Take the Wheel PT 2

Summary

Buried Bones Podcast — "Take the Wheel PT 2"

Hosts: Kate Winkler Dawson & Paul Holes
Date: May 14, 2025

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Overview

In this episode, Kate and Paul continue their deep dive into the mysterious 1935 death of Hollywood actress Thelma Todd. Part two focuses on the aftermath of Todd’s passing, centering on the conflicting reports, possible motives, the involvement of figures in her personal life, and expert analysis of her autopsy and crime scene details. The pair question whether Thelma died by accidental carbon monoxide poisoning, suicide, or if foul play was masked by Hollywood glitz and era-specific investigative limitations.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Recap of Thelma Todd’s Death & Initial Theories

[04:13–05:40]

• Thelma Todd, a celebrated actress, was found dead slumped in her car inside her lover/director Roland West's garage.
• She suffered a fractured nose, bleeding from her mouth, and ultimately died from carbon monoxide poisoning.
• Uncertainty surrounds whether her death was a suicide, an accident, or staged.

Notable Quote:
“Autopsy indicated she had a fractured nose... and she had carbon monoxide poisoning. And that’s where we left off.”
— Paul Holes, [04:58]

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2. The Celebrity Threat Environment

[05:59–11:42]

• Ten months before her death, Thelma received two threatening letters signed “the Ace of Hearts,” demanding $10,000 and threatening harm.
• These threats included phone calls to her cafe threatening violence. Authorities eventually linked them to two distant, mentally unwell individuals unconnected to Todd.
• Kate and Paul discuss the dangers of fame, referencing other cases like Rebecca Schaeffer’s murder.

Notable Quote:
“That’s always this risk of when you end up seeking that fame and fortune, will you draw the attention of people that you may not want their attention?”
— Paul Holes, [11:23]

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3. The Night of Thelma’s Disappearance

[14:43–21:45]

• On the night of December 14, 1935, Thelma attended a dinner at the Trocadero in her honor, leaving her restaurant around 8:00 pm.
• Her boyfriend, Roland West, insisted she be home by 2:00 am. She humorously replied she’d be back at 2:05 am.
• At about 3:00 am, her driver Ernest Peters dropped her at the cafe. She realized she forgot her key and attempted to enter Roland’s apartment (where his wife Jewel was also staying), but allegedly did not wake them.
• The prevailing police theory: she walked up the daunting 270 stairs, entered Roland’s garage via a side door, and fell asleep with the car running.

Notable Quote:
“She’s not walking up 250 steps in heels at 4 in the morning, cold... Mae will say... she hated that. She never wanted to go up that hill. Somebody took her up there.”
— Kate Winkler Dawson, [21:25]

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4. Physical Improbabilities and Scene Analysis

[21:45–26:16]

• Discussion about the logistical and physical challenges of Thelma, in eveningwear and heels, climbing almost 270 stairs at 4 a.m.
• Photos/maps examined by Paul Holes to assess these difficulties. He estimates the climb was akin to 20-25 stories—a daunting task for a woman in formal attire with a known heart condition.

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5. Eyewitnesses & Conflicting Timelines

[29:20–37:44]

• Several people, including friend Martha Ford, a waiter, and even Roland’s wife Jewel, claimed to have seen/spoken with Thelma on Sunday—contradicting the timeline that she died late Saturday/early Sunday.
• Martha alleged a 4 p.m. Sunday phone call; phone records couldn't corroborate this.
• Jewel said she saw Thelma in her car with a "dark complexioned man" on Sunday, but later admitted uncertainty.

Notable Quote:
“Three different people saying they saw Thelma on Sunday, yet Thelma is found in the clothes that she went to the dinner from Saturday. And you have a chauffeur saying he dropped her off at the cafe.”
— Paul Holes, [36:57]

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6. Mob Connections and the Role of Thelma’s Ex-Husband

[39:07–44:47]

• The chauffeur suggested Todd had become scared, hinting at threats from her ex-husband, Pat DeCicco, who had mob ties.
• Pat was abusive during their marriage—even breaking Thelma’s nose—and was linked to mobster Lucky Luciano.
• Speculation: Todd’s cafe could have been pressured into use for gambling.
• Paul considers whether a mob-style "staged" death could have occurred, but stresses the significance of injury detail.

Notable Quote:
“If there’s an organization like the mob involved…do we have instances of mob connections with a similar type of staged crime scene where they, in essence, get the victim to succumb to carbon monoxide?”
— Paul Holes, [45:39]

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7. Autopsy Evidence and Crime Scene Photographs

[47:31–53:32]

• Review of autopsy photos: No fractured nose or signs of a violent struggle; minor lip injury, possibly caused by slumping forward.
• The position of her body in the car and visible injuries support an accident rather than homicide.

Notable Quote:
“The nose looks pristine. It does not appear that her nose was fractured…this laceration to her lip…that’s completely consistent with her slumping forward and hitting her mouth on the steering wheel.”
— Paul Holes, [49:09–50:16]

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8. Wrapping Up: The Coroner’s Ruling and Remaining Mysteries

[54:10–63:19]

• Coroner’s jury concluded the death was most likely accidental but called for deeper analysis of organs to rule out poisoning—no evidence of foul play was found.
• Modern forensics could not detect subtle poisons or certain drugs of that era, which leaves lingering questions.
• Both hosts note the suspiciousness of Thelma supposedly climbing the grueling steps, discrepancies in witness statements, and the potential, however unlikely, for out-of-character behavior late at night.
• Ultimately, the simplest scenario (accidental carbon monoxide poisoning) fits the vast majority of the physical evidence.

