Buried Bones Podcast — "Take the Wheel PT 2"

Hosts: Kate Winkler Dawson & Paul Holes
Date: May 14, 2025

Overview

In this episode, Kate and Paul continue their deep dive into the mysterious 1935 death of Hollywood actress Thelma Todd. Part two focuses on the aftermath of Todd’s passing, centering on the conflicting reports, possible motives, the involvement of figures in her personal life, and expert analysis of her autopsy and crime scene details. The pair question whether Thelma died by accidental carbon monoxide poisoning, suicide, or if foul play was masked by Hollywood glitz and era-specific investigative limitations.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Recap of Thelma Todd’s Death & Initial Theories

[04:13–05:40]

• Thelma Todd, a celebrated actress, was found dead slumped in her car inside her lover/director Roland West's garage.
• She suffered a fractured nose, bleeding from her mouth, and ultimately died from carbon monoxide poisoning.
• Uncertainty surrounds whether her death was a suicide, an accident, or staged.

Notable Quote:
“Autopsy indicated she had a fractured nose... and she had carbon monoxide poisoning. And that’s where we left off.”
— Paul Holes, [04:58]

2. The Celebrity Threat Environment

[05:59–11:42]

• Ten months before her death, Thelma received two threatening letters signed “the Ace of Hearts,” demanding $10,000 and threatening harm.
• These threats included phone calls to her cafe threatening violence. Authorities eventually linked them to two distant, mentally unwell individuals unconnected to Todd.
• Kate and Paul discuss the dangers of fame, referencing other cases like Rebecca Schaeffer’s murder.

Notable Quote:
“That’s always this risk of when you end up seeking that fame and fortune, will you draw the attention of people that you may not want their attention?”
— Paul Holes, [11:23]

3. The Night of Thelma’s Disappearance

[14:43–21:45]

• On the night of December 14, 1935, Thelma attended a dinner at the Trocadero in her honor, leaving her restaurant around 8:00 pm.
• Her boyfriend, Roland West, insisted she be home by 2:00 am. She humorously replied she’d be back at 2:05 am.
• At about 3:00 am, her driver Ernest Peters dropped her at the cafe. She realized she forgot her key and attempted to enter Roland’s apartment (where his wife Jewel was also staying), but allegedly did not wake them.
• The prevailing police theory: she walked up the daunting 270 stairs, entered Roland’s garage via a side door, and fell asleep with the car running.

Notable Quote:
“She’s not walking up 250 steps in heels at 4 in the morning, cold... Mae will say... she hated that. She never wanted to go up that hill. Somebody took her up there.”
— Kate Winkler Dawson, [21:25]

4. Physical Improbabilities and Scene Analysis

[21:45–26:16]

• Discussion about the logistical and physical challenges of Thelma, in eveningwear and heels, climbing almost 270 stairs at 4 a.m.
• Photos/maps examined by Paul Holes to assess these difficulties. He estimates the climb was akin to 20-25 stories—a daunting task for a woman in formal attire with a known heart condition.

5. Eyewitnesses & Conflicting Timelines

[29:20–37:44]

• Several people, including friend Martha Ford, a waiter, and even Roland’s wife Jewel, claimed to have seen/spoken with Thelma on Sunday—contradicting the timeline that she died late Saturday/early Sunday.
• Martha alleged a 4 p.m. Sunday phone call; phone records couldn't corroborate this.
• Jewel said she saw Thelma in her car with a "dark complexioned man" on Sunday, but later admitted uncertainty.

Notable Quote:
“Three different people saying they saw Thelma on Sunday, yet Thelma is found in the clothes that she went to the dinner from Saturday. And you have a chauffeur saying he dropped her off at the cafe.”
— Paul Holes, [36:57]

6. Mob Connections and the Role of Thelma’s Ex-Husband

[39:07–44:47]

• The chauffeur suggested Todd had become scared, hinting at threats from her ex-husband, Pat DeCicco, who had mob ties.
• Pat was abusive during their marriage—even breaking Thelma’s nose—and was linked to mobster Lucky Luciano.
• Speculation: Todd’s cafe could have been pressured into use for gambling.
• Paul considers whether a mob-style "staged" death could have occurred, but stresses the significance of injury detail.

