of expensive jewelry. She had an expensive handbag with her. None of it was touched. It's all there. So, you know, at first blush, she's been there since Saturday night, early Sunday morning, whenever, you know, she left this event. So they're trying to get a timeline together, but that's going to come into question soon. The other note is that police do find the key in the ignition to her fancy car. It was turned to the on position position, but the car was not running. So this is out of my pay grade. So I'm just going to tell you what it is and you can tell me what you think. This is a combustible engine. So there is no catalytic converter. I don't even know what that was. I didn't until I had to pay for one. And then I found out really quick what it is.

[Paul Holes]

They're expensive because of the precious metals inside there.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I mean, I think it's the worst thing you can pay for. So I Can thank my kids for all the driving with that new Cadillac convert. He said, how did you put this many miles on this car? It's only a couple years old. So the police say that this is because the car's engine, because it's a combustible engine, needs oxygen to run. So if something happens and the car is turned on, once the garage has filled up with carbon monoxide, there's no more oxygen, and the engine would just cut off. Does that sound right?

[Paul Holes]

Yes, it does.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

What happens now with the engine? First of all, what kind of engines do we have now? I know we should know. I should know know that it's the.

[Paul Holes]

Same, you know, in terms of. For gasoline engines. In essence, they're just combustion engines. And so, you know, they're fundamentally operate the same way as this particular engine, just obviously more advanced. You need oxygen for fire. Well, that's in essence, what happens inside the cylinder of, you know, one of the chambers within these engines. And, you know, this. This particular car possibly had anywhere from eight to 12 cylinders. And there's a spark plug in each cylinder, and then there's a source of fuel that sprays into the cylinder. And so now you have this gas vapor. And then as the cylinder comes up and compresses that gas, there's a spark from the spark plug that ignites the gas. And in order for that gas to actually combust to produce pressure to force a cylinder down, which ultimately is the mechanism that is translated into being able to move the vehicle. Once there's no oxygen, that combustion engine can't operate anymore. So if that garage filled up with sufficient carbon monoxide, I would say, yeah, theoretically, it's possible that the engine just died and had been left running for a period of time.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Okay, well, let's keep that in mind, because, you know, there are a lot of theories that are going to be floating around 1935, Louisiana, pretty soon. Soon, there is someone who comes, a doctor who comes and examines her body. His name is JP Sampson. When Dr. Sampson looks at Thelma's body, he says she has been dead for about 12 hours. Now, I don't know how he determines that. I don't think they use liver temperature, but maybe it was rigor. But just doing math, let's say this happens at 9am that puts her death at 9 Sunday night. But she's wearing the clothes from Saturday night.

[Paul Holes]

So, you know, one of the things I want to address about her clothes, you know, Mae sees her leaving Saturday night in those clothes. What we don't know is, is it Possible that she stayed in those clothes alive for how long period of time or did she redress into those clothes? You know, and those are the clothes she came back to Roland's place in in this vehicle. So it's kind of hard to draw a firm conclusion that whatever happened to Thelma happened Saturday night because we just don't know anything about her state of dress. And, you know, how long she had those clothes on before she ended up dying. So it's interesting, I would say what you could conclude is while she did not not get back to her residence or a location where she had clothes that she would be wanting to change into, you know, that would be part of it. To try to timeline exactly when something happened to Thelma based on her dress would be tough.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yes. I have had times in my youth where I have been in the same clothing for 36 hours. And I wasn't camping, I was living in New York. So, yes, we'll see. I don't trust the 12 hour timeline either. I guess we'll just see how this progresses.

[Paul Holes]

Well, and even the pathologist saying she's been dead for 12 hours, that's just a rough, rough guess.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

So we've got the autopsy. Thelma's brain and organs are described in the autopsy report as scarlet red of blood. And her body is also discolored red. Her blood is found to have a 75 to 80% saturation of carbon monoxide.

[Paul Holes]

Oxide, which is classic. You know, this is when you see somebody like this. And at autopsy, the pathologist is immediately going, okay, we've got carbon monoxide. You know, this is even before there's any type of toxicology testing going on. It's. This is almost diagnostic, you know, and the question is, is, you know, at this point, okay, is this, is it accidental, is it natural? Or is there a chance that there is violence inflicted on her to a point to where she is unconscious and is left inside this garage? And now the carbon monoxide is building up from the running car and then she succumbs to the carbon monoxide poisoning. But the reality is that there was a violent act at the hands of another. So too early to really draw a conclusion, but most certainly at this point, unless you tell me of other significant injuries to her. At this point, carbon monoxide sounds like the primary cause of death.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yes. And there are no other significant injuries other than what I had mentioned before, a little bleeding at the mouth and a broken nose, which investigators conclude very quickly is because, you know, when carbon monoxide started to take effect, that her face hit the steering wheel, which would have been a very heavy steering wheel, a wood probably, or mahogany, I don't know what it would have been. And broke her nose. The question I think that is going to come is, is this suicide? Is this an accident? How would this have been an accident or is this something else? Because there are a lot of complicated things happening right now.