Notable Quotes:
“At this point, unless something compelling came up…if the coroner’s ruled this as accidental carbon monoxide poisoning, I don’t have a problem with that. I think her celebrity status…that’s all very interesting, but fundamentally…the evidence just isn’t there.”
— Paul Holes, [54:26]

“But with so many weird circumstances…her not wanting to walk up the steps, you know, her heart condition, three or four in the morning, it’s cold outside—all of this stuff just added up to really suspiciousness, I think, for everybody involved.”
— Kate Winkler Dawson, [55:06]

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Memorable Moments & Notable Exchanges

• The Value of Modern Forensics:
  Paul explains how, despite suspicions, the crime scene and autopsy outweigh theories unsupported by physical evidence.
  “You know, the autopsy results and her being found slumped in the front seat…suggest accidental.”
  [37:44]

• Audience Empathy for Thelma Todd:
  Kate notes,
  “It’s sad…particularly with Thelma Todd that she died. But you know, it’s nice to see a woman who has a lot of independence and control and it’s nice. Even though it ends badly, it’s nice to be able to say these women have been here working so hard for so long.”
  [62:58]

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Important Timestamps

• Recap and Case Context: [04:11–05:40]
• Threat Letters & Celebrity Risk: [05:59–11:42]
• The Night of Thelma’s Death: [14:43–21:45]
• Analysis of Steps (Maps/Photos): [21:45–26:16]
• Eyewitness Testimonies: [29:20–37:44]
• Mob, Ex-Husband, and Motives: [39:07–44:47]
• Crime Scene & Autopsy Analysis: [47:31–53:32]
• Coroner’s Findings & Final Discussion: [54:10–63:19]

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Conclusion

The episode closes with agreement: the evidence supports accidental death via carbon monoxide poisoning, likely due to Thelma seeking warmth in the garage after being locked out. Despite peculiarities—her unlikely late-night climb, tangled relationships, and murmurs of violence or mob interest—no conclusive sign of homicide was uncovered. Kate and Paul reflect on the tragedy’s lessons about fame, investigative limits of the era, and the vulnerabilities of women in old Hollywood.

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For more photos and evidence from the case, the hosts suggest visiting @buriedbonespod on Instagram.

Transcript

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[Kate Winkler Dawson]

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[Paul Holes]

And I'm Paul Holes, a retired cold case investigator who's worked some of America's most complicated cases and solved them.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Each week I present Paul with one of history's most compelling true crimes.

[Paul Holes]

And I weigh in. Using modern forensic techniques to bring new insights to old mysteries.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime cases through a 21st century lens.

[Paul Holes]

Some are solved and some are cold. Very cold.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

This is Buried Bones.

Hey, Paul.

[Paul Holes]

Hey, Kate. How are you?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I'm doing well. I know I left you hanging with Thelma Todd, the very talented Thelma Todd, the Hollywood actress. Do you wanna give us a little bit of a recap since I know it's been a week for some of our viewers and our listeners?

[Paul Holes]

Yeah. You know, from what I remember and what stood out to me in the first episode on this case, Thelma Todd was a young actress, actually very accomplished actress. Lived in an apartment above a restaurant that she owned with a lover who happened to also be married to another woman. So there was a little bit of a lover's triangle within Thelma's life. And this lover, Roland, who was a. He was a director or an executive, right?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

He was a director. Film director.

[Paul Holes]

Film director has this beautiful house up a very steep hill in the Pacific Palisades. Thelma goes out on a Saturday night. And I don't think we discussed the details of, you know, what she did that night. However, her housekeeper May ended up Monday morning looking for Thelma and found Thelma slumped in the driver's side of her car in the garage of Roland's house. Autopsy indicated she had a fractured nose. She has some bleeding out of the mouth, and she had carbon monoxide poisoning. And that's where we left off.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

You got it. We've got now a whole host of, I think, very confusing information. So the first half was really establishing, you know, her death. And I don't think we have any clear indication of time of death. We've got two doctors saying two different things. And we do know there is this weird.

It's hard to know if it's a.

Lover'S triangle because it was just so vague between them all. And then, you know, we've got Thelma Who I think one of the question marks was, is this suicide? Is this something else? So let's start back up with. I had hinted at a couple of things. One was the threatening of Thelma's life. Okay, so let's start with that. About 10 months before Thelma died. So this is about February of 1935. She gets two threatening letters in the mail. They say that she will be harmed or killed unless she pays the letter writer $10,000. So that's about $229,000 today. One of the letters, at least one of them, demands that the $10,000 be paid to Abe Lyman, who is an orchestra leader whom Thelma was once engaged to. Authorities, of course, say this is ridiculous. Abe has nothing to do with. I mean, why would he name himself in a threatening letter? But the letters are signed by the ace of hearts. How many stories can we do about these vague, these vague kind of kidnapping rings or whatever? Now I can't remember the black glove. I mean, I think we've had the black hand versus the black glove. And now we've got the ace of hearts. Someone calling himself that same name. The ace of hearts places several long distance phone calls to Thelma's cafe, threatening to blow the whole place up. These are threats that she reported to the police, but they don't think it's credible. None of this stuff is credible. And ultimately the police track the threats to two men based in New York, at least one of whom appears to have some kind of a psychiatric illness. And this is a long time ago, but I just want to throw that out there. And it's a reminder of when I said police were really investigating these threats. She is a Hollywood actress, a very well known one, so she is getting a lot of attention. And this story, which probably would have been written off if she were a, quote, unquote, normal person as an accident or a suicide, is being seriously investigated as foul play. Because of her status.

[Paul Holes]

No. You know, and this is, you know, part of the celebrity lifestyle that people probably under. Appreciate in terms of the nut jobs that are out there. You know, they, they start obsessing.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah.

[Paul Holes]

And they want attention and want, you know, something back. Whether it's positive or even negative, it's basically they just want something. You know, I actually interviewed Eva LaRue who was being stalked online. She was an actress out of CSI Miami and other things. And, and ultimately my part on Golden State Killer, Steve Kramer and his agent buddy Steve Bush, utilizing one of these stamps on the letters, threatening letters that had been sent in were able to use genealogy and identify her stalker. And he's just some random guy out, I believe it was in Ohio, living with his mom, sitting in a basement, you know, threatening Eva and her daughter over the course of, you know, like 15 years.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Oh, my gosh. Are you serious?