Notable Quote:
“If there’s an organization like the mob involved…do we have instances of mob connections with a similar type of staged crime scene where they, in essence, get the victim to succumb to carbon monoxide?”
— Paul Holes, [45:39]

7. Autopsy Evidence and Crime Scene Photographs

[47:31–53:32]

• Review of autopsy photos: No fractured nose or signs of a violent struggle; minor lip injury, possibly caused by slumping forward.
• The position of her body in the car and visible injuries support an accident rather than homicide.

Notable Quote:
“The nose looks pristine. It does not appear that her nose was fractured…this laceration to her lip…that’s completely consistent with her slumping forward and hitting her mouth on the steering wheel.”
— Paul Holes, [49:09–50:16]

8. Wrapping Up: The Coroner’s Ruling and Remaining Mysteries

[54:10–63:19]

• Coroner’s jury concluded the death was most likely accidental but called for deeper analysis of organs to rule out poisoning—no evidence of foul play was found.
• Modern forensics could not detect subtle poisons or certain drugs of that era, which leaves lingering questions.
• Both hosts note the suspiciousness of Thelma supposedly climbing the grueling steps, discrepancies in witness statements, and the potential, however unlikely, for out-of-character behavior late at night.
• Ultimately, the simplest scenario (accidental carbon monoxide poisoning) fits the vast majority of the physical evidence.

Notable Quotes:
“At this point, unless something compelling came up…if the coroner’s ruled this as accidental carbon monoxide poisoning, I don’t have a problem with that. I think her celebrity status…that’s all very interesting, but fundamentally…the evidence just isn’t there.”
— Paul Holes, [54:26]

“But with so many weird circumstances…her not wanting to walk up the steps, you know, her heart condition, three or four in the morning, it’s cold outside—all of this stuff just added up to really suspiciousness, I think, for everybody involved.”
— Kate Winkler Dawson, [55:06]

Memorable Moments & Notable Exchanges

• The Value of Modern Forensics:
  Paul explains how, despite suspicions, the crime scene and autopsy outweigh theories unsupported by physical evidence.
  “You know, the autopsy results and her being found slumped in the front seat…suggest accidental.”
  [37:44]

• Audience Empathy for Thelma Todd:
  Kate notes,
  “It’s sad…particularly with Thelma Todd that she died. But you know, it’s nice to see a woman who has a lot of independence and control and it’s nice. Even though it ends badly, it’s nice to be able to say these women have been here working so hard for so long.”
  [62:58]

Important Timestamps

• Recap and Case Context: [04:11–05:40]
• Threat Letters & Celebrity Risk: [05:59–11:42]
• The Night of Thelma’s Death: [14:43–21:45]
• Analysis of Steps (Maps/Photos): [21:45–26:16]
• Eyewitness Testimonies: [29:20–37:44]
• Mob, Ex-Husband, and Motives: [39:07–44:47]
• Crime Scene & Autopsy Analysis: [47:31–53:32]
• Coroner’s Findings & Final Discussion: [54:10–63:19]

Conclusion

The episode closes with agreement: the evidence supports accidental death via carbon monoxide poisoning, likely due to Thelma seeking warmth in the garage after being locked out. Despite peculiarities—her unlikely late-night climb, tangled relationships, and murmurs of violence or mob interest—no conclusive sign of homicide was uncovered. Kate and Paul reflect on the tragedy’s lessons about fame, investigative limits of the era, and the vulnerabilities of women in old Hollywood.

For more photos and evidence from the case, the hosts suggest visiting @buriedbonespod on Instagram.