[Paul Holes]

It appears that the medical findings aren't differentiating the manner of death. So there is no sign of strangulation. There's no defensive injuries. Obviously I've already asked. There's no stab wounds, no gunshot wounds, et cetera. So fundamentally, you've got a fractured nose, bleeding out of the mouth and carbon monoxide poisoning. Basically. All types of manners of death potentially are on the table. Though homicide kind of becomes less likely, but not eliminated based on these circumstances.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I'm going to talk in a little bit about what she did that night, who she was with and the circumstances about why homicide definitely needs to stay on the table. The coroner said there was Dr. Samson, but there's also a coroner, a separate person who said after his examination that Thelma had been dead more like 30 hours when she was found. Which of course is much closer to the Saturday night mark. Again, what's reliable here and what isn't? I don't have notes on what they were using. I think it was probably rigor. I don't think they were using liver to temperature at this point.

[Paul Holes]

You know, rigor would be part of it. You know, that's one of the first things that the pathologists are going to note in terms of how long the body has been dead. You know, the body temperature, you know, this was occurring mid December, you know, but you're also dealing with LA on the coastal front there. You know, it's maybe 70 degrees in the wintertime at times. You know, it's not excessively hot, it's not excessively cold. My assessment, what I would want to be taking a look at that. You know, they're. They're drawing a conclusion that she hit her nose on the steering wheel, if that's what happened. You know, you, you imagine her head going forward, she's basically collapsing and probably doesn't revive after that point. Right. So now are the. The blood flows out of the nose, the blood patterns inside the vehicle consistent with that last movement of her body that caused the bleeding to occur, or is there blood in discrete locations that would not line up with this idea of just slumping forward, as if she. Let's say somebody punched her in the Nose, she gets knocked out. And then that person puts her into a seated position in the driver's seat, you know, and leaves the vehicle running inside this closed garage. You know, that's, that's where now you have to start really paying attention to the details. And I'm not sure you have those details.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Well, let's see. We do have a lot of information about what she did that night. And you're right, like more theories and maybe a little bit more. More information. Do you think that carbon monoxide poisoning would throw off time of death estimations at all or.

[Paul Holes]

No, generally not. Now, part of what, you know, we look at, at a crime scene is lividity. The blood settles with gravity. After you die, your heart is no longer pumping. And so as Thelma is seated there slumped over, heart stops, blood settles to the lower parts of her body. Body showing the position that she's in, that lividity is something that I would be paying attention to to see had she laid in a position different than the position that she is ultimately found in. Lividity sets after a certain period of time. So if, if somebody is moved prior to the lividity setting, then the lividity, the blood shifts inside the body and so the original lividity pattern is changed. But once the lividity pattern sets, when the body's moved from the time that they die to the time that they ultimately are found, the lividity will show that. And the extent of the lividity is possibly something the pathologists may be relying upon to get a better sense in terms of how long somebody's been dead. Under select circumstances, the carbon monoxide poisoning can make it tougher to see the faint lividity aspect. Just because of the coloration due to the carbon monoxide, various decompositional processes are occurring. And if she's been dead for 30 hours, it's possible you could start to see some of, like her veins become darker. As the bacteria are starting to decompose the blood inside the veins, they become very prominent, looking this, what we call marbling. And that possibly can occur within that 30 hour period of time. Or you could start to see the dissension of the, you know, the bloating of the abdomen, you know, as the gases from the, the gut bacteria start to build up or you get a greenish tinge to the abdomen. You know, this is indicating that she's probably been dead longer than 12 hours. So the pathologist, if he's doing proper documentation in his autopsy report, if he's saying she's been dead for 30 hours. Then he should be listing the characteristics that he is observing to come to that opinion.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Well, as we wrap up this first episode, I'm gonna talk about why this is a two parter. Because there were a lot of suspicions about her death. There were a lot of things that investigators thought were really odd and her mother really thought was odd. So number one, we've already noted that her car is parked in the garage at the top of this massive. And I will give you a hint for the next episode. She did not drive it. She had a driver who took her to an event and then took her and dropped her off at 3am at her apartment. Oh, right. And her car had been at Roland's house up the hill all day. She just didn't want to deal with driving. And she had a driver, you know, take her places that day, her mother's. There is no way at three in the morning she climbed the steps that would have just taken her out completely. She had never done it before to get up to Roland's house. How did she get up to Roland's house? And she's also had some threats in the last couple of months. So there's a lot happening with this story.

[Paul Holes]

Yeah. So the plot thickens.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Mary Good stole that from some hard boiled detective novel you read. Have you ever said that in real life the plot thickens?

[Paul Holes]

No, not that I can recall.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Except now. Okay, so next week we will talk more about the absolutely fantastic Thelma Todd and the tragedy that is her death, whatever happened to her.

[Paul Holes]

Hopefully by the end of the next episode we will get to the bottom of this.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I hope so too. I will see you next week.

[Paul Holes]

All right, Kate, thank you.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Thanks.

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This has been an exactly right production.

[Paul Holes]

For our sources and show notes go to exactlyrightmedia.com buriedbones sources.

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Our senior producer is Alexis Amorosi.

[Paul Holes]

Research by Maren McClashan, Ali Elkin and Kate Winkler Dawson.

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Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

[Paul Holes]

Our theme song is by Tom Breifogel.

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Our artwork is by Vanessa La Lilac.

[Paul Holes]

Executive produced by Karen Kilgariff, Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer.

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You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at Buried Bones Pod.

[Paul Holes]

Kate's most recent book, all that Is Wicked, A Gilded Age Story of Murder and the Race to Decode the Criminal Mind is available now.

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And Paul's best selling memoir, Unmasked My.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Life Solving America's Cold Cases is also available now.

[Paul Holes]

Listen to Buried bones on the iHeartRadio radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

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