[Paul Holes]

Yeah. You know, and it's just. That's part of when you have that national level exposure, you know, you do get those crazies that will do that. So right now, these two letters, plus the threatening phone calls into Thelma, which are about 10 months prior to her death, it looks like. It sounds like authorities are just saying it's one of these nut jobs and these individuals have no connection to Thelma out in LA at the time of her death. That's what it sounds like, right?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah. They dismiss these two folks. It was just, like I said, another reminder to me also about the threat that these stars are under, you know, constantly. I told you in the last episode about my interview with Marcia Clark. And one of the things I brought up to her was she was on my radar before OJ because she had prosecuted the case against the killer of Rebecca Schaeffer, you know, the actress. To me, when she was murdered, she was on a big TV series at the time. She was sort of that definition of the quote, unquote, perfect victim. You know, beautiful Hollywood actress, very humble. She's murdered by a stalker. And that shook me, that case. Do you remember much about the Rebecca Schaeffer case?

[Paul Holes]

No. I do. You know, and of course, she just answers a knock on her door and the offender shoots her. He was somebody who had. He had obsessed about her. And at select points, I believe he had reached out to her, didn't get any response. He ended up stalking other female actresses, but then went back and focused on Rebecca Schaeffer. And then ultimately, you know, showed up at her front door and just shot her. Just killed her. It's so tragic when you think about it. Here's this young woman whose career is taking off, and, you know, she's got this just what would probably be an amazing life in front of her, and just to have some random nut job show up and kill you. You know, that's. That's always this risk of when you end up seeking that. That fame and fortune, will you draw the attention of people that you may not want their attention.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah. Well, luckily, it sounds like for Thelma, these letters stopped. You know, they connected it.

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[Kate Winkler Dawson]

So let's get back to our current timeline. So now I want to talk about the details. We are on Saturday night. It is Saturday night, December 14th. This is the last time people see her. So about 36 hours before May finds Thelma, she is at her restaurant, at the cafe, working. She leaves around 8 o'.

Clock.

She's going to a dinner in her honor because of these new films that she's doing at the Trocadero nightclub in Hollywood. There's this dinner that's in her honor because of the films that she's been doing. Roland, the boyfriend, is there, but he left before Thelma. So they kind of cross paths. And on his way out, he reportedly told Thelma he wants her home by 2am Like a dad, be home by 2am and she joked back that she'd be back at 2:05. If you're paying attention to those very last moments where at least publicly, they were seen together. It was like playful flirting, humor kind of thing. That was the impression that I got.

[Paul Holes]

Yeah. So they're not hiding their relationship?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

No, no. I mean, I think everybody knows about it, but they also know that while Jewel and Roland are legally married, there seemed to be an actual separation there. So again, this is not splashed all over the gossip columns and this is Hearst media time. So, you know, there's yellow journalism. It's just not. That's not really part of this. So I told you that the car was back up at the house, at Roland's house. So Thelma had a driver drop her back off at the cafe at three in the morning. She had sort of requested friends to see her at the cafe Sunday. Like she had joked, let's see how many of you guys actually drag yourself into my cafe on Sunday. And you know, they took that as an invitation. So they were gonna plan to go. So she's at the cafe all the time. I mean, she left at 8pm and then she had her driver drop her back off at 3 in the morning. After her night out. She is realizing that she didn't bring her key with her to get into the cafe. But she knows that Roland is home in the apart above the cafe because he said, I'm going home. But it's also believed, Roland says that Jewel, and Jewel says too Jewel was there too. So this is where things get kind of mushy and confusing. For whatever reason, Thelma goes into the apartment where Roland is and she doesn't wake up. Roland and Roland said that this was something that was really common, that he woke up really easily. And she. I don't think she was scared to wake him up, but she was. I think that might be the whole separate bedroom issue. But Jewel was with him at the time and maybe that's why. Maybe she didn't want to wake him up either. It sounds like a very odd relationship, but at the same time it seemed kind of normalized in this time period. The police initially believe that she climbed the 250 stairs from the restaurant up the hill to Roland's house. She doesn't have a key to his house either. And she gets into the garage and sits in her car. And the police at this time had believed that she let herself into the garage. Not through the garage door, but there's like a side door that was open. She got in her car, she turned on the ignition and fell asleep with the door closed. And a night watchman was scheduled to pass by about 6 o' clock in the morning. And the. I don't know if I believe this. The police think that Thelma might have fallen asleep waiting for him. They also believe she was pretty inebriated through all of this. So what do you think of all that? I know that was a lot of information all at once.

[Paul Holes]

So they're getting information from the driver that he did drop her off at the cafe, the apartment, at 3am in the morning. And is there any suspicion on the driver at all?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

No, no suspicion on the driver.

[Paul Holes]

And then with this idea that she went into Roland's room.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I think the insinuation was this, that she didn't have a key for the cafe. She didn't have a key maybe for the apartment above. Also, she didn't wanna knock on the door to wake him up. And so she decided to walk up 250 steps at 4 in the morning drunk, most likely to get into a house where she doesn't have a key up there either. The only place she actually can succeed into getting into is ins the garage. And then the idea is that she would turn on the car with the garage door closed to wait for a night watchman. I don't know why none of that makes sense to me, but maybe it does to you.

[Paul Holes]

Well, I'm just wondering. This is mid December and even though it's. We're talking LA Pacific Palisades, maybe it's chilly. And one of the questions that I have about this 1935 Lincoln Phaeton car is does it have heat which you have turned the car on in Order just to have some heat. You know, in order to get the heat, you need to have the engine running to heat up the coolant that goes through the heater core, you know, and then the fans blow through the heater core to generate heat. And she just doesn't recognize that a running car inside a closed environment is dangerous, you know, with the carbon monoxide. You know, that's. That's one thing. If this car had. Was a source of heat, maybe that's why she turned it on inside the garage and why she went up, though it seems like she. She was inside the cafe to get to the apartment. So why does she leave to go all the way up those steps to ultimately just get into her car?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Right.

[Paul Holes]

If she's so inebriated, you know, judgment is impaired and, you know, and she may not be thinking, right. Maybe she's thinking, okay, well, Roland and Jules are down at the apartment. I'm just going to get up to the house and stay up there, you know, and crawl into a bed up there. And then she gets all the way up there and realizes, oh, I can't get in.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

So here's the other side of that. There is no way that woman went to a fancy schmancy event in her honor at that place, at that, you know, restaurant with all of those people glammed out. What kind of shoes do you think she was wearing?

[Paul Holes]

Oh, she's gonna be decked out. You know, she has a. You know, an image, a brand that she has to maintain.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah, heels. She's not walking up 250 steps in heels at 4 in the morning, cold. I mean, there's no way she. So Mae will say there's gonna be a coroner's inquest that I'll tell you about. And Mae will say at this coroner's inquest, she hated that. She never wanted to go up that hill. Somebody took her up there.

[Paul Holes]

Okay?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

And this show for. Says it wasn't me. So she vanishes after he drops her off, and they alibi'd him, and, you know, nobody suspected him. But that is. I think, the big issue here is the chauffeur says she wasn't drunk. She was sober. Rowland said it would have been like her to not knock on the door and wake him up if he didn't have a key. She had done that before when he was there. And she ends up throwing a rock through the bedroom window, which I'm sure he didn't appreciate. But then when she would lock herself out, other times, she would just go to her mom's Now, I don't know if that meant she would get in her car and drive to her mom's or if she would call the chauffeur back, but that's not what happened. She didn't contact her mom. So the last thing we know is this driver drops her off at the cafe. She's locked out there. She's locked out of Roland's apartment. She supposedly in heels and a mink and everything else, climbs up 250 stairs. And now's probably Paul a good time for you to look at those maps.

[Paul Holes]

Okay. And you know, one question I have is when her body's found, is she wearing heels?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I didn't see a note about that. I want you to look at this and you tell me what you think. If she walked up this, this spot with no heels on because she's wearing hose, I'm sure too. 200. Sorry. It's 270 steps according to this newspaper. So go to pages three and four and kind of describe when you can what you think you know.

[Paul Holes]

The first image is an actual photograph of the front, the storefront of the cafe. It's a bigger building than what I was expecting. You know, it's right there, right off the side of the road. There's parkings. There's several vehicles that are pulled up into parking spots, you know, nose into the front of this building. There's a label indicating where the sidewalk cafe was, which is that Thelma's cafe? Cause it also says the Joya Cafe above that. Is that one and the same.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

It's a sidewalk cafe. And the Joya or whatever that is must just be a separate business. Hers is that whole bottom section. That's huge.

[Paul Holes]

Yeah, no, that's a good sized cafe. And then there's a label pointing to on the right side of the photograph, which is the kind of a multi story part of this storefront. Whether it be the second or the third floor, the label indicates that's where Thelma Todd's apartment was at. And then there's some dotted lines which I. It's hard in this photograph to be able to determine exactly what those dotted lines are marking. But I think those dotted lines are marking the kind of the steps. Oh, no, I see.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

It's confusing. If you look at the second one, you'll see there's two sets of steps, but they're almost separated by what I mean, this looks like a hole. This woman is not doing this, I don't think in he four in the morning.

[Paul Holes]

Okay, so there's two Two sets of steps. And then you have the steps go up to what appears to be one road. You cross that road, and then you go up a second series of steps to get to the house. And those, those steps, basically, it's like two separate sets of steps, but they're straight, per this sketch on the second page that you just sent me. And yeah, you know, this is, this looks like a significant distance. You know, this is a situation. It's hard to discern from the photograph and the sketch sort of the spatial aspects of what we're looking at. And 270 steps is a lot. You know, you think about like a floor, you know, you're looking about 12 steps in a residential dwelling to get from, you know, like my basement up to the main floor. 12 to 15 steps. And so when you're starting to talk about 270 steps, I mean, you're going up, I don't know, 20, you know, 20 floors. 20, 20, 25 floors, maybe.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah.

[Paul Holes]

So obviously this is, this would be a, a rigorous activity. So there I could see where there would be some concerns about Thelma doing these steps in heels. I would think she would take her heels off in order to do that. Secondly, her heart condition, you know, whatever that is, you know, does the heart condition, you know, know, prevent her from doing this type of physical exertion? But then there's the victimology. May is saying there's no way she would ever have done that.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yep.

[Paul Holes]

So if she did not walk up the steps, how does she get up to the house? You know, I, I know this chauffeur is, is not of concern. I'm just, you know, it's like, well, he's the last one who saw her alive.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Right? Right.

[Paul Holes]

It was like, okay, so how did they eliminate him? Them?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

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[Kate Winkler Dawson]

So now we gotta talk about witnesses because there were people who say they saw her or talked to her on Sunday. And you know the last time he saw her was when he dropped her off Sunday at 3am so let me tell you what people said and Jewel Carmen, her boyfriend's wife says that she saw her too on Sunday. So here's what everyone says. Three People report information to the police that if true, would have required Thelma to be alive on Sunday, not dead Saturday night, Sunday morning. So you know, the time of death thing is becoming more interesting. One is named Martha Ford. She's a friend of Thelma's and she said they spoke on the phone on Sunday. Thelma had been invited to a cocktail party at Ms. Ford's residence in Laurel Canyon. Martha says that Thelma called her at 4pm so this is like the 12 hour timeline that we're talking about that the initial doctor said, saying that she was on her way to this party and that she was gonna bring a friend along with her. She did not show up obviously to the cocktail party. And they had the ability to trace phone calls and they could not find evidence of that phone call from Martha Ford. Okay, so that's witness one, sketchy. Witness number one. Do you wanna stop there or do you want me to keep going or what do you think?

[Paul Holes]

No, keep going. I kind of want the whole picture on these witnesses.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Okay, the next one is a waiter who is not someone who's named, I presume he didn't, you know, testify in front of the coroner's inquest. He was at a different cafe, not her cafe, on Hollywood Boulevard. And he tells police he saw Thelma, who would have been. She would have stuck out like a sore thumb. Obviously he saw her drive past the cafe on Hollywood Boulevard at 2pm on Sunday. So two hours before, you know, she was supposed to be talking to Martha Ford. And then kind of the last one is after Thelma's death a few days later on Wednesday. So Thelma was found on a Monday morning. This is now Jewel. And Jewel two days later says she saw Thelma driving somewhere in her car in Hollywood on Sunday. She says that she was with a dark complexioned man. And Jewell later clarifies she can't be certain she saw Thelma. But it was definitely a chocolate brown Lincoln car which looked identical to Thelma's car. I don't know what's happening. I mean, I guess take the both ways. Either that Jewel is not involved because there's nothing to be involved with and this was an accident or something really sketchy is happening. What would Jewel be trying to do in both of those circumstances?

[Paul Holes]

Well, the waiter and Jewel is the victim, the one actually driving her own car. Is that their statement?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Well, it sounds like yes, that she and she had driven her own car. Sometimes she would have a chauffeur, sometimes she wouldn't. So yes, in that she was driving with a dark complexioned man. Very vague. From Jewel's statement. I don't know if she was suggesting that the man was driving the car, but she just said she saw Thelma.

[Paul Holes]

So the first witness, Martha Ford, who is a friend, spoke on the phone at 4pm on Sunday. I know you said that they had the capability to trace phone calls and there is no evidence that that phone call ever occurred.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

So they say they found no record of any phone call made between Martha and Thelma's Cafe or Martha and Thelma's home. So the apartment. But I would assume they would run that same thing on Roland's house. Or maybe she used a payphone. I don't know what she would have used. But those were the two that they looked at.

[Paul Holes]

If you have the waiter, and he's accurate in his statement saying he saw Thelma drive past his cafe on Hollywood Boulevard at 2pm and then Martha is now saying that Thelma spoke with her on the phone at 4pm it's possible that Thelma is not at any of her known locations. She's out and about now. One of the things I don't know is 1935 phone records, like billing records and stuff like that, how much they stayed on top of local phone calls. I know going back, it's now decades later in the 1970s, that trying to trace a phone call, let's say like an active phone call, it's a very labor intensive, quick moving process within the phone facility itself. You know, you got all sorts of relays that they have to end up tracking down while that phone call is going on. That's why, you know, this whole thing, you know, back in the day is that the person on the phone that's issuing threats and you're trying to trace that phone call, there's a clock that's ticking because when they hang up, boom, these relays just reset, set, and now you've lost sort of the phone, the originating phone number, where that phone call came in from. So I'm kind of wondering how in the 1930s they tracked phone calls, you know, and, and I'm getting down to, okay, if they're saying that there's no record of a phone call between Thelma and Martha and, and I'm assuming Martha said she called Thelma or she was home and Thelma called her, you know, it's, it's one or the other. So they would have the, you know, who, the originator of the phone call, you know, how much veracity to put on the investigator's information. And I don't know right now. Yeah, that, that's, that's, that's a big question mark is are they right and there was no phone call or is it very possible there was a phone call and they just didn't look in the right place, you know, within the phone tracking system. So that's something that I'm, I'm chewing on this waiter, the waiter is not an associate of the victim.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Right?

[Paul Holes]

Just recognizes the victim. And this is a high profile case, you know, so there's, you know, there is always going to be that question mark of is the waiter just trying to be helpful? Read something in the newspaper and maybe mistaken identity. You would think that Thelma's car, you know, would be somewhat unusual. But again, you have a lot of wealthy people that live in this area, so maybe it's not as unusual as. As I'm assuming. And then Jewel's the one that's. That's interesting. You know, my. My concern with Jewel, of course, is, is even though it appears that this triangle between her and Roland and Thelma is all out in the open and all on the up and up, you know, if she's calling in and is trying to place Thelma with some unknown man, you know, is she trying to drive a wedge between Thelma and Roland, you know, or is she just being honest? And again, I don't know. It's all very interesting because you have three different people saying they saw Thelma on Sunday, yet Thelma is found in the clothes that she went to the dinner from Saturday. And you have a chauffeur saying he dropped her off at the cafe.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

And this isn't like Uber Paul. I mean, this was her regular driver who was on call all the time.

[Paul Holes]

For her, and he's just pushing her out of the car and driving away.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Well, she did not know. She didn't have a key until after she got to the door. And she realized she left everything at home and I'm assuming he was gone already. And she can't make a phone call, so, you know, she went up to the apartment. I had kind of wondered if Jewel was there, which has been insinuated. And she did knock on the door and Jewel answered. And maybe that's how she caught a ride up there. But of course, Jewel's not copping to anything. I don't know. I just don't trust Jewel. I don't understand any of this. Why would she let somebody. I mean, there's investments everywhere and it just seems like an odd relationship.

[Paul Holes]

No, no, I think that, you know, the oddity of the relationship is concerning. You know, I. I think I want more information about the normal routine that the chauffeur does, you know, is I can only imagine that the chauffeur, he's not just pulling up and, okay, good night. Or, you know, whatever this sounds for somebody of Thelma's status. This sounds like a professional driver that likely would escort Thelma to the door or, you know, help her get out of the car. You know, what's what is the normal routine? And of course, I. I know you probably don't have that information, you know, so on one hand, the autopsy results and her being found slumped in the front seat of her own vehicle inside a closed garage with carbon monoxide poisoning, you know, that suggests accidental, but I can see where there's some concern just because there seems to be other suspicious activity going on. There's churn. And now it does come down to, okay, what is the likely time of death? Can we eliminate these three witnesses on Sunday, if we can say that Thelma was truly dead? 30 hours versus 12.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I think that it becomes very complicated because there's so much more information. So the chauffeur's name is Ernest Peters. And he said that she seemed scared. And I was not gonna bring this up until now. Thelma had. And this was a theory that, you know, the police claim they went down this road, but we'll see. She had apparently had a recent altercation with her ex husband who had ties to mobsters. And there began to be speculation, and the chauffeur kind of backs this up. Up that her ex husband and mobsters that had been floating around this area and in her circle were pressuring her to use the cafe in gambling, and that this could have been connected to that somehow. And so the chauffeur says, you know, she had sketchy people around. He testified at what would soon be in the coroner's inquest and that he, you know, just said she was scared of her ex husband and that there had been recent issues between the two of them. Them. But he said, you know, he put her at the cafe. There's a spot where it's in front of the cafe and also in front of a tiny set of steps that I think you see in one of the maps that go up to her apartment. I guess it's not tiny, but it's a short set of steps. So he doesn't particularly know which way she went at that point. And then, you know, there's information about the mob tie stuff.

[Paul Holes]

Well, you know, it does. It does boil down to, you know, I kind of go back to the fractured nose a little bit.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah.

[Paul Holes]

So you have the theory that she succumbs to carbon monoxide poisoning, she slumps forward, hits her nose against the steering wheel. And I'm not doubting that that could potentially fracture, but it would be a very minor. God, I remember playing basketball as a kid, and I'd have that basketball rebound off the rim and just slam into my nose.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

And.

[Paul Holes]

And that Would be a hell of a lot more force in my head just kind of slumping forward into a steering wheel. And I never broke my nose. You know, some, some boys had their nose, noses broken by a basketballs. Right. So this is where, you know, evaluating. Okay, the, the level of damage to her nose, I think is, Is part of what I would be looking into, you know, and where the bleeding is coming out of her mouth, I mean, is. Is her upper palate to her oral cavity, you know, the, the roof of her mouth, is that fractured as a result of this fractured nose? Or is the mouth, is the blood from the mouth just a result of blood, you know, kind of dripping down from the nasal cavity into the oral cavity? You know, this is, these are observations they need to be making at autopsy or should have made at autopsy, because, I mean, if her nose is crushed in and her upper palate is fractured, then I would say that's not from her slumping forward. Somebody punched her in the nose or similar. So I think for me to start resolving the circumstances and the suspicions and the theories is it's going back to the core. It's going back to what does the crime scene say? What does the autopsy say? Can I see something that indic or let's say either corroborates or refutes the theory that this was just an accidental carbon monoxide poisoning.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Let me tell you a little bit more because I'm not going to have those details, unfortunately. Just about. I wish we had more on the autopsy, but let me just tell you a little bit more about the X. And I don't know if it's going to go anywhere or not. So three years, not very long ago, before she died, she married a guy named Pat. He's an agent and a producer who has alleged ties to mobster Lucky Luciano. And they divorce two years later. You know, they were married just for two years. Now they're divorced a year before she dies. During their marriage, they have absolutely awful arguments, very, like, violent. It sounds like Pat is abusive and he hurts Thelma on multiple occasions. He breaks her nose. And she had been the one to file for divorce saying that he was cruel. Still, really weird side note, Pat DeCicco went on to marry Gloria Vanderbilt in 1941.

[Paul Holes]

Wow.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

And she was only 17 when they got married. And she said he was extremely abusive. So the running theory is about the mob, that she got drawn into this world because the ex husband, who has only been an ex husband for a year, was involved and that this would have been fairly common. And Roland west could have been involved, too. I mean, he was a film director. The intertwining between a lot of Hollywood and the mob was pretty tight in this time period. So, you know, that is not out of the realm. But you're right again. It's like the details of the autopsy, you know, may or may not have told us more information. I just think all of these circumstances are so weird. I am so bothered that no one is copying to taking her up to the top of this hill, you know, and then all these things that are happening. So if she is alive on Sunday, why is she found dead Monday morning in the same clothes that she wore Saturday night? How does that make sense?

[Paul Holes]

Well, you know, a scenario. Let's say she ends up meeting with somebody after she gets dropped off by the chauffeur. And maybe this is a consensual relationship, or maybe she is. Is truly under threat, but never ends up going back home in order to change the next day. This ex husband, Pat, is he a darkly complected guy?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Here's the two of them together. Hold on. He. He looks like he could be darker. He looks olive skin to me.

[Paul Holes]

Oh, yeah. Is that surname, like, Italian?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah, I believe so.

[Paul Holes]

Yeah. Yeah, because he looks. Yeah, the thick eyebrows. Looks like he has the, you know, full dark. Dark head of hair.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

But would she really not know who her current husband's girlfriend's ex husband would be? I mean, I don't know.

[Paul Holes]

Yeah, you know, that's, you know, Jules statements. You know, is she intentionally being vague or does she not get a good look? Or is there an associate of, you know, a mob associate of this Pat Deco that's now abducted? You know, this is where, when, when. When I start evaluating the circumstances of how Thelma died. And if there's an organization like the mob involved, one of the things that I would be doing is reaching out to the experts who have investigated mob homicides and find out, do we have instances of mob connections with a similar type of staged crime scene where they, in essence, get the victim to succumb to carbon monoxide? Again, the fractured nose, let's say, could that have been a punch? Could that have been a significant enough punch to where Thelma is dazed and she's, in essence, put inside this running vehicle inside a closed garage. She has to be breathing. It's not like she's dead. And then this is staged to look like. Like, you know, carbon monoxide. She has to be ingesting the carbon monoxide by breathing. So she's still alive inside that garage and taking in the carbon monoxide. The critical aspect is really assessing the one injury she has. You know, what is the level of violence? Is it consistent with just a mere slump or is there a greater force being applied? And I would say if there's a greater force being applied and then the blood flows, the blood patterns, does that indicate that there's something suspicious going on? If there is, if this fractured nose is significant, I think that aspect in and of itself would push this case from an accidental finding to at least an indetermined finding in terms of manner of death. Death by the hands of another type of scenario. So 1935, you know, it's possible that they did some photography at the crime scene in the morgue. Pathologists should have written a report, you know, so I'd be interested in getting into the nitty gritty details of what the pathologist actually found.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Okay, hang on. I think I found a photo. So this is a photo of her on the autopsy slab. This is from the book Tragic Hollywood. Beautiful, glamorous and still dead. When cops arrived, they knew she was dealing. They were dealing with a person of means. She was extremely well dressed. The gown, full length mahogany mink coat, lots of diamonds, expensive rings. Just as a reminder, if we're looking at the mob connection. She had a lot of jewelry, rosy, you know, cheeks. There was no trace. There were no traces of bruising around her neck. And her nose was not broken, even though it looked like it had been. And it says it has erroneously reported. She did have a loose filling and a slightly bloody lip. A dying camellia was pinned to her party dress. The withering flower had lost its pure white color and was turning pink. Let me go ahead and share this.

[Paul Holes]

So this is saying her nose was not fractured?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Well, I mean, and that's what the doctor had said initially, but then there were all of these other reports, you know, so.

[Paul Holes]

Yeah, well, she's obviously. So I'm looking at, you know, a picture of Thelma. She's. She's laying on her back. She's got the typical neck rest that's used at autopsy. That's behind her head. You know, her upper body is completely covered. So all I can see is pretty much from the jaw up to the top of her head. And her hair, I can't tell if she's been autopsied. And at this point, you know, her hair may be covering up any incisions to her scalp. Sometimes there's deformation to the forehead, which there may be in this case. But the nose looks pristine. It does not appear that her nose was fractured. There is just a slight discoloration on what appears to possibly be her lower lips. Lip. You know, if this is all the damage to her face, then I would say, you know what, that laceration to her lip, if that's what that is, that's completely consistent with her slumping forward and hitting her mouth on the steering wheel.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

How'd she get up there?

[Paul Holes]

Yeah, there's definitely mysteries in terms of her movements. You know, the timeline.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Wait, is this her?

[Paul Holes]

Yeah, that might be her in the vehicle.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah. Mink coat. That's her.

[Paul Holes]

At least at the time of this photo, she slumped to her right. And so they've opened up the front passenger door and have taken a photo with her laying there. I wonder if that's the position that she was actually found in. But these. I think the bottom photo is potentially reversed.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah, I think you might be right. Some. Maybe people can see it better or something.

[Paul Holes]

You know, sometimes it's the way they develop the. The prints from negatives, and they don't. They don't account for the directionality. So, I mean, it appears that she's in the middle of the front seat based on the position. If I'm looking at the top photo. Right. Looks like she's got this long mink coat on and she's sitting on the bottom, or she was sitting on the bottom of it, and then she ends up collapsing to her left. But what I'm assuming is where her butt is, that looks like it's towards the middle of the front seat of this vehicle.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

It doesn't look violent to me.

And there's no space.

I mean, look at. It looks pretty tight to me. If she were sitting up, she's pretty close to the steering wheel. And that looks like a imposing steering wheel. I could see how that would knock her tooth loose.

[Paul Holes]

Yeah, you know, potentially. But, you know, this dashboard, there's other features in front of her that if she were to collapse forward, she doesn't necessarily have to collapse into the steering wheel, like where it appears that she is. Is sitting. It's possible that she just collapsed and hit the front dash. But we also have to consider that as she's succumbing to carbon monoxide, it's not like it's just you're completely lucid one moment and then you're done the next moment. There's a process. It's possible that as she is losing awareness, coming to carbon monoxide, she's moving around, right?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah.

[Paul Holes]

So it's hard to say exactly how she positioned. Purposely positioned herself inside this vehicle. But right now, I mean, her nose is not fractured, if there's any. I can't see any blood in these photos, but I don't doubt that maybe there's some blood from a minor lip laceration.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Right.

[Paul Holes]

But this is not. There doesn't have. There's no evidence of violence being inflicted on her. So at least from a crime scene, in an autopsy standpoint, it's really tough to draw a conclusion that somebody. Somebody did this to her. Now, it's possible, you know, but I. Right now, I am now leaning back towards. This is accidental. She succumbed to carbon monoxide poisoning. And, you know, the mystery is, well, how did she get up there? And why did she go up there? But I think if she's just like, well, I'm locked out down here at the cafe in the apartment. I'm gonna go up and see if I can get into the house. And she can't get into the house, and. But she can get into the garage, and it's cold, and she turns the vehicle on. Right now, I think that that's the most compelling theory out there.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

This is another angle, but I don't know how helpful. It's an above angle.

[Paul Holes]

Yeah. So. And that's showing that that other photo was reversed. So this photo is accurate in that it shows that she fell to her left. And her head is on the. The driver's seat. And the driver's door is open with the gentleman who may be an investigator, maybe a representative from the coroner's office is standing above her.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Not wearing gloves.

[Paul Holes]

No. Which 40 years later, they weren't wearing gloves. So this is not surprising at all.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Okay, well, that's good. Let me see if there's anything else. I don't know what this is. Oh, I think they're taking her body out. Is that a body bag kind of thing?

[Paul Holes]

Yeah, it looks like. Yeah, she's got. They got her wrapped. You know, when all is said and done about what we've talked about.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah.

[Paul Holes]

You know, at this point, unless something compelling came up, you know, if the coroners ruled this as accidental carbon monoxide poisoning, I don't have a problem with that. I think her celebrity status and some of the. The strange relationships and mob connections and death threats and all of that, that's all very interesting, but fundamentally, to be able to say that somebody came in and killed her, the evidence just isn't there. With what I've seen, I agree, man.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I'm gonna give a lot of credit to Tragic Hollywood if Anybody wants to look at some more of these photos and just some wonderful photos of her on the set.

Yeah, what a. I mean, just a.

29 year old actress who was working so hard and she's got this cafe and she's obviously planning for the future. And I don't know how she got up there. Maybe the chauffeur turned around and gave her a ride and just for some reason didn't want to say anything about it. Who knows? But this really doesn't, you know, the coroner said these were mild. This does not look like she was in a fight in any way. But with so many weird circumstances, her not wanting to walk up the steps, you know, her heart condition, three or four in the morning, it's cold outside. All of this stuff just added up to really suspiciousness, I think, for everybody involved. So let me just wrap this up. The coroner's jury ruled that the death appeared accidental but that it needed to be further investigated. They wanted somebody to take a closer look at the organs for more conclusive evidence ruling out foul play. I don't know what, what do you think they were thinking? 70 to 80% saturation of carbon monoxide seems pretty conclusive to me. I mean, what were they thinking they would find in there?

[Paul Holes]

You know, I'd wonder if there had been, let's say, some punches to her abdomen, which you're not necessarily going to see much on, you know, this compressible part of the body. But some of these internal organs may demonstrate some hemorrhaging or some tissue damage, particularly the liver. That's the only thing I can really think of, you know, and you know, her state of intoxication would be important in 1935. I'm not sure outside of the pathologist, once he cuts into the body and goes, whoa, there's a lot of ethanol, you know, on board.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Right.

[Paul Holes]

I'm not sure what they were doing in terms of measuring the amount of alcohol somebody had on board. And you know, 1935, celebrity actress, you know, is she abusing barbiturates? Is she abusing other recreational drugs at the time? So that could also lead to this kind of mental state to where she is now wandering up the hill, stumbling up the hill to get to the house where she's doing something that she normally wouldn't do.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah. There are media reports just in case anybody goes digging around in this story. There were some media reports that there was blood found in Roland and Thelma's apartment. But I mean, those were just media reports, Hearst, yellow journalism stuff. And the Police never reported any of that. And then, you know, of course, what's always going to come back is she will not have made that climb up those steps. But never say never, Right? I mean, really, if you're motivated, just never say never. I mean, you can't. We can't say conclusively.

It's unlikely.

And I know you talk about that with victimology. It's unlikely, but it doesn't mean that one night she didn't deserve decide to do that. There is a grand jury that convenes on the case for about a month. The grand jury foreman is a guy named George Rochester, and he's kind of our grandstander is what everybody thinks. Even though they already have clear evidence from the autopsy that there's carbon monoxide poisoning. He is insisting that the county chemist analyze her organs for signs of poisoning. They do, and the report is delayed for about a month. But there's nothing.

[Paul Holes]

Yeah.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

And I wouldn't you think recreational drugs would have popped up on that kind of a report also?

[Paul Holes]

You know, this is. You know, this is an era in which lab's ability to screen for a broad number of substances all at once just didn't exist. They needed to be able to have an idea on what to look for.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah.

[Paul Holes]

And then utilize the analytical tools they could to specifically look for maybe a class of compounds, if they're lucky. Like, there's different types of barbs out there. But generally, I would say that unless they had an idea of what she was recreationally using, it's very possible that they would have missed whatever was in her system.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah. Yeah. I was thinking, I've done cases before where there was a big question of whether or not there was a suicide, specifically one in the 1930s around the corner from my house that I did for a tenfold more wicked, where there was a young man and he left the car running, and it was 1935. He left a car running in the garage. And he said, well, I didn't even realize it was running. And, you know, I talked to somebody that said, no, you would realize it's running, it's loud, it's not a soft engine or anything. But, you know, I was thinking, how well educated were they in 1935? Do not close the door. Turn on your engine and let it run. I don't know. I do know that in 2021, when we had in Austin, just the most horrific set of snowstorms we've ever had that's paralyzed the city, and it killed a lot of people. And you Know, we were not prepared because we don't get snow down here. You know, our pipes are close to the surface, our electrical lines are above ground, and we, you know, we're just not. We're not built for that.

There were a lot of people, Paul.

Who would run little generators in the house. They were burning lacquered furniture in the house because they didn't know. We didn't know that that's what you're supposed to do. I did not, thank goodness. But. So I was just thinking, like, is she likely to know this is a bad idea? The chauffeur is insisting she wasn't drunk, and her friends are not saying she was drunk. So I don't know. Otherwise, what is the answer? There's no visible injuries, really, on her. If somebody locked her in the car and then turned on the gas, she would have been scraping and clawing and breaking glass and trying to get out. It just doesn't. Doesn't make sense unless she truly didn't know that this was a bad idea. Trying to get warm this way.

[Paul Holes]

And I lean. Probably a majority of the population, particularly back in 1935, probably weren't educated to the dangers of car exhaust and the carbon monoxide poisoning. So for me, I'm not surprised at all that she got into a vehicle, turned it on inside an enclosed garage. And the reason that she turned the vehicle on, from my perspective, is she just wanted to be warm that night. You know, she's in a mink coat, you know, so that. That kind of suggests that it was chilly.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I still don't understand all of these eyewitnesses and Martha Ford and all of this. I don't get it. Yeah, I don't get it. I don't get it. And she's famous. This is not just a normal person, a normal beautiful blonde walking down the street. But, you know, I think you're right if you're. I know you all often will go just back to the physical evidence, not eyewitness testimony and victim. But sometimes shit happens and people change up what they're doing, and you wouldn't expect it, but they do. But really, there doesn't seem to be any kind of real trauma when you look at it. So, you know, of course, we'll never know, but this is a pretty big mystery. This is one of those mysteries in Hollywood, you know, this is a woman who obviously was working very hard. She had a lot of promise. These films are so fun that she put out and she just could have just accelerated, you know, maybe she would get Married and you know, have a lot of things that were fulfilling to her. And it's just awful that this is the way it sounds. Like just a lack of knowledge, not knowing anything about this. I'm sure this did happen often, you know.

[Paul Holes]

Sure. Well, you know, after this, I think I'm gonna have to go and, and watch something on Thelma Todd.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

What did I look at? That was fun. There are a bunch of them, but I think it was the Tin Man. Yeah, it was the Tin man and it was cute. It was very Lucille. There's actually on that website there are some headsh with her co star where they're very Lucy and Ethel before Lucy and Ethel, so.

[Paul Holes]

Oh, very cool.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I like that. Yeah, I like telling stories about women. It's sad, particularly with Thelma Todd that she died. But you know, it's nice to see a woman who has a lot of independence and control and it's nice. Even though it ends badly, it's nice to be able to say these women have been here working so hard for so long. It's just good to see an example of it.

[Paul Holes]

Sure. Well, I really appreciate you bringing this case to me.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

You're welcome. I can pretty much guarantee we're not talking about Hollywood next week.

[Paul Holes]

Okay.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I not even pretty much. I can say definitely when I'm going to do another Hollywood Story. This just took about six months off me trying to figure this out. But. But we will have another compelling case next week.

[Paul Holes]

I'm looking forward to it.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Me too. Thanks, Paul.

[Paul Holes]

All right, thanks, Kate.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

This has been an exactly right production.

[Paul Holes]

For our sources and show notes go to exactlyrightmedia.com buriedbones sources.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Our senior producer is Alexis Amorosi.

[Paul Holes]

Research by Maren McClashan, Ali Elkin and Kate Winkler Dawson.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

[Paul Holes]

Our theme song is by Tom Breyfogle.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

[Paul Holes]

Executive produced by Karen Kilkenn Gareth, Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram.

And Facebook at Buried Bones Pod.

[Paul Holes]

Kate's most recent book, all that Is Wicked, A Gilded Age Story of Murder and the Race to Decode the Criminal Mind is available now.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

And Paul's best selling memoir, Unmasked My Life Solving America's Cold Cases is also available now.

[Paul Holes]

Listen to Buried bones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever. Wherever you get your podcasts.